How to make Helminth better serve its mechanical goal- Subclass manipulation

[Ciennas]

As I understand it, the Helminth system was proposed as a way to bring older frames and underutilized frames back into the limelight and give them the ability to swap out bits of their kit for something that holds up better.

I've done it a few times meself.

The problem that I've seen, is that people went the opposite direction with it like they always do, the little number crunching goobers. Helminth is used to infuse that one piece of universally beloved kit from underused warframes and slap it into their god tier creations, widening the power gap considerably.

And while that genie's now out of the bottle, I have a proposition that could make Helminth a lot more useful to grind for and stock up with, in a way that would I feel help bring Helminth closer to it's stated goal.

Subclasses.

I feel like this is the one area where Destiny outshines Warframe at the moment- allowing the players to swap out their character class on a moment's notice, that changes things from how any or all of their abilities work including altering their super.

Right now, we have these mod cards that take up a slot in our loadouts and tweak the Warframe's abilities as part of the Syndicate system. Excalibur for example, has his Chromatic Blade Augment, which you get for maxing out with Steel Meridian. It's a very useful mod that can help Excalibur hold up pretty well to near any faction in the game.

What if, instead of these mod cards, they instead became recipe cards or infusions that you got from the syndicates to install in Helminth?

Instead of Helminth being able to graft new abilities from other warframes into each other  (initially), it can swap between the augments for the players needs?

(The Helminth exclusive abilities could still be swapped in as they do now, and then Warframe specific abilities could be a higher ranked perk of leveling Helminth, say rank 10)

Each time I subsume a frame into Helminth, it absorbs the frame utterly, and would allow me to feed it Augment recipes for later use with that specific frame

(Naturally, I could toss in augment recipes ahead of time as well.)

as an example

I take my Mirage out for a spin, but before I start the mission, I swing by the Helminth chair to swap out her Prism for the Prism Guard version instead, while also swapping her legerdemain for the Explosive Legerdemain version. I feed Helminth their juice and cookie for the initial augment, and then that ability is tweaked, and can be swapped out in the chair at will from then on.

or

I decide to run Ember in some high level content, and make sure to tweak her Fire Blast to the Purifying Flames version to ward off status ailments in higher level content.

Including a system like I propose into Helminth would still allow the player to use the Syndicate system as intended, and also allow lesser used warframes the chance to come back out into common use once more, and could even allow some flexibility in play styles within a single Warframe to suit everyone.

Any thoughts?

Summary- Give Helminth the ability to let frames swap between their ability augments as a kind of subclass system, and only at higher ranks with Helminth would the player be able to swap in other Warframe abilities. This encourages players to find out all the upswings of a given frame, While not taking anything away from the Syndicate system, at the same time enriching what the Helminth can offer players who use it.

[KitMeHarder]

10 minutes ago, Ciennas said:

Subclasses.

11 minutes ago, Ciennas said:

Any thoughts?

That's because destiny only has 3 classes I believe. If you want a new subclass in WF, you just make another frame. Hence why WF has 47, compared to destiny's 3.

And augment mods don't change an ability 99% of the time, they simple add to what's already there. So what you seem to suggest would just be adding augment mods to loadouts for free (which IMO you should be able to do that with one augment mod anyway), but wouldn't really change the vast majority of how frames are played.

[Ciennas]

I suppose that most of the augments are straight upgrades, but the intent is still to let the less used frames have more chance to shine, while also getting more use out of Helminth that isn't minmaxing the S tier frames.

I guess the idea could use more tweaking.

[Ciennas]

Also, Destiny has:

3 Base classes (3)

3 elements, which split into 3 subclass/ tweaks (27)

and 1 Darkness element build per base class (3), which uses an older D1 style system.

So, mechanically, Destiny has roughly 33 character types, split between the three base build structures.

[quxier]

You should consider few cases:

- Bandaid mods that just unlocks what should be on default. For example I don't want subsume Grendel just so it fixes not being able to press Middle mouse button to "catapult".

- Frames that has single augment. I think in lots of cases people would like them on all the time. So there is no need to swap. For example you may not use Dispensary but having another feature that respawns your Sentinels is beneficial.

- Frames that have different functionalities (e.g. few augments). Now those you may swap (turn on/off).

In first 2 case there is no need to such elaborate system - just merge augments into abilities. And, imho, it's not worth for 3rd case.

[Ciennas]

7 minutes ago, quxier said:

You should consider few cases:

- Bandaid mods that just unlocks what should be on default. For example I don't want subsume Grendel just so it fixes not being able to press Middle mouse button to "catapult".

- Frames that has single augment. I think in lots of cases people would like them on all the time. So there is no need to swap. For example you may not use Dispensary but having another feature that respawns your Sentinels is beneficial.

- Frames that have different functionalities (e.g. few augments). Now those you may swap (turn on/off).

In first 2 case there is no need to such elaborate system - just merge augments into abilities. And, imho, it's not worth for 3rd case.

Ah. I admit to being biased that I feel the idea still has merit, but I see what you mean. I suppose what I'm proposing is an overhaul of all the frames at once, aren't I.

Which... is a smidge more than I thought I was asking for.

I was hoping that it'd be able to roll the old systems into the new systems into a more unified whole, while giving them room to carry on as before, so they'd be able to, say instead of having to do an entire rework of a frame, let them tweak and throw out tweaked adjusted abilities within the framework of an existing frame.

I sort of thought though you could do the Helminth system like I proposed, since the game encourages you to sacrifice frames to the Helminth anyway as it stands, and then they'd have a new base to layer in the framework.

[(XBOX)DragonMan 2700]

This seem's just like a way to make one or more augment mod's innate through the use of Helminth, not actually giving us "subclass's".

Though I do like the idea of innate augment's in some way, Maybe like a single augment slot per frame that gave point's in the way that melee sttance mod's do, that'd be nice.

 

 

[XAN3MK]

17 minutes ago, (XBOX)DragonMan 2700 said:

Though I do like the idea of innate augment's in some way, Maybe like a single augment slot per frame that gave point's in the way that melee sttance mod's do, that'd be nice.

The problem with that is that all augments are not made equal. Some are utility, some are outright dead weight/DoA, while others are direct increase of power and/or build defining. Sure, you can give a free augment to Hydroid or Frost, but you are also giving a free augment to Saryn, Mirage or Rhino.

 

The statement above extends to @Ciennas 's idea too - this is not a Helminth issue, this is a frame design issue, one that can not be solved by an auxiliary system. Any player with understanding of how Warframe's systems interact/work knew this will be the outcome, the overall power curved being pushed upwards rather than the power gap being closed between the top tier frames and the ones bellow them. Sure, I could subsume new ability on Loki or Frost, both of which have at least 2 "dead" ability slots and improve them considerably, but I can also do the same to Mesa, Protea or Octavia, to immensely improve their already great scaling.

And to go back to your original idea, which reads like free, innate augments, do you really want to give Rhino or Mirage free Ironclad Charge or Explosive Legerdemain? It'll just give them a free mod slot to scale even further in power, while the frames that could actually use this push would still fall behind. Hell, you could lift restriction on a frame-by-frame basis, as terrible as that idea is, and you'd still not resolve the primary, underlying, issue.

TL;DR: This is a frame design problem, not a Helminth problem, an auxiliary system will not solve the problem. Helminth just amplifies this problem and makes it glaringly obvious.

[Ciennas]

I will admit, I'm not trying to give the warframes the augments for free. I suppose though that would be a valid interpretation of what I'm suggesting. I really just want to let the lower tier frames have more modularity to their kit to make them more enticing and playable throughout the entirety of the content available.

I did the math, and there are 48 frames currently, and 196 abilities in total. Even if we went through and rebuilt the abilities into a binary switch system, that would be 392 abilities. And that is a pretty large number to go through.

So, in order to fix the power gap we'd have to have some kind of cataclysmic reset. Hmph.

[(XBOX)DragonMan 2700]

On 2021-08-29 at 2:28 PM, XAN3MK said:

 

 

And to go back to your original idea, which reads like free, innate augments, do you really want to give Rhino or Mirage free Ironclad Charge or Explosive Legerdemain? It'll just give them a free mod slot to scale even further in power, while the frames that could actually use this push would still fall behind. Hell, you could lift restriction on a frame-by-frame basis, as terrible as that idea is, and you'd still not resolve the primary, underlying, issue.

TL;DR: This is a frame design problem, not a Helminth problem, an auxiliary system will not solve the problem. Helminth just amplifies this problem and makes it glaringly obvious.

I understand, but based on how You've explained it will need to ether,

1.case by, case tweak/rework,balance of all frames 

2.scrap Warframe for Warframe 2.0 and start over

 

-For the first point we're hoping n, praying for some of the bttom tier frames to get help, and I find it hard to believe [DE] would fix it all (here's hoping tho 🤞 ).

-Second if they scrap Warframe for Warframe 2.0 n, I can't transfer my stuff mainly the attachments,syandanas -_- I'm out that's a nail in the coffin scenario fur me. 

So I share @Ciennas desire for less loved frames to see some action,use,purpose in game but ☝️ I have to ask @XAN3MKif you don't think auxiliary systems will help, what if anything would help in your opinion?

 

[(XBOX)DragonMan 2700]

I don't know if this as been said before, but what if Infusions had dispositions like rivens?

So a Mesa could have a dispo of 1/5 since she popular, and a warframe that doesn't see much use could have a dispo of 5/5

That way the lower tier frames can catch up a bit.

And I nooo this doesn't solve everything, top tier frames still get more powerful in some way, but I thought it would help.

Also if such a system existed I'd like to see the ability to select the frame and infusions whenever we wanted.

And no I don't think this would be broken cause, if the % for the top teir is low enough I believe will be fine. 

[XAN3MK]

49 minutes ago, (XBOX)DragonMan 2700 said:

I understand, but based on how You've explained it will need to ether,

1.case by, case tweak/rework,balance of all frames 

2.scrap Warframe for Warframe 2.0 and start over

 

-For the first point we're hoping n, praying for some of the bttom tier frames to get help, and I find it hard to believe [DE] would fix it all (here's hoping tho 🤞 ).

-Second if they scrap Warframe for Warframe 2.0 n, I can't transfer my stuff mainly the attachments,syandanas -_- I'm out that's a nail in the coffin scenario fur me. 

So I share @Ciennas desire for less loved frames to see some action,use,purpose in game but ☝️ I have to ask @XAN3MKif you don't think auxiliary systems will help, what if anything would help in your opinion?

 

Option 2 is off the table, most likely, as its not going in favors of both DE and the players and outside some of  the balance chasms created over the years, Warframe doesn't need such radical solutions.

Option 1 is the way to go, however it comes with few caveats, mostly on DE's side of things. Ideally, they'll slowly touch up and update the older frames/frames that are falling behind. It'd be done mostly by numbers and functionality tweaking, but without requiring new art assets. While this might not fully bring them in line with the top dogs, it should uplift them or at least bring them in line with where Warframe is nowadays, with as little manpower being spent on this process.
This relates to something that DE's Pablo mentioned during the TennoCon livestream and that's that reworks don't generally improve the usage numbers of a reworked frame. Iirc, Nezha was used as an example - despite the fact that the rework put Nezha in a very good place (and they are still in a very good place), their use didn't really increase. This leads me to another option, and one that DE have actively been using over the years, directly and indirectly --

Option 1.1, releasing new frames that cannibalize the functionality of older ones. Simplest example would be Gara being an updated version of Frost or how 1/3 of Wisp's 1 overtakes the whole reason for Oberon's existence (aside few specialized use-scenarios) This is obviously a contentious solution, as it doesn't help players that like the aesthetics of the cannibalized warframe, but ultimately is beneficial to both the players and DE, as the spirit of a certain Warframe is preserved and uplifted to the current state of the game, while DE get to release a new frame that supports their optics and content release schedule (as long as that frame is well designed and released in a good state, which was not the case with their latest release, which lead to more work for 'em as Yareli was DoA and now needs extensive touch ups to be made even borderline functional/usable)

 

19 minutes ago, (XBOX)DragonMan 2700 said:

I don't know if this as been said before, but what if Infusions had dispositions like rivens?

So a Mesa could have a dispo of 1/5 since she popular, and a warframe that doesn't see much use could have a dispo of 5/5

That way the lower tier frames can catch up a bit.

And I nooo this doesn't solve everything, top tier frames still get more powerful in some way, but I thought it would help.

Also if such a system existed I'd like to see the ability to select the frame and infusions whenever we wanted.

And no I don't think this would be broken cause, if the % for the top teir is low enough I believe will be fine. 

This is going to be a contentions subject and another can of worms, especially if it brings the idea of Warframe Rivens into the players heads. I almost certainly expect such change to send the community in uproar and not in a positive way. And then there's the problem of such shift coming too late into the Helminth system's life cycle - the system's been out for a year now, and radical changes to how people interact with the system is going to rub them the wrong way, especially if some have heavily invested in it and now all of a sudden they've had their investment invalidated. Ofc, it is within DE's power to do this, but it won't win them any favors.

The temporary invigorations kind push people to dusting off some unused frames, but it is not really a long term solution for two reasons:
1) Temporary buff, so at best it'll change things up for a week, before going back to normal.
2) Its a random buff, which may or may not move the needle.
An example: I got a 100%(?) increased duration of Loki last week. Aside a gimmicky Gloom setup, none of my other configs genuinely benefited from it, as I generally mod Loki for max duration as is and only have to press 2 once every 30 seconds. In the case of the Gloom config, it bumped the duration of Invisibility from 20s to 34ish, which is convenient, but largely doesn't change anything significantly.

[(XBOX)DragonMan 2700]

On 2021-08-31 at 1:58 PM, XAN3MK said:

Option 1 is the way to go, however it comes with few caveats, mostly on DE's side of things. Ideally, they'll slowly touch up and update the older frames/frames that are falling behind. It'd be done mostly by numbers and functionality tweaking, but without requiring new art assets. While this might not fully bring them in line with the top dogs, it should uplift them or at least bring them in line with where Warframe is nowadays, with as little manpower being spent on this process.

This relates to something that DE's Pablo mentioned during the TennoCon livestream and that's that reworks don't generally improve the usage numbers of a reworked frame. Iirc, Nezha was used as an example - despite the fact that the rework put Nezha in a very good place (and they are still in a very good place), their use didn't really increase. This leads me to another option, and one that DE have actively been using over the years, directly and indirectly --

Option 1.1, releasing new frames that cannibalize the functionality of older ones. Simplest example would be Gara being an updated version of Frost or how 1/3 of Wisp's 1 overtakes the whole reason for Oberon's existence (aside few specialized use-scenarios) This is obviously a contentious solution, as it doesn't help players that like the aesthetics of the cannibalized warframe, but ultimately is beneficial to both the players and DE, as the spirit of a certain Warframe is preserved and uplifted to the current state of the game, while DE get to release a new frame that supports their optics and content release schedule (as long as that frame is well designed and released in a good state, which was not the case with their latest release, which lead to more work for 'em as Yareli was DoA and now needs extensive touch ups to be made even borderline functional/usable)

Well if they only cannibalize from older frames moving forward, and never create anything new then it seen to me like a, in with the new n, shiny and forget the old trash system.

However if further developments lead to, for example newer innovations to breathe new life in older frames like @Jarriaga's idea of using the "reworked" Wukongs defy as a template for a new ability called "Boiling Rage" for a possible & smiple tweak by [DE] to Valkyrs kit, that would be fantastic. [Idk how to link stuff sry 😥] The gist of it is defy but instead of armor you get melee dmg. So in addition to old ideas combining for new frames, I hope [DE] puts in the effort into making and experimenting with new ones as well, not just for the latest n, greatest frame on the scene but to invigorate the old ones as well.

 

 

 

On 2021-08-31 at 1:58 PM, XAN3MK said:

This is going to be a contentions subject and another can of worms, especially if it brings the idea of Warframe Rivens into the players heads. I almost certainly expect such change to send the community in uproar and not in a positive way. And then there's the problem of such shift coming too late into the Helminth system's life cycle - the system's been out for a year now, and radical changes to how people interact with the system is going to rub them the wrong way, especially if some have heavily invested in it and now all of a sudden they've had their investment invalidated. Ofc, it is within DE's power to do this, but it won't win them any favors.

The temporary invigorations kind push people to dusting off some unused frames, but it is not really a long term solution for two reasons:
1) Temporary buff, so at best it'll change things up for a week, before going back to normal.
2) Its a random buff, which may or may not move the needle.
An example: I got a 100%(?) increased duration of Loki last week. Aside a gimmicky Gloom setup, none of my other configs genuinely benefited from it, as I generally mod Loki for max duration as is and only have to press 2 once every 30 seconds. In the case of the Gloom config, it bumped the duration of Invisibility from 20s to 34ish, which is convenient, but largely doesn't change anything significantly.

 

 

1.-Hell nooooo to frame rivs, not only does increase power gap but it also, Imo would mess with  the umbra stuff mainly if your FR is strong enough then we don't need umbra forma, also trade chat would be even more uhggg...🤢🤮.

2.-No it's not, the system I'm suggesting is to have invigorations use a riven like ranking system, to give popular/stronger framers weaker invigorations and less popular/weaker frames stronger invigorations, in the hope it would bridge the power gap a bit.

On 2021-08-31 at 12:52 PM, (XBOX)DragonMan 2700 said:

Also if such a system existed I'd like to see the ability to select the frame and infusions whenever we wanted.

And no I don't think this would be broken cause, if the % for the top teir is low enough I believe will be fine. 

3.-EXACTLY !!! I don't want temporary invigorations what I want is the abiliy to spend resources and get a buff for a while 3hrs-a day-a week whatever. And if the invigorations ranks are set right, then the percentages of power won't be overly powerful (see point 2) and it will all be fine 😁👍.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bluknight34]

On 2021-08-29 at 2:15 PM, quxier said:

You should consider few cases:

- Bandaid mods that just unlocks what should be on default. For example I don't want subsume Grendel just so it fixes not being able to press Middle mouse button to "catapult".

- Frames that has single augment. I think in lots of cases people would like them on all the time. So there is no need to swap. For example you may not use Dispensary but having another feature that respawns your Sentinels is beneficial.

- Frames that have different functionalities (e.g. few augments). Now those you may swap (turn on/off).

In first 2 case there is no need to such elaborate system - just merge augments into abilities. And, imho, it's not worth for 3rd case.

I agree. Most of the augment mods that have been added to the game should have been reworked added functionality to the older frames abilities. They put the time in already why didn't they just apply it to the frame instead of a mod. I've always had this opinion of augment mods. The mod power that they take away just from losing one mod slot is kind of crazy. I've discussed with a friend of mine for years how I wish that if they really want augments to be mods then they need to give us at least one augment mod slot. 

That being said at the same time again if they want to keep doing them the way they are then they need to be more meaningful. Actually put more thought into them and make them work well for what they are instead of 90% of them being absolutely worthless. Also if they have time to brainstorm more arcanes then they should be releasing augments left and right to make up for how most of them are worthless. It just seems to me like there are those frames that have a lot of augments and then there are others it seems like they just ignore. Like why do we need another Trinity augment?

[Deminisis]

There might be the rare case a rework happens for a frame, but the best business model they have right now is releasing the next new frame.

Essentially old frames are just going to collect more dust while they hype the next big update/ frame/ prime.

Augment infusions won't be enough to bring outdated frames out the closet.

[Ciennas]

I've given the matter some thought, and maybe we could make the Helminth adjust ability strengths and efficiencies? Like make abilities cost more energy but increase range/strength, with 'natural' abilities being able to be pushed more efficiently?

 

As an example. Maybe be able to swap an element for an attack?

 

I feel like the secret to salvaging all the Frames and making them all playable however you want is all here, we have all the ingredients.

[Ciennas]

Or cost range, but increase duration/efficiency, or however?

You guys are stat goblins, you know what I'm trying to get at.

Something that doesn't require them to overhaul the whole of the roster all at once, but also allows them to make them all viable once more.

[Ciennas]

And then over time, maybe as each time a Prime is released, they release a tweak to an older frame by order of release to give them more options within their theme? I feel like everyone could win here.

[Lutesque]

On 2021-08-29 at 7:15 PM, Ciennas said:

As I understand it, the Helminth system was proposed as a way to bring older frames and underutilized frames back into the limelight and give them the ability to swap out bits of their kit for something that holds up better

What 🤨 ?

Nope... The Helminth's reason for Existing is exclusively just for Dumping your Resources....

On 2021-08-29 at 7:15 PM, Ciennas said:

 

The problem that I've seen, is that people went the opposite direction with it like they always do, the little number crunching goobers. Helminth is used to infuse that one piece of universally beloved kit from underused warframes and slap it into their god tier creations, widening the power gap considerably

I think DE already knew this would happen... After all they got to choose exactly which abilities would and wouldn't Transfer....

As far as they are concerned it's all working as intended...

On 2021-08-29 at 7:15 PM, Ciennas said:

Instead of Helminth being able to graft new abilities from other warframes into each other  (initially), it can swap between the augments for the players needs?

With out the need to occupy a Mod Slot ? 

As good as that sounds... Wait... Hang on... Let me read the rest of your Suggestion....

On 2021-08-29 at 7:15 PM, Ciennas said:

Any thoughts?

Well.... It's definitely better than the Mod Based Versions we have now but still just feels like another Bandaid....

Remember some Augments are Mandatory on some Frames while others are completely useless...