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Warframe: A Realm Reborn(?)


Lemon
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Please make a poll both on forums and in game for people on whether they would be okay with a complete upset in both gameplay systems and functionality. (kinda like how ff14 did it)

Or at the very least adress if there will eventually be any fix for the parasitic systems or any revisit of core systems, i check back after a years absence only to wonder if I'm just going to check out the cinematics on Youtube when the update hits.

The deafening silence after the blatant distance the dev streams have taken from the playerbase about the future direction in terms of content and gameplay behind the veil of "spoilers" is not encouraging to invest (yes, INVEST) time grinding things for content that wont require any of it or be experienced in one hour with another year long hiatus.

No frame/weapon buff/nerf will fix the core reasons why this game is eventually providing an unsatisfying experience for anyone not trapped in the hamster wheel.

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3 hours ago, Lemon said:

any revisit of core systems

You mean like a year-and-a-half ago when they completely reworked how the basic Melee system works? Redoing everything from animations to the core mechanics of how you use it, to the advanced mechanics of how the Combo system, Heavy Attacks and even some of the Modding affected it?

I mean, it's not like we haven't had similar updates and systems released and re-released into the game an average of once a year for the last 8 years... Core systems that were problematic (like the Key system) being completely replaced. Systems like Mod Fusion being completely replaced. Systems like the basic Movement being completely overhauled. Systems like the basic Star Chart and progression being completely overhauled at least twice over the years since I've been here.

When you talk about 'parasitic systems' the term was actually created for Magic: The Gathering, and refers to a system where, if it was taken out, none of the core game would be affected. What Warframe has a problem with is a form of 'content islands' (where you go to these and they are self-contained) that are more like 'content peninsulas' because there is content in those islands that you can bring back into the main game.

Over time, these are becoming more and more integrated, with more content added, more access being added, and even something that formerly seemed so unconnected to the game (Railjack) is becoming more and more integrated as we go.

So...

I don't get your point? Warframe has evolved so much over time and you're coming in after 8 years of evolution, with potentially another 8 years more that they're planning for and working on right now... and saying 'when are they going to change more?'

'When are they going to upset everything and change the core systems?'

And the answer to that is 'Always' and 'Never'.

Warframe is built around the idea that nothing stands forever and everything can be updated, changed or replaced.

It's just a matter of time and priority. Priority right now, according to the last DevStream, is getting out the next bit of content we've been waiting for, which will (apparently) either introduce a new system, or at least rework an existing one to the point that it counts as new.

After that? Who knows? More change. More updates. Maybe they're going to rip out and replace the Orbiter and Lander with a Hub and Railjack? We'll see.

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1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

You mean like a year-and-a-half ago when they completely reworked how the basic Melee system works? Redoing everything from animations to the core mechanics of how you use it, to the advanced mechanics of how the Combo system, Heavy Attacks and even some of the Modding affected it?

I mean, it's not like we haven't had similar updates and systems released and re-released into the game an average of once a year for the last 8 years...

nah i dont mean like any of that... and outside of post~coptering movement changes i dont think movements ever been reworked, every year tho core systems reworks? lmao you dont understand what a real core system rework even is no wonder you think there are no parasitic systems in warframe 😂

1 hour ago, moostar95 said:

 Just because DE gives off PR about listening to their community. doesn't mean they do. 

I get ya but we all loved the game and its got potential it always had the problem is at some point you get tired of "soon there will be meaningful content"

If all they're aiming for is cinematics then at least tell us so we can permanently leave and not bother checking in with some slight hopes for the game to be made fun past the mid grind phase.

What we do know about DE is they are too scared to remove stuff that people have aquired but lets be real, while we have multiple immortality mechanics and invulnerability phases paired with damage multipliers in the several  hundred-thousand percent range its impossible for them to design a fun and challenging game. This is a call for DE to rework combat, movement and abilities.

Because otherwise were just going to be one-shotting AOE spamming brainlessly with several immortality phases and a death state that's of no consequence. Literal hamster wheel gambling addicts defending the game/devs are keeping it from regaining its former glory of the early stages where still feels threatening etc etc

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3 hours ago, Lemon said:

lmao you dont understand what a real core system rework even is

And you think that mimicking a complete 'phoenix' overhaul that was necessary to revive a game that had effectively nose-dived to rock bottom is something Warframe needs, so...

I think your idea of a 'core system' is so broad that you just mean you want the game itself to be a different game.

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10 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

Do you want to maybe try some words?

Why did you link that, how is it relevant, come on, give us something.

 

12 hours ago, Lemon said:

Or at the very least adress if there will eventually be any fix for the parasitic systems or any revisit of core systems, i check back after a years absence only to wonder if I'm just going to check out the cinematics on Youtube when the update hits.

Better if I redirect them to something that the forums already talked about then to go through it again.

Edited by NekroArts
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12 hours ago, Lemon said:

No frame/weapon buff/nerf will fix the core reasons why this game is eventually providing an unsatisfying experience for anyone not trapped in the hamster wheel.

What is this that you’re referring to?

I’m guessing it has something to do with grinding

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Its sad most people just don't want to face reality or understand the problem Warframe "late game" has. (aimed at the other who i wont even quote shutting down discussion and derailing the thread)

8 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

What is this that you’re referring to?

I’m guessing it has something to do with grinding

Kind of but not really.

Essentially early in the game you don't understand or know just how much power the game will eventually give you, while you are still somewhat "grounded" the game is still fun because you cant use the ridiculous arsenal you will eventually acquire.

If a game like l4d or whatever you could think of gave players a fully auto bazooka with infinite ammo people would hate the game. You would just use the bazooka to kill everything and the entire experience and "thinking" aspect of the game just goes right into the trashcan. (this is an example) The Warframe community has adopted an attitude of "just don't use the bazooka" essentially just placing the developers responsibility in the hands of the players. Its like saying "don't press the button that lets you win" anything you do will just feel bad since you know you are wasting your time when you could be blasting that bazooka.

More concrete to give you an idea of how Warframe specifically does what i am talking about is an accumulation of the things players eventually obtain by playing the game, like i said the early game is fun because you are limited. But eventually you start maxing out focus trees and arcanes, this is where it all goes downhill.

Not only are there speed oriented frames, but you can blink around infinitely as your operator by dropping energy every time you run out and just keep blinking and stay in voidmode for as long as you want. When you get to this point its game over, the experience you enjoyed early on to near the middle is gone. Already when enemies can barely kill you do you start to feel the lack of a challenge but man wait until you are killing a condrix at the highest tier in mere seconds because you have a mesa fully specced for pure attack speed and damage with a 144hz monitor going BRRRRRRRRRT.

The CORE PROBLEM is that if players have literal immortality and damage that outscales enemies in any level (people have already done steel path lvl999 etc) The only way DE can design enemies is by creating bop-em-sock-em systems where you shoot the thing in order to kill, or the enemy outright ignores one or multiple mechanics or just energy leeches us completely with no real indication of doing so. And even then players will tell you this is annoying, not challenging or even threatening.

You cant go back, when you reach this point its over. The Warframe you experienced initially is gone and you are now a Saryn with every mod and arcane made to melt several thousands with levels in the several hundreds without having to put any thought into it. You are blinking around immortal and invisible incapacitating enemies just putting spores on them and deleting their entire bloodline. You are using banshee/mag damage multiplicative buffs with more buffs from an ability you replaced to essentially melt anything you come across.

The essential Warframe experience is GONE at this point and it resembles nothing what the game was at the start, people in this thread saying i want this "phoenix rebirth" to turn the game into something else are missing the point. For vets the game has not been Warframe for a long time, i want the game to be Warframe again. There is only one solution and that is to nerf the everloving hell out of us.

DELETE THE INFINITE BAZOOKAS

DELETE THE INFINITE MOVEMENT

DELETE THE IMMORTALITY

Some people might not understand this, but those who get pissy about it either don't care about the core gameplay of Warframe, or yes; they are only in it for the hamster wheel grind and the only thing they care about is their great collection of shiny gamebreaking infinity bazookas, Just watch them latch onto another semantic or nitpick some stupid thing in order to shut down discourse because they don't want their gambling addiction to be questioned.

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vor 27 Minuten schrieb Lemon:

The essential Warframe experience is GONE at this point and it resembles nothing what the game was at the start,

Well, yeah, and quite frankly, i prefer the current game to coptering and staminabars.

Fun is subjective, and that is an objective fact, which a lot of people need to learn.

And I'm having more fun than back in 2013.

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22 hours ago, Lemon said:

...

The deafening silence after the blatant distance the dev streams have taken from the playerbase about the future direction in terms of content and gameplay behind the veil of "spoilers" is not encouraging to invest (yes, INVEST) time grinding things for content that wont require any of it or be experienced in one hour with another year long hiatus.

No frame/weapon buff/nerf will fix the core reasons why this game is eventually providing an unsatisfying experience for anyone not trapped in the hamster wheel.

They basically did that last year with the "revised" updates.

They decided PvE should primarily be about collecting things. Don't expect much else. When they do introduce harder things in the future, it'll be the way of "damage attenuation" again, I'd wager. PvE balance in this game won't be fixed anymore.

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1 hour ago, Lemon said:

Kind of but not really.

Essentially early in the game you don't understand or know just how much power the game will eventually give you, while you are still somewhat "grounded" the game is still fun because you cant use the ridiculous arsenal you will eventually acquire.

If a game like l4d or whatever you could think of gave players a fully auto bazooka with infinite ammo people would hate the game. You would just use the bazooka to kill everything and the entire experience and "thinking" aspect of the game just goes right into the trashcan. (this is an example) The Warframe community has adopted an attitude of "just don't use the bazooka" essentially just placing the developers responsibility in the hands of the players. Its like saying "don't press the button that lets you win" anything you do will just feel bad since you know you are wasting your time when you could be blasting that bazooka.

More concrete to give you an idea of how Warframe specifically does what i am talking about is an accumulation of the things players eventually obtain by playing the game, like i said the early game is fun because you are limited. But eventually you start maxing out focus trees and arcanes, this is where it all goes downhill.

Not only are there speed oriented frames, but you can blink around infinitely as your operator by dropping energy every time you run out and just keep blinking and stay in voidmode for as long as you want. When you get to this point its game over, the experience you enjoyed early on to near the middle is gone. Already when enemies can barely kill you do you start to feel the lack of a challenge but man wait until you are killing a condrix at the highest tier in mere seconds because you have a mesa fully specced for pure attack speed and damage with a 144hz monitor going BRRRRRRRRRT.

The CORE PROBLEM is that if players have literal immortality and damage that outscales enemies in any level (people have already done steel path lvl999 etc) The only way DE can design enemies is by creating bop-em-sock-em systems where you shoot the thing in order to kill, or the enemy outright ignores one or multiple mechanics or just energy leeches us completely with no real indication of doing so. And even then players will tell you this is annoying, not challenging or even threatening.

You cant go back, when you reach this point its over. The Warframe you experienced initially is gone and you are now a Saryn with every mod and arcane made to melt several thousands with levels in the several hundreds without having to put any thought into it. You are blinking around immortal and invisible incapacitating enemies just putting spores on them and deleting their entire bloodline. You are using banshee/mag damage multiplicative buffs with more buffs from an ability you replaced to essentially melt anything you come across.

The essential Warframe experience is GONE at this point and it resembles nothing what the game was at the start, people in this thread saying i want this "phoenix rebirth" to turn the game into something else are missing the point. For vets the game has not been Warframe for a long time, i want the game to be Warframe again. There is only one solution and that is to nerf the everloving hell out of us.

DELETE THE INFINITE BAZOOKAS

DELETE THE INFINITE MOVEMENT

DELETE THE IMMORTALITY

Some people might not understand this, but those who get pissy about it either don't care about the core gameplay of Warframe, or yes; they are only in it for the hamster wheel grind and the only thing they care about is their great collection of shiny gamebreaking infinity bazookas, Just watch them latch onto another semantic or nitpick some stupid thing in order to shut down discourse because they don't want their gambling addiction to be questioned.

Ah, gotcha 👍 

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To be clear: FFXIV had to remake itself because its on-release state was so poor that it had rapidly lost the near-totality of its playerbase. Its only alternative was to shut down. Warframe is certainly weighed down by a lot of its design debt, and struggles to attract new players, but is nowhere near that critical stage, so while I do agree it could stand to evolve significantly over time and benefit from it, I don't think there's that same sense of urgency, nor does the overhaul need to happen in one go. Fortunately, DE does put aside time and resources to redo entire game systems, as per the examples mentioned above, so while I wouldn't hold my breath for a total remake, I think one can still hope for significant changes in the right direction over time.

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Posted (edited)

and as you can tell if anyone with a brain reads this and read the previous post where i specifically predicted this, these people are shutting down discussion by getting hung up on semantics or moving goalposts

nah the start of the game means the early experience a player has before they start spiraling out of control power-wise

nah ff14 was just an example for a comparative large overhaul and it has no significance to the topic other than being a well known large overhaul

kindly stop posting in the thread if you are just going to be crying about details and semantics while ignoring and distracting from the actual topic

Edited by Lemon
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I'd rather they rework features as they see fit than rework warframe as a whole. I've been pretty impressed with all the big reworks I can think of (melee, endo, movement etc.) and have faith in DE doing things when needed. Hoping invasions and operators/focus get a rework at some point and I feel like at least one of them isn't far off from being reworked. Here's hoping for both, then there wouldn't be much left that I think should be reworked drastically (except some bosses and maybe some frames and preferably just synergy reworks), if anything. 

Edited by NecroPed
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If you really think "immortality", lack of severe ammo restrictions, and lack of movement restrictions is where imbalance comes from, then it's a good thing you aren't a part of any balance.

Your comparison is Warframe vs Generic Shooter, and you're looking at Warframe from that view point. High mobility and infinite ammo isn't even unique to Warframe, especially not in 2021. Other games have already presented enough of a challenge for people while having two of the things you claim are problematic. 

Warframe has near unrestrictive ability usage for general play, and this is more of an issue than damage dealt, because damage can be dealt with easily, where as ability spam is only dealt with through immunity to it.

It's also not as if early game is even remotely balanced either. The majority of enemies are non-threatening and many spend more time hiding than actually trying to kill you. The difference between an equipped Warframe on a new account and a fully equipped Warframe in SP just comes down to how frequently abilities get used. Struggling to survive at any stage in the game is only due to lack of experience with Warframe's combat and not due to "lack of power" in early stages; as these very people still die later on if they don't improve regardless.

You can just not use Operator, not use Arcanes, and not use any "over powered" Warframe/Weapon yourself, and you'll see the game isn't magically higher in difficulty. It doesn't matter how you weaken players if the game doesn't have any mechanical difficulty to its instances. This is why any enemies that takes too long get labeled "bullet sponges", they often are just basic enemies but larger in size and abilities that are often times more of an annoyance than threatening.

No surprise that it didn't take op that many responses to already say anyone that disagrees is a brain dead addict.

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34 minutes ago, Lemon said:

and as you can tell if anyone with a brain reads this and read the previous post where i specifically predicted this, these people are shutting down discussion by getting hung up on semantics or moving goalposts

...

Just fyi, I'm not trying to shut down the discussion. In fact, I'd rather have a better balanced game than the mess we have now. And I'd be one who would vote in favour of a complete overhaul. I just don't think it's going to happen, ever (or at least until Warframe 2 and they botch that up that the same way 😅).

Just trying to be realistic here, in the end.

Edited by Kontrollo
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21 minutes ago, NecroPed said:

I'd rather they rework features as they see fit than rework warframe as a whole. I've been pretty impressed with all the big reworks I can think of (melee, endo, movement etc.) and have faith in DE doing things when needed. Hoping invasions and operators/focus get a rework at some point and I feel like at least one of them isn't far off from being reworked. Here's hoping for both, then there wouldn't be much left that I think should be reworked drastically (except some bosses and maybe some frames and preferably just synergy reworks), if anything. 

Yeah because switching up the focus/operators is going to change arcane+ability+mod combos with numbers that have spiraled out of control and a movement system where you ctrl-space across the map into cover in a second

3 minutes ago, Yamazuki said:

You can just not use Operator, not use Arcanes, and not use any "over powered" Warframe/Weapon yourself, and you'll see the game isn't magically higher in difficulty. It doesn't matter how you weaken players if the game doesn't have any mechanical difficulty to its instances.

You dont have to deal with mechanics if you have broken mobility and multiple recovery mechanics with even shieldgating being even more of a training wheel, you are contradicting yourself and agreeing with me while also saying i dont know what im talking about. 

Weird personal attack on my ability to discern issues with a system while knowing nothing about me or my history with the game but ok.

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1 hour ago, Lemon said:

nah ff14 was just an example for a comparative large overhaul and it has no significance to the topic other than being a well known large overhaul

The context behind FFXIV is precisely what led to its overhaul though. No game is going to completely remake itself on the spot unless it absolutely has to. Similarly, settling for nothing less than a total remake in a single go, rather than the progressive yet large updates Warframe is known for, is just making the perfect the enemy of the good. I'm definitely with you there that Warframe has some serious systemic issues, and its balance at higher levels is completely screwed up, though even then, breaking those systemic issues into components that could then be discussed and addressed would make for much more productive feedback than a blanket request to fix "systems" in general. I would also personally disagree with removing infinite ammo or movement, as the game isn't really fun when it's about resource management, and its parkour I'd argue is one of its biggest selling points.

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Just now, Lemon said:

You dont have to deal with mechanics if you have broken mobility and multiple recovery mechanics with even shieldgating being even more of a training wheel, you are contradicting yourself and agreeing with me while also saying i dont know what im talking about. 

Not using Operator removes most of what you complained about. You mentioned "broken mobility" and "invulnerability" as Operator. Never using operator unless the game requires you to, doesn't make the game harder.

You can restrict yourself to base Excalibur and a single target weapon [with low damage], and the game doesn't get harder. Well, there goes your other complaint [high damage].

There are no "mechanics" to bypass with mobility or sustain. The overwhelming majority of enemies operate with the basic principle of dealing damage with either a melee weapon or a projectile. Hoping an enemy doesn't land a single shot isn't "mechanic difficulty", which is what led to shield-gate because DE can't be bothered to have enemies do more than just mindlessly shoot for high amounts of damage.

We already had a "boss" where Warframe/Operator/Weapons weren't relevant to completion, and the 1 shot attack bypassed shield gate entirely. The instance was still basic and simplistic and offered no real challenge.

DE doesn't design complex enemies or encounters, we could have a mission that prevents Operator usage, health sustain, shield-gate, disables all mobility but basic sprint, and abilities, and the mission still wouldn't be "difficult". It would just be slow

You also see simplistic design when it comes to encouraging playing with others.

There's Railjack and Necramech as other types of combat where DE could have had slower combat. However, other than their movement feeling slower, they still both ended up being content based on quickly killing groups of enemies. Railjack has a set of abilities that utilize cooldowns, and DE could have had every part of Railjack use cooldowns. Instead DE stuck with energy for damage, only to them allow for more spam later on.

59 minutes ago, Lemon said:

Weird personal attack on my ability to discern issues with a system while knowing nothing about me or my history with the game but ok.

Being thankful DE doesn't listen to everyone isn't personal, let alone a personal attack.

On the other hand, dismissing anyone who disagrees with the idea they lack a brain [is stupid] or are suffering from an addiction [poor mental health], would be.

 

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🤔 Lately I wouldn’t mind seeing our overpower capabilities squashed into the ground. Everyone’s health capacity, damage capacity, energy capacity ground into dust. Might make utility Warframes shine a little more if the scope wasn’t so vast

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Spoiler

blah blah derail thread i you dont know anything bad balance wah wah misconstrued argument strawman goalposts blasted to space blah blah personal integrity question point disregarded i am morally superior blah blah

1 hour ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

🤔 Lately I wouldn’t mind seeing our overpower capabilities squashed into the ground. Everyone’s health capacity, damage capacity, energy capacity ground into dust. Might make utility Warframes shine a little more if the scope wasn’t so vast

Hell yeah dude. Imagine just reigning in the abilities, would mean that they could design them from the ground up to be pvp compatible and obtain an entire player interest area they have failed at for years.

59 minutes ago, mrEkli said:

They could even use this whole New War event thing to flatten everything and make things fresh and rebalanced. Didn't FFXIV use an apocolyptic event to do Realm Reborn?

Yeah the lore right now makes it pretty easy to work something like this in. The hype would be massive for sure.

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As much as I'd love a properly balanced "Warframe 2" (or however you wanna call it), with more solid and streamlined damage math that doesn't break and fall apart everytime DE releases something new because it's such a mess of spaguetti code (WF is more glitchy than any other AA live service game I know of), I just don't see it happening. It'd take a monumental effort to revamp the entire game/combat, and as it is, devs can barely seem to hit their deadlines with big content updates a couple times per year (while other games do it 4x per year).

More importantly, WF seems to be doing perfectly fine with how things are, commercially. It found its niche with the hyper casual crowd that wants the extreme power fantasy of pressing one button to wipe maps in flashy glittery explosions while watching netflix on a second screen. While your damage on the same weapon can go from a few thousand to several billion by just having the game knowledge to stack enough multipliers and abuse some of the broken math. But apparently that's fine to most everyone playing Warframe. Devs are making enough money to keep the game going and they can focus on releasing the next big update that'll be the next cash influx instead of worrying about a complete revamp. 

I mean yea, they "rework" some systems from time to time (they did it for melee last), but it's all more superficial than anything. It doesn't actually touch the underlying problems, and many times actually make it worse. And as I said above, I don't think neither the devs nor most of the player base even consider there are problems at all. It's fine if you have multiple types of immortality and invulnerabilities available to you at a button press and enough AoE damage to wipe entire rooms of level cap enemies, this is the game. It's kind of a godhood simulation game, if you will. As if we were playing the greek gods ravaging villages full of mortal peasants for example. Which is a perfectly valid game, I guess. Personally, not my cup of tea, but there's a reason I only play WF occasionally once every year or two nowadays 🤷‍♂️

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6 hours ago, Lemon said:

Hell yeah dude. Imagine just reigning in the abilities, would mean that they could design them from the ground up to be pvp compatible and obtain an entire player interest area they have failed at for years.

Wouldn’t mind seeing some PvP in Warframe. I’m a huge fan of Titanfall (in fact, I reckon I got a little better at Titanfall from playing Warframe 😋).

Hadn’t considered the PvP aspect; was mainly just thinking Overpowered doesn’t need to be an option. I don’t choose it, mind, but why should it exist in the first place?  Just causes trouble for some players and the game’s health by forcing players who would otherwise be interested in a proper TPS to be bored, driving them away after a certain point, since numbers are the thing we’re constantly pushed towards.

Let’s go stat squish!

edit: And of course, there’s always the fact that a player could be using the bazooka looming over their head. Can be a problem, as well

double edit: Gaw, can you imagine what it’d be like if Warframe was known for having some challenge? 🤔 Definitely food for thought for me, personally

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
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