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I'm starting to see the gist of this "sustainable content"


TheArmchairThinker

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Am 4.9.2021 um 03:58 schrieb TheArmchairThinker:

In games like these, tanks have higher health than the rest and their armor is the heaviest, having the biggest amount of armor/defense and focused on increasing health or defense even further. Also, their skills are mostly around their job, tanking damage and drawing aggro from enemies so DPS or other class can battle without much disturbance and CC to make the party last longer.

Do we really want that kind of change in warframe?

Probably not. I've also literally never seen anyone ask for it. Maybe you should rethink your approach to this topic and how you somehow reached the point where you invented some strawman about people supposedly wanting the Holy Trinity in Warframe.

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7 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Yes, and there should be more of it. Making it so enemies rotate over time might create more of those windows, especially for larger enemies that require the player to flank them like Thumpers.

We have ways to make them slower so why must they rotate even slower than they currently are? Even there are ways to cheese them, right? Like Wukdong or us being immortal that we can't even die if we have our hands cut and the keyboard on fire so what makes enemies rotating too much for us?

7 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Again - what challenge? This game is not challenging.

I thought you agree aiming in a short time window is a part of challenge so why must we have slow moving enemies when we're blitzing around like rockets?

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7 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Probably, but idk what that has to do with what I was talking about lol

Edit: Though actually, the stuff he mentions about enemies attacking your home could definitely foster sustainable gameplay. I briefly mentioned my adopt-a-settlement idea earlier in this thread, which could definitely have some defensive gameplay elements. Like your settlement is being attacked and you get a personalized Alert to go help. If you don't make it in time then you have stuff to rebuild or reinforce, and if you repel the attack the Alert morphs into a chained Alert sort of like a Sortie and you hunt down whoever attacked your settlement. That'd certainly be a sustainable gameplay loop. Still has nothing to do with having different login locations, but it's not the bad thing Armchair seems to think it is. The opposite, really.

And how does the alert work? Because the last thing I want is seeing my settlement in ruins because I happen to be offline during the attack

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Just now, Silligoose said:

In a word, yes. For some general missions, or at least some future raids, yes, I do. I would like to see more variety at end-game in terms of strategy and team composition than we have now, which is predominantly only one thing: "shoot it if it moves, hell shoot it if it doesn't.". Buffs don't matter, debuffs don't matter, support doesn't matter, cc doesn't matter.

Thinking back on when I was early game, or even mid game, I was happy to see frames like Oberon, Trinity, Nezha, Rhino, Banshee, Limbo, Revenant etc etc as teammates, since they helped with survivability in the form of healing, damage mitigation, status defense, energy filling, cc or damage buffs. Sometimes a combination of these. Now it is very different... if you are end-game, in the vast majority of missions, who cares which frames players bring, which buffs/debuffs teammates bring? None of it is needed. None of it matters. A team isn't actually even needed - as one gets closer and closer to end-game, teamplay plays less and less of a factor. Seems the opposite to what usually happens in co-op team games, or what should happen in in co-op games - usually the better the teamplay, the further you get.

There are precious few times when I see late-game players actually look for a team because they are in actual need of teammates for their damage buffs/debuffs or cc in a late-game mission and in all of those cases it is simply because they place artificial parameters on themselves, usually in the form of time.

The irony of Warframe end-game, is the only objective in this game where an end-game team may actually be sought, although one can still solo it, is a Steel Path Tridolon hunt, which isn't even an actual mission!

Throughout the journey of Warframe players learn how different elements are beneficial in certain situations, how different frames can compliment one another and be more suited for missions, how different weapons are beneficial in different circumstances etc. You progress, you acquire more knowledge, you become more skilled, your weapons become stronger, you grow and you are met with... nothing. The base is there to build on, why isn't there anything? There are no missions once thought impossible, but now they are doable with a team (not a cakewalk, just doable). A few new things is nice and helps with sustainability, but complimenting those new things with continued challenge will be far better for sustainability. 

I understand that not all people want a challenge like that. Some people want to log in, blow some enemies up with the pull of a trigger, feel immortal and that's that. - it is enough to blow off steam and keep them coming back. Nothing wrong with that and I really understand that. In terms of sustainability the new things will probably be enough for them, but the foundation is already there. I'd love to see that built upon. Add a few missions that remain an actual challenge - if there is something to reach for, players who may be getting bored, lose interest, will instead reach for it.

And for what you want as "actual challenge", usually because the players in general being weaker than the enemies and I find that funny because some players want to be weak despite DE giving us unlimited power while people in other games are screaming to be given more power. Apparently people want something that they don't have instead of enjoying what they have eh?

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Just now, Krankbert said:

Probably not. I've also literally never seen anyone ask for it. Maybe you should rethink your approach to this topic and how you somehow reached the point where you invented some strawman about people supposedly wanting the Holy Trinity in Warframe.

Just because you never seen anyone ask for it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There are some players wanting the holy trinity buried in millions of posts and want things nerfed as "balance"

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3 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

We have ways to make them slower so why must they rotate even slower than they currently are?

3 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

I thought you agree aiming in a short time window is a part of challenge so why must we have slow moving enemies when we're blitzing around like rockets?

Uh, we don't have ways to make them slower? At least, not Thumpers. Thumpers rotate at the same speed. We used to be able to slow them with Amesha, but AFAIK DE's patched that out. I don't think Nova affects it either. Which is a good thing, because you used to be able to slow them to basically not moving which trivialized the whole fight and removed any potential for challenge. But now it ignores CC, which is bad because some of the games mechanics have been discarded to make the fight work. But now the weak points that you need to shoot are on different sides, and if you run to the side you need to shoot it spins to face you. You can't shoot the weakpoints if you can't see them. It'd be better if slows weren't necessary to make the fight not* annoying, then the Thumper could be CC'd but it wouldn't be such a massive difference.

jRV7s2XgWrNbHmL2XI.gif

Eventually you'll get a chance, but you often get stuck in this dumb ring-around-the-Thumper that doesn't look or feel good. If you had a team then you could hold its attention then you could avoid this, but what about solo players? And even with a team, there's no clear indication of which player has aggro so there's not much room for team play.

Edit: More on the difficulty angle. Thumpers aren't difficult, despite having some mechanics that could lend themselves to a challenge. The main issue is that they do just about nothing for damage, so while they can knock you down the can't do much of anything else. So there's no challenge, because they can't kill you. And if they did enough damage to kill you, you could just use invincibility to make it so they can't. If they could hit through invincibility and kill you, then they might be difficult but they wouldn't be fun because of the ring-around-the-Thumper nonsense. About the best we could get with the current game's mechanics is a Thumper that can kill you, can be CC'd, and doesn't spin so aggressively to face you. Then it'd be a threat, the game mechanics you learn would still work, and it wouldn't be so annoying. But you could still make yourself invincible or untouchable through a plethora of mechanics so it'd all be for naught.

Thumpers use some good mechanics, but a few bad mechanics spoil the whole fight. Destiny for example manages these kinds of fights pretty well, but it's a game with a slower pacing so players have time to hit their targets. In Warframe the player and its target, at least rotationally, blitz around which makes these kinds of fights unenjoyable. Plus, it looks bad!

HQta8hgvPynvbaYQYJ.gif

Ew.

Though actually, now that I've looked into it more closely it turns out that some enemy stances don't actually do this, so DE's already half-way there. For most enemies it's probably just some missing animations.

ltAyS1iQJIRC3CnuSL.gif

When it's crouched spinning to face me, there's no depth of gameplay. I can't flank or do anything strategic. When it stands up I can get behind it and avoid its fire. This has the potential to produce more interesting gameplay, and if paired with good balance could be made into a challenging, enjoyable fight.

3 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Even there are ways to cheese them, right? Like Wukdong or us being immortal that we can't even die if we have our hands cut and the keyboard on fire so what makes enemies rotating too much for us?

Yes, and these strategies are what prevents the game from ever having challenging content. Making content challenging is one of the many ways to make content sustainable, but balance is a prerequisite to challenge and this game is not well balanced. If we want sustainable content that includes challenge, then the game needs to be balanced first. Otherwise, where do you balance the challenge to? For who?

3 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And how does the alert work? Because the last thing I want is seeing my settlement in ruins because I happen to be offline during the attack

idk man, like I said before I'm just spitballing. It could be a 24hr Alert, or it could be something like the Fomorian or Razorback where it lasts for a few days. And if you did miss the fight then you could just repair the damage. Maybe losing or missing a fight starts a chained Alert where you track down new components for your dudes. That's gameplay, too. And if you feel encouraged to keep playing to avoid your settlement being damaged, then ding ding ding that's one of the hallmarks of sustainable content. Like magic you've got a reason to log in and play, even if you have nothing else in the game to collect.

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22 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And for what you want as "actual challenge", usually because the players in general being weaker than the enemies and I find that funny because some players want to be weak despite DE giving us unlimited power while people in other games are screaming to be given more power. Apparently people want something that they don't have instead of enjoying what they have eh?

Would you be more satisfied watching a superhero (Superman, The Avengers etc) movie build and build only for the climax, the big final battle, to be the hero hitting some random guy on the street, or for the hero to take on the powerful villain?

Would you be more satisfied playing a game like Tetris where you get better and better, reach level 5, reach level 10, reach level 20 and the game says "ok the rest of the game will be like level 5 again", or if the game keeps getting harder beyond level 20, pushing you beyond what your limits were?

Would you be more satisfied playing a racing game where you get more skilled, unlock super cars, drive faster, react quicker, race cleaner lines to get to the most difficult races and then these most difficult races give you opponents in slow, normal cars your supercar laps several times in the race, or be more satisfied racing the fastest cars that still push you to drive very well?

Would you be more satisfied playing an RPG, building your spells, building your attacks, increasing in power and then the final two levels everything gets killed with just a basic attack, or would you be more satisfied beating the game by having to use all you've learned, your full arsenal, in order to overcome the challenge?

It isn't simply about wanting the Warframe to be weak, or wanting what people don't have, it is about wanting the balance to be maintained as the Warframes, weapons and other options at our disposal increase in power. In some cases re-balancing is required to maintain that balance. Final levels, final bosses, highest difficulty settings in games, secret post-game bosses - when balance is done right, those things are a challenge. Proper balance would ensure it remains a challenge while granting variety in strategies, tactics and gear - it is what keeps people playing those games.

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On 2021-08-24 at 11:15 PM, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

I see where you're going but, looking at Warframe with a wide lens, DE has created the perfect sustainable game that actually doesn't need anything else added to the game. Vets who complain about sustainable content are refusing to accept their own, personal, shortcomings.

I'm a vet of over 5 years and I don't rush, overplay or overextend anything the game has to offer. This, in turn, has always kept me behind on getting all of the gear, parts, etc. The good news is the game is exactly made for players like me...a hardcore casual I guess.  Completionists, endurance, rushframe and copy cat players are always the ones left wanting more and more. DE does the right thing by lightly throwing bones at them because their playstyles are natural leech effects, never enough to satisfy. 

Counter point:  I am a completionist and my main complaint is that many of the grinds take too long because they've all become these horrible multi-step processes of layered RNG or massive investment costs.  I want to be done with stupid things like the god awful exponential cost of intrinsics (I am now.) asap so that it's done and off my list.  I want this not so I can scream "content drought" when there's nothing left to grind (though I would argue that grind is not content.) but so I can get back to the various things I want to be doing without there being unfinished objectives sitting overhead. 

They want it to take forever to grind out things like the "buffs" they gave to guns in the form of arcanes because they think it taking forever will keep people like me playing.  Bad grind drives me away.  If I was done with that I would still be playing.  Instead they make grind worse and worse and I play less and less.  I was completely caught up on mastery before the Sevagoth/RJ changes updates.  I had just finished collecting all the mods and I was still playing very regularly.  They did a bunch of BS to make grind worse and make me redo grind I had already done and it drove me off for a while and I don't play very regularly now.

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Am 6.9.2021 um 03:25 schrieb TheArmchairThinker:

Just because you never seen anyone ask for it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There are some players wanting the holy trinity buried in millions of posts and want things nerfed as "balance"

Link to three. If there’s enough of these players to bring them up as an honest good-faith argument, finding just three examples shouldn’t be a problem.

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On 2021-09-06 at 10:55 AM, PublikDomain said:

Uh, we don't have ways to make them slower? At least, not Thumpers. Thumpers rotate at the same speed. We used to be able to slow them with Amesha, but AFAIK DE's patched that out. I don't think Nova affects it either. Which is a good thing, because you used to be able to slow them to basically not moving which trivialized the whole fight and removed any potential for challenge. But now it ignores CC, which is bad because some of the games mechanics have been discarded to make the fight work. But now the weak points that you need to shoot are on different sides, and if you run to the side you need to shoot it spins to face you. You can't shoot the weakpoints if you can't see them. It'd be better if slows weren't necessary to make the fight not* annoying, then the Thumper could be CC'd but it wouldn't be such a massive difference.

Zenurik temporal blast? Also, they have time where they stop spinning. Once the thumper plants its legs for thumping attack, you can blitz to the side and blast them while gliding. Now you need to act fast to take one down solo as "challenge" or bring a teammate to kite the thumper, not annoying

On 2021-09-06 at 10:55 AM, PublikDomain said:

 

Ew.

Though actually, now that I've looked into it more closely it turns out that some enemy stances don't actually do this, so DE's already half-way there. For most enemies it's probably just some missing animations.

Give them the feedback for that

On 2021-09-06 at 10:55 AM, PublikDomain said:

Yes, and these strategies are what prevents the game from ever having challenging content. Making content challenging is one of the many ways to make content sustainable, but balance is a prerequisite to challenge and this game is not well balanced. If we want sustainable content that includes challenge, then the game needs to be balanced first. Otherwise, where do you balance the challenge to? For who?

And not everyone wants this I believe. I for one not going to enjoy spending longer time just because I'm balanced so the enemies end up being "challenging" and there's a sea of games with that and I want to enjoy a game where I'm stressed out to kill a boss, warframe is the only game that has it so what is the reason or why should DE make balance for challenge and potentially ruin the enjoyment of those who like the current state of the game?

On 2021-09-06 at 10:55 AM, PublikDomain said:

idk man, like I said before I'm just spitballing. It could be a 24hr Alert, or it could be something like the Fomorian or Razorback where it lasts for a few days. And if you did miss the fight then you could just repair the damage. Maybe losing or missing a fight starts a chained Alert where you track down new components for your dudes. That's gameplay, too. And if you feel encouraged to keep playing to avoid your settlement being damaged, then ding ding ding that's one of the hallmarks of sustainable content. Like magic you've got a reason to log in and play, even if you have nothing else in the game to collect.

That's where you need to consider things. Encouragement that you said as sustainable content can be dismissed as FOMO because you're "forced" to do this or you lose something. We have that kind of crap spouted during nightwave initial release and how alerts are superior

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On 2021-09-07 at 7:05 AM, Silligoose said:

Would you be more satisfied watching a superhero (Superman, The Avengers etc) movie build and build only for the climax, the big final battle, to be the hero hitting some random guy on the street, or for the hero to take on the powerful villain?

Would you be more satisfied playing a game like Tetris where you get better and better, reach level 5, reach level 10, reach level 20 and the game says "ok the rest of the game will be like level 5 again", or if the game keeps getting harder beyond level 20, pushing you beyond what your limits were?

Would you be more satisfied playing a racing game where you get more skilled, unlock super cars, drive faster, react quicker, race cleaner lines to get to the most difficult races and then these most difficult races give you opponents in slow, normal cars your supercar laps several times in the race, or be more satisfied racing the fastest cars that still push you to drive very well?

Would you be more satisfied playing an RPG, building your spells, building your attacks, increasing in power and then the final two levels everything gets killed with just a basic attack, or would you be more satisfied beating the game by having to use all you've learned, your full arsenal, in order to overcome the challenge?

It isn't simply about wanting the Warframe to be weak, or wanting what people don't have, it is about wanting the balance to be maintained as the Warframes, weapons and other options at our disposal increase in power. In some cases re-balancing is required to maintain that balance. Final levels, final bosses, highest difficulty settings in games, secret post-game bosses - when balance is done right, those things are a challenge. Proper balance would ensure it remains a challenge while granting variety in strategies, tactics and gear - it is what keeps people playing those games.

So, let's forget our progession from struggling with MK-1 weapons in the beginning to the point we reach the power to wipe a room with one trigger pull. And I'm sick with "challenge" where enemies are more durable and deal more damage than me.

You want the final levels, final bosses, highest difficulty crap? Why must other players like me get dragged with you when I enjoy the power to wipe the map solo? You can tone yourself down if you want to, or a plethora of games with that thing, I don't want to spend 30 minutes just to whittle down a boss or you prefer more Zealoid Prelate Steel Path kind of boss?)

Where's the challenge of fighting AI with sets of algorithms written based on your actions? Fighting another human is what I would call challenge and we have Conclave for that, or tons of PvP games out there

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21 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Zenurik temporal blast? Also, they have time where they stop spinning. Once the thumper plants its legs for thumping attack, you can blitz to the side and blast them while gliding. Now you need to act fast to take one down solo as "challenge" or bring a teammate to kite the thumper, not annoying

Couldn't tell you, don't play Zenurik. But even with teammates, the ring-around-the-Thumper nonsense still happens. Sure, eventually you get a split second to shoot the tiny panel... or you could just use an AoE weapon like the Kuva Grattler strapped to your Necramech and idly kill it while you watch TV on your other monitor. Like I said,

On 2021-09-05 at 8:55 PM, PublikDomain said:

About the best we could get with the current game's mechanics is a Thumper that can kill you, can be CC'd, and doesn't spin so aggressively to face you. Then it'd be a threat, the game mechanics you learn would still work, and it wouldn't be so annoying.

But then player invincibility would still happen and make this not matter. Until then we're stuck with the current pathetic and unengaging Thumper, with its tiny hitbox and jerky movements and annoying spinning and absolute lack of any sort of threat to the player. It's boring, and it's weak, and it's annoying. The same goes for many other types of enemies with similar problems.

12 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And not everyone wants this I believe. I for one not going to enjoy spending longer time just because I'm balanced so the enemies end up being "challenging" and there's a sea of games with that and I want to enjoy a game where I'm stressed out to kill a boss, warframe is the only game that has it so what is the reason or why should DE make balance for challenge and potentially ruin the enjoyment of those who like the current state of the game?

If DE makes some content that's more challenging for the players who want it, does that mean the easy content has to go away? No. You don't have to play harder content, try it when you feel up to it. In the meantime there will always be easy content for you to overpower when you're stressed out.

That's the thing about sustainable content, for it to do its job of sustaining the game between updates there needs to be a wide variety to appeal to many different interests. Some players like collecting things, some like to tackle a challenge, some like to putz around on Earth and take it easy.

So why should DE only create the kinds of content you want? Why shouldn't they create the kinds of content other people want?

16 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

That's where you need to consider things. Encouragement that you said as sustainable content can be dismissed as FOMO because you're "forced" to do this or you lose something. We have that kind of crap spouted during nightwave initial release and how alerts are superior

I am considering it. If you don't like the FOMO parts, then don't play the FOMO parts. If there's a wide variety of sustainable activities then you can always go play the activities you prefer instead.

And while Alerts were definitely superior for their purpose and Nightwave has been no replacement, there's no reason Nightwave and Alerts couldn't have existed side-by-side. And they are existing side-by-side, for things like GOTL Alerts.

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On 2021-09-07 at 8:54 PM, Krankbert said:

Link to three. If there’s enough of these players to bring them up as an honest good-faith argument, finding just three examples shouldn’t be a problem.

 

On 2021-07-06 at 10:59 AM, (PSN)i7081277 said:

I’ve always really liked playing support roles in all my games, I know they aren’t super popular but I personally enjoy playing as them and feel useful. But trinity just isn’t cutting it anymore. I’d personally appreciate some content that requires more dynamic teams and teamwork, specifically including support warframes. I guess that’s what trials used to be but those are long gone. Lmao, I wouldn’t even mind it if they nerfed her to make room for more variety in the role that she serves. I’d even appreciate some support weapons, as odd as that sounds. I know we have a few already but it’s a tiny category. On that note, there needs to be content that needs tanks for any reason. We have enough warframes in this game that are able to take insane damage but no use in a team setting.

 

On 2021-06-08 at 6:40 PM, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

I don’t agree that they shouldn’t have any damage reduction at all, but their ability to reduce damage should be less than that of a frame whose main purpose is tanking. 
 

That applies to every sort of role as well. If a frame is designed around being tanky, it can have damage abilities, but it shouldn’t be at the same level or better than the DPS frames. 

 

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4 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Couldn't tell you, don't play Zenurik. But even with teammates, the ring-around-the-Thumper nonsense still happens. Sure, eventually you get a split second to shoot the tiny panel... or you could just use an AoE weapon like the Kuva Grattler strapped to your Necramech and idly kill it while you watch TV on your other monitor. Like I said,

I doubt you only have a split second, considering the thumping animation where the thumper stays and makes shockwave rings knocking you down locks the thumper for 3 - 4 seconds and I doubt AoE weapons like kuva grattler can deal damage if not a direct hit to the weak point

6 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

But then player invincibility would still happen and make this not matter. Until then we're stuck with the current pathetic and unengaging Thumper, with its tiny hitbox and jerky movements and annoying spinning and absolute lack of any sort of threat to the player. It's boring, and it's weak, and it's annoying. The same goes for many other types of enemies with similar problems.

Isn't tiny hitbox and quick movement supposed to be a challenge to your aim instead of being annoying?

7 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

If DE makes some content that's more challenging for the players who want it, does that mean the easy content has to go away? No. You don't have to play harder content, try it when you feel up to it. In the meantime there will always be easy content for you to overpower when you're stressed out.

That's the thing about sustainable content, for it to do its job of sustaining the game between updates there needs to be a wide variety to appeal to many different interests. Some players like collecting things, some like to tackle a challenge, some like to putz around on Earth and take it easy.

So why should DE only create the kinds of content you want? Why shouldn't they create the kinds of content other people want?

And how do DE make the more challenging content if not ending up being enemies with 2 billion EHP like zealoid prelate on steel path, seeing how nerfing anything might result on removing the capability to overpower content?

9 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

I am considering it. If you don't like the FOMO parts, then don't play the FOMO parts. If there's a wide variety of sustainable activities then you can always go play the activities you prefer instead.

Seeing how personal housing is quite interesting, I believe someone who like the building part but hate the alert/losing part will start spewing FOMO on the alert in this forum

10 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

And while Alerts were definitely superior for their purpose and Nightwave has been no replacement, there's no reason Nightwave and Alerts couldn't have existed side-by-side. And they are existing side-by-side, for things like GOTL Alerts.

What part of alerts are superior when most of the time it's something you barely need (unless you see 10k credits to add into millions of your saving worth it) and doesn't care if you're active or not?

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51 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

What part of alerts are superior when most of the time it's something you barely need (unless you see 10k credits to add into millions of your saving worth it) and doesn't care if you're active or not?

Gonna respond to this first, since it's a theme I'm starting to pick up on.

Get this: Alerts mainly provided resources... to new players. Endo, Auras, resources, those were not veteran player rewards. Those were for the new guys. They occasionally provided something more meaty, like higher level GOTLs or Corpus Treasury Ships or special one-offs, but the bulk of what Alerts provided was most impactful for newer players. So it's not "something you barely need", what you said really means "something I barely need".

Nightwave, on the other hand, does the exact opposite and mainly provides rewards aimed at vets, like Kuva and special mods and cosmetics and Umbral Forma, while also gating a good part of the progression behind late-game content. This week, for example, has "Kill or Capture a Hydrolyst". This isn't a system built for Timmy New-Tenno.

Nightwave caters to a different group than the one Alerts mainly served. Alerts were better for new players. Nightwave is better for old players. So Alerts were superior - at helping new players. Nightwave is inferior in that regard.

So, like with a lot of what you've been saying, think about other players. You're not the only person playing the game. It's great if you have other games you like to play. It's great if you're happy with the way things are. But you're not the only one the game is made for. The way you play the game isn't the only way other people play the game. There are other people with other experiences and other interests, and there's nothing wrong with that. They should be heard just as much as you.

59 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

I doubt you only have a split second, considering the thumping animation where the thumper stays and makes shockwave rings knocking you down locks the thumper for 3 - 4 seconds and I doubt AoE weapons like kuva grattler can deal damage if not a direct hit to the weak point

Then you should go fight more Thumpers. There are plenty to fight during Plague Star. I've been killing them with a Necramech-mounted Grattler all weekend. The Grattler can hit all of the breakable parts at the same time, and rips through their panels. And the Necramech might as well be God himself for all a Thumper can do to damage one. So you just run around in circles shooting the tiny flashes of green while the Thumper flails around doing nothing.

59 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Isn't tiny hitbox and quick movement supposed to be a challenge to your aim instead of being annoying?

The small hitboxes might be meant to add some level of challenge, but when there's nothing backing that up then the enemy falls flat. There is nothing, not a single thing, that a Thumper could do against a player with two braincells to rub together. And since it poses no threat, there's no reason to be be careful and aim or work together. You're allowed to mindlessly dismantle it with a Necramech instead.

1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And how do DE make the more challenging content if not ending up being enemies with 2 billion EHP like zealoid prelate on steel path, seeing how nerfing anything might result on removing the capability to overpower content?

Making enemies with "2 billion EHP" is pretty much what DE's doing. And surprise surprise, because no one plays the game the exact same way most players find that this doesn't produce good combat. Either content is too hard, or content is too easy. And the amount that it's too hard or too easy is different for literally every player in the game. Pick any two random players and you'll find that what they experience and expect and are capable of is going to be wildly different. It's very rarely "just right", and if it is it's just because you've gotten lucky and landed in the tiny Goldilocks zone. And of course that's the case when there's no standard expectation of power that DE adheres to. For a good example of this you need look no further than Sisters, where some players can't overcome the damage resistance and abilities and others find it easy to the point of boredom. Why should those be the only two outcomes?

So the answer is to nerf things. Player power is too high, and should be reduced to more manageable levels. I know, I know, "but muh easy gameplay!" Relax. Obviously nerfs to player power should be accompanied by nerfs to enemy power, too, and there'd still be easy content for you to play. But with player power normalized, then there could be hard content, too! Because with players brought to a standard, DE could pick "2 billion EHP" and that could mean the same thing for every player. And when they're done you'd still have your easy content, and now I'd have my hard content, and we could both enjoy ourselves. Wouldn't that be nice?

1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Seeing how personal housing is quite interesting, I believe someone who like the building part but hate the alert/losing part will start spewing FOMO on the alert in this forum

I wasn't thinking of it as personal housing, it's probably a different kind of thing. Your Orbiter and Dojo are more for building and creativity, for settlements I meant something more like a persistent set of tiles with allied NPCs to talk to. Sort of like a Relay that can be invaded, like Strata was during the Pyrus Project.

But more to the overall point: yes, people would complain. They always do. Some of it might even be justified, or hint at a deeper problem to resolve! But if it's just "I want all the stuff and I want it with no effort" then I don't see why DE can't ignore it like they usually ignore it now.

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3 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

And while Alerts were definitely superior for their purpose and Nightwave has been no replacement, there's no reason Nightwave and Alerts couldn't have existed side-by-side. And they are existing side-by-side, for things like GOTL Alerts.

 

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

Gonna respond to this first, since it's a theme I'm starting to pick up on.

Get this: Alerts mainly provided resources... to new players. Endo, Auras, resources, those were not veteran player rewards. Those were for the new guys. They occasionally provided something more meaty, like higher level GOTLs or Corpus Treasury Ships or special one-offs, but the bulk of what Alerts provided was most impactful for newer players. So it's not "something you barely need", what you said really means "something I barely need".

Nightwave, on the other hand, does the exact opposite and mainly provides rewards aimed at vets, like Kuva and special mods and cosmetics and Umbral Forma, while also gating a good part of the progression behind late-game content. This week, for example, has "Kill or Capture a Hydrolyst". This isn't a system built for Timmy New-Tenno.

Nightwave caters to a different group than the one Alerts mainly served. Alerts were better for new players. Nightwave is better for old players. So Alerts were superior - at helping new players. Nightwave is inferior in that regard.

So, like with a lot of what you've been saying, think about other players. You're not the only person playing the game. It's great if you have other games you like to play. It's great if you're happy with the way things are. But you're not the only one the game is made for. The way you play the game isn't the only way other people play the game. There are other people with other experiences and other interests, and there's nothing wrong with that. They should be heard just as much as you.

 

I think there's a segment of the playerbase you are not thinking of. I remember when we had alerts, before Nightwave. I remember players hating it because when something they wanted became available via an alert they would be at work or school and therefore incapable of getting. When they'd get home the item wouldn't be available anymore. Nightwave, with all its issues, allows players to spend time and grind for the gear at a more reasonable pace and at their own pace as well.

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Just now, (PSN)DoctorWho_90250 said:

I think there's a segment of the playerbase you are not thinking of. I remember when we had alerts, before Nightwave. I remember players hating it because when something they wanted became available via an alert they would be at work or school and therefore incapable of getting. When they'd get home the item wouldn't be available anymore. Nightwave, with all its issues, allows players to spend time and grind for the gear at a more reasonable pace and at their own pace as well.

Nope, thought of them too. Alerts had some problems, no two ways about that. But the main problems were both solvable with minor tweaks. Most Alerts only lasted an hour or two and that didn't work for most players schedules. So why not make them last a day? Or two days? And the other issue was that vets had no reason to do them, so why not add some harder Alerts with bigger rewards caches? DE could have run fewer Alerts that lasted longer with more variety in level range and payout. And since the Alert system is still alive and well, just turned off, they could always turn it back on again and run it alongside Nightwave.

And if we're talking sustainability, they could tie Alerts in with other systems as well. For example, Scarlet Spear's squad support consoles which allowed players to send care packages to players that needed them. Squad Link was dumb, but squad support wasn't and the feature's never been seen again. So DE could add an "I need help" flare that turns your mission into an Alert and calls for help, with players that join getting paid with some of your rewards. And players in Relays could have a console to send care packages. That'd help build up that "community" thing I've been talking about.

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6 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

So, let's forget our progession from struggling with MK-1 weapons in the beginning to the point we reach the power to wipe a room with one trigger pull. And I'm sick with "challenge" where enemies are more durable and deal more damage than me.

You want the final levels, final bosses, highest difficulty crap? Why must other players like me get dragged with you when I enjoy the power to wipe the map solo? You can tone yourself down if you want to, or a plethora of games with that thing, I don't want to spend 30 minutes just to whittle down a boss or you prefer more Zealoid Prelate Steel Path kind of boss?)

Where's the challenge of fighting AI with sets of algorithms written based on your actions? Fighting another human is what I would call challenge and we have Conclave for that, or tons of PvP games out there

PvE games having more than one difficulty setting isn't some new, rare, outlandish mechanic. Doom Eternal, Red Dead Redemption 2, Borderlands 2, Hades, God of War (2018 release), Spiderman, Mario Odyssey and Fallout 4 are just some of the most successful or highly acclaimed PvE titles that have multiple difficulty settings. Multiple difficulty settings date back to the 1990's, probably earlier.

For some of the games, the multiple new difficulty settings can only be unlocked once one has completed the game. These more difficult modes allow players to face a tougher challenge without losing their progression: They don't have to nerf themselves, the game rises to their level - The gear, abilities etc. players gained through normal mode can be used, must be used in some cases to stand a chance and in some cases scaling rewards form part of the balance. This keeps those challenge-seeking players from losing interest. It increases player retention. Warframe already has such a setting: Steel Path. The optional, higher diffilcilty setting one can play once you have completed the star chart, but Steel Path isn't a challenge at late-game. I would love to see Steel Path be a challenge late-game, or for a balanced new difficulty setting to be in the game that is a challenge late-game.

These difficulty settings are optional - the game has been completed and no one is forced to play the harder difficulty settings. No one is getting "dragged along". For players who prefer using their progression to wipe a room with the pull of a finger, normal mode is still there. You don't have to play the harder difficulty settings in any of those game. You don't have to go to Steel Path.

With some of those games mentioned, I will never beat, or even experience the hardest difficulty setting, but I am happy I have the option to try and I am happy other players have the opportunity to do so, because they enjoy it.

The real question isn't "Why should players like TheArmchairThinker get dragged along?". The real question is: "Why are players like TheArmchairThinker so set against an optional, challenging difficulty setting that others will enjoy?". I would love to know why you don't want others to have that opportunity.

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On 2021-09-13 at 10:28 AM, PublikDomain said:

Then you should go fight more Thumpers. There are plenty to fight during Plague Star. I've been killing them with a Necramech-mounted Grattler all weekend. The Grattler can hit all of the breakable parts at the same time, and rips through their panels. And the Necramech might as well be God himself for all a Thumper can do to damage one. So you just run around in circles shooting the tiny flashes of green while the Thumper flails around doing nothing.

So just because necramech can take down the thumper with no problem they should be nerfed, is that what you mean?

On 2021-09-13 at 10:28 AM, PublikDomain said:

The small hitboxes might be meant to add some level of challenge, but when there's nothing backing that up then the enemy falls flat. There is nothing, not a single thing, that a Thumper could do against a player with two braincells to rub together. And since it poses no threat, there's no reason to be be careful and aim or work together. You're allowed to mindlessly dismantle it with a Necramech instead.

So should they move even faster than now to make them harder to aim? And should the cannons have knockdown so if you don't disable it, enjoy laying down constantly? And considering necramech a thing you get a bit at the far end, what's wrong with being able to dismantle the thumper with a giant mech?

On 2021-09-13 at 10:28 AM, PublikDomain said:

Making enemies with "2 billion EHP" is pretty much what DE's doing. And surprise surprise, because no one plays the game the exact same way most players find that this doesn't produce good combat. Either content is too hard, or content is too easy. And the amount that it's too hard or too easy is different for literally every player in the game. Pick any two random players and you'll find that what they experience and expect and are capable of is going to be wildly different. It's very rarely "just right", and if it is it's just because you've gotten lucky and landed in the tiny Goldilocks zone. And of course that's the case when there's no standard expectation of power that DE adheres to. For a good example of this you need look no further than Sisters, where some players can't overcome the damage resistance and abilities and others find it easy to the point of boredom. Why should those be the only two outcomes?

So the answer is to nerf things. Player power is too high, and should be reduced to more manageable levels. I know, I know, "but muh easy gameplay!" Relax. Obviously nerfs to player power should be accompanied by nerfs to enemy power, too, and there'd still be easy content for you to play. But with player power normalized, then there could be hard content, too! Because with players brought to a standard, DE could pick "2 billion EHP" and that could mean the same thing for every player. And when they're done you'd still have your easy content, and now I'd have my hard content, and we could both enjoy ourselves. Wouldn't that be nice?

Yeah sure, would be nice not being able to one hit kill bosses anymore because balance and crap. Even when things are "balanced" I'm sure those "hardcore" will find things too easy and demand more, if not going ape on DE for "taking their toys away" and make things impossible to do

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20 hours ago, Silligoose said:

PvE games having more than one difficulty setting isn't some new, rare, outlandish mechanic. Doom Eternal, Red Dead Redemption 2, Borderlands 2, Hades, God of War (2018 release), Spiderman, Mario Odyssey and Fallout 4 are just some of the most successful or highly acclaimed PvE titles that have multiple difficulty settings. Multiple difficulty settings date back to the 1990's, probably earlier.

And what's the difference between difficulty settings now, if not enemies having more health and deal more damage than lower difficulty setting?

20 hours ago, Silligoose said:

For some of the games, the multiple new difficulty settings can only be unlocked once one has completed the game. These more difficult modes allow players to face a tougher challenge without losing their progression: They don't have to nerf themselves, the game rises to their level - The gear, abilities etc. players gained through normal mode can be used, must be used in some cases to stand a chance and in some cases scaling rewards form part of the balance. This keeps those challenge-seeking players from losing interest. It increases player retention. Warframe already has such a setting: Steel Path. The optional, higher diffilcilty setting one can play once you have completed the star chart, but Steel Path isn't a challenge at late-game. I would love to see Steel Path be a challenge late-game, or for a balanced new difficulty setting to be in the game that is a challenge late-game.

Seeing how people brag how things are not a challenge and going ape over a nerf that makes steel path trivial, or how people start covering things with other things presented as problem, I doubt people want it and there are still people who get wrecked in SP

Also, game that "rises to their level" doesn't give you power to get 100% more damage and more often than not the gear power rating is just meaningless numbers to gate things away if you're below the requirement and do nothing if you're over it

20 hours ago, Silligoose said:

These difficulty settings are optional - the game has been completed and no one is forced to play the harder difficulty settings. No one is getting "dragged along". For players who prefer using their progression to wipe a room with the pull of a finger, normal mode is still there. You don't have to play the harder difficulty settings in any of those game. You don't have to go to Steel Path.

WIth how things spouted as should be balanced? Sure, lets balance it to star chart level instead and enjoy steel path being bullet sponges as "hard mode"

20 hours ago, Silligoose said:

The real question isn't "Why should players like TheArmchairThinker get dragged along?". The real question is: "Why are players like TheArmchairThinker so set against an optional, challenging difficulty setting that others will enjoy?". I would love to know why you don't want others to have that opportunity.

Seeing how having "challenging difficulty" end up nerfing things, and not everyone on the same level, how can you guarantee that none of the things currently will get nerfed?

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20 hours ago, Silligoose said:

PvE games having more than one difficulty setting isn't some new, rare, outlandish mechanic. Doom Eternal, Red Dead Redemption 2, Borderlands 2, Hades, God of War (2018 release), Spiderman, Mario Odyssey and Fallout 4 are just some of the most successful or highly acclaimed PvE titles that have multiple difficulty settings. Multiple difficulty settings date back to the 1990's, probably earlier.

For some of the games, the multiple new difficulty settings can only be unlocked once one has completed the game. These more difficult modes allow players to face a tougher challenge without losing their progression: They don't have to nerf themselves, the game rises to their level - The gear, abilities etc. players gained through normal mode can be used, must be used in some cases to stand a chance and in some cases scaling rewards form part of the balance. This keeps those challenge-seeking players from losing interest. It increases player retention. Warframe already has such a setting: Steel Path. The optional, higher diffilcilty setting one can play once you have completed the star chart, but Steel Path isn't a challenge at late-game. I would love to see Steel Path be a challenge late-game, or for a balanced new difficulty setting to be in the game that is a challenge late-game.

These difficulty settings are optional - the game has been completed and no one is forced to play the harder difficulty settings. No one is getting "dragged along". For players who prefer using their progression to wipe a room with the pull of a finger, normal mode is still there. You don't have to play the harder difficulty settings in any of those game. You don't have to go to Steel Path.

With some of those games mentioned, I will never beat, or even experience the hardest difficulty setting, but I am happy I have the option to try and I am happy other players have the opportunity to do so, because they enjoy it.

The real question isn't "Why should players like TheArmchairThinker get dragged along?". The real question is: "Why are players like TheArmchairThinker so set against an optional, challenging difficulty setting that others will enjoy?". I would love to know why you don't want others to have that opportunity.

I'm not like TheArmChairThinker, at the same time I don't like Steel Path because I'd rather DE had gone with allowing players to set their difficulty. Initially, DE discussed allowing players to just set the difficulty themselves so streamers wouldn't utilize the Simulacrum in their videos. This would have been great. Players, streamers and non-streamers, could just set the difficulty to whatever level they wanted and have at it. Instead, we got Steel Path. Now, DE could make manual difficulty setting available at some point, but they went with Steel Path so players would have to grind for things because what is content in Warframe without some form of grind. Sigh.

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15 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And what's the difference between difficulty settings now, if not enemies having more health and deal more damage than lower difficulty setting?

DE's approach to increasing difficulty is just upping the health and damage output of enemies.

Another approach, say FF14, is to make the harder difficulty content different to its normal counterpart. This is done by upping health and damage output of course, along with adding more attacks and mechanics players need to keep an eye on so that the fight feels different from its normal counterpart.

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36 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

So just because necramech can take down the thumper with no problem they should be nerfed, is that what you mean?

...

So should they move even faster than now to make them harder to aim? And should the cannons have knockdown so if you don't disable it, enjoy laying down constantly?

Depends. Ideally yes, Necramechs should be nerfed since they're a part of the player's high power. Necramechs are near immortal and can put out game-breaking damage outputs. How much damage does Arquebex do? Last I counted it was like 15M DPS. That's dumb. Obviously. And with players toned down then Thumpers should be tuned up or down to fit appropriately and be a threat. Buffing the cannon, making the phases more engaging, tweaking weakpoints and movement. More of an engaging and threatening land tank, less of a boring and annoying lumpy turd.

Edit: Forgot to add this bit: In the worst case, where DE continues to do nothing to balance the game, then at the very least Thumpers should be buffed in the same ways. Players would still trivialize them using a narrow range of strategies, but at least they'd be a threat more often.

36 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And considering necramech a thing you get a bit at the far end, what's wrong with being able to dismantle the thumper with a giant mech?

That it's boring.

36 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Yeah sure, would be nice not being able to one hit kill bosses anymore because balance and crap. Even when things are "balanced" I'm sure those "hardcore" will find things too easy and demand more, if not going ape on DE for "taking their toys away" and make things impossible to do

Yes, people will eventually overcome challenge with skill. And if DE has a balanced game they can keep adding more and more difficult content. Hopefully with mechanical complexity and not just numbers increases.

On the topic of "taking their toys away", if the game were balanced properly then there wouldn't be such a massive divide between good and bad equipment. By definition, normalizing player power means that all of the games strategies (weapons, frames, etc.) would be closer together in power. Which means more stuff is viable across a wider portion of the game. DE "taking toys away" is literally what they're doing right now by trying to create challenge out of numbers increases, like in Steel Path. With such a wide range of power, the higher DE sets the bar the less there is that can actually overcome it. The higher the numbers go, the fewer and fewer toys still work. And that's lame. A balanced game means more toys work, not less.

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