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I know how to solve the aoe weapon meta!


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On 2021-08-30 at 9:00 PM, SuperbDave said:

make knockdown resist not applying to self-applied effect. 

I would definitely think twice before I grab the bramma. 

 

 

It sounds like what you want to do is cause people NOT to want to use certain weapons, not fix anything.

Thinking twice before using a weapon isn't really "fixing" anything at all, it just seems like you don't want people using AOE weapons, and wish to create a way to discourage them from using them.

You are also suggesting they need to be fixed, what needs to be fixed about them?  I don't feel they are broken.  No fixing needed or required, if you don't like the weapons you can always run in a group made up of friends that all don't like the meta.

When the meta changes to a different meta, people complain about that meta, and so on and so forth.  It's always been the same, there will always be a meta and always people who dislike this fact.

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24 minutes ago, Nexeroff said:

It sounds like what you want to do is cause people NOT to want to use certain weapons, not fix anything.

Thinking twice before using a weapon isn't really "fixing" anything at all, it just seems like you don't want people using AOE weapons, and wish to create a way to discourage them from using them.

You are also suggesting they need to be fixed, what needs to be fixed about them?  I don't feel they are broken.  No fixing needed or required, if you don't like the weapons you can always run in a group made up of friends that all don't like the meta.

When the meta changes to a different meta, people complain about that meta, and so on and so forth.  It's always been the same, there will always be a meta and always people who dislike this fact.

I think that may be the point; players are forced into the meta in Warframe, so the best option is to force them out of it

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Just now, _Anise_ said:

I think what wow did for the same problem was have aoe scale down so  it did less damage for each additional enemy

So, make the AOE weapons incapable of doing area damage?

How is this fixed, exactly?

They’ll just be added to the pile of MR fodder.

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2 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

I think what wow did for the same problem was have aoe scale down so  it did less damage for each additional enemy

Isn't the point of an aoe weapon to wipe large groups?

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Most people are scared that their favorite weapon gets toned down a bit, I get it. We had dozens of threads, all several pages long before the melee nerf happened, because everyone thought that melee would be unusable after.

This is why we need balancing a bit more often than every other year. DE, if you are committed to balance the game a bit so that at least 30% of weapons are viable somehow, you need to keep at it for a bit of time.

This way we can tone down AOE and make single target more interesting to use as a tactical advantage.

About the guys who say "there will always be a meta, no matter what you do". This is true, but there is a big difference between a meta weapon doing 100dmg and non-meta doing 1 dmg or you are sitting at 100dmg and 99dmg respectively. In the second example, a lot of guys will use the 100dmg, but those who want to use the 99dmg weapon will still have a fun and unique experience.

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1 hour ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I think that may be the point; players are forced into the meta in Warframe, so the best option is to force them out of it

Nobody is forced into anything, nobody is forced to use any meta.  How is anyone "forced" and if forcing someone is wrong, why would you suggest to force them not to?

We play games for entertainment, at no point should anyone be forcing anyone to play with anything particular or in any particular way.  There could be consequences for behaving poorly for example, but to force someone to play as you believe or feel they should?  How is that right in any given way?

It's not...

There will always be a meta, always be a best build for any particular weapon or best weapon for any particular mission or reason, etc.  But this doesn't mean there is only one, for me, sometimes a Kuva Zarr is the best for a particular frame or mission and sometimes an Tenet Envoy is the best option, and sometimes it's a Tenet Cycron.  I happen to like burning down Sisters with a Cycron, but I kill their hounds with a Kuva Zarr and push slash because it works so well.  These are meta for me, but might not be for someone else.

Suggesting you should force people not to play one meta when they would just simply follow a different meta really only amounts to pushing one meta type over another, and perhaps a meta you want more than a meta someone else wants.

Metas always exist, in everything.  In my work, in the equipment I use, in the methods I employ that equipment.  I don't understand this idea that for whatever arbitrary reason, weapons with radial attacks should not be a meta.  You have mobs of enemies coming after you, and what, do you want the meta to be ricochet, as the OP suggested?  Just what, make ricochet radius more like explosion radius so it affects the same number of enemies?

Maybe if we dramatically reduced the spawn, then we could promote a sniper meta, eh?  Or perhaps if we dramatically changed how projectiles functioned, make I don't know, inherent infinite punch through?

In real life battles, explosives are the name of the game, grenades, rocket launchers, explosive rounds.  Not sure why anyone would want to "fix" the current meta, it's so fun.  Makes no sense to me.  Is it that you want the meta to be a weapon that you use, so you can feel okay using that weapon?  Do it, this game is about having fun, use whatever weapon is most fun and don't worry about the meta so much, and if it takes you twice as long to complete a mission, what does it matter so long as you are enjoying the time you are spending, playing the game.

Why does anyone feel they need to fix a meta, it makes no sense at all to me.

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45 minutes ago, Nexeroff said:

Nobody is forced into anything, nobody is forced to use any meta.  How is anyone "forced" and if forcing someone is wrong, why would you suggest to force them not to?

We play games for entertainment, at no point should anyone be forcing anyone to play with anything particular or in any particular way.  There could be consequences for behaving poorly for example, but to force someone to play as you believe or feel they should?  How is that right in any given way?

It's not...

There will always be a meta, always be a best build for any particular weapon or best weapon for any particular mission or reason, etc.  But this doesn't mean there is only one, for me, sometimes a Kuva Zarr is the best for a particular frame or mission and sometimes an Tenet Envoy is the best option, and sometimes it's a Tenet Cycron.  I happen to like burning down Sisters with a Cycron, but I kill their hounds with a Kuva Zarr and push slash because it works so well.  These are meta for me, but might not be for someone else.

Suggesting you should force people not to play one meta when they would just simply follow a different meta really only amounts to pushing one meta type over another, and perhaps a meta you want more than a meta someone else wants.

Metas always exist, in everything.  In my work, in the equipment I use, in the methods I employ that equipment.  I don't understand this idea that for whatever arbitrary reason, weapons with radial attacks should not be a meta.  You have mobs of enemies coming after you, and what, do you want the meta to be ricochet, as the OP suggested?  Just what, make ricochet radius more like explosion radius so it affects the same number of enemies?

Maybe if we dramatically reduced the spawn, then we could promote a sniper meta, eh?  Or perhaps if we dramatically changed how projectiles functioned, make I don't know, inherent infinite punch through?

In real life battles, explosives are the name of the game, grenades, rocket launchers, explosive rounds.  Not sure why anyone would want to "fix" the current meta, it's so fun.  Makes no sense to me.  Is it that you want the meta to be a weapon that you use, so you can feel okay using that weapon?  Do it, this game is about having fun, use whatever weapon is most fun and don't worry about the meta so much, and if it takes you twice as long to complete a mission, what does it matter so long as you are enjoying the time you are spending, playing the game.

Why does anyone feel they need to fix a meta, it makes no sense at all to me.

I appreciate your speech (+1), but I’m not someone who follows the meta 😅. I’ve talked to many players who do, or at least follow meta-akin builds. There seemed to be an over-arching idea that there’s no other option for these players, which is a shame.

edit: 🤔 At least, I think they were meta-akin. In hindsight I’m not actually sure what their builds were, but the impression I had was one of high efficiency

double edit: I would be behind some stat squishes, mind. Nerfs to help players have fun, but I don’t think they’re the best option at the moment, since it will cost other players their fun

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
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2 hours ago, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

So, make the AOE weapons incapable of doing area damage?

How is this fixed, exactly?

They’ll just be added to the pile of MR fodder.

 

2 hours ago, Aguzo said:

Isn't the point of an aoe weapon to wipe large groups?

Reducing their damage to some cap vs groups would still make them deal more total damage to more enemies than single target ever would. And if it worked like melee follow through does then you would still be killing the first few enemies hit which then increases the damage everything else takes from the next shot.

Honestly it would probably be a more ideal solution than direct damage nerfing or making enemies that are immune to AOE. As it wouldn't risk killing their viability vs single targets and their efficacy vs tanky units.

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6 hours ago, Duality52 said:

Remember when DE had a clip of someone using an old Maiming Strike Scoliac through walls in a Derelict Survival?

Warframe is one of the few shooter games I've played where majority of the AoE ignores line of sight check. Coupled with (Primed) Firestorm and/or certain abilities (Gauss's Thermal Sunder), there should be more of proper aiming than just mindlessly spamming explosives whether a red arrow shows up on your minimap.

Have the damage of AoE (weapon and abilities) get reduced or even outright negated if the AoE is going through certain walls. The thicker the wall, the higher the damage reduction. With Punch Through/(Primed) Firestorm, part of the damage reduction can be reduced. However, DE will need to make AoE projectiles ignoring Punch-Through like the Trumna's Atl-Fire.

Something like that would be a good change. I'd be fine with a simple "cannot pass through walls" deal with the AoE effect. Make it inline with melee.

 

4 hours ago, Aguzo said:

Isn't the point of an aoe weapon to wipe large groups?

They'd still be able to do that even with damage reduced per target hit. It would just bring more logic to it aswell. More bodies, more potential things to stop fragments or shield others from the blast. There is a reason why people sacrifice themselves in real life by body blocking things like hand grenades. And it also wouldnt mean that damage would get reduced directly after the first target, there could be a minumum before it starts to diminish, with a cap obviously. That would also promote more aiming with AoE guns, since hitting a very heavy target would be preferable since it would take full damage.

 

 

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9 hours ago, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

How is this fixed, exactly?

well in the case of wow it was a bit different, to forced players to have to crowd control the strong enemies and kill them one at a time then they could use aoe to wipe out the packs.

it didn't make aoe weak to the point that it couldn't clear trash it just made it so that you couldn't just pull everything into a ball and kill it all in a single button press.

I don't think it would work necessarily on warframe just giving my feedback

 

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33 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

well in the case of wow it was a bit different, to forced players to have to crowd control the strong enemies and kill them one at a time then they could use aoe to wipe out the packs.

it didn't make aoe weak to the point that it couldn't clear trash it just made it so that you couldn't just pull everything into a ball and kill it all in a single button press.

I don't think it would work necessarily on warframe just giving my feedback

 

Are you advocating for the same changes to be made to punch through weapons too?

Cause you can pull enemies into a ball and kill most of them with a single Rubico shot.

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5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Something like that would be a good change. I'd be fine with a simple "cannot pass through walls" deal with the AoE effect.

As much as I wish to suggest that, DE's implementation of that onto Khora's Whipclaw was a bit overdone. That can be a nightmare in certain tilesets like the Infested Ship or the Corpus Ice Planet.

8 hours ago, Nexeroff said:

In real life battles, explosives are the name of the game, grenades, rocket launchers, explosive rounds. 

If the military are a lot more liberal with explosives, there will be a lot more collateral damage (infrastructural damage, total life lost, etc.). The real world isn't Warframe; they can't just go commit hundreds of warcrimes on a daily basis.

Edited by Duality52
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AOE weapons were already nerfed with their falloff.

Bramma itself(which seems what you are opposed to) was nerfed multiple times already. Arrow total, how much ammo can be mutated to arrow, and aoe fall off limit. Some might even consider self stagger a nerf depending on which side of the fence you were on(if you liked self damage or like self stagger)

Theres nothing to fix here. What needs to be fixed is you not playing in public games so you want have to deal with what you dont like and trying to force what you like on others.

If you want to add self damage back then they better rebuff all AOE weapons to where they were pre AOE falloff nerf. Either way AOE is doing exactly what its supposed to be doing.

At the end of the day the correctly modded weapon is going to outclass anything in the right situation. Ive seen non meta weapons destroy liches, lephantis, eidolons, etc etc way faster than any AOE weapon could do when modded correctly. Ive seen AOE weapons get trashed by MK1 weapons because the person using them arent modding correctly.

Edited by logistical
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So i ask to nerf aoe warframes first, AOE weapons will never be more destructive than a nuke frame.

Also, if you don't like to see AOE players in your match just play solo or go to recruit and make whatever you want.

Bye.

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On 2021-09-01 at 4:36 PM, Tiltskillet said:

The OP might have meant all sources of stagger resistance.  It's hard to tell for sure until we see the published dissertation in full.

But even then it's  simply "back to non-staggering AoE, great job."

 

 

I'm sure he did, but if he actually took a measure of the radius of explosions to area of combat with current explosive weapons, he would realize it would make many weapons unusable. Meanwhile, handspring still exists for those who want to deny the change...

Edited by BahamutKaiser
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What about if you kill tons of enemies in a short period of time it causes remaining enemies to become more aggressive, see you as a threat and focus fire on you. Similar to aggro in mmorpgs.

And then the opposite is maintaining a really high accuracy rating and that could cause enemies to run, take cover and play defensively towards that person.

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51 minutes ago, Redfeather75 said:

What about if you kill tons of enemies in a short period of time it causes remaining enemies to become more aggressive, see you as a threat and focus fire on you. Similar to aggro in mmorpgs.

And then the opposite is maintaining a really high accuracy rating and that could cause enemies to run, take cover and play defensively towards that person.

It’s... cool? But you’ve just plumped an idea down, you haven’t made a  argument for how it would affect gameplay, how it would change how we interact with the enemies ETC. a concept in isolation is worthless. It needs to be paired with a hypothesis, a model or at least some fervour.

Edited by _R_o_g_u_e_
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"Solve?" AOE is fun and is not a problem. The game is not a problem. it's all about progress and fun factors. Just get over it and don't over think. If you don't like it, don't use it. Or ask DE to buff whatever you like. 

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19 hours ago, Duality52 said:

As much as I wish to suggest that, DE's implementation of that onto Khora's Whipclaw was a bit overdone. That can be a nightmare in certain tilesets like the Infested Ship or the Corpus Ice Planet.

That could be an issue, though I'm not sure how they managed to implement it working on normal melee and then scrwed it up on Khora's whipclaw. I wonder if they abide by different rules and sizes. But then again we had Catchmoon at release that got blocked by ghosts aswells. So it might be a good idea to have DE avoid AoE LoS implementations until they've fixed the root of the problem with splash damage, LoS and terrain.

Edited by SneakyErvin
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On 2021-09-02 at 5:17 PM, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

re you advocating for the same changes to be made to punch through weapons too?

not advocating for any of the things I said to be added to the game just thought people might be interested that another game also saw aoe as a problem and what their solution to it was.

later they removed the harder enemies and it became an aoe focused again but I don't know if they did or didn't remove the aoe caps

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I don't use Primed Sure Footed and I still use Bramma and Ogris for steel path infested and grineer. It's just much faster than using normal weapons when you've built them right and if you use them at a longer range then stagger isn't an issue anyway. But even firing it close to you and getting the stagger it is still way more efficient than a single target weapon.

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