DE are indirectly forced a crit meta

[Kazory]

let's do a count:

I have a gun that works with critical chance:

things i can kill: FOKIN EVERYTING

things i can't kill: bosses that you must hit to a weak point, but only if I use explosive weapons. I can actually kill him only that it is more difficult to hit the weak point

 

Now i have weapon based on status effect:

things i can't kill: acolytes, stalker, most of bosses, liches/sisters, any sentient enemy, enemy necramechs, any enemy varian with status inmunity.

 

a crit weapon work in any situation, a status chance weapon simply don't

with the introduction of galvanized is even worse, since a lot of braindead weapons can reach red crit easily, leaving the stats weapons more and more behind of the crit weapons.

some time ago I stopped playing because it was boring to have to go with a melee to the path of steel to kill.
With the introduction of galvanized mods I got back to enjoying primary weapons and discovered several weapons that are more fun than the typical full critical meta weapon like bramma kuva. The bad thing is that they are very limited in terms of their use, a critical weapon can kill anything, a status weapon can't and all because of the stupid changes that they put to "balance" the game which only affect a part of the weapons forcing you to use the rest which ironically are the strongest.

[Tsoe]

i couldnt agree more

 

you just forgot infested from deimos immune to viral status

 

 

anyway status still need buff and rework

 

status effect are barely noticeble now , if not for radiation , slash, fire, corrosive, cold and viral

 

that mean 6 under 17 status effect are worthy

 

 

and no void effect isnt worthy

 

impact is good cause it can proc slash so it doesnt count , opening ennemies for parazon finisher is kind of a joke it shouldnt be tied to impact only

 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

You can have more than one weapon......and the entire gaming community the past 20 years has favored crits....it's not a secret.....

Crits can be weak, ever heard of damage reduction? But even in warframe....ever heard of the prob cernos, muta cernos, zakti, embolist, serro etc. 

The game gives you some options at least. Explore more and stop blaming the game for your lack of experience.

[Kazory]

hace 9 minutos, Tsoe dijo:

you just forgot infested from deimos immune to viral status

 

yeah that was like:
DE: We need a way to make Deimos monsters tougher

employee: What if we do the same as the Nox and give him armor that scales with the player's DPS?

DE: nah let's put immunity to Viral, the only viable element that works to increase damage effectively. also make one of them completely immune to all status effects until you break a part of its armor.

[TuxedoCatfish]

21 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You can have more than one weapon......and the entire gaming community the past 20 years has favored crits....it's not a secret.....

Crits can be weak, ever heard of damage reduction? But even in warframe....ever heard of the prob cernos, muta cernos, zakti, embolist, serro etc. 

The game gives you some options at least. Explore more and stop blaming the game for your lack of experience.

Actually, the damage reduction formula for Liches, Necramechs, certain other new bosses, etc. ignores crits. Everything else gets scaled down but crits don't. Like that's literally the whole problem the OP is complaining about, crits get special better-than-normal treatment while status weapons get extra limitations on top of the base one (e.g. viral immunity and statuses capping at 4 instead of 10).

There are one or two enemies that scale everything down with no exception for crits (like Noxes), but they're much rarer.
 

If everything worked like Noxes there would be no problem -- some enemies would be really tanky but intentionally so. Instead you have this weird broken worst-of-both-worlds where crit weapons still instantly destroy these enemies if built correctly (despite DE's intention to make enemies who last a little bit longer) while status weapons get completely shut out of the picture.

[Kazory]

hace 3 minutos, (PSN)Madurai-Prime dijo:

You can have more than one weapon......and the entire gaming community the past 20 years has favored crits....it's not a secret.....

Crits can be weak, ever heard of damage reduction? But even in warframe....ever heard of the prob cernos, muta cernos, zakti, embolist, serro etc. 

The game gives you some options at least. Explore more and stop blaming the game for your lack of experience.

1. Even with % damage reduction like the juggernaut you can still kill him with a crit weapon, the difference is that you will have to use more than one shot to kill him.
On the other hand, any of the cases that i name above a state weapon does not work.

2. I have a lot of weapons with a lot of builds, all tested effectively in the steel path. Of all the weapons that you said i use frequently 3 of them only the zakti and muta cernos works against all enemies, also the muta cernos is hybrid not fully state.

3 I have explored enough to realize that just how state weapons work is wrong, if you base the damage system on two parts crit/status and buff enemies more against one system than another it is because your system is bad, not because the player does not know how to build the weapons.

4 If in a game half the weapons cannot kill any enemy but the other half yes, it is because the game is wrong. The argument of carrying more than one weapon does not apply here because it is not like shoters like doom where you can carry several weapons and they are all useful, here you carry primary secondary and mele. If you carry a stats based weapon you are going to have problems with everything I mentioned above, if you carry crit weapon you will not have a problem with anything, and that is what is wrong with the game.

[Kazory]

I don't ask for wonders, I only ask for a system where a weapon that deals damage using states works just as well as a weapon that deals direct damage with critics.
And that's the problem, any weapon that hits direct damage with crit works in any situation. the ones that deal damage with status effects don't work in many cases.

[Tsoe]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You can have more than one weapon......and the entire gaming community the past 20 years has favored crits....it's not a secret.....

Crits can be weak, ever heard of damage reduction? But even in warframe....ever heard of the prob cernos, muta cernos, zakti, embolist, serro etc. 

The game gives you some options at least. Explore more and stop blaming the game for your lack of experience.

Sorry but its really not about the lack of experience his point is legit

status is weak period

 

note that i always favored status builds when the effect was fun , when blast was blasting stuff and gaz was contagious

[Krion112]

Indeed, Status Immunity just hurts build variety. It always seems like wherever Status would actually do its job, DE puts an immunity there.
I'd like to see Status Immunity completely removed, and replaced with mechanics that encourage counter-play.

Specifically, for Sentients, I had this idea where they'd still suffer the effects of Status, however, any Elemental Statuses they have on them will grant additional functionality depending on the Unit, such as:

• Channeling any Statuses on them into Elemental Damage for their own Attacks.
• Becoming additionally resistant or immune to the Damage from that Element, while still being affected by its Status Effects.
• Leaving behind Elemental Damage Fields from the Statuses on Death, affecting anything that enters them.
• Redirecting Status Effects to Attackers
• Being able to turn Status Effects into Abilities, such as creating radial shields or blasts, or launching projectiles, of that Element.

I also think Magnetic's Disrupt Status should prevent Sentients from Adapting, to make it a little more useful.

[quxier]

2 hours ago, Tsoe said:

 

and no void effect isnt worthy

For sentients & "disarming property" it's useful, imho. But... whatever floats your boat.

[Leqesai]

15 minutes ago, quxier said:

For sentients & "disarming property" it's useful, imho. But... whatever floats your boat.

In New War I imagine void damage will be very useful.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

5 hours ago, Kazory said:

yeah that was like:
DE: We need a way to make Deimos monsters tougher

employee: What if we do the same as the Nox and give him armor that scales with the player's DPS?

DE: nah let's put immunity to Viral, the only viable element that works to increase damage effectively. also make one of them completely immune to all status effects until you break a part of its armor.

"only viable element that works to increase damage effectively"

Like I said: please try to learn the game before making judgements.

You have 3 weapons and a frame's 4 abilities plus an Operator. 

There's nothing in the game that says "You will be able to play this game normally by intentionally nerfing yourself to try to make a point."

If you go into a mission with an only status or only crit weapon, that's your fault. 

And I just killed an acolyte with a Tysis, so you're also wrong about that as well.

[George_PPS]

Agreeing with this. Players used to be able to pick crit, hybrid, OR status builds. Now it's just all crit since last major damage rework. This rework also killed many melees' damage potential and ALSO their unique and original mechanics such as Zenistar. 

[Aldain]

All this thread is doing is making me cry for the Ambassador, 2.8x multiplier and DE in their infinite wisdom give it a Crit Chance only 2% better than a Braton...with the same base damage as one to boot.

But no, they give both fire modes massive Status potential, on a single target gun that is locked to pure Electricity damage which means at best it can only do 2 Status effects, which makes the Galvanized mod that increases damage based on number of Status effects a moot point since any weapon that has IPS can benefit better from sheer status applications alone.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

13 hours ago, Krion112 said:

Indeed, Status Immunity just hurts build variety. It always seems like wherever Status would actually do its job, DE puts an immunity there.
I'd like to see Status Immunity completely removed, and replaced with mechanics that encourage counter-play.

Specifically, for Sentients, I had this idea where they'd still suffer the effects of Status, however, any Elemental Statuses they have on them will grant additional functionality depending on the Unit, such as:

• Channeling any Statuses on them into Elemental Damage for their own Attacks.
• Becoming additionally resistant or immune to the Damage from that Element, while still being affected by its Status Effects.
• Leaving behind Elemental Damage Fields from the Statuses on Death, affecting anything that enters them.
• Redirecting Status Effects to Attackers
• Being able to turn Status Effects into Abilities, such as creating radial shields or blasts, or launching projectiles, of that Element.

I also think Magnetic's Disrupt Status should prevent Sentients from Adapting, to make it a little more useful.

Status immunity seemed to only exist to stop us from using Corrosive to fully strip armor permanently. Against exponentially scaling armor, 100% armor stripping was more powerful than any crit multiplier.

Now Corrosive is capped and with the exception of Slash procs, all status effects are inferior to raw Crit........and through Hunter Munitions, Crit weapons get Slash procs anyways. 

 

[Tsoe]

Cedo is the sol weapon that can fully kill acolyte with status benefit

 

galvanised status mod in a lesser way

 

since the proc still count but not doing damage it still activate the bonus per status type affecting target

[sunderthefirmament]

On 2021-08-24 at 2:56 PM, Kazory said:

 

 

Now i have weapon based on status effect:

things i can't kill: acolytes, stalker, most of bosses, liches/sisters, any sentient enemy, enemy necramechs, any enemy varian with status inmunity.

 

Don't forget hives (Infested Hive, Naeglar).  I know they aren't terribly common, but it's still a pain when you don't have a crit weapon on.

 

Honestly the crit/status discrepancy is one reason I haven't Helminthed off Wukong's otherwise underwhelming 4.  I keep it as a largely crit focused melee for whenever a status immune obstacle appears.

[Kazory]

hace 7 horas, Tsoe dijo:

Cedo is the sol weapon that can fully kill acolyte with status benefit

 

galvanised status mod in a lesser way

 

since the proc still count but not doing damage it still activate the bonus per status type affecting target

The problem with the Cedo is that it deals damage through direct hit, not through status effects like a weapon that has to do a lot of heat or slashing effects to do damage.

[Leqesai]

24 minutes ago, Kazory said:

The problem with the Cedo is that it deals damage through direct hit, not through status effects like a weapon that has to do a lot of heat or slashing effects to do damage.

True. Except Cedo can use the Galvanized Savvy mod that makes it deal significantly more damage based on its ability to apply tons of status procs.

[Kazory]

En 24/8/2021 a las 22:05, (PSN)Madurai-Prime dijo:

"only viable element that works to increase damage effectively"

Like I said: please try to learn the game before making judgements.

You have 3 weapons and a frame's 4 abilities plus an Operator. 

There's nothing in the game that says "You will be able to play this game normally by intentionally nerfing yourself to try to make a point."

If you go into a mission with an only status or only crit weapon, that's your fault. 

And I just killed an acolyte with a Tysis, so you're also wrong about that as well.

jesus stop defending this mediocre system saying "TrY tO lEaRn tHe gAmE" i have 1.6k hours, complete all adventures, planets, I've been through all the content the game has offered me to this point and and tested more than 100 weapons. I have enough experience already to know how the game works. corr is only viable in some cases and weapons, generally viral works better.

"You have 3 weapons and a frame's 4 abilities plus an Operator": I have 3 weapons but one is a melee another a secondary weapon that in 90% of the cases does not equal the power of the primary, so I have two options 1 to go as a lobotomized monkey hitting with the melee (because it is sooo funny he is using only x12 combo or heavy attacks) or use the primary. warframe habilites In 90% of the cases they do not scale with the level so the damage ones are useless at high levels leaving you only with the utility ones. and those of the operator only ar useful in specific cases, under no circumstances will they help me to do something of what I mentioned above with a weapon based on states. If the game does not let me play only with the primary weapon it is because IT HAS A BAD SYSTEM.

"If you go into a mission with an only status or only crit weapon, that's your fault": If I go to a mission with only critical weapons in 100% of the cases I will pass it without problem. If I use a state one and I find any situation mentioned before I will have problems or I will not be able to do it. If a whole category of weapons is inferior to the other just because there are stupid and arbitrary limitations, it is because IT IS A BAD SYSTEM.

"And I just killed an acolyte with a Tysis, so you're also wrong about that as well" Congratulations you killed an Acolyte with a weapon that bases its damage on a CONSTANT PROC that it leaves with its projectile, unlike I don't know, a Phantasma that bases its damage on the amount of heat states it can put on an enemy. If you want to make a real comparison so you can see how bad the system is, take the Phantasma and try to kill any enemy with immunity to states. now take a Soma or any weapon that deals direct damage and kill the same enemy and see how bad that system is.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

11 hours ago, Kazory said:

jesus stop defending this mediocre system saying "TrY tO lEaRn tHe gAmE" i have 1.6k hours, complete all adventures, planets, I've been through all the content the game has offered me to this point and and tested more than 100 weapons. I have enough experience already to know how the game works. corr is only viable in some cases and weapons, generally viral works better.

"You have 3 weapons and a frame's 4 abilities plus an Operator": I have 3 weapons but one is a melee another a secondary weapon that in 90% of the cases does not equal the power of the primary, so I have two options 1 to go as a lobotomized monkey hitting with the melee (because it is sooo funny he is using only x12 combo or heavy attacks) or use the primary. warframe habilites In 90% of the cases they do not scale with the level so the damage ones are useless at high levels leaving you only with the utility ones. and those of the operator only ar useful in specific cases, under no circumstances will they help me to do something of what I mentioned above with a weapon based on states. If the game does not let me play only with the primary weapon it is because IT HAS A BAD SYSTEM.

"If you go into a mission with an only status or only crit weapon, that's your fault": If I go to a mission with only critical weapons in 100% of the cases I will pass it without problem. If I use a state one and I find any situation mentioned before I will have problems or I will not be able to do it. If a whole category of weapons is inferior to the other just because there are stupid and arbitrary limitations, it is because IT IS A BAD SYSTEM.

"And I just killed an acolyte with a Tysis, so you're also wrong about that as well" Congratulations you killed an Acolyte with a weapon that bases its damage on a CONSTANT PROC that it leaves with its projectile, unlike I don't know, a Phantasma that bases its damage on the amount of heat states it can put on an enemy. If you want to make a real comparison so you can see how bad the system is, take the Phantasma and try to kill any enemy with immunity to states. now take a Soma or any weapon that deals direct damage and kill the same enemy and see how bad that system is.

I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to wipe the floor with a boss with a single status weapon. Maybe throw a nezha chakram in addition to using that status weapon to increase your damage etc. 

There's a video of someone using the phantasm on steel path recently. He's melting grineer just fine, but that same weapon should also just delete one of the games primary bosses as well just as easily? Then what is the difference between fodder enemies and bosses then?

You basically want to make bosses easier to kill with the same methods that wipe fodder enemies away with ease.

[Kazory]

hace 1 hora, (PSN)Madurai-Prime dijo:

I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to wipe the floor with a boss with a single status weapon. Maybe throw a nezha chakram in addition to using that status weapon to increase your damage etc. 

There's a video of someone using the phantasm on steel path recently. He's melting grineer just fine, but that same weapon should also just delete one of the games primary bosses as well just as easily? Then what is the difference between fodder enemies and bosses then?

You basically want to make bosses easier to kill with the same methods that wipe fodder enemies away with ease.

"I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to wipe the floor with a boss with a single status weapon": I'm pretty sure it should be like this, Basically because if I carried a direct damage or critical-based weapon I could do it, but if I carry one that bases its damage on status procs I can't. You literally say that you shouldn't be able to clear an entire level with the same weapon, but that can be done with any weapon except status weapons.

 

"There's a video of someone using the phantasm on steel path recently. He's melting grineer just fine, but that same weapon should also just delete one of the games primary bosses as well just as easily?: of course it should, basically because if you carry a bramma kuva, lenz, staltha, tetra tenet or any other broken crit weapon you can oneshot the acolytes. the only weapons that do not work are those based on status chance because they have resistance to the states. If I can kill a acolyte on one hit with a red crit from a staltha why shouldn't I be able to kill it by putting 500 heat states with a Phantasma?

 

Then what is the difference between fodder enemies and bosses then?": If you carry a critical weapon, the difference is that it has a life bar and it takes a few more shots to kill it. if you carry a state weapon the difference is that it is unkillable in 90% of the cases.

"You basically want to make bosses easier to kill with the same methods that wipe fodder enemies away with ease": This is the most hypocritical answer I have read from you so far. You're basically describing how crit or direct damage weapons work. you can clear a complete level with boss included with the same weapon. If a critical weapon can do it, why a status weapon can't?

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

40 minutes ago, Kazory said:

"I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to wipe the floor with a boss with a single status weapon": I'm pretty sure it should be like this, Basically because if I carried a direct damage or critical-based weapon I could do it, but if I carry one that bases its damage on status procs I can't. You literally say that you shouldn't be able to clear an entire level with the same weapon, but that can be done with any weapon except status weapons.

 

"There's a video of someone using the phantasm on steel path recently. He's melting grineer just fine, but that same weapon should also just delete one of the games primary bosses as well just as easily?: of course it should, basically because if you carry a bramma kuva, lenz, staltha, tetra tenet or any other broken crit weapon you can oneshot the acolytes. the only weapons that do not work are those based on status chance because they have resistance to the states. If I can kill a acolyte on one hit with a red crit from a staltha why shouldn't I be able to kill it by putting 500 heat states with a Phantasma?

 

Then what is the difference between fodder enemies and bosses then?": If you carry a critical weapon, the difference is that it has a life bar and it takes a few more shots to kill it. if you carry a state weapon the difference is that it is unkillable in 90% of the cases.

"You basically want to make bosses easier to kill with the same methods that wipe fodder enemies away with ease": This is the most hypocritical answer I have read from you so far. You're basically describing how crit or direct damage weapons work. you can clear a complete level with boss included with the same weapon. If a critical weapon can do it, why a status weapon can't?

I think the status immunity or caps are there for a reason. Most people are using both status and crit....and no ones taking crit weapons with no point strike or organ shatter to steel path. People are also buffing themselves and debuffing the enemy which is what you're supposed to do. Using a weapon as some stand alone item isn't how the game is played: you buff it or debuff the enemy or use whatever tools are available.

What happens when that phantasma gets buffed and used against a debuffed enemy? What about a high strength octavia buffing your phantasma with her 4? Or an octavia and a harrow and a chroma? What if those other 3 players are also shooting phantasmas at the enemy as well? 

Either way, hope you get what you're looking for. I don't care how op they make the game, just pointing out some observations on why they were placed there in the first place.

[Kazory]

hace 1 hora, (PSN)Madurai-Prime dijo:

I think the status immunity or caps are there for a reason. Most people are using both status and crit....and no ones taking crit weapons with no point strike or organ shatter to steel path. People are also buffing themselves and debuffing the enemy which is what you're supposed to do. Using a weapon as some stand alone item isn't how the game is played: you buff it or debuff the enemy or use whatever tools are available.

What happens when that phantasma gets buffed and used against a debuffed enemy? What about a high strength octavia buffing your phantasma with her 4? Or an octavia and a harrow and a chroma? What if those other 3 players are also shooting phantasmas at the enemy as well? 

Either way, hope you get what you're looking for. I don't care how op they make the game, just pointing out some observations on why they were placed there in the first place.

"Using a weapon as some stand alone item isn't how the game is played" under that concept the bosses should have immunity to critics, armor and adaptive damage reduction scaling with the damage of your weapon, to prevent the use of only crit weapons.

"What happens when that phantasma gets buffed and used against a debuffed enemy? What about a high strength octavia buffing your phantasma with her 4? Or an octavia and a harrow and a chroma? What if those other 3 players are also shooting phantasmas at the enemy as well?" The same will happen if those 3 get together with critical nuke weapons. Which I consider a fair game, if those 3 work with critical weapons why not with status damage?
 

[XaoGarrent]

I called this way back when they were reworking status and nerfing status shotguns. Everyone was telling me I was wrong, and low and behold, here we are.

I'm just going to say "I told you so" and peace out.