Forma will cripple warframe

[Krankbert]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb (XBOX)YoungGunn82:

Lol. Right!! Forma dropping built would have zero impact on thier money making strategies. Because if it did they are having bigger problems.

Don’t get me wrong, I think Forma is definitely a notable source of income for them. That just doesn’t have any impact on my opinion of their design because my objective with video games is to play a game and have fun with it, not to make money for Pony Ma.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

All im saying is forma dropping built wont effect DE in any meaningful way in this game as it sits currently. Ivee seen 0 reason in thiss thread as to why it shouldn't. DE has a million ways tto make money. Dying on this hill in regards to building forma is making DE all the money is silly.

[Zimzala]

9 minutes ago, (XBOX)YoungGunn82 said:

All im saying is forma dropping built wont effect DE in any meaningful way in this game as it sits currently. Ivee seen 0 reason in thiss thread as to why it shouldn't. DE has a million ways tto make money. Dying on this hill in regards to building forma is making DE all the money is silly.

Stating what you think to be true as fact is also kind of silly, IMO.

None of us know how much cash DE makes form this anymore than we know how many people are actually 'unhappy' with the current arrangement.

No forum thread can 'prove' things about data to which the players do not have actual access.

This is why many of us prefer the way DE makes it's choices - based on player stats, not forum opinions.

All we have here in the thread are people that think they know better about a games fiscal situation when all they have is hearsay and random anecdotal data.

[Wolfdoggie]

Didn't read it all but I did read '75 forma at once' which certainly sounds like a system I wont even be participating in. The weapons will be thrown into storage and ignored, although I haven't touched the new Liches yet because I don't even like the Liches we already have cuz of their $&*^-around card system nor do I waste time taking the weapons to Lv.40 when there's no use to even have that much Forma on one and I'd be overriding polarities for no reason. If you don't like it then don't do it.

[GwinKyblood]

1 month farming u can buy infinite formas :) with farmed pls
_o/

[DogeManX]

19 hours ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

You've literally mentioned shortening it to 6 hours.  That's about A QUARTER of the time it currently takes.  I'd call cutting 75% of something off a "huge bump".

Your speculation about how it would or wouldn't affect their bottom line has no basis in any facts or data.  You've presented nothing to back your case, only your opinion... and opinions =/= facts.   If something were MORE profitable AND more "fun" (which is extremely subjective), DE would be doing it already... because that's how business works.

 

You're definitely right that a 75% cut is very huge and honestly I'd like to take that back. Obviously DE probably looked at forma build times and decided it was a good place to make money. However, I still stand by my point that uncommon forma drops should drop pre-built forma. It may cut into profits, but it makes sense from a design standpoint (rarer rewards are better) and wouldn't impact monetary gains that much (f2p farmers probably wouldn't buy as many forma packs + one built forma every few missions with low drop rate isn't enough to make or break most people).

 

So let me present a defined premise: 

 

Plague star should be run as an annual/set schedule event because it gives forma farming a huge boost and increases profit.

 

So the evidence is really right in front of us. The fact that they run plague star at all is an indication that it is profitable. If DE saw plague star cut into their profits, they obviously wouldn't run it. Now, I can't be sure where the profits come from, but it most likely correlates to player engagement.

 

Player engagement directly reflects on how profitable a game is. If you take a look at GTAV, the game does all that it can to push its Online mode. They've since made money grinding much easier (Cayo Perico heist) while also increasing player engagement by giving the community something they wanted (Most noteably the Tuners Update). While the money is easier to come by, by gathering more players, it snowballs into making GTAO very profitable. 

 

With DE, they're definitely using the Apple strategy of creating a problem and marketing a solution. The player is in need of Forma? Play Plague Star and get it. That increase in player activity definitely offsets the profit loss of forma sales in the long run. 

 

The primary basis in my theoretical increase on player engagement is based on FOMO and sunken cost fallacy. If you farmed for Tenet and Kuva weapons but are short forma, or heard about the forma sink for said weapons, you'll probably rush to play the event because you wouldn't want to waste the opportunity. However, now that you've played the event, you now are invested in whatever you need to do with that forma whether that is formaing your Tenet weapons or now gathering Tenet and kuva weapons to forma (making you spend more time in game and therefore more likely to spend money). 

 

Short term losses are often used in business to create long term relationships with customers. We see this with fast food restaurants and chain stores. Oftentimes it is more profitable to appease an unreasonable customer (by comping meals or coupons) because the decisions and opinions of one person will probably affect more people than just the single. In the inverse way, one person who is engaged in activity is more likely to draw more people in. 

 

While I can't present hard numbers (99% sure DE filings aren't public and even if they were wouldn't list the earnings per product). It seems that events that highly accelerate forma earnings are profitable. 

 

Now to extend that premise to my hypothesis:

 

Lowering timers on forma may create more player activity..

 

If the logic that is applied to plague star (which is proven by the fact that DE bothers to run the event) could also extend to shortening forma timers on a lesser scale. But I don't have enough evidence for that (Subjective polling would also suggest that nobody will turn down free stuff meaning polled evidence is out of the question).

 

I hope the argument is structured enough that you can at least believe that it might work out. Again, if DE

 

had public documents of profits, I'd definitely use those to draw a better conclusion. But this is the best that I have.

 

19 hours ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

You absolutely CAN.  I've almost 2300 hours in just in-mission time in the game, and I've sorted through almost every weapon it has to offer.  I can tell the "feel" of the weapon right away... the rest is just basic MATHS.  But, I do believe SneakyErvin said it best:

I still disagree with this. 30 capacity is just not enough to really get a feel for anything. I'm sure you could theory craft around weapons but it really isn't the same as using it especially for melee weapons and their stances (that make or break the weapon). For most people "getting a feel" for the weapon means putting serration on the weapon and heading to hydron for 20 minutes and then dumping it. You can get a general feel for how it shoots, but I'd very much so disagree that it will give you a feel for the weapon's potential.

 

[DogeManX]

20 hours ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

The problem with that is it would open DE up to a WHOLE lot of liability/legal issues.

They do not OWN or EMPLOY any of those community-created websites/apps.  Therefore, they cannot control what content is featured, what ads are played, etc.

IF they ENDORSE those apps/sites, and the content suddenly takes a turn for the worse, DE is then partially on the line for anything bad their players are exposed to through those apps by way of endorsement.  Yes, they can argue "Well, we had a disclaimer..." but it creates bad press and expense court appearances that slow things down and hurt their PR. 

Oops yeah. I almost forgot about Guides of Lotus. My bad. 

[SneakyErvin]

20 hours ago, ZeroX4 said:

Im old enough to remember when ALL PC and playstation games came 1st as demos/trail versions and that was how you decide if you care to buy it or not

Now most games looks like games from google play
Awesome trailer awesome graphic awesome crap shown and when you try it turns ot it is worse than most browser games

I think we went wrong way with allowing devs to make idiots out of us so easily

But today we have internetz we are able to check how game looks how game play and we can just show our middle finger before shoving our $$$ into any game

Those were the days. I overplayed so many demo games for playstation back in the day. Plus I remember going to the local video rental place and talking games with the owner and then renting a bunch over the weekend and playing through them. I cant remember how many times I rented Alien and Ace Combat from that place.

And yeah, nowdays we get very questionable S#&$, or turds that are very polished early game just to take you beyond the refund window. Like Marvels Avengers, it had a wonderful story and then when you got past that you ran into all the issues of the game. Or companies that ride on their fame like CD-Projekt. What the gaming industry could need are people with a mindset like the DE devs, or David Brevik, people that are passionate and understand players. I mean sure, we wont all agree on everything DE does, because obviously we have different taste. But atleast DE follows their passion and if something breaks they are often very quick to hotfix it. While you look at other games out there, sometimes it can take a month to fix something that would take an hour or a day to fix in WF to make the players happy.

And looking now at DICE and EA, we can see some passionate talk directed towards the potential community. Sadly, even if they talk as if they wanna hump their game and introduce mechanics so people can play the Battlefield of their dreams, there is likely a 99% chance it will not be at all what they describe it as and just be smoke and mirrors to sell the game through nostalgia.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

On 2021-08-31 at 5:56 AM, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

 

You've literally mentioned shortening it to 6 hours.  That's about A QUARTER of the time it currently takes.  I'd call cutting 75% of something off a "huge bump".

Your speculation about how it would or wouldn't affect their bottom line has no basis in any facts or data.  You've presented nothing to back your case, only your opinion... and opinions =/= facts.   If something were MORE profitable AND more "fun" (which is extremely subjective), DE would be doing it already... because that's how business works.

 

Again, this is just your opinion.  Show the facts/data that backs your argument.  Show comparative data showcasing retention rates based on forma usage, build timers, plat purchases, etc.  If you can't, then your speculation is moot.  You've made the claim, so the burden of proof is on you.

 

It's not defending a terrible game design choice. YOU'RE the ones calling it that.  The fact that it's free means they've asked NOTHING FROM YOU, and given you the FULL GAME and ALL DLC, past, present, AND future, for FREE... and they have small inconveniences that you can bypass FOR FREE with time, or for a VERY small plat purchase. (35 plat isn't even $3 USD, and that's assuming you PAY for it and don't just trade.)

If you paid $60+ for the game and the game STILL demanded MORE money (like so many do... I'm lookin' at you every-bandai-namco-game), just to play the content you PAID for to the fullest... that WOULD be an objectively different situation.  But this ain't that.


If I gave you a FREE slice of pizza and it was juuust "okay", 5/10, you'd either eat it or toss it and move on.  

If you PAID ME for the pizza, and it still sucked, that'd be a different story...  because now you're out the money AND you got a shoddy product.

I'd also argue Warframe is NOT a "shoddy product", either.  It's a F2P game, arguably one of the best on that business model, and it's survived over 8+ years, has put out a TON of content over those years, and continues to grow.  Games with "terrible design" don't survive that long, and THRIVE, even.  May not be YOUR cup of tea, but clearly it's good enough for plenty of people.

 

You absolutely CAN.  I've almost 2300 hours in just in-mission time in the game, and I've sorted through almost every weapon it has to offer.  I can tell the "feel" of the weapon right away... the rest is just basic MATHS.  But, I do believe SneakyErvin said it best:

 

Thank. You.  

1. That's a crappy and dishonest misrepresentation of DE's team, and you KNOW it.  They have a parent company, yes... All companies do.  That doesn't make them some big evil baddie..   As for whether the game is "fun for all the players"... it's CLEARLY fun enough that it's lasted 8+ years on a completely FREE to play model.   YOU may not like it, but that's fine..  not everyone on Earth has to.  Just enough to keep the lights on.  And they are.

Also, that's not at ALL what they other Tenno was arguing.  "Building Forma", and monetizing time-gates wouldn't need to be a THING if the game COST MONEY UPFRONT.  But since it doesn't, it needs to recoup expenses in other ways... like time-gating to create pressure to make purchases.  It's not complicated.

 

And so we cycle back to Page 1, pretty much...  This circular arguing is getting us nowhere and, quite honestly, it's exhausting... and annoying.

NOBODY SAID you had to max rank all Tenet/Kuva weapons.  NO ONE.  Not even DE.  You can squeeze a measly extra 1000 xp out of 'em if you do.  The Tenet/Kuva system isn't for new players, in any case... it's for people who have more resources than they know what to do with to have something to dump 'em in to.  Same as the Helminth.  

I, personally, have only ever fully forma'd Tenet/Kuva weapons I either LIKED, or was bored and wanted to push my mastery a bit.  I'm almost MR30... and I still have PLENTY of other stuff to master ahead of Tenet/Kuva weapons that'll get me there.  

You act like it's impossible to ignore Tenet/Kuva weapons at 5 forma, but it's not.  MR30 was possible well before these systems were even fully realized. There's no need to squeeze the MR out of 'em unless you WANT to,, and then it's a YOU thing.  

And as time goes on, there's even LESS reason to fully Forma these weapons...as MR30 will become EASIER AND EASIER to attain with more weapons/primes released.

Also, PS is coming back AND bringing forma... so what's the issue?  You're not making any sense.

1) i can add EMPHASIS to random WORDS by making SOME words CAPS too but im not gonna do that because i think its annoying  so maybe not lecture other people about what is annoying?

2) just because somebody else made a point that means nobody else can share that point or agree with it? Lol no.

3) i dont know why you're white knighting so ludicrously hard. Saying "you know, i just think 1 thing is obnoxious" doesnt MEAN that im making DIGITAL EXTREMES out to be nazis or something and even if i was, i dont see why youre so emotionally invested in defending them. 

 

4) hammering the point that there are costs that need to be recouped because it doesnt cost money up front doesnt mean blank check, carte blanche, any conceivable time gate, grind, microtransaction, or any other monetization strategy is 100% perfect and nobody is allowed to criticize it. 

5) if im not mistaken, the comment about plague star being gone was before they announced it coming back. 

 

And if it was after the announcement, fine. You got me there. My bad.

 

6) "NOBODY SAID YOU GOTTA MAX EVERYTHING REEEEE"

I have spent hundreds of dollars on this game and hundreds of hours in trade chat.

Even if forma took 1 second to craft and was free from the market place i still find it obnoxious i have to level so many weapons 5 times to get all the mastery out of it.

I cant think of one good reason for this being a thing. 

Its repetitive. Its grindy. And it feels unnecessary and arbitrary when for years the standard has been you just gotta get it to 30 once and then thats it.

Why not make it 10 forma? Why not 6? Why not 20? Who decided hey you know what lets make it take 5 times as long to get the mastery out of it players will love that. 

And dont try to defend it by saying "but muh capacity" when they could have added that as a bonus anyway, and its not necessary. 

Nobody is gonna hold a gun to your head and make you do it but i could say the same thing about playing the game at all whenever anybody says anything critical of the game period.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

I agree with your main point and disagree with your clarification.  The polarity system is dated, overly restricting, and far too investment heavy.  If there were more reliable ways to get built forma as a reward, and it could be built faster that would be great, but the system itself is still bad.

You mentioned Sevagoth and that's a real highlighting of the issue.  My build was 16 forma, including an Umbra forma just to save me on regular forma cost.  If instead we had a point system where you still had to apply a forma, then go through the ridiculously time investment heavy process of releveling it it would at least be worth it.  Imagine having stuck like 6 forma on Sevagoth's main form, and you now have 8 polarity "points" (6 from forma, 2 innate.) where you can put any 8 polarities you want on each loadout and swap them around whenever you want.  Then those points also apply to his second form and you no longer have the ridiculous requirement of putting forma on that as well.  You still have heavy resource and time investment, and you aren't locked into a build just because you invested in something.

That eats into their bottom line too much though, so they'll never change it from how it is now.  If the deaf ears we keep getting on several issues like this and the things they keep releasing are any indication, I wouldn't be shocked if they get even greedier in the future.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

On 2021-08-31 at 12:35 PM, (XBOX)YoungGunn82 said:

DE has a bunch of ways tto make money. Dying on this hill in regards to building taking 23 hours for 1 forma is making DE a lot of money is silly.

 

[Lutesque]

On 2021-08-23 at 2:36 AM, DogeManX said:

As more content is released, forma build time should be lowered. For new players, the amount of time needed to build forma just piles on way too quickly with all the content in warframe. And with the release of galvanized mods, weapons that could squeak by on 3 or 4 forma now need more. If nothing is done about this, newer players and players in the midgame will get bored waiting for their in game timers and drop the game. The entire time gated crafting system has turned many of my friends off this game and the stacking forma costs will do the same.

Well obviously time gating is going to turn away some amount of players....

But I don't think the expansion of the Forma Grind is going to exacerbate it any more because new players don't try to grab all the Shines at once...

What new players do is build the "Best" Weapons that will eventually allow them to grab all the other weapons...

These are the "Gateway Goodies" of Warframe...Mesa, Bramma and Nukor.... They build those and then use those To get Everything Else....

It's what they've been doing all this time and it's what they're going to keep doing regardless of whatever else DE adds into to the Treasure Chest.

Atleast that's my theory... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

On 2021-08-23 at 2:36 AM, DogeManX said:

DE really needs to give us some way to build forma faster.

If I had a Credit for everytime I read this exact phrase.... 

Out of all the money traps that are in Warframe I would have to say the Forma Grind is DE's most important one.... It's so useful and versatile and even somewhat easy to obtain... The problem... Is Actually building it.... 😈 

It wouldn't surprise me if players have dumped alot of Platinum into rushing Forma Builds or even outright buying bundles in the Market..  it's DE'S best platinum Sink.

 

So naturally forma is never going to have any sort of quality of life Changes.... The only thing we ever got was the 1 Hour Shave from the Build time.... Well lap it up because we won't get anymore than that. 😛

On 2021-08-31 at 7:35 PM, (XBOX)YoungGunn82 said:

All im saying is forma dropping built wont effect DE in any meaningful way in this game as it sits currently. Ivee seen 0 reason in thiss thread as to why it shouldn't. DE has a million ways tto make money. Dying on this hill in regards to building forma is making DE all the money is silly.

Well yeah... Sure it's not making most of the money.... But I think they'll take whatever they can get.... Especially since we are the main reason why Forma Acquisition works the way it does...

If it bothered us so much we simply wouldn't put up with it.... And yet we do.... So why should DE Changing anything ? As far as their concerned... We voted by participating in this Farce 😛

9 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

If the deaf ears we keep getting on several issues like this and the things they keep releasing are any indication, I wouldn't be shocked if they get even greedier in the future

It's pretty much guaranteed at this point... I certainly expect nothing less.... 

 

[Flannoit]

On 2021-08-22 at 6:25 PM, RichardKam said:

*inhale*

WHY would you forma EVERY kuva and tenet weapon 5 times over!?

Seriously, unless you want to install focus lens on every single one of them or you are a compulsory perfectionist, otherwise I see no gameplay reason to forma them 5 times. 

Each forma will reduce your mod drain while giving you extra capacity. Therefore it actually requires LESS forma to fully build a kuva or tenet variant compared to normal weapons. 

Late and someone probably already said this, but:

Mastery Rank.

That's 10 levels of mastery EXP per weapon. Plus eventually you'll run out of stuff to do anyways and end up having to max them, so you'll need to forma those out ANYWAYS at some point.

[Nexeroff]

There are economics to consider, yeah forma is a pain if you are relying on forma you build then it seems time gated and that's never fun, time gates are annoying.

However, there has to be a way for DE to remove plat from the game to maintain a healthy game economy, forma is one of the most useful ways of removing plat from the market.  This keeps inflation down so that even knew players with a little plat can buy from the market those items they need to advance.

I am always building forma, when playing I am never not building forma.  It's never enough, so I buy a lot of forma not so much for weapons anymore or frames, mostly building out a dojo currently, but I do buy a lot of those 3 pack forma.

Of course I would prefer not having to buy anything and just keep stacking plat, but it seems it's so easy to make plat, that it's never been a problem buying forma.  So I am constantly building forma, and constantly buying forma, it's never been a problem for me, and I have always had forma when I need it.  I do not buy plat with cash, all the plat I spend in game I earn in game. 

Perhaps it's just a matter of making plat that matters.  I know this is not going to be popular, but I would prefer the forma and the requirements for it on weapons, frames and dojo to remain as it is to maintain a healthy economy and a market that doesn't suffer from massive inflation swings.

This is the real rub, to maintain a healthy economy and free market there comes with these things they requirement to remove a certain amount of plat from the economy.  This is currently done when people purchase items from the platinum market, when they buy skins or resources or forma, etc, from the platinum market.  If you remove the need for people to spend plat to buy forma, then there will be a need to create a platinum sink in something else, because regardless of what platinum is spent on there is a requirement that an equal amount of platinum is purchased with real world money, and spent in game to remove it from the economy.

We could suggest that less people who buy platinum with cash then reduces the need for platinum to be removed from the economy, but then this affects the real world evolution of the game itself, less cash flow, less development, less new content, less new players and then more decline.  So it's not just a healthy in game economy and player based market that is a concern.  There is also a need for people to constantly buy platinum with cash, this is why there are a certain number of platinum discounts offered in daily rewards, to encourage the purchase of platinum, it's a tricky balance.

So by removing the time gate on forma, you also remove the need for people to buy forma and thus the removal of platinum from the economy, this would result in a glut of platinum which would result in a dramatic increase in the price of everything in the player marketplace.  This would affect new players who have yet to earn plat negatively, they would then need to buy more plat thus adding to the problem by injecting even more platinum into a broken inflated economy and thus, again, raises prices in the player marketplace.  DE would then have to raise the prices in the platinum marketplace in an attempt to remove more platinum from the game which again requires people to buy more platinum and on and on and on.

If we are looking at this logically, the same number of people will be required to spend the same amount of plat that they are spending on forma now, on something else.  So the OPs suggestion would come with a requirement that people spend the same plat they spend currently on forma, on other items.

It's better to leave the system currently in place alone, and deal with what we know rather than create an unknown that might affect us more negatively. 

[Lutesque]

40 minutes ago, Nexeroff said:

 

This is the real rub, to maintain a healthy economy and free market there comes with these things they requirement to remove a certain amount of plat from the economy.  This is currently done when people purchase items from the platinum market, when they buy skins or resources or forma, etc, from the platinum market.  If you remove the need for people to spend plat to buy forma, then there will be a need to create a platinum sink in something else, because regardless of what platinum is spent on there is a requirement that an equal amount of platinum is purchased with real world money, and spent in game to remove it from the economy.

That's The Reality Of The Situation...and that's why I never complain about it....you know.... It is what it is....

Besides.... I'm far too busy complaining about other things to B#&#@ about Forma anyway...

43 minutes ago, Nexeroff said:

 

It's better to leave the system currently in place alone, and deal with what we know rather than create an unknown that might affect us more negatively. 

What I would be most curious about is.... Would DE be willing to tell players about the Best Practices of Hoarding Forma ?

My assumption is player's spending habits wouldn't change but the perception of the Forma Grind would be more positive... But I could be wrong.... Maybe if players knew they could hoard this stuff from the get go... Then they wouldn't rush their Blueprints as often....

[(PSN)voidwraiths]

On 2021-08-23 at 1:36 AM, DogeManX said:

TLDR: Queenpins update released weapons needing 75 forma at once (12 Tenet and 3 Kuva). That's about 2 and a half months of just straight building forma. There are 19 Kuva weapons and 12 Tenet weapons meaning the total amount of forma needed to farm for queenpins and liches are 155 forma.

As more content is released, forma build time should be lowered. For new players, the amount of time needed to build forma just piles on way too quickly with all the content in warframe. And with the release of galvanized mods, weapons that could squeak by on 3 or 4 forma now need more. If nothing is done about this, newer players and players in the midgame will get bored waiting for their in game timers and drop the game. The entire time gated crafting system has turned many of my friends off this game and the stacking forma costs will do the same.

<---Source of my pain

 

When I first started the game, there was so much content for me to explore. At the center of the content was the gear unlocked from it and at the center of the gear was the forma to polarize the slots. Grinding from MR 0-30, there were a lot of weapons that required a single forma to build, and while there was a lot of stuff to farm, eventually I built enough forma to build it all.

 

But the newer updates really pile onto the forma cost of the game. In the older updates, you'd need maybe 10 forma at most for something like a prime vault and if there was a big update like fortuna, you'd need more, but because the content wasn't dropped all at once, you could realistically have forma building on the side as new content comes out to keep a stockpile. 

 

Before queenpins, I had saved 70 forma after building for months anticipating a new update. But as sevagoth released with 3 moddable configurations with very few innate polarities, that ate into the stockpile I had. But I still wasn't worried as I was sitting on 50 forma. But when the update came out, my stockpile evaporated and the only solution was to either wait a month to max out all the weapons or to buy the forma bundles. 

 

I really love playing warframe, but I cannot imagine how the experience is for newer players and having to wait 23 hours to decide between putting a polarity on a weapon or to use it to build something else. DE really needs to give us some way to build forma faster.

 

Please tell me your thoughts. Maybe my MRL1 mind is just too out of touch with the game to think about it.

 

 

 

EDIT: I should've been more clear that my problem isn't with forma itself but rather with the time it takes for it to build. While you can f2p farm 300 forma bps, it'll still take around ~300 days to build it. If I had to make a suggestion on how to make it better, I'd just make the uncommon forma in relics built. That way the uncommon forma aren't just a feelsbad for drops and there's a way to directly farm for forma. 

 

I dont think forma is a pay to win system either. Warframe is really good with keeping out p2w systems. It seems tencent isn't influencing them too much. But there's definitely potential for forma to become a pay to win system with just a few changes. 

 

Also apologies for the clickbaity title. It gets people to click onto the thread and promotes more discussion. I know forma won't actually cripple warframe lol.

 

EDIT 2 (8/30): I saw a lot of discussion on how changing forma would impact the bottom line of Warframe and take away a major income source. However, I think if forma gains are boosted by a little, it would actually make warframe more money.

I'll sum up my thoughts in 3 points:

1. More forma means more weapons and warframes people will mod and want to keep leading to more slot purchases (cannot be f2p earned except by special events)

2. More forma will promote more polarizations which increases the playtime of the average player (If you have weapons to level, you're more likely to play longer)

3. It'll create a more satisfying experience when using weapons (more forma = potential for bigger numbers which makes weapons more satisfying)

Point 1 directly deals with monetization and how income flow will be either unchanged or bolstered through alternative sales. Points 2 and 3 deal with player engagement. In a multiplayer game, engagement is one of the most important things to keep up. A multiplayer game with a lack of community severely cripples the game and its appeal. Higher number of people playing will mean that more people will play with them and make the game feel alive and vibrant.

Again I am not saying forma should flow abundantly,  rather, I'd like for it to make a small but noticeable difference in the day to day warframe experience.

A principle of something perfectly designed is that you won't notice it. The forma system is well designed as it is, but there are flaws and annoyances people can notice. If those can be ironed out, it'll lead to a healthier warframe experience.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.
What gets me about forma'ing for ranks beyond 30 is how boring it is to go from 0 to 32, 34, 36, 38, 40, etc. I would much prefer forma'ing a rank 30 weapon capable of higher ranks simply put it at Rank 30 and let you just progress from 30-32 at a slower rate of XP. It feels wholly unnecessary to have to grind from 0 again, ESPECIALLY with Necramechs or Kuva Archguns in particular who are a slog to level up as is without relying on leeching your squad in a Void Storm Survival or wasting your plat on a Gravimag to bring it to Hydron or Helene.

As for the timers, 24 hours has always seemed somewhat fair to me, but as the need for Forma increases I would be pretty content having it be the same as the average weapon or Warframe component - 12 hours.

[CrazyCatLad]

On 2021-08-22 at 9:25 PM, RichardKam said:

*inhale*

WHY would you forma EVERY kuva and tenet weapon 5 times over!?

Seriously, unless you want to install focus lens on every single one of them or you are a compulsory perfectionist, otherwise I see no gameplay reason to forma them 5 times. 

Each forma will reduce your mod drain while giving you extra capacity. Therefore it actually requires LESS forma to fully build a kuva or tenet variant compared to normal weapons. 

Also, you shouldn't have to forma a kingpin weapon 5x to be able to a lens on it.

Just silly grind

[SneakyErvin]

One thing people seem to forget when talking about forma accessibility is that the game isnt stopping you from farming as much forma as you like since you can grind fissures without limitations. That means prime parts, prime parts means potential platinum, platinum means in-game market purchases and in-game market means forma bundles.

And if fissures doesnt float your boat you can always find a mod that sells well and grind that if you wanna stockpile forma outside the 23h window.

[Xantelian]

I'd be ok with the 24hr crafting time if you could build more than one at a time. One Forma per day unless you skip with plat is pretty pathetic when the vast majority of frames and weapons need at least 2 or 3 each and when you have 50 frames excluding primes and hundreds of weapons... yeah. It's very stingy. 

[BethTheBean]

On 2021-08-22 at 8:36 PM, DogeManX said:

TLDR: Queenpins update released weapons needing 75 forma at once (12 Tenet and 3 Kuva). That's about 2 and a half months of just straight building forma. There are 19 Kuva weapons and 12 Tenet weapons meaning the total amount of forma needed to farm for queenpins and liches are 155 forma.

As more content is released, forma build time should be lowered. For new players, the amount of time needed to build forma just piles on way too quickly with all the content in warframe. And with the release of galvanized mods, weapons that could squeak by on 3 or 4 forma now need more. If nothing is done about this, newer players and players in the midgame will get bored waiting for their in game timers and drop the game. The entire time gated crafting system has turned many of my friends off this game and the stacking forma costs will do the same.

<---Source of my pain

 

When I first started the game, there was so much content for me to explore. At the center of the content was the gear unlocked from it and at the center of the gear was the forma to polarize the slots. Grinding from MR 0-30, there were a lot of weapons that required a single forma to build, and while there was a lot of stuff to farm, eventually I built enough forma to build it all.

 

But the newer updates really pile onto the forma cost of the game. In the older updates, you'd need maybe 10 forma at most for something like a prime vault and if there was a big update like fortuna, you'd need more, but because the content wasn't dropped all at once, you could realistically have forma building on the side as new content comes out to keep a stockpile. 

 

Before queenpins, I had saved 70 forma after building for months anticipating a new update. But as sevagoth released with 3 moddable configurations with very few innate polarities, that ate into the stockpile I had. But I still wasn't worried as I was sitting on 50 forma. But when the update came out, my stockpile evaporated and the only solution was to either wait a month to max out all the weapons or to buy the forma bundles. 

 

I really love playing warframe, but I cannot imagine how the experience is for newer players and having to wait 23 hours to decide between putting a polarity on a weapon or to use it to build something else. DE really needs to give us some way to build forma faster.

 

Please tell me your thoughts. Maybe my MRL1 mind is just too out of touch with the game to think about it.

 

 

 

EDIT: I should've been more clear that my problem isn't with forma itself but rather with the time it takes for it to build. While you can f2p farm 300 forma bps, it'll still take around ~300 days to build it. If I had to make a suggestion on how to make it better, I'd just make the uncommon forma in relics built. That way the uncommon forma aren't just a feelsbad for drops and there's a way to directly farm for forma. 

 

I dont think forma is a pay to win system either. Warframe is really good with keeping out p2w systems. It seems tencent isn't influencing them too much. But there's definitely potential for forma to become a pay to win system with just a few changes. 

 

Also apologies for the clickbaity title. It gets people to click onto the thread and promotes more discussion. I know forma won't actually cripple warframe lol.

 

EDIT 2 (8/30): I saw a lot of discussion on how changing forma would impact the bottom line of Warframe and take away a major income source. However, I think if forma gains are boosted by a little, it would actually make warframe more money.

I'll sum up my thoughts in 3 points:

1. More forma means more weapons and warframes people will mod and want to keep leading to more slot purchases (cannot be f2p earned except by special events)

2. More forma will promote more polarizations which increases the playtime of the average player (If you have weapons to level, you're more likely to play longer)

3. It'll create a more satisfying experience when using weapons (more forma = potential for bigger numbers which makes weapons more satisfying)

Point 1 directly deals with monetization and how income flow will be either unchanged or bolstered through alternative sales. Points 2 and 3 deal with player engagement. In a multiplayer game, engagement is one of the most important things to keep up. A multiplayer game with a lack of community severely cripples the game and its appeal. Higher number of people playing will mean that more people will play with them and make the game feel alive and vibrant.

Again I am not saying forma should flow abundantly,  rather, I'd like for it to make a small but noticeable difference in the day to day warframe experience.

A principle of something perfectly designed is that you won't notice it. The forma system is well designed as it is, but there are flaws and annoyances people can notice. If those can be ironed out, it'll lead to a healthier warframe experience.

* In the last Devstream, they did mention they're looking into decreasing forge times, since that's been a topic that's been popping up/asked by players for awhile now. I doubt there will be anything done by the year is out, simply because they're wrapped up in pushing out the New War.

Personally, it wouldn't hurt DE to throw full-built formas into existing loot tables for OS, EOS, Gram Void, Arbs rewards, SP rewards, Railjack / Void Storms, Profit-Taker, Orb Mother, and the 3 Eidolons. 

Alerts should come back. Separate from NW, and alternating with Baro. 

Baro Week

Alert Week - reactor x credits
                     catalyst x credits
                     forma x credits

These would be full-built, of course.

HomeTime could knock out one for their plat draws, for a forma 3-pack draw. The Devstream could do the same.  (  15m - plat, 30m - plat, 45m - forma 3-pack, end - PA access )

There could be something for Twitch drops, but they don't work have the time.


* Personally, Tenent and Kuva weapons deserve the 5 forma needed to hit R40 / max affinity. They're basically the prime versions of weapons that aren't Tenno ( though DE likes to forget their own lore, exp - Helios is corpus and designed by Alad V ).

They're better than their own base weapons, better than weapons that have been primed, and better than Zaws / Kitguns. 

They have become the go-to weapons for Liches, Sisters, Arbs, Steel Path, Profit-Taker / Eidolon hunting.






 

 

[Lutesque]

2 hours ago, Xantelian said:

I'd be ok with the 24hr crafting time if you could build more than one at a time. One Forma per day unless you skip with plat is pretty pathetic when the vast majority of frames and weapons need at least 2 or 3 each and when you have 50 frames excluding primes and hundreds of weapons... yeah. It's very stingy. 

But if that were the case then the Craft Time... Whatever it maybe will be pointless....

For example.... Imagine Forma took 48 Hours to craft... But you could craft an Infinite amount of them Simultaneously.......

You could just just stock pile... Let's say 10 Forma and start all of them Simultaneously and 2 Days later you would have all 10.... 

Given how practical it is get both the Blueprints and Resources You wouldn't ever have to concern yourself with Craft Times.... Which means no Spending Platinum on Rushing and Bundles....

Which is a Big NO NO from DE's Perspective...

 

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

On 2021-09-04 at 6:42 PM, Flannoit said:

Late and someone probably already said this, but:

Mastery Rank.

That's 10 levels of mastery EXP per weapon. Plus eventually you'll run out of stuff to do anyways and end up having to max them, so you'll need to forma those out ANYWAYS at some point.

1. 10 levels of mastery is only 1000 Affinity.  ANY weapon will get you 3x that...  without 5 forma invested.  Any frame will get you 6x that without a forma invested... which leads to...

2. If you've "run out of things to do anyway", then where is the rush, the fire, the NEED to get there in any quick manner?  If you're sitting at the top, with everything else done, ALREADY at LMR1.... then you don't NEED that extra affinity, you just WANT it.  So, take your time, get to it when you get to it.

In any case, at no point in time is the extra 1000 affinity *necessary*.

[Marvelous_A]

I'd recommend you to just not spend 5 formas on every Kuva/Tenet weapon. It's not worth it both economy-wise and performance-wise. Personally I use rank 8 version of R10 mods, and use 60/60 instead of the 90 elements to get most performance/cost ratio, most weapons will be ready for use with merely 3 polarized slots maybe 4 with a max rank riven. Most Kuva/Tenet are not good enough to dedicate 5 formas outside of the petty MR points.