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I'm starting to see the gist of this "sustainable content"


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From past interaction with several Tenno in this forum about sustainable content, I get two points of what is sustainable content is :

1. It's something you keep using
Basically, you will use it in your usual game play so technically, endo, resource, credits and relics are sustainable content.

2. It's made for veterans
Funny thing is, things that perfectly fit their criteria is dismissed instantly with an excuse : I have tons of them as a 'veteran', therefore it doesn't count.

In other words, sustainable content is something to grind as a 'veteran', which from my understanding it's not something warframe uses as a main model. Apparently someone needs to keep grinding for drops/loot to play or they have no reason so it's going into "riven roll" territory where the sustainable content is Kuva to reroll riven mod stats. If that's what they need, I might have something stolen from a game I just downloaded yesterday : Mothergunship

Basically mech version of Doom, you have 2 arms to hold two weapons and the selling point is the modularity where you can make your own gun from sockets, barrels and caps

- Sockets adds more slot into your gun

- Barrel is self explanatory

- Caps adds special effect such as ricochet, multishot, knockback, damage, etc

I believe you understand where this goes to : Zaws and Kitguns

We can put more zaw and kitgun parts on multiple places with different models and effects and if it's not enough, we can adopt railjack armament style of random roll with multiple rolls instead of one.

Example

- Barrel A : gives a ricocheting balls of energy
Rolls :
* Base damage
* Multishot

- Grip
Rolls :
* Damage
* Range
* Fire rate
* Recoil

- Loader :
Rolls :
* Magazine capacity
* Reload speed
* Critical chance
* Status chance
* Possible effect

Along with this, we can put stats on each parts, making it clear on how much you get and how much you lose on certain aspects like MOA companion parts. What do you get on the roll? You won't know until you inspect on the part reducing the clutter on foundry.

Also, no valence fusion on this so you can keep playing (grinding).
 

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I see where you're going but, looking at Warframe with a wide lens, DE has created the perfect sustainable game that actually doesn't need anything else added to the game. Vets who complain about sustainable content are refusing to accept their own, personal, shortcomings.

I'm a vet of over 5 years and I don't rush, overplay or overextend anything the game has to offer. This, in turn, has always kept me behind on getting all of the gear, parts, etc. The good news is the game is exactly made for players like me...a hardcore casual I guess.  Completionists, endurance, rushframe and copy cat players are always the ones left wanting more and more. DE does the right thing by lightly throwing bones at them because their playstyles are natural leech effects, never enough to satisfy. 

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It would be dismissed for the same reasons reward focused players dismiss existing content. They would just grind it out until they get rolls they're satisfied with then be finished with the system and never look back unless it gets updated/changed.

But reward based content can't be "sustainable" anyways without taking away rewards or resetting progress towards new rewards. Any reward system that claims to be sustainable without using those methods is actually just an incredibly long grind or uses FOMO to make players feel forced to keep engaging with the grind.

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Using? No. Doing. It's something you can keep doing. And sustainable content actually needs to be sustainable. It needs to work all on its own with as little future development or manual intervention possible.

New junk to collect is something to do, but it's always going to be temporary. Eventually you'll get the final missing RNG Zaw part and poof, just like Liches or Sisters you'll no longer have a reason to play that content anymore. They could add more weapons to get you back in, but that means more development time. And a system DE needs to constantly upkeep with new content isn't sustainable, it's a drain on their resources. Like Nightwave, which requires constant content and attention.

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2 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

It's something you can keep doing

If it's something you can keep doing, even E Prime exterminate is sustainable content by that definition because you can keep coming in there and doing it

3 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

And sustainable content actually needs to be sustainable

I believe the sustainable content is a hogwash since there's no content being truly sustainable, as this fellow Tenno said

15 minutes ago, trst said:

But reward based content can't be "sustainable" anyways without taking away rewards or resetting progress towards new rewards. Any reward system that claims to be sustainable without using those methods is actually just an incredibly long grind or uses FOMO to make players feel forced to keep engaging with the grind.

Even without going with reward based content, how do you make sustainable content?

5 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

New junk to collect is something to do, but it's always going to be temporary. Eventually you'll get the final missing RNG Zaw part and poof, just like Liches or Sisters you'll no longer have a reason to play that content anymore.

Guess why other games being reluctant on putting valence fusion or any kind of fusion on their gear system, it eventually close the final missing RNG part. So, should DE remove the valence fusion to give you "a reason to play that content"?

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55 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

If it's something you can keep doing, even E Prime exterminate is sustainable content by that definition because you can keep coming in there and doing it

Well you have to want to keep doing it as well. Maybe I should have been more explicit with my definition, my bad. You can keep running E Prime until you're an old man, but why would you? What's there on E Prime for you to keep doing? If it isn't fun and you're not getting rewarded, why would anyone bother? If there's no reason to keep using or doing the content, then by either of our definitions it isn't sustainable.

55 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

I believe the sustainable content is a hogwash since there's no content being truly sustainable, as this fellow Tenno said

🤔

But you suggested the very rewards-based content trst is saying can't be sustainable? I agree with them, too. What you're suggesting isn't actually sustainable.

And it sounds like your mind is already made up, so are you just posting bait to start an argument or do you actually want to talk about this?

55 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Even without going with reward based content, how do you make sustainable content?

The best way to make sustainable content is to make content that's intrinsically rewarding.

There are intrinsic rewards, and there are extrinsic rewards. Extrinsic rewards are, essentially, paying you to get you to play content. Money, XP, rewards, your RNG Zaw parts, etc. You're doing the content just to get there reward at the end. So when you run out of reward, you run out of reasons to do the content and it dies. There's no reason to keep doing or using the content, so like with your E Prime example by both of our definitions it's not sustainable. Intrinsic rewards are the feelings and experiences you get from doing the content itself. You're doing the content because the content is fun and you like doing it. Steve went down this very line of thought at one point not too long ago, so maybe we can avoid the inevitable "but DE doesn't wanna" rhetoric moving forward - this is an issue the game's creative director himself was contemplating not too long ago. And maybe we can avoid the inevitable "but I'm still having fun so it's a problem with you" rhetoric, too, and understand that different players at different points in the game will find different things rewarding - or not rewarding, in this case.

There are a few ways to make intrinsically rewarding content, here are some:

  • You can make content that's constructive. Give players agency or ownership over something.
  • You can make content that's competitive. Give players something to fight over.
  • You can make content that's challenging. Give players something to overcome and strive for.
  • You can make content that involves the community. Give players a way to feel like part of something larger than themselves.

Two quick examples:

  1. Lift the Armistice and return Solar Rail Conflicts. I know people are going to fly into a blind frothy rage and the mere suggestion, but PvP is endlessly repeatable and sustainable. All of the issues with Solar Rail Conflicts are now easily solvable with today's mechanics, and giving clans territory to control, enemies to compete with, and the most challenging gameplay Warframe can offer ticks all of those boxes.
  2. Revamp the Invasion system. Make it so invasions aren't some optional outlier mission type, make the player's involvement more transparent, and take them off their rails. Let the community actually work towards triggering Fomorians and Razorbacks (instead of the smoke and mirrors used now), and let these events actually result in a destroyed relay. Then let the community rebuild them! Add more of these triggered events, like RNG bosses (essentially, community Liches) or Arlo's Infested planetoids. Maybe the community can trigger Plague Star or Thermia Fractures all on their own. Involve the Sentients, too, so the New War can actually feel like a war. And once it's developed, DE can sit back and let it run.

Coming up with this stuff is really easy if you're actually open to a solution.

55 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Guess why other games being reluctant on putting valence fusion or any kind of fusion on their gear system, it eventually close the final missing RNG part. So, should DE remove the valence fusion to give you "a reason to play that content"?

I wasn't talking about other games so I'm not sure what your point is but yes, DE should remove valence fusion. Not because of sustainability, mind you, but because RNG stats are dumb and we're better off without them. This is probably off-topic, though I'm happy to elaborate.

Edited by PublikDomain
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3 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

If it isn't fun and you're not getting rewarded, why would anyone bother?

Fun is subjective. You may find blasting level 1 grineer as not fun, the other may find it relaxing and fun seeing how they die in one shot and in the end, it's back to reward

5 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

But you suggested the very rewards-based content trst is saying can't be sustainable? I agree with them, too. What you're suggesting isn't actually sustainable.

And it sounds like your mind is already made up, so are you just posting bait to start an argument or do you actually want to talk about this?

Isn't actually sustainable, maybe but we can always go full RNG for that, making it "sustainable" where people put it as something you can grind forever on any level of player, finding that one in a million. There you go, a "sustainable" content where players spend thousands of hours in one content as "successful content"

7 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Intrinsic rewards are the feelings and experiences you get from doing the content itself.

And for me, E Prime is a fun place to vent off after a day work so it's not an absolute "no reason to do it" as you said

9 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

You can make content that's constructive. Give players agency or ownership over something.

Clan dojo it is

9 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

You can make content that's competitive. Give players something to fight over.

Conclave, and we know how this community sees PvP (that makes me wanting to put Teshin's nikana on rank 5 Conclave even more)

10 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

You can make content that's challenging. Give players something to overcome and strive for.

Seeing how the "challenge" is most of the time is stacking a lot of limits and negative status and positive status on enemies, that's sort of tiring and seeing how our balance is, it's actually a good thing for those team composition of dps, tank, healer etc but we know that's not acceptable, everything must be possible solo

12 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

You can make content that involves the community. Give players a way to feel like part of something larger than themselves.

I'm sure relay rebuilding with syndicate rally is something that can be done, with relay aesthetics depending on the winning syndicate

14 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Let the community actually work towards triggering Fomorians and Razorbacks (instead of the smoke and mirrors used now)

You're saying winning for grineer or corpus doesn't help triggering fomorians or razorbacks with their construction status? Pretty sure fomorian wasn't coming for months and my region had 2 razorbacks that time

15 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

RNG bosses (essentially, community Liches)

I doubt that would be welcome, seeing how liches have different weaknesses and resistances, making one near impossible to kill if the group happen to not having the correct element

17 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Maybe the community can trigger Plague Star or Thermia Fractures all on their own

And how do this work, exactly? Seeing how things go, I doubt we can trigger them on our own

19 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

DE should remove valence fusion. But not because of sustainable content, but because RNG stats are dumb and we're better off without them.

Seeing how we get "nothing to do" and "content drought", I don't think there's any online game that doesn't pad their play time with RNG grind and pretty sure the RNG comes from those complaints.

Also, if you remove valence fusion, no more slowly working for your sweet 60% on Kuva/Tenet weapons, fight the lich/sister until you find one

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1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Fun is subjective. You may find blasting level 1 grineer as not fun, the other may find it relaxing and fun seeing how they die in one shot and in the end, it's back to reward

1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And for me, E Prime is a fun place to vent off after a day work so it's not an absolute "no reason to do it" as you said

This is why it's good to have many different types of content to do, and why there's no one silver bullet to solving this. Making good sustainable content means making many different kinds of sustainable content and appealing to many different interests, instead of catering to just one. You're not the only one playing the game, nor am I. It's better if both of us have content we can enjoy than to have one of us be excluded.

1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Isn't actually sustainable, maybe but we can always go full RNG for that, making it "sustainable" where people put it as something you can grind forever on any level of player, finding that one in a million. There you go, a "sustainable" content where players spend thousands of hours in one content as "successful content"

Rivens are like this, and you know what? I don't open Rivens anymore. Out of the hundred Rivens I've accumulated, barely a dozen are actually unveiled and only a handful actually get used. The system is dead to me in large part because of the RNG and surrounding systems. This is a common piece of feedback you'll see pop up regarding Rivens, usually along the lines of "why bother rolling a Riven if it's just going to be nerfed later" and so on.

Either way telling someone they can grind away at crappy odds doesn't magically give them something they want to do, especially if the item they're expected to grind for doesn't even have a use. Let's say the game does go full RNG: why would I bother grinding this RNG when I'm so overpowered it already takes hours of endless content for the game to get hard enough that I have to actually pay attention? Why would I want to get this new content (outside of getting it once for Mastery) when there's nothing I need it for? If I tell you "flip this dice for me until you roll 6 a hundred times in a row and I'll give you a piece of gum"... Are you gonna bother?

1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Clan dojo it is

1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Conclave, and we know how this community sees PvP (that makes me wanting to put Teshin's nikana on rank 5 Conclave even more)

Yep, in many ways Ikeaframe is constructive and it occupies a lot of players who are interested in it. Conclave, too. These are both pretty sustainable, or at least have the potential to be.

1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Seeing how the "challenge" is most of the time is stacking a lot of limits and negative status and positive status on enemies, that's sort of tiring and seeing how our balance is, it's actually a good thing for those team composition of dps, tank, healer etc but we know that's not acceptable, everything must be possible solo

It might be tiring for you, maybe, but fun's subjective right? And back in the old days of Tower Defense and Raids before the game's balance got so unmanageable proper team compositions used to be a thing, so it's not like this is a new concept. It's still generally applicable to content like Eidolons, too, though there are some strategies that can make a team redundant. And while I'd say that generally Warframe is a cooperative game, there are some who do like playing solo (though the reasons are often because of flaws with the balance 🙄). But solo doesn't mean easy: solo content can be challenging, too. One of my most memorable experiences in Blade & Soul was overcoming a challenging solo boss.

Though like you say, balance is the biggest roadblock to challenge. We can't have challenging content for the players who want it when the game is so poorly balanced. And we can't get anywhere on the balance front because some players can't stand the idea of having content that requires an effort, and others can't stand the idea of having content geared towards players other than themselves.

1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

You're saying winning for grineer or corpus doesn't help triggering fomorians or razorbacks with their construction status? Pretty sure fomorian wasn't coming for months and my region had 2 razorbacks that time

1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

I doubt that would be welcome, seeing how liches have different weaknesses and resistances, making one near impossible to kill if the group happen to not having the correct element

1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And how do this work, exactly? Seeing how things go, I doubt we can trigger them on our own

I'll just address this all together since it's about the same thing.

If the bar for Razorbacks and Fomorians is already based on real actions, then it's not transparent or communicated well to the playerbase. But past that we can make a good guess that the events themselves are manually triggered, because the bar will often fill up and just sit there. We also know that the resulting events are totally fake and there's no chance of failure.

In regards to the "community Liches" comment, I meant that more along the lines of using the tech used to produce random Liches/Sisters to make bosses for Invasion content, not the specific Lich mechanics. Like say the Corpus start invading Saturn, so the game pits the newly-generated Reclamations Director Azod-IX against Sargas Ruk. He's just the dude that chimes in and yells at the player, same as how Sorties use a random boss to give them some context, though there could certainly be a community boss fight as a stage of an Invasion.

Like let's say that Plague Star is the result of an Infested Invasion on Earth. By meeting community goals like doing a certain number of missions we unlock the randomly generated Prelate boss, and by killing him a certain number of times and idk donating a certain number of collected Whizbangs to the war effort, at the conclusion of the Invasion it drops a Plague Star outside Cetus for a few days. Say that the community fails to clear the Boil, so it drops a month-long Infestation after Plague Star ends and when you visit Cetus it's all spore-y and gross.

These are just examples, though. I'm not making any specific demands, here, just spitballing some ways this stuff could work.

1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Also, if you remove valence fusion, no more slowly working for your sweet 60% on Kuva/Tenet weapons, fight the lich/sister until you find one

You say that like it's a bad thing lol, but in the case of Liches and Sisters for example there's no reason the bonus damage couldn't be implemented as a set of Arcanes instead. The RNG isn't necessary and could be done in ways that don't require the extra database storage space DE so often bemoans. In this case say you generate a Heat Lich, and each level it gains gives you 1 more Lich Heat Arcane upon vanquishing that you can only use on Kuva weapons. Instead of grinding against RNG, you could grind against guaranteed progress. You could still trade them, and could get benefits like being able to swap elements at will. I think it'd be a lot better this way with a lot of obvious benefits.

Edited by PublikDomain
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19 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

It might be tiring for you, maybe, but fun's subjective right?

I don't mind having a challenge, if it's not the same cheap trick many games use to stack the odds as "challenge"

20 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Though like you say, balance is the biggest roadblock to challenge. We can't have challenging content for the players who want it when the game is so poorly balanced. And we can't get anywhere on the balance front because some players can't stand the idea of having content that requires an effort, and others can't stand the idea of having content geared towards players other than themselves.

Honestly, the balance itself is fine. Tanks like inaros or nidus can take damage while dealing mediocre damage compared to glass cannons like banshee is something normal, that makes team composition to be a thing to ensure the team have minimal amount of getting downed while doing the mission and if those glass cannons want to go solo, it's not like it's a suicide when you can blitz through rooms or wreck enemies in a room with one button compared to other games where going alone means you need the highest level equipment with the best enhancement to survive a hit

24 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

In regards to the "community Liches" comment, I meant that more along the lines of using the tech used to produce random Liches/Sisters to make bosses for Invasion content, not the specific Lich mechanics. Like say the Corpus start invading Saturn, so the game pits the newly-generated Reclamations Director Azod-IX against Sargas Ruk. He's just the dude that chimes in and yells at the player, same as how Sorties use a random boss to give them some context, though there could certainly be a community boss fight as a stage of an Invasion.

And what the boss will be though? Unless they're armed to the teeth, they might end up like the sergeant and of course, I don't think those names will be permanent

27 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Arcane upon vanquishing that you can only use on Kuva weapons

And how do you get the kuva weapons? One drop and no more duplicate on that?

28 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Instead of grinding against RNG, you could grind against guaranteed progress

We have valence fusion for that, you can kill liches and still have a guaranteed progress to 60%

29 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

being able to swap elements at will

While it's good, I'll take the multiple weapons for now since it's easier to forget switching the arcane when you only change your weapon

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6 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

From past interaction with several Tenno in this forum about sustainable content, I get two points of what is sustainable content is :

1. It's something you keep using
Basically, you will use it in your usual game play so technically, endo, resource, credits and relics are sustainable content.

2. It's made for veterans
Funny thing is, things that perfectly fit their criteria is dismissed instantly with an excuse : I have tons of them as a 'veteran', therefore it doesn't count.

In other words, sustainable content is something to grind as a 'veteran', which from my understanding it's not something warframe uses as a main model. Apparently someone needs to keep grinding for drops/loot to play or they have no reason so it's going into "riven roll" territory where the sustainable content is Kuva to reroll riven mod stats. If that's what they need, I might have something stolen from a game I just downloaded yesterday : Mothergunship

Basically mech version of Doom, you have 2 arms to hold two weapons and the selling point is the modularity where you can make your own gun from sockets, barrels and caps

- Sockets adds more slot into your gun

- Barrel is self explanatory

- Caps adds special effect such as ricochet, multishot, knockback, damage, etc

I believe you understand where this goes to : Zaws and Kitguns

We can put more zaw and kitgun parts on multiple places with different models and effects and if it's not enough, we can adopt railjack armament style of random roll with multiple rolls instead of one.

Example

- Barrel A : gives a ricocheting balls of energy
Rolls :
* Base damage
* Multishot

- Grip
Rolls :
* Damage
* Range
* Fire rate
* Recoil

- Loader :
Rolls :
* Magazine capacity
* Reload speed
* Critical chance
* Status chance
* Possible effect

Along with this, we can put stats on each parts, making it clear on how much you get and how much you lose on certain aspects like MOA companion parts. What do you get on the roll? You won't know until you inspect on the part reducing the clutter on foundry.

Also, no valence fusion on this so you can keep playing (grinding).
 

I see where your idea comes from
But i believe you didnt understand what sustainable content really is
For example this forum is sustainable content

Idea is not that we can repeat it (post again and again)
Idea is to create such a vacuum we want to repeat it even so we gain nothing out of it

I can tell you that you are stupid or that you are very smart
We can argue whole day until this topic will be closed or make it so much blushing with quality it will get pinned

BUUUT still we will get nothing out of it
And THAT is sustainable content

I can go to oro on earth and B**** slap vey hek 100 times per day
But i dont have any reason to

And giving me or any1 else more RNG based means to kill him wont make me want to come back to him
Or try and get best rolls on that weapon where i have so many fire arms that do the work it would be just missing the point

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People have their own taste towards what sustainable content they enjoy. For some that can be Eidolons, Steel Path, Arbitrations, Trading, Fissures, Rivens, Railjack, Sorties or the Profit-Taker. I personally only found this enjoyment twice. Once within the Trials system as a fun daily to grind and profit from good rewards through trading. The other is Riven Mods.

One of the major drawbacks in this game is how content is not sustained past 3 or so weeks after release unless DE has a passion or drive to force the content to be relevant (Railjack is the most recent example of this). Sustainable content also needs to be maintained to keep up with the game's everchanging nature. Barely any system follows this, as well as the common problem where content is designed to be shallow for completion and pushed aside.

I think one of the easiest systems that can be updated to be more sustainable and long term is Focus. Focus is a system everyone participates in after the quest that unlocks it. Adding logarithmic scaling to one skill per tree would be a way for this content to have infinite sink and purpose without breaking balance. You wouldn't need to grind Focus everyday in this change, but you would see something small come out of your unused points. 

Edited by Voltage
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11 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

 DE should remove valence fusion. Not because of sustainability, mind you, but because RNG stats are dumb and we're better off without them. This is probably off-topic, though I'm happy to elaborate.

RNG stats saved this game. Before Rivens, DE had a much bigger problem of vets having nothing to do. There was diminishing sortie engagement, they couldn't release new mods fast enough, meta was static. 

Looter/shooters need RNG. 

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14 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

From past interaction with several Tenno in this forum about sustainable content, I get two points of what is sustainable content is :

1. It's something you keep using
Basically, you will use it in your usual game play so technically, endo, resource, credits and relics are sustainable content.

2. It's made for veterans
Funny thing is, things that perfectly fit their criteria is dismissed instantly with an excuse : I have tons of them as a 'veteran', therefore it doesn't count.
 

1. Yes, it is something you keep using. No, it doesnt mean rewards equal sustainable content. The content itself needs to have the loot constantly updated to be sustainable. They had a fairly good upkeep with arbitrations and they've started to handle it the same correct way with Steel Path, but it still needs to be handled better and improved on.

2. Yes and no. It can be made for both if designed correctly. Like games that have normal and elite/hard mode settings of something. Veterans can ignore the normal part and dive into the elite/hard mode version and get rewards catering more to them. While the newer player may find challenge and worthile loot in the normal tier of the content.

The content should also preferably follow some path of progress that connects with the whole game. Just adding loot to trivial content doesnt make it sustainable, since people will eventually get bored since the loot they get doesnt allow them to progress into the next new content release etc. At that point they just chase loot in content that doesnt engage them or test them. And the only types of games where that works would be PvP games, since the enemy will always test you and bring you engaging gameplay.

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10 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

I don't mind having a challenge, if it's not the same cheap trick many games use to stack the odds as "challenge"

And DE only needs to rely on cheap tricks because they're not interested in tackling the balance.

10 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Honestly, the balance itself is fine. Tanks like inaros or nidus can take damage while dealing mediocre damage compared to glass cannons like banshee is something normal, that makes team composition to be a thing to ensure the team have minimal amount of getting downed while doing the mission and if those glass cannons want to go solo, it's not like it's a suicide when you can blitz through rooms or wreck enemies in a room with one button compared to other games where going alone means you need the highest level equipment with the best enhancement to survive a hit

Mmm no the balance is definitely not fine. It's fine if all you ever want out of Warframe is a cakewalk through Earth, but the game can't support a challenge without resorting to "the same cheap tricks" if things keep going the way they are. Tanks like Inaros or Nidus don't deal mediocre damage, they deal the same absurd damage as everyone else. Anyone can spit out insane AoE damage using a Bramma or a melee. And forget Inaros or Nidus, cheese Rolling Guard and the shield gate and you can make any frame invincible. Or you can play Wukong and be invincible while your infinite duration aimbot plays the game for you. There's no team compositions anymore outside of Eidolons, and like I pointed out there are now strategies that make even that team composition redundant and unnecessary. No one gets downed with any regularity, and if they do get downed they have a pile of revives to just get back up again like nothing happened. And blitzing through rooms with one button is the biggest problem preventing any sort of challenge, because like we've seen repeatedly DE has to counter this power with "the same cheap tricks" like damage immunity/resistance, proc immunity/resistance, ability resistance/immunity, invincibility, etc.

10 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And what the boss will be though? Unless they're armed to the teeth, they might end up like the sergeant and of course, I don't think those names will be permanent

Like I said, I'm just spitballing. I don't have the specific tiny details and I don't care about them because they don't matter. It's a boss fight. It does boss stuff and you kill it. Notice that the little details and the rewards aren't the parts I'm talking about, because they're not the parts that matter if we're talking about building sustainable content. The sustainable content part in this example is creating an overarching system of engaging Invasions, not which platform the boss paces back and forth on or what weapon it carries.

10 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And how do you get the kuva weapons? One drop and no more duplicate on that?

Same as you already get them? They drop, and you get them. And then maybe DE can expand the Holokey system and let you trade the ones you don't want in for tokens to buy ones you do want. And then maybe they could add evergreen rewards and give you a reason to keep doing more Liches after you've gotten all the guns and stats.

10 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

We have valence fusion for that, you can kill liches and still have a guaranteed progress to 60%

Right, and I was saying that this isn't strictly necessary. Weapons don't need RNG stats, especially when DE keeps saying how expensive they are to store. The exact same thing could be implemented in a way that doesn't require storing anything different than a normal weapon, and then Valence Fusion wouldn't be necessary anymore. And remember that Valence Fusion was added after Liches, because they tried going full RNG with Lich weapons and everyone hated having a bunch of duplicates they couldn't use. This "guaranteed progress" wasn't a part of the initial release.

10 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

While it's good, I'll take the multiple weapons for now since it's easier to forget switching the arcane when you only change your weapon

I mean you could still keep multiple weapons and just leave the element on them. No reason to argue against optional convenience features just because you personally wouldn't use them.

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9 hours ago, ZeroX4 said:

For example this forum is sustainable content

😂

Constructive
Competitive
Community

Three for four, the forums are indeed sustainable content. Forum PvP best PvP.

53 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

RNG stats saved this game. Before Rivens, DE had a much bigger problem of vets having nothing to do. There was diminishing sortie engagement, they couldn't release new mods fast enough, meta was static. 

Looter/shooters need RNG. 

Some RNG, sure. But excessive RNG just frustrates people and makes them not bother. See: the Ambassador, those rates suck and I'm not gonna bother. More and more people are getting fed up with the excessive RNG they're expected to put up with, and over time DE's response has been - generally - to reduce those aspects of RNG. Valence Fusion, token systems, Lich/Sister weapon previews, etc.

Edited by PublikDomain
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Uhh, but sustainable content needs to be...sustained? The new stuff is what brings people back to an existing system that they already finished before.
Sure it takes development resources, but not even close to the development resources of a new system.

Rivens would stopped to be sustainable content if there were no new weapons and changes. Kuva liches got sustained by simply getting new kuva weapons, fissures are sustained by new primes.

In my opinion valence fusion was a really important part to sustain the nemesis content. If there was no option to progress slowly, but surely, I 100% wouldn't even have tried to get weapons to 60%. It's just not worth it. Now players have a long grind before them which is progressively rewarding, and it also gives DE an excuse to keep the RNG harsh. I'm still really really far from getting each weapon to 60% and by the time I will, there will be even more weapons probably.

Edited by sitfesz
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23 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

I see where you're going but, looking at Warframe with a wide lens, DE has created the perfect sustainable game that actually doesn't need anything else added to the game. Vets who complain about sustainable content are refusing to accept their own, personal, shortcomings.

I'm a vet of over 5 years and I don't rush, overplay or overextend anything the game has to offer. This, in turn, has always kept me behind on getting all of the gear, parts, etc. The good news is the game is exactly made for players like me...a hardcore casual I guess.  Completionists, endurance, rushframe and copy cat players are always the ones left wanting more and more. DE does the right thing by lightly throwing bones at them because their playstyles are natural leech effects, never enough to satisfy. 

This.
OP is talking about sustainable resource loops, but they are simply part of sustainable gameplay progression loops.

Edited by (PSN)Silverback73
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21 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Fun is subjective. You may find blasting level 1 grineer as not fun, the other may find it relaxing and fun seeing how they die in one shot and in the end, it's back to reward

Isn't actually sustainable, maybe but we can always go full RNG for that, making it "sustainable" where people put it as something you can grind forever on any level of player, finding that one in a million. There you go, a "sustainable" content where players spend thousands of hours in one content as "successful content"

And for me, E Prime is a fun place to vent off after a day work so it's not an absolute "no reason to do it" as you said

Clan dojo it is

Conclave, and we know how this community sees PvP (that makes me wanting to put Teshin's nikana on rank 5 Conclave even more)

Seeing how the "challenge" is most of the time is stacking a lot of limits and negative status and positive status on enemies, that's sort of tiring and seeing how our balance is, it's actually a good thing for those team composition of dps, tank, healer etc but we know that's not acceptable, everything must be possible solo

I'm sure relay rebuilding with syndicate rally is something that can be done, with relay aesthetics depending on the winning syndicate

You're saying winning for grineer or corpus doesn't help triggering fomorians or razorbacks with their construction status? Pretty sure fomorian wasn't coming for months and my region had 2 razorbacks that time

I doubt that would be welcome, seeing how liches have different weaknesses and resistances, making one near impossible to kill if the group happen to not having the correct element

And how do this work, exactly? Seeing how things go, I doubt we can trigger them on our own

Seeing how we get "nothing to do" and "content drought", I don't think there's any online game that doesn't pad their play time with RNG grind and pretty sure the RNG comes from those complaints.

Also, if you remove valence fusion, no more slowly working for your sweet 60% on Kuva/Tenet weapons, fight the lich/sister until you find one

Very solid responses. DE has all of the elements OP asked for, complete with the mechanics too. Sustainable content is not an issue with Warframe. If you've played this one game reasonably often for over a year, then sustainable content was not an issue. Players who have played beyond two years should never bring it up AS AN ISSUE. It just sounds ridiculous to whine about it. With Warframe however, we see 6-8 year vets talking about it. Seriously, think about that: some people have played this same game from a freshmen in high school to a senior...college...graduate, and that person demands sustainable content? That doesn't sound weird and highly unreasonable? Granted, that is a GREAT testament to the overall quality of the product but dang!

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You know, the funny thing is we had a sustainable game mode at one point in the past. Dark Sector Conflicts.

And most people Haaaated it.

Personally I enjoyed it until the missions turned into that weird moba-esque... thing. I would love to see a return to PvEvP and clan/alliance competition, I feel something like that would be better suited to WF than Conclave. Might inject some passion back into the game that's been sorely lacking lately, and maybe a renewed call for proper balancing too.

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Just now, PublikDomain said:

It's the only Second Life I can think of.

Yeah, that was my strong first impression. But then they referred to it as a “theme”, and I was wondering if they were referring to a concept of “Living in a game”, not just SL. 

Heh. Sustainability in SL. I guess that makes sense; it was certainly an endless source of making vehicles and avatars and environments

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