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I'm starting to see the gist of this "sustainable content"


TheArmchairThinker

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On 2021-08-26 at 12:17 AM, PublikDomain said:

And DE only needs to rely on cheap tricks because they're not interested in tackling the balance.

Even many games with balance still ending up with cheap tricks but I'm sure someone will find an excuse to justify it

On 2021-08-26 at 12:17 AM, PublikDomain said:

Mmm no the balance is definitely not fine. It's fine if all you ever want out of Warframe is a cakewalk through Earth, but the game can't support a challenge without resorting to "the same cheap tricks" if things keep going the way they are. Tanks like Inaros or Nidus don't deal mediocre damage, they deal the same absurd damage as everyone else. Anyone can spit out insane AoE damage using a Bramma or a melee. And forget Inaros or Nidus, cheese Rolling Guard and the shield gate and you can make any frame invincible. Or you can play Wukong and be invincible while your infinite duration aimbot plays the game for you. There's no team compositions anymore outside of Eidolons, and like I pointed out there are now strategies that make even that team composition redundant and unnecessary. No one gets downed with any regularity, and if they do get downed they have a pile of revives to just get back up again like nothing happened. And blitzing through rooms with one button is the biggest problem preventing any sort of challenge, because like we've seen repeatedly DE has to counter this power with "the same cheap tricks" like damage immunity/resistance, proc immunity/resistance, ability resistance/immunity, invincibility, etc.

And other games don't have this? Enemies with damage immunity/resistance, proc immunity/resistance, ability resistance/immunity, invincibility etc is still used on games with balance and yet for some reason it's not cheap tricks.

Team composition is still there, if you have enough imagination and more often than not it's made with enemies having weak points not located at the front just to encourage the team composition. Warframe doesn't use that too much or we would see more enemies like bursa and such, not to mention the nerfs when an enemy can suppress you well because people complaining even on higher rank

On 2021-08-26 at 12:17 AM, PublikDomain said:

Same as you already get them? They drop, and you get them. And then maybe DE can expand the Holokey system and let you trade the ones you don't want in for tokens to buy ones you do want. And then maybe they could add evergreen rewards and give you a reason to keep doing more Liches after you've gotten all the guns and stats.

So weapons still dropping with arcanes on top? Sounds too much item to manage than having a single weapon with fixed elements

On 2021-08-26 at 10:13 AM, OneFlyingDog said:

In my years of playing games, one theme holds the sustainability title firmly, "Second Life".

You have my attention 

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15 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Even many games with balance still ending up with cheap tricks but I'm sure someone will find an excuse to justify it

15 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And other games don't have this? Enemies with damage immunity/resistance, proc immunity/resistance, ability resistance/immunity, invincibility etc is still used on games with balance and yet for some reason it's not cheap tricks.

Can we get a list of these other games? Just so we know what we're talking about?

14 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Team composition is still there, if you have enough imagination and more often than not it's made with enemies having weak points not located at the front just to encourage the team composition. Warframe doesn't use that too much or we would see more enemies like bursa and such, not to mention the nerfs when an enemy can suppress you well because people complaining even on higher rank

Well where is it? What content in this game needs a team? A Bursa? You just kill it. You walk up and kill it. It dies instantly just like everything else. You don't need a teammate to draw its fire while someone runs to the back and hacks it, you just murder-kill it like any other piece of decorative fodder. Even Eidolons don't strictly require teams anymore. That's not to say that either of these are poorly designed, they're actually pretty great and we should have more of them, just that the idea that they foster cooperation is laughable.

14 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

So weapons still dropping with arcanes on top? Sounds too much item to manage than having a single weapon with fixed elements

Yes, weapons with Arcanes. It's the same amount of item management we already have for every other Arcane in the game, from Amps to Operators to Warframes to Kitguns to Zaws, with the added convenience of being able to swap elements at will and a guaranteed grind that relies on your skill more than luck. And we all know we can't have that... 🙄

14 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

You have my attention 

It's a sandbox where users can build things and make communities. I'd hesitate to even call it a game, but if we were to make comparisons it's similar to games like Roblox but with an adult focus and less of a focus on games, or VR Chat but with more of a focus on the ingame creation of content. There's roleplay, art, live music, clubs, shopping, home/land ownership, building, scripting, etc. There's also a staggering amount of adult content. It's a great example of two of the sustainable aspects I pointed out earlier:

Constructive
Community

It's incredibly sustainable in no small part because its users create their own content and are an active part of many larger communities. There's not much for Warframe to learn directly from SL, but if we're talking about community interaction and constructive content how about:

  • Changing how logging in works, so you log in at the last hub location you were at (Orbiter, Dojo, Relay, Maroo's, Cetus, Fortuna, Necralisk, etc). This could help ground the player in the game world and help foster the feeling that you're actually a part of it. Super minor, but could be pretty impactful.
  • Adding NPCs to Dojos as was announced some time ago. This could help make Dojos feel more alive.
  • Adding a Dojo Foundry, both for crafting personal items (like a second Forma per day) and for crafting clan items like dojo decorations. This could empower ikeaframe by streamlining decoration funding and help give Dojos a reason for its members to visit.
  • Adding an "adopt-a-settlement" system, where players and clans can "adopt" NPC settlements to fortify and defend. This could give players their own little slice of the world, like Solar Rail Conflicts, and could generate personalized Alerts (Svek got kidnapped by the Grineer again, go save him!), offer passive resource generation (like extractors), special Crew to hire, or a Settlement Foundry for a third crafting lane.

Again, it's really easy to come up with actionable solutions when you're willing to accept that there's a problem.

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On 2021-08-25 at 6:15 AM, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

DE has created the perfect sustainable game that actually doesn't need anything else added to the game.

You sure about that ? Lets see how long will the game last if DE stops adding in stuff , I suspect it will suffer a slow death just like Spiral Knights who been abandoned by Sega and its devs and is now on life support by being kept as "museum" meaning you can play it and spend money on it but it won't get any new releases .

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For me, new stuff (weapons, mods etc) is nice - it does pique my interest to try some of the new stuff, but in terms of sustainable content, that alone isn't really enough. I'm at "end-game", but every now and then I find myself interested in looking to do some missions for an arcane, or for Endo, or Kuva, so I can max a mod and improve my damage, but I end up asking myself: "Why?" There is no mission that I find a challenge, there is no big boss that awaits me. It would nice to have, but I'm not really in the mood to go through a semi-afk mission to get this thing. Games I tend to play the most, the games I tend to come back to, are games that tend to continue to provide a challenge.

Personally I gravitate to games where there are PvP aspects for that exact reason - the challenge remains. FPS games, MOBA's, fighting games etc - These games all have one thing in common - the challenge remains (unless one is a savant that simply obliterates everyone).

For Warframe, PvP doesn't exactly feel great and I don't personally care for it all that much, in part due to the balance, in part due to the lack of actual population, but in reality the "feel" isn't that good, because we get used to having these Weapons and Frames we've adjusted to our personal preferences and playstyles, only to get it all gimped and given this more generic, slow build and frame that can use an ability once in a while. That being said, the sustainability for "veterans" can be in PvE, if PvE was a still a challenge and end-game damage didn't mean simply nuking pretty much everything in one or two seconds.

I'm hoping in the future with raids, or some new missions, there will be better end-game balance: Missions where the best gear would be needed to stand a chance and perhaps, in some cases, mechanics where a coordinated team would be required to beat a mission in a realistic time, for example  due to required angles of attack, or due to the offensive and defensive capabilities required from a team in coordination, so something more than "we need a full team because people have to stand on specific points to open a door so we can proceed to nuke everything".

I'm also hoping for Steel Path versions of Sorties and Arbitrations.

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On 2021-08-24 at 11:15 PM, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

I see where you're going but, looking at Warframe with a wide lens, DE has created the perfect sustainable game that actually doesn't need anything else added to the game. Vets who complain about sustainable content are refusing to accept their own, personal, shortcomings.

I'm a vet of over 5 years and I don't rush, overplay or overextend anything the game has to offer. This, in turn, has always kept me behind on getting all of the gear, parts, etc. The good news is the game is exactly made for players like me...a hardcore casual I guess.  Completionists, endurance, rushframe and copy cat players are always the ones left wanting more and more. DE does the right thing by lightly throwing bones at them because their playstyles are natural leech effects, never enough to satisfy. 

1ab0d28.png

To basically summarize your point.

 

Though, if I'm going to be honest, I'm very guilty of this mindset. I almost have 60% rolls for all the Tenet and Kuva weapons (not all but most of them are done) and pretty much immediately got 60% rolls for all the railjack weapons. But I deal with this by playing Warframe in short bursts and finding other games to play when I'm feeling burnt out. It's always important not to put your eggs in one basket.

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3 hours ago, DogeManX said:

1ab0d28.png

To basically summarize your point.

 

Though, if I'm going to be honest, I'm very guilty of this mindset. I almost have 60% rolls for all the Tenet and Kuva weapons (not all but most of them are done) and pretty much immediately got 60% rolls for all the railjack weapons. But I deal with this by playing Warframe in short bursts and finding other games to play when I'm feeling burnt out. It's always important not to put your eggs in one basket.

The realization is always the strength needed to adjust. Nice!

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Just now, PublikDomain said:

Can we get a list of these other games? Just so we know what we're talking about?

Dark Souls/Monster Hunter : looking at the monsters they're basically bullet sponge (thick health) with high damage and negative effect like paralyze, knockdown, stagger, etc

Doom : basically bullet hell with high damage where staying on one spot means death

Destiny : bullet sponges, invincibility phases, simon says

That's just some examples of the basics that got bashed in warframe

Just now, PublikDomain said:

Well where is it? What content in this game needs a team? A Bursa? You just kill it. You walk up and kill it. It dies instantly just like everything else. You don't need a teammate to draw its fire while someone runs to the back and hacks it, you just murder-kill it like any other piece of decorative fodder. Even Eidolons don't strictly require teams anymore. That's not to say that either of these are poorly designed, they're actually pretty great and we should have more of them, just that the idea that they foster cooperation is laughable.

Where are the bursas from Operation : False Profit where they can suppress a whole team, staying on narrow passages and doorways as choke points, knockdowns that makes you recover slower from that, etc? Nerfed

Where are manics with ability to pounce and claw you down?

Where are feral kubrows that able to bite you and drag you to their den by your legs?

So many things nerfed with high MR complaining about it with whatever reason and things that foster cooperation are more often than not are things that bashed in warframe. Necramech basically a thing that in other games would be something praised as challenge and makes people cooperate to hit the weak point at the back as a team and look how they're treated here

Just now, PublikDomain said:

Yes, weapons with Arcanes. It's the same amount of item management we already have for every other Arcane in the game, from Amps to Operators to Warframes to Kitguns to Zaws, with the added convenience of being able to swap elements at will and a guaranteed grind that relies on your skill more than luck. And we all know we can't have that...

And we don't have that guaranteed grind already, with valence fusion and guaranteed element from progenitors?

Just now, PublikDomain said:

There's roleplay, art, live music, clubs, shopping, home/land ownership, building, scripting, etc.

Pretty sure we have a big portion of it, albeit different

live music : not live, but we have mandachord to share musics and now sawzin if you're feeling to be a street performer

home/land ownership and building : clan dojo

shopping : trade chat

7 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Changing how logging in works, so you log in at the last hub location you were at (Orbiter, Dojo, Relay, Maroo's, Cetus, Fortuna, Necralisk, etc)

Pretty sure we go back to our orbiter every time before we exit the game (alt + f4 doesn't count)

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6 hours ago, Silligoose said:

where the best gear would be needed to stand a chance

And what is "the best gear"? Because any gear can be the best gear provided you know how to synergize them. Let's say I fight level 1 - 5 sisters with Nyx Prime and Lato, does that count as the best gear?

Also, that's usually end up being enemies dealing one shot damage if you're not using full best gear and you still need tanks to take the damage and you know how that ends

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2 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Dark Souls/Monster Hunter : looking at the monsters they're basically bullet sponge (thick health) with high damage and negative effect like paralyze, knockdown, stagger, etc

Doom : basically bullet hell with high damage where staying on one spot means death

Destiny : bullet sponges, invincibility phases, simon says

That's just some examples of the basics that got bashed in warframe

I think the clear difference is that these mechanics are 1) consistent and 2) intentional from the beginning. It's the core, central mechanics these games are built around, not an add-on 7 years later because the game's run away from the developers. DOOM at its core is a bullet hell with high damage where staying in one spot means death. And that's on purpose. Dark Souls is built around fighting big chunky monsters that can wreck you if you're not paying attention and know their patterns. Monster Hunter is built around fighting one monster in a long protracted fight. Destiny uses invincibility, weakpoints, etc. but, at least for the few hundred hours I've played, these mechanics are very consistent throughout the game and are well-telegraphed. These mechanics aren't bashed because they work with the rest of the game. Warframe's mechanics get bashed because they don't.

2 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Where are the bursas from Operation : False Profit where they can suppress a whole team, staying on narrow passages and doorways as choke points, knockdowns that makes you recover slower from that, etc? Nerfed

Where are manics with ability to pounce and claw you down?

Where are feral kubrows that able to bite you and drag you to their den by your legs?

So many things nerfed with high MR complaining about it with whatever reason and things that foster cooperation are more often than not are things that bashed in warframe. Necramech basically a thing that in other games would be something praised as challenge and makes people cooperate to hit the weak point at the back as a team and look how they're treated here

I think there's a bit of a difference in your examples. There are enemies with no counterplay, like Manics or enemies that can grapple/drag, and then there are enemies with bad hitboxes like Lech Kril, Necramechs, Vay Hek, etc.

In the former case, they don't get used more because they're not fun. If you get pounced by a Manic and the only result is you sit there until it kills you then that's not fun. It'd be fine if there was a counterplay like being able to press melee to knock it off, like there's a counterplay to Jesters or roller grenades where you roll to drop them. If getting pounced by a Manic wasn't a guaranteed death sentence and you could knock them off then they'd be fine. If you could shoot enemies with your secondary while being dragged then that'd be fine. If you could incorporate your Operator form when your frame is stunned or locked up then it'd be fine. There are ways to make this gameplay work.

In the latter case they aren't well-liked because the weakpoints are often small and fast-moving. Necramechs, Thumpers, Lech Kril, Vay Hek, etc. These enemies have small weakpoints and the only way to kill them is to shoot this tiny box jerking around in an already-fast-paced game. Destiny pulls this off with their Phalanx enemies, because the hitbox is big and obvious and they don't spin on a dime to face you all the time and the slower pacing makes it easy to respond to it, but things don't work that way in Warframe. In this game it'd be better if it were clearer who these enemies targeted so players could draw their attention and coordinate, and it'd be better if the hitboxes were generous enough that they didn't feel bad to fight. A very simple change that could affect a great deal of enemies in this game is to just make it so rotating to face the player is slowed down and done over time, so players could flank an enemy or get behind them. Or better yet if the game were balanced so invincibility with tiny hitboxes wasn't necessary in the first place. It'd also be better if players couldn't just ignore these enemies and instakill them with certain mechanics.

But regardless, the ones getting these enemies dumbed down and removed are the ones that want Warframe to only be a cake-walk through Earth fighting pathetic enemies. Not me. I want these enemies and mechanics worked on and refined, not thrown away. And we can't have these mechanics worked on and refined in a way that makes them a fun part of the game as long as DE doesn't want to address balance, the same balance that's a prerequisite to sustainable content based on challenging the player.

2 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And we don't have that guaranteed grind already, with valence fusion and guaranteed element from progenitors?

We do have that. Which is my point. It's already guaranteed, eventually, but it still uses RNG that needs to be stored in a special way that DE keeps saying is really expensive. So why keep the RNG if it doesn't even matter anymore? Replacing it with systems that don't require any special storage considerations would be cheaper for DE and could be done in ways that provide a better experience for players.

2 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Pretty sure we have a big portion of it, albeit different

live music : not live, but we have mandachord to share musics and now sawzin if you're feeling to be a street performer

home/land ownership and building : clan dojo

shopping : trade chat

It's really not comparable at all. By live music I meant human musicians. Real bands. Not someone plucking at a crummy midi player, real honest-to-god concerts. The land ownership isn't plonking some premade tiles together, it's full on landscaping and architectural design. The shopping is real shopping, and you can (or at least could a decade ago when I was a part of that community) cash the ingame money out for real money through an exchange program. There are some very general lessons to take from SL, like that community and creativity are important, but the specific implementations aren't something that Warframe can just copy 1:1.

2 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Pretty sure we go back to our orbiter every time before we exit the game (alt + f4 doesn't count)

Right, which is what I was saying might be worth changing.

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vor 6 Stunden schrieb TheArmchairThinker:

And what is "the best gear"? Because any gear can be the best gear provided you know how to synergize them. Let's say I fight level 1 - 5 sisters with Nyx Prime and Lato, does that count as the best gear?

Only if you completely redefine what „best“ means, which I think is cat gopher jellyfish (since apparently we’re using made-up meanings of words now).


There’s generally some room for debate on which Pareto-optimal choice is „best“. There is however no room for debate on whether or not something that is strictly worse than alternatives like the Lato is „best“. 

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For me personally, Warframe only has extrinsic rewards. Sorry, but running a capture mission for the 3224th time is not fun anymore. This is why I play the game in bursts. When there is a new content release, I play quite a lot, but I take long breaks as well.

In this game the weapons have no stats. If they would have, you could build a treadmill like Diablo that allows you to go higher and higher in difficulty where you find better and better gear to tackle higher and higher difficulty again. I am not saying this is good or bad, it is just out there.

PVP does not work in this game for me, so I hope that they put their creativity elsewhere.

Sometimes I think of maxing other weapons than I usually play with, but then I see that I need to polarize a weapon 5+ times and I immediately lose all interest. And how to find out which weapon I really want to play? To really find out, you need to put at least a potato into the weapon. And this gets old very fast.

I am not complaining though, I like WF for what it is. A reward driven shooter with excellent mechanics.

 

The one thing I would really like to see would be another level of difficulty after Steel Path. But not difficulty by numbers (more damage, more health), but by using interesting enemies. What about a sniper in the back that can one shot? Team needs to deal with him before they can mindlessly run into the other enemies. How about an enemy that can CC for long periods of time. So if someone of the team is caught, the others need to free him. You know? Like enemies that require teamplay.

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5 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And what is "the best gear"? Because any gear can be the best gear provided you know how to synergize them. Let's say I fight level 1 - 5 sisters with Nyx Prime and Lato, does that count as the best gear?

 

It would be great if defensive debuff abilities on enemies is part of the potential synergy yes (I assume you speak of Psychic Bolts?), as long as it doesn't become vastly more effective. That is where the balancing needs to be looked at: Bosses shouldn't be set up in a way where full armour stripping equates to an effective damage multiplier of 30, 40, 50+. It is ridiculous, as it decreases the viability of armour reduction that doesn't strip fully (ie corrosive, heat procs), trivializes the engagement and can make full armour stripping mandatory:

Let's say DE decides they want to give a boss 500 000 000 Effective Health Points (EHP). Don't give a boss 14 700 ferrite armour (around 98% damage reduction), and 10 000 000 health to attain an EHP of around 500 000 000, in a game where that armour can be stripped fully, sometimes with just the press of a button. Not only does it weaken the boss far more than it really should for in order to keep the boss a challenge, but it is far superior to other methods of armour reduction, as the effective damage multiplier is x50 after stripping armour. Compared to elemental armour reduction: Ignite (heat status effect) can reduce armour by 50%, so it will reduce armour to around 7300, which still leaves about 96% damage reduction and has an effective damage multiplier of x2 in this example on the boss, while Corrosion (Corrosive status effect) can reduce armour by up to 80% fully stacked , bringing armour down to to 2940, which is still around a 90% damage reduction in favour of the Boss, an effective damage multiplier of x5. 

Give the boss 1200 armour (about 80% damage reduction) and 100 000 000 Health Points instead, for an EHP of 500 000 000, so full armour stripping equates to an effective damage multiplier of about x5, which also to allows for Ignite (now has an effective damage multiplier of about x1.75) or Corrosion (now has an effective damage multiplier of about x2.8) procs to not be as relatively ineffective as full armour stripping. This makes the use of specific abilities/frames less mandatory.

I should rephrase "best gear" to "late-game" or "high tier" gear. Thank you. A Lato has relatively low damage compared to higher tier weapons. people can use things like the Lato, Mk-weapons etc, because the balance of higher level enemies is off, with too much reliance placed on damage reduction mechanics that can be bypassed/negated. Balance the EHP of enemies properly and the Lato could still be used, but it would be less effective than higher tier weapons with greater damage output.

 

8 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Also, that's usually end up being enemies dealing one shot damage if you're not using full best gear and you still need tanks to take the damage and you know how that ends

I don't want to assume what you mean. Please expand.

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7 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

I think the clear difference is that these mechanics are 1) consistent and 2) intentional from the beginning. It's the core, central mechanics these games are built around, not an add-on 7 years later because the game's run away from the developers. DOOM at its core is a bullet hell with high damage where staying in one spot means death. And that's on purpose. Dark Souls is built around fighting big chunky monsters that can wreck you if you're not paying attention and know their patterns. Monster Hunter is built around fighting one monster in a long protracted fight. Destiny uses invincibility, weakpoints, etc. but, at least for the few hundred hours I've played, these mechanics are very consistent throughout the game and are well-telegraphed. These mechanics aren't bashed because they work with the rest of the game. Warframe's mechanics get bashed because they don't.

 

I'll add to that: Dark Souls, Bloodborne and Demon's Souls are made to punish lack of awareness. If you're not paying attention then even low level enemies can kill you.

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16 hours ago, bad4youLT said:

You sure about that ? Lets see how long will the game last if DE stops adding in stuff , I suspect it will suffer a slow death just like Spiral Knights who been abandoned by Sega and its devs and is now on life support by being kept as "museum" meaning you can play it and spend money on it but it won't get any new releases .

I'm not sure it is comparable to Spiral Knight since there is just a too massive difference in population. SK has never had any impressive playerbase, it was just a matter of time before it was going to get put into maintenance mode. Plus with WF expanding tho mobile with crossplay enabled the game will last a long long time. The amount of potential new players is just silly on the mobile side. DE have also shown us that they can keep the game up to date to get with the times regarding graphics. It isnt like the combat systems in WF will get outdated either, so DE really only needs to release fun content and keep the game looking good and sparkly to survive and thrive for years to come.

You dont kill your best milk cow to make a burger.

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I've been playing on and off for over 7 years. And, I just managed to max the rank of the Necralisk version of Quills. I don't even have my own tincan robot thingy. As a working adult (on the graying side), I just take my time and never ran out of stuff to do. Hell I'm still working on the Necralisk family ranks. I don't know why people are so eager on "endgame". In any game these days that allows you the freedom to roam, the "endgame" is what you make of it. It seems to me people are more concerned with checking off items in some kind of mental checklist than going with the flow and having fun.

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On 2021-08-25 at 6:15 AM, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

I see where you're going but, looking at Warframe with a wide lens, DE has created the perfect sustainable game that actually doesn't need anything else added to the game. Vets who complain about sustainable content are refusing to accept their own, personal, shortcomings.

That's nonsense.
Players are just asking for more endgame activities. Something, where  all the awesome maxed mods and other acquisitions throughout the years and maybe a bit of skill are actually needed for you to complete a content, that feels somewhat difficult, but also satisfying to complete.
It's called endgame.

ATM Warframe is something similar to Diablo 2... plenty of OP equipment, no content, that requires them. It simply feels like powercreep for the sake of power creep. But D2 came out in 2000. Since then, many games have improved upon the idea of endgame activities.
It would be nice if DE makes something, that feels compelling to vets.

And no, the request for endgame is in no way unreasonable. Blaming people who bring up the subject, saying "they refuse to accept their personal shortcomings" is incredibly childish and stupid thing to say.
The truth is, that not all of us were born yesterday, some of us have been gaming throughout the last 20 years, and thus we're able to compare between various video games and point out, when a game is good, but also lacks certain aspects, that would be appropriate for it.
 

  

14 hours ago, Currilicious said:

I don't know why people are so eager on "endgame". In any game these days that allows you the freedom to roam, the "endgame" is what you make of it.

Someone might feel, that fishing in the plains is the endgame.
It's just, that some people don't want to have to imagine an endgame, and instead would prefer for DE to make actual endgame for them.

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On 2021-08-31 at 9:54 AM, PublikDomain said:

I think the clear difference is that these mechanics are 1) consistent and 2) intentional from the beginning

Pretty sure we have consistent adding of enemies that able to put pressure on us and intentional from the beginning, with consistent complaining of "fun police", "cheap", etc. and ended up getting nerfed

On 2021-08-31 at 9:54 AM, PublikDomain said:

In the former case, they don't get used more because they're not fun. If you get pounced by a Manic and the only result is you sit there until it kills you then that's not fun.

They don't even kill you, they just claw you 3 or 4 times and leave and teammates can shoot at them (they're similar to hunter from L4D2 so they're not fun now?)

On 2021-08-31 at 9:54 AM, PublikDomain said:

In the latter case they aren't well-liked because the weakpoints are often small and fast-moving. Necramechs, Thumpers, Lech Kril, Vay Hek, etc. These enemies have small weakpoints and the only way to kill them is to shoot this tiny box jerking around in an already-fast-paced game.

I thought people want challenge? There's your challenge, aiming true and fast with AoE not being effective so you need to have good reflex and good aim

On 2021-08-31 at 9:54 AM, PublikDomain said:

A very simple change that could affect a great deal of enemies in this game is to just make it so rotating to face the player is slowed down and done over time, so players could flank an enemy or get behind them.

Those enemies are already have some windows for players to act, and isn't having a small time windows to act and deal damage a part of challenge?

Kril already have his "hammer stuck on ice" animation

Necramechs have their slight stun moment from crashing

And having enemies able to rotate to face you fast enough means you want to bring a teammate to flank or draw enemy aggro. There you go, co-op encouraging enemies

On 2021-08-31 at 9:54 AM, PublikDomain said:

Or better yet if the game were balanced so invincibility with tiny hitboxes wasn't necessary in the first place. It'd also be better if players couldn't just ignore these enemies and instakill them with certain mechanics.

As if games with balance don't have this

On 2021-08-31 at 9:54 AM, PublikDomain said:

DE doesn't want to address balance, the same balance that's a prerequisite to sustainable content based on challenging the player.

We already have some challenge, and even you have excuses on why they're not fun

On 2021-08-31 at 9:54 AM, PublikDomain said:

Right, which is what I was saying might be worth changing.

And I doubt it will be changed anytime soon considering it's our own mobile base instead of your usual game where you're someone that able to blend in with the locals and have houses. And having a house somewhere might not be a thing considering a stationary base is more likely to get detected and raided when nobody's home (unless we want that police raid from payday 2 with chance to lose our items)

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On 2021-08-31 at 5:19 PM, Silligoose said:

I don't want to assume what you mean. Please expand.

You can try playing games with usual class systems (warrior, archer, mage, rogue, etc) such as World of Warcraft, and this is the one of the comment of a manga (comic) about tank

"ANYONE who has played World of Warcraft (back when it was good) can see and sympathize with the problem. In raids, the DPS and team leaders are considered the stars of the show while tanks and healers are considered "just doing their jobs". No one ever gives a #$@#$ until the raid wipes, then the tanks and healers are first to get howled at no matter who's fault it actually is. But on the other hand, in a world where there is no specific situations (unlike a game) for tank or healers, then one could look at it as "if we just DPS really hard until the target dies, we won't need a tank or healer". and how many times have groups and raids done EXACTLY that when they could get away with reducing the tanks and healers to bare minimum while loading up on DPS as if that solves EVERYTHING...?"

"The tank is a vital role in any adventurer party becaus eof their ability to get aggro, eat damage, and live to tell the tale. They are quite literally the fortress that protects the cannons and archers from outside attacks, so getting rid of that role is not only idiotic, but incredibly risky for the whole party due to how weak Main DPS units are in terms of defense. Moron!"

basically if you don't have tanks, you better have good dodge/evasion stat to avoid getting hit or you have to be nimble enough if the game battle isn't relying on stats to determine you get a hit or not which is rarely available compared to warframe where you can blitz away to safety.

In games like these, tanks have higher health than the rest and their armor is the heaviest, having the biggest amount of armor/defense and focused on increasing health or defense even further. Also, their skills are mostly around their job, tanking damage and drawing aggro from enemies so DPS or other class can battle without much disturbance and CC to make the party last longer.

Do we really want that kind of change in warframe?

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1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Pretty sure we have consistent adding of enemies that able to put pressure on us and intentional from the beginning

And the enemies that could put pressure on players in 2015 are now no longer able to do so. DE has to keep upping the ante with new systems and mechanics to be able to counter the players ever-growing power, systems and mechanics which weren't part of the core design. That's why these mechanics don't feel right in this game despite being used in others: because they've been tacked on after the fact instead of being integrated into and building off of the core design.

1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

They don't even kill you, they just claw you 3 or 4 times and leave and teammates can shoot at them (they're similar to hunter from L4D2 so they're not fun now?)

Do they? It's been a long time since I've been pounced, but I remember them being a death sentence. That was, like, 5 or 6 years ago, so take that with a grain of salt. Back then enemies of all types could actually kill you, while nowadays we're all basically immortal.

And maybe you didn't understand me about the "fun" bit, so I'll try and explain it more: no, the way they are right now isn't really fun - because there's no counterplay. There's no interaction. Nothing happens. You don't do anything. If there was counterplay they'd be great and maybe we could have more of them. A manic pounces you, and you hop out into Operator Mode and melt its face. Or you punch it off. Or a teammate slams it. That'd be great, but that's not what they do.

1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

I thought people want challenge? There's your challenge, aiming true and fast with AoE not being effective so you need to have good reflex and good aim

What challenge? A teammate using Wukdong to one-shot the Necramech? Slowly whittling away at a Thumper that couldn't kill you even if you cut your hands off and lit your keyboard on fire? Hitting Lech Kril's backpack once and waiting around doing nothing until he does his move so you can hit him once until he lights himself on fire and you hit him once and he dies? These aren't challenging to fight. Either they can be cheesed and have any semblance of challenge entirely removed, or they aren't difficult to begin with and are nothing but a glorified timer.

1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Those enemies are already have some windows for players to act, and isn't having a small time windows to act and deal damage a part of challenge?

Yes, and there should be more of it. Making it so enemies rotate over time might create more of those windows, especially for larger enemies that require the player to flank them like Thumpers.

1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

We already have some challenge, and even you have excuses on why they're not fun

Again - what challenge? This game is not challenging.

1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And I doubt it will be changed anytime soon considering it's our own mobile base instead of your usual game where you're someone that able to blend in with the locals and have houses. And having a house somewhere might not be a thing considering a stationary base is more likely to get detected and raided when nobody's home (unless we want that police raid from payday 2 with chance to lose our items)

... I'm sorry, wut?

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3 hours ago, (PSN)DoctorWho_90250 said:

Maybe ArmChairThinker was referencing MMOs where we can buy houses? Or maybe games that allow us to have stationary bases (re: Torchlight 3, Hades, Bastion, Fallout 4)?
 

Probably, but idk what that has to do with what I was talking about lol

Edit: Though actually, the stuff he mentions about enemies attacking your home could definitely foster sustainable gameplay. I briefly mentioned my adopt-a-settlement idea earlier in this thread, which could definitely have some defensive gameplay elements. Like your settlement is being attacked and you get a personalized Alert to go help. If you don't make it in time then you have stuff to rebuild or reinforce, and if you repel the attack the Alert morphs into a chained Alert sort of like a Sortie and you hunt down whoever attacked your settlement. That'd certainly be a sustainable gameplay loop. Still has nothing to do with having different login locations, but it's not the bad thing Armchair seems to think it is. The opposite, really.

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12 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

You can try playing games with usual class systems (warrior, archer, mage, rogue, etc) such as World of Warcraft, and this is the one of the comment of a manga (comic) about tank

"ANYONE who has played World of Warcraft (back when it was good) can see and sympathize with the problem. In raids, the DPS and team leaders are considered the stars of the show while tanks and healers are considered "just doing their jobs". No one ever gives a #$@#$ until the raid wipes, then the tanks and healers are first to get howled at no matter who's fault it actually is. But on the other hand, in a world where there is no specific situations (unlike a game) for tank or healers, then one could look at it as "if we just DPS really hard until the target dies, we won't need a tank or healer". and how many times have groups and raids done EXACTLY that when they could get away with reducing the tanks and healers to bare minimum while loading up on DPS as if that solves EVERYTHING...?"

"The tank is a vital role in any adventurer party becaus eof their ability to get aggro, eat damage, and live to tell the tale. They are quite literally the fortress that protects the cannons and archers from outside attacks, so getting rid of that role is not only idiotic, but incredibly risky for the whole party due to how weak Main DPS units are in terms of defense. Moron!"

basically if you don't have tanks, you better have good dodge/evasion stat to avoid getting hit or you have to be nimble enough if the game battle isn't relying on stats to determine you get a hit or not which is rarely available compared to warframe where you can blitz away to safety.

In games like these, tanks have higher health than the rest and their armor is the heaviest, having the biggest amount of armor/defense and focused on increasing health or defense even further. Also, their skills are mostly around their job, tanking damage and drawing aggro from enemies so DPS or other class can battle without much disturbance and CC to make the party last longer.

Do we really want that kind of change in warframe?

In a word, yes. For some general missions, or at least some future raids, yes, I do. I would like to see more variety at end-game in terms of strategy and team composition than we have now, which is predominantly only one thing: "shoot it if it moves, hell shoot it if it doesn't.". Buffs don't matter, debuffs don't matter, support doesn't matter, cc doesn't matter.

Thinking back on when I was early game, or even mid game, I was happy to see frames like Oberon, Trinity, Nezha, Rhino, Banshee, Limbo, Revenant etc etc as teammates, since they helped with survivability in the form of healing, damage mitigation, status defense, energy filling, cc or damage buffs. Sometimes a combination of these. Now it is very different... if you are end-game, in the vast majority of missions, who cares which frames players bring, which buffs/debuffs teammates bring? None of it is needed. None of it matters. A team isn't actually even needed - as one gets closer and closer to end-game, teamplay plays less and less of a factor. Seems the opposite to what usually happens in co-op team games, or what should happen in in co-op games - usually the better the teamplay, the further you get.

There are precious few times when I see late-game players actually look for a team because they are in actual need of teammates for their damage buffs/debuffs or cc in a late-game mission and in all of those cases it is simply because they place artificial parameters on themselves, usually in the form of time.

The irony of Warframe end-game, is the only objective in this game where an end-game team may actually be sought, although one can still solo it, is a Steel Path Tridolon hunt, which isn't even an actual mission!

Throughout the journey of Warframe players learn how different elements are beneficial in certain situations, how different frames can compliment one another and be more suited for missions, how different weapons are beneficial in different circumstances etc. You progress, you acquire more knowledge, you become more skilled, your weapons become stronger, you grow and you are met with... nothing. The base is there to build on, why isn't there anything? There are no missions once thought impossible, but now they are doable with a team (not a cakewalk, just doable). A few new things is nice and helps with sustainability, but complimenting those new things with continued challenge will be far better for sustainability. 

I understand that not all people want a challenge like that. Some people want to log in, blow some enemies up with the pull of a trigger, feel immortal and that's that. - it is enough to blow off steam and keep them coming back. Nothing wrong with that and I really understand that. In terms of sustainability the new things will probably be enough for them, but the foundation is already there. I'd love to see that built upon. Add a few missions that remain an actual challenge - if there is something to reach for, players who may be getting bored, lose interest, will instead reach for it.

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First time actually reading the topic instead of quick-skimming;

I reckon Warframe has pretty sustainable content for me even when I become a “vet” (what’s the cutoff point?) as it stands.

Long as I can choose my challenge, I’ll be grinding for things I can use, like new weapons and kuva and whatnot, and it’ll be a fight all along the way (as long as I can easily make it a fight, that is). Wouldn’t say “no” to more kitgun parts though

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