Possible Grendel buffs PART 2

[McBrainPrime]

So this is part 2 to my "Possible Grendel buffs" post the reason why is because those buffs were to benefit me and the other solo Grendel players. This post will be to benefit the entire community so that Grendel will be at least a viable option for some full squad missions. You may first wonder "why am I aloud to site suggestions for his possible buffs?" Well its because Grendel was my 3rd ever warframe and I've been using him to go through the entire star chart so I know what make's him bad and also good if you are doubting me  just do /profile. Now to the changes

 

Passive- instead of armor his passive will give him 50% health for each enemy in his belly.

Reason: this passive is to synergize with hunters adrenaline/ rage and his new nourished armor. since these are going to be Grendel's main ways to gain energy while his 1 is active his passive should be something that helps instead. since these mods benefit from high health and low armor since the lower your armor and the higher health you have the more energy you get since the energy you gain is I believe calculated after the damage you've taken has been reduced.

 

Feast- Feast will no longer increase in damage the more enemies Grendel spits out but his energy drain will be reduced by 25%

Reason: Grendel's feast ability was his signature ability since his current gameplay is literally just eat and spit with his 1 so i decided to change that by transferring its damage to regurgitate to justify the reduction of his energy drain and i probably don't have to give a reason for reducing his energy drain.

 

Nourish- Nourished armor will now give 20% damage reduction and energy conversion at base strength that also extends to his teammates. Recasting any of the nourish buffs while they are active will increase the power strength of the buff by 2% per cast (this cannot be affected by power strength but there is no strength cap), this will only last for as long as that specific buff is still active. the heal on nourish will also heal allies now

Reason: I'm not even going to try and sugar coat this Grendel's buffs are underwhelming you will rarely feel them unless your using his nourished strike to proc viral. So i decided to add a form of scaling to his buffs (a form of scaling that i believe has never been seen on a buff ability before), This is because I believe Grendel's concept is the frame of momentum which means he gets better the longer the missions last like a boulder rolling down a hill. And lastly I just wanted to give nourished armor something to do and so that people who don't want to use hunter's adrenaline or rage a sustainable source of energy. and as for the shared heal I am not sure if it applies to allies but i don't think it does so I'm including it to give Grendel more support capabilities.

 

Regurgitate- Regurgitate will now spit out all the enemies in your stomach into one ball of contorted flesh when you hold the button. The damage will gain the same scaling as the old feast and its explosion radius on hit will increase by 1 meter per enemy (does not scale with range mods). however its initial explosion radius will be lowered to 4 meters at base.

Reason: regurgitate was useless... and was suppose to be his main damage tool until a youtuber's suggestion made it into Grendel's first round of buffs and made it useless... so i am now making regurgitate a cannon of contorted flesh which sounds more fun than a shotgun of partially digested meat and bones. 

 

Pulverize-  Pulverize now temporarily stops Grendel energy drain from feast for 15 seconds at base duration, when the duration ends Grendel will slowly resume top returning to his regular energy drain rate.

Reason; the reason why I made pulverize a duration ability is so that Grendel will benefit from energy sources that he will usually not gain when a channeling ability is active so sources like zenurik energy dashes or energy pizzas. The reason that i also made it a channeling ability after the duration is so that players will not be forced out of pulverize just incase their using the catapult augment to most around the map. I also added the halting of his energy drain so that he can fully utilize his energy into building up his nourished stacks
 

I may change some parts of this in the future to clarify some points that i may have but these are my final suggestions on Grendel. since i have noticed that some people do like his design and his buffing potential but were just disgusted by his hunger for energy so i hope these changes will bring different play styles and will hopefully make his concept of being the warframe of momentum shine. 

Also here's a deluxe skin to further justify doing the rework ( https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/g40875/let_us_not_forget_this_unofficial_deluxe_skin_for/ ) sadly I don't know the original artist so I hope they see this post. Wait never i think i did ( https://www.artstation.com/artwork/Yak4KY ).

Updates and mostly clarifications: 

Ok so i let this forum post sit for a little while to see how people would react to it and i can see that most of you are not getting the point of what type of tank grendel was suppose to be, since i see allot of you thinking that removing the "no energy from energy pads and aura" is a good fix but no.

grendel isnt a tank who can do their job just by standing on one place and going afk like inaros instead he is an active tank sure hes not as active as nidus but he also has more hp than nidus so grendel is basically an in between of nidus and inaros. a really tanky frame that doesn't need to rely on his abilities much but his abilities do give him a decent boost in damage and survivability but they do not give as much of a benefit as nidus' stacks nor are they as easy to maintain.

Nidus' stacks can allow him to have high hp regen, high damage reduction, great damage through augments, and even cheat death on the other side Inaros, he has a lot of hp which aids him allot in his survivability.

And then in the middle there is MY grendel, eating enemies can give him hp that can rival inaros but that hp needs to be maintained by watching your energy like nidus' stacks, My grendel gets a damage and damage reduction buff but you need to build it up to make it more effective similar to nidus' stacks with his augment but again this is not as power as nidus' because for grendel you need to watch his buff's duration and you energy bar. 

So in conclusion MY grendel has limitless potential for his buffs and his hp but the only thing thats making it not over powered is the question on whether or not you can REACH that high potential. So grendel will be a warframe in which you will have to work hard in order reach his potential not like mesa where you can just sit there invisible occasionally refreshing your 4 and shredding down enemies or even octavia where you can literally just put 1 and 2 down and then open your phone and relax and also occasionally refresh them. 

My grendel is an active team buffer who can also self sustain with infinite potential for damage and survivability. maintenance is your only wall.

also to yall complaining about ability wheel being "inconvenient" your brain has probably, if not definitely, been melted by the using the monkey too much if you think that looking at the icons on the bottom right side of the screen is "too inconvenient" then you've been too spoiled and your parents should probably stop giving you candy once in a while.

 

[FishMcCool]

Honestly, I'm a lot happier with the current energy drain and current Feast than your propositions which would force one to use the 3 to get the same damage scaling we have now from a single ability. His current 1 is what makes him absolutely shine in Steel Path. And imho, energy drain is more than manageable once you build up for Hunter's Adrenaline which his base stats are excellent for.

Using 2 to make him more of a team player would be nice, 4 I'm not sure as I rarely see a point apart from Metroid Pinball memes and rolling to extraction (maybe some aoe friendly team effect on slams?), and 3 is prime fodder for helminth-tuning the frame (I use fire blast for the serious build for quick armour strip). Moving his scaling to 3 while obviously maintaining 1 as mandatory would be a net waste of an ability slot imho.

[McBrainPrime]

On 2021-08-26 at 4:01 PM, FishMcCool said:

Honestly, I'm a lot happier with the current energy drain and current Feast than your propositions which would force one to use the 3 to get the same damage scaling

reason why i transferred it to his 3 is because his 3 was suppose to be for damage and his first was meant to be a depuff and cc ability this new first is meant to synergize with other warframe abilities by giving a really good way for allies to deal damage and with grendel not killing the enemies when he spits them out you can have really good synergy with a negative range pilfering khora or hydroid but if you dont like these buffs please remember they are meant to make him more interesting so you can still do the usual eat and spit strategy and you could replace pulverize instead of regurgitate. also i would like your opinion on the change to his passive and also about the deluxe skin (also btw in my post on the "possible grendel buffs" part 1 i actually kept the damage on his first and that kit was meant for solo play you can go check it out)

[quxier]

On 2021-08-24 at 2:54 PM, McBrainPrime said:

Pulverize-  Pulverize now temporarily stops Grendel energy drain from feast for 15 seconds at base duration, when the duration ends Grendel will slowly resume top returning to his regular energy drain rate.

Reason; the reason why I made pulverize a duration ability is so that Grendel will benefit from energy sources that he will usually not gain when a channeling ability is active so sources like zenurik energy dashes or energy pizzas. The reason that i also made it a channeling ability after the duration is so that players will not be forced out of pulverize just incase their using the catapult augment to most around the map. I also added the halting of his energy drain so that he can fully utilize his energy into building up his nourished stacks

You are giving him little bit of duration.

Look at Sevagoth/Gloom. This is ability that has one of the greatest energy economy (not too much not too little). Main features:

- no energy drain if there are no enemies

- can get energy via zenurik in no-enemy-zone

- afair can get energy from orbs in all cases

- energy consumption cap (based on number of enemies, capped at 10-20 enemies)

By managing number of enemies (capped at 10 or 20 afair) Sev can use this ability for a long time. Stuffs like Energize, Equlibrum, Dispensary and other let us use Gloom ad infinitum.

Why Grendel couldn't have similar energy economy? It's not like Pulverize is something very powerful.

[McBrainPrime]

On 2021-08-31 at 9:34 PM, quxier said:

by managing number of enemies (capped at 10 or 20 afair) Sev can use this ability for a long time. Stuffs like Energize, Equlibrum, Dispensary and other let us use Gloom ad infinitum.

Why Grendel couldn't have similar energy economy? It's not like Pulverize is something very powerful.

its because you can turn off gloom while still being able function.... also sevagoth's gloom isnt a one shot bomb of death also the buff isnt meant to make pulverize good its meant to allow you to recast your nourish buffs to make them more powerfull.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, McBrainPrime said:

its because you can turn off gloom while still being able function

What you mean by that? You can "function" when you turn off Pulverize as well.

1 hour ago, McBrainPrime said:

also sevagoth's gloom isnt a one shot bomb of death

It's very powerful ability. It doesn't melt enemies but it slows them down a lot. Pulverize is not that powerful.

1 hour ago, McBrainPrime said:

the buff isnt meant to make pulverize good its meant to allow you to recast your nourish buffs to make them more powerfull.

Then just turn it off and eat more? That's how I do (well... I haven't been playing him for a long time). Giving them 15 seconds is just making ability harder to code without to much benefits.

 

[McBrainPrime]

On 2021-09-28 at 8:24 AM, quxier said:

Then just turn it off and eat more? That's how I do (well... I haven't been playing him for a long time). Giving them 15 seconds is just making ability harder to code without to much benefits.

no... your not understanding the buff i meant that you have 15 seconds of no energy drain when you enter pulverise but when you go past 15 second you wont be forced out of pulverize, the energy drain will just come back also the recast isnt about refreshing the duration its about the synergy with the other buff to nourish.

[(PSN)AbBaNdOn_]

Step one.. holding people in your gut consumes 0 energy.    Considering that spitting people out or casting buffs on people may want to be done at a later point in time Grendel is going to want to hold people in his belly..   but the whole reason he is screwed is because that consumes energy.  

Step two...buff his buffs..  1st...death to ability wheels.   But having offense/defense buffs would be fine if they were a decent amount which they currently are not.   The energy spring thing is pointless to Grendel and probably everyone else...  who knows... Im not bothering with ability wheel anyways.   (This ability/wheel also demands different stats than you may want just as a pure damage/survival grendel).

Step three.... speed up his balls innate movement speed.  Its to slow.

-------------

Grendel is one of the tankiest dudes in the game and he still isnt used very much.  Pablo is afraid to tweak frames because if you make some people happy you piss off others but...grendel has very low play stats who is there to piss off ?? 

[skullkid558]

Regarding NOURISH... I agree, it's pretty frikkin weak.

And while I get the utility dealio of the three effects, IMO it's not necessary or actually all that helpful.
Give it a tap effect and a held effect, done.

Tap for a quick refresh on ALL active effects applied, hold to churn your stomach's contents and kickstart the actual effects at full potency... Which definitely needs a massive buff.

[skullkid558]

On 2021-09-27 at 8:09 PM, McBrainPrime said:

its because you can turn off gloom while still being able function.... also sevagoth's gloom isnt a one shot bomb of death also the buff isnt meant to make pulverize good its meant to allow you to recast your nourish buffs to make them more powerfull.

It is however a percentile heal based on damage you deal, which is absurdly strong healing compared to pretty well every other ability.

5% of 1,000 damage per second? Yeah, that's a LOT. Especially when it can literally cost you 0 energy passively and when you gain said healing while shooting/melee'ing the enemy.

Most healing abilities interrupt actions or have an animation time. After you toggle Gloom on... You can just shoot an' shoot an' shoot.
It's super-efficient for energy use, super-potent for healing and synergizes with literally any frame using a gun/melee. AKA; all of them.

[skullkid558]

On 2021-10-18 at 1:08 PM, (PSN)AbBaNdOn_ said:

Step one.. holding people in your gut consumes 0 energy.    Considering that spitting people out or casting buffs on people may want to be done at a later point in time Grendel is going to want to hold people in his belly..   but the whole reason he is screwed is because that consumes energy.  

Step two...buff his buffs..  1st...death to ability wheels.   But having offense/defense buffs would be fine if they were a decent amount which they currently are not.   The energy spring thing is pointless to Grendel and probably everyone else...  who knows... Im not bothering with ability wheel anyways.   (This ability/wheel also demands different stats than you may want just as a pure damage/survival grendel).

Step three.... speed up his balls innate movement speed.  Its to slow.

-------------

Grendel is one of the tankiest dudes in the game and he still isnt used very much.  Pablo is afraid to tweak frames because if you make some people happy you piss off others but...grendel has very low play stats who is there to piss off ?? 

IMO, the issue with Grendel isn't merely that his 1st power consumes energy... But that it halts all regeneration of energy in addition.

But yeah, it seems quite absurdly fast in its drain. 10 guys in the gut is when you gain the most benefits from the Damage Reduction passive... But getting that many fellas in his stomach causes his energy to drain to 0 in seconds. Even faster if you have more than that.

What Grendel's FEAST needs is an energy drain cap after you hit 10 or more in the gut and it definitely needs to be lessened to stop draining his energy dry in seconds when you've got frikkin efficiency maxed with a hefty side of DURation. There is literally no good reason not to limit the drain after this point.
And rather than a passive for damage reduction per enemy in the gut, I agree that it'd be far more fair to just give him a health pool increase per enemy in the gut... Because sadly, that damage reduction can actually make it quite difficult to recover energy through Rage+Hunter Adrenaline. A partial damage reduction would be nice in addition to said health inflation, but as-is the passive is more harmful to the fatty than it is helpful.

 

Alternatively, if we wanna talk about ramping energy costs... Let's look at Ember.
With maxed efficiency, her passive power-up doesn't actually drain any energy as you can literally gain more energy from the ENERGY SIPHON aura than you lose per second... Yet another reason why Grendel's 1st power should not prevent energy regen' while active... But as I was saying...

Ember can indeed gain energy while her power is active, in spite of its energy cost, because it only actually ramps to a degree which outpaces the aura after you hit her heat cap'. You can get back to zero-sum energy drain again simply by dropping back under 100% heat.

 

Grendel could easily use the same balance. Remove the energy regen' halting effects of FEAST and reduce its energy drain to 0 until he swallows at least 10 enemies. After that, increase the energy drain by 0.1 per additional 10 and cap the drain at energy 10/s... All these values of course assume you have maxed energy efficiency.

Also, rather than applying a passive increase to armor per enemy, you could instead just redirect damage to the enemies in Grendel's gut. This would actively trim his fat, so to speak, and allow him to scale his tanking powah to the level of the enemies he swallows up.

[McBrainPrime]

On 2021-10-22 at 9:06 PM, skullkid558 said:

IMO, the issue with Grendel isn't merely that his 1st power consumes energy... But that it halts all regeneration of energy in addition.

But yeah, it seems quite absurdly fast in its drain. 10 guys in the gut is when you gain the most benefits from the Damage Reduction passive... But getting that many fellas in his stomach causes his energy to drain to 0 in seconds. Even faster if you have more than that.

What Grendel's FEAST needs is an energy drain cap after you hit 10 or more in the gut and it definitely needs to be lessened to stop draining his energy dry in seconds when you've got frikkin efficiency maxed with a hefty side of DURation. There is literally no good reason not to limit the drain after this point.
And rather than a passive for damage reduction per enemy in the gut, I agree that it'd be far more fair to just give him a health pool increase per enemy in the gut... Because sadly, that damage reduction can actually make it quite difficult to recover energy through Rage+Hunter Adrenaline. A partial damage reduction would be nice in addition to said health inflation, but as-is the passive is more harmful to the fatty than it is helpful.

 

Alternatively, if we wanna talk about ramping energy costs... Let's look at Ember.
With maxed efficiency, her passive power-up doesn't actually drain any energy as you can literally gain more energy from the ENERGY SIPHON aura than you lose per second... Yet another reason why Grendel's 1st power should not prevent energy regen' while active... But as I was saying...

Ember can indeed gain energy while her power is active, in spite of its energy cost, because it only actually ramps to a degree which outpaces the aura after you hit her heat cap'. You can get back to zero-sum energy drain again simply by dropping back under 100% heat.

 

Grendel could easily use the same balance. Remove the energy regen' halting effects of FEAST and reduce its energy drain to 0 until he swallows at least 10 enemies. After that, increase the energy drain by 0.1 per additional 10 and cap the drain at energy 10/s... All these values of course assume you have maxed energy efficiency.

Also, rather than applying a passive increase to armor per enemy, you could instead just redirect damage to the enemies in Grendel's gut. This would actively trim his fat, so to speak, and allow him to scale his tanking powah to the level of the enemies he swallows up.

Ok so i let this forum post sit for a little while to see how people would react to it and i can see that most of you are not getting the point of what type of tank grendel was suppose to be, since i see allot of you thinking that removing the "no energy from energy pads and aura" is a good fix but no.

grendel isnt a tank who can do their job just by standing on one place and going afk like inaros instead he is an active tank sure hes not as active as nidus but he also has more hp than nidus so grendel is basically an in between of nidus and inaros. a really tanky frame that doesn't need to rely on his abilities much but his abilities do give him a decent boost in damage and survivability but they do not give as much of a benefit as nidus' stacks nor are they as easy to maintain.

Nidus' stacks can allow him to have high hp regen, high damage reduction, great damage through augments, and even cheat death on the other side Inaros, he has a lot of hp which aids him allot in his survivability.

And then in the middle there is MY grendel, eating enemies can give him hp that can rival inaros but that hp needs to be maintained by watching your energy like nidus' stacks, My grendel gets a damage and damage reduction buff but you need to build it up to make it more effective similar to nidus' stacks with his augment but again this is not as power as nidus' because for grendel you need to watch his buff's duration and you energy bar. 

So in conclusion MY grendel has limitless potential for his buffs and his hp but the only thing thats making it not over powered is the question on whether or not you can REACH that high potential. So grendel will be a warframe in which you will have to work hard in order reach his potential not like mesa where you can just sit there invisible occasionally refreshing your 4 and shredding down enemies or even octavia where you can literally just put 1 and 2 down and then open your phone and relax and also occasionally refresh them. 

My grendel is an active team buffer who can also self sustain with infinite potential for damage and survivability. maintenance is your only wall.

also to yall complaining about ability wheel being "inconvenient" your brain has probably, if not definitely, been melted by the using the monkey too much if you think that looking at the icons on the bottom right side of the screen is "too inconvenient" then you've been too spoiled and your parents should probably stop giving you candy once in a while.

[McBrainPrime]

On 2021-10-19 at 12:08 AM, (PSN)AbBaNdOn_ said:

Step three.... speed up his balls innate movement speed.  Its to slow.

Bro.... catapult is a augment that can go in the exelus slot... sure its still an augment but its really fun to use and its an augment that can go in the free mod slot

[(PSN)AbBaNdOn_]

Rebb and Megan both used Grendel exclusively for a little bit... It would be cool to see their opinions.  

It would be hella cool to have people from DE do gear reviews...   Play certain frames or use certain weapons in various content and then writes up posts about what they thought of the gear..   Then people could come and agree or disagree with their findings..

-------

If Scott and Pablo are the gods of balance then it would be great if they were the ones doing the reviews....

DE is missing people who actually get hands on with their own game.  Even Rebb and Meg only show up for content streams.