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A couple ideas to improve Loki


Movel0
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I had some time to think on what could be done to make Loki more fun and effective to play without chainging his play style. Here are a few ideas. 

 

Passive - Disruptor - Loki gains additional shields for each enemy affected by his abilities up to a max of 2000 shields, shield regeneration is boosted by 25%.

why? this new passive would give him an extra layer of survivability and encourage using his abilities more often. It definitely proves more utility than the passive he currently has. 

 

Decoy - Loki deploys an holographic copy of himself to distract enemies and draw enemy fire. 

Decoy is now duration based. As an hologram, it does not deal any damage, instead it seeks out enemies with his pistol and marks them. Marked enemies have a 25% chance of dropping health/energy orbs/universal ammo pickups on death. The Decoy is silent when firing its weapon. Enemies that hit the Decoy count towards Loki's new passive.

Synergies: casting Switch Teleport on Decoy will make it generate a disruptive wave, stunning all enemies within a 5 meter radius for 5 seconds (Power Range affects the area of the proc, Power Duration affects the duration of the stun). The wave does not trigger cameras or alert enemies. Stunned enemies count towards Loki's new passive.

why? Decoy desperately needs to be more relevant and the goal here is to give players more utility and some extra options to feel more tactical while keeping the uses it has seen so far from the community. 

 

Decoy Augments:

Harmful Decoy - The Decoy's default weapon is now replaced with a replica of the secondary weapon currently equipped and samage scales off its mods.

Trapping Decoy - Enemies that hit the Decoy will be slowed down up to 75% for 5 seconds. (debuff duration scales off Power Duration)

Savior Decoy - Negative status effects are transferred to the Decoy for the duration of the ability, also grants knock-down immunity. 

Decoy Ambush - Up to 3 Decoys can be deployed at the same time, each new Decoy lasts 15% less than the total duration of the ability but costs 25% less energy.

Deceptive Bond - In the trashcan it goes

 

Switch Teleport augment:


Fatal Relocation - If Loki receives fatal damage, he does not enter bleed-out state; instead he turns invisible, regenerates a percentage of his total health, receives a 20% movement speed buff and leaves a Decoy in his place. Decoy, Invisibility and speed buff last for 5 seconds. Cooldown of 35 seconds.

(This augment pretty much works like the Dead Ringer from TF2, but because it might be a bit too op I think it would better be considered a Switch Teleport augment so that it doesn't get too convenient for people who would want to subsume Loki just for it, kind of like Iron Renewal)

 

Invisibility - no need to be touched, this aiblity has a simple job to do and it does it perfectly fine.

 

Radial Disarm - same as above, now affected enemies count towards Loki's new passive. Disarmed enemies marked by a Decoy have receive an additional 25% chance of dropping health/energy orbs/universal ammo pickups upon death.

 

Here are my ideas, I didn't dwelve too much into them because I don't think Loki needs much work to be improved, nor his play style should be changed in any way. There might be room for improvement, so I'd like to hear what the rest of the community feels and hopefully if we spark a proper discussion we could finally persuade DE to give Loki a bit of attention.   

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My personal notes:

1. The "Fatal Relocation" sounds like a more interesting passive than shield regeneration. It may be lifted from TF2 but it's a very Loki-style passive, moreso than simple shield regeneration. I think there's an opportunity to make it "Nidus-like" with stacks (gained by affecting enemies with abilities) that contribute to the passive in some way. Indeed, maybe there's a stack system that increases his ability range - especially to counteract the duration-focus of Invisibility. On that note:

2. One of the major problems in Loki's kit is the fight between duration and range. Invisibility and Decoy want duration; Teleport and Disarm want range; and they don't care for what the other needs. I think Disarm can be tweaked into a "growing range" kind of ability, sort of like Gloom, where - even with a small ability range - a high duration can make the disarming field grow up to, or beyond, the base range. Not 100% sure how to tweak Teleport in that way - maybe we could do something similar with a projectile that teleports Loki on contact? - but 3/4 seems like a good start.

3. Regarding Decoys: I like the idea of Loki being a sort of a pseudo-support (though I kind of wonder if we couldn't just put the orb / ammo generation on all his enemy-affecting abilities without breaking things...). But I think there's too many augments there. Personally, I think it wouldn't be terrible if it could deal damage by default - that's what they do in Conclave. The best way, IMO, is a tap-hold function: tap creates an invulnerable (besides Deceptive Bond damage), non-damaging decoy, while hold creates a damage-dealing-and-taking version using the player's weapon at cast. I think the slow effect could be applied to either enemies that hit the decoy or to the Switch Teleport synergy burst. Maybe both. Deceptive Bond can probably be fixed just by making it 100% and one-way in PvE: damage hitting the player goes to the nearest Decoy, not vice versa. I say "nearest" because I think it would be more fun if using Disarm with a decoy in range duplicates the decoy at 120deg intervals around the player, making a triangle of 3 decoys in that area. Gives a really neat synergy IMO, and weirdly fits with Teleport (by dragging an enemy into a literal shooting gallery).

4. Radial Disarm could probably use some armour / shield stripping, especially with Irradiating Disarm. This is also what happens in Conclave (minus the armour strip).

In short:

Take Conclave Loki, add Fatal Relocation as a passive with a stack system, update the existing augments (as suggested by OP), tweak Teleport and Disarm to use duration in some way (see Gloom e.g.), throw in some synergies. Drown in the happy tears of Loki mains who've wished for an update for years.

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9 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

My personal notes:

1. The "Fatal Relocation" sounds like a more interesting passive than shield regeneration. It may be lifted from TF2 but it's a very Loki-style passive, moreso than simple shield regeneration. I think there's an opportunity to make it "Nidus-like" with stacks (gained by affecting enemies with abilities) that contribute to the passive in some way. Indeed, maybe there's a stack system that increases his ability range - especially to counteract the duration-focus of Invisibility. On that note:

2. One of the major problems in Loki's kit is the fight between duration and range. Invisibility and Decoy want duration; Teleport and Disarm want range; and they don't care for what the other needs. I think Disarm can be tweaked into a "growing range" kind of ability, sort of like Gloom, where - even with a small ability range - a high duration can make the disarming field grow up to, or beyond, the base range. Not 100% sure how to tweak Teleport in that way - maybe we could do something similar with a projectile that teleports Loki on contact? - but 3/4 seems like a good start.

3. Regarding Decoys: I like the idea of Loki being a sort of a pseudo-support (though I kind of wonder if we couldn't just put the orb / ammo generation on all his enemy-affecting abilities without breaking things...). But I think there's too many augments there. Personally, I think it wouldn't be terrible if it could deal damage by default - that's what they do in Conclave. The best way, IMO, is a tap-hold function: tap creates an invulnerable (besides Deceptive Bond damage), non-damaging decoy, while hold creates a damage-dealing-and-taking version using the player's weapon at cast. I think the slow effect could be applied to either enemies that hit the decoy or to the Switch Teleport synergy burst. Maybe both. Deceptive Bond can probably be fixed just by making it 100% and one-way in PvE: damage hitting the player goes to the nearest Decoy, not vice versa. I say "nearest" because I think it would be more fun if using Disarm with a decoy in range duplicates the decoy at 120deg intervals around the player, making a triangle of 3 decoys in that area. Gives a really neat synergy IMO, and weirdly fits with Teleport (by dragging an enemy into a literal shooting gallery).

4. Radial Disarm could probably use some armour / shield stripping, especially with Irradiating Disarm. This is also what happens in Conclave (minus the armour strip).

In short:

Take Conclave Loki, add Fatal Relocation as a passive with a stack system, update the existing augments (as suggested by OP), tweak Teleport and Disarm to use duration in some way (see Gloom e.g.), throw in some synergies. Drown in the happy tears of Loki mains who've wished for an update for years.

I think anything that improves his survivability is a huge improvement over his current passive. I didn't want to go that far as to propose the relocation as a passive because it seemed very op without at least some cooldown to balance it, but passives are in a weird spot because they range from terrible (Loki, Mirage) to insane (Wisp, Wukong) and it's hard to tell what criteria determine how "op" a passive can get for DE.

 

I don't see much of a problem with your statement regarding range and duration, as there are several frames that require investment in more than one attribute. I like your idea of making Radial Disarm duration based like Gloom, but the thing about Radial Disarm is that enemies are permanently disarmed, that makes is strong enough to justify its limitations, while Gloom can linger over time but eventually expires.

 

Regarding Decoy, thank you for your considerations. My general idea about this ability is to be a pure foundation to his play style and his kit: Loki is a manipulator and so he uses Decoy as a mean to distract enemies and keep himself safe, the way I see it his powers offer a lot of room for sperimentation. You can turn invisible and flank enemies, you can confuse them with the teleport, you can disarm them, you can reposition and so on. The point is you are in a position of control, and so I wanted to provide exemples of what kind of utilities Decoy could bring to the table. There are a lot of augments, true, but they are meant to be examples of differnet roads DE could explore to make Decoy more useful for Loki and for other players who would like to subsume it. That is why I never intended it to be a damage dealing ability but rather a strong support, even if I admit having a damage dealing ability in his kit would be great as Celestial Twin proves how busted it can be when a specter uses your weapons instead of scaling of a fixed percentage. The problem of having too many damage dealing decoys means you don't get to do much for yourself, as your decoys can do all the work. 

 

 

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14 hours ago, Movel0 said:

Passive - Disruptor - Loki gains additional shields for each enemy affected by his abilities up to a max of 2000 shields, shield regeneration is boosted by 25%.

While this ability isnt trash, i feel like its a missed oppurtunity to go with something that adds to the trickster vibe. This would just maje him feel like a tank as opposed to a trickster

14 hours ago, Movel0 said:

Decoy is now duration based. As an hologram, it does not deal any damage, instead it seeks out enemies with his pistol and marks them. Marked enemies have a 25% chance of dropping health/energy orbs/universal ammo pickups on death. The Decoy is silent when firing its weapon. Enemies that hit the Decoy count towards Loki's new passive.

Decoy was always duration based, do you mean it will no longer take damage?

15 hours ago, Movel0 said:

casting Switch Teleport on Decoy will make it generate a disruptive wave, stunning all enemies within a 5 meter radius for 5 seconds (Power Range affects the area of the proc, Power Duration affects the duration of the stun). The wave does not trigger cameras or alert enemies. Stunned enemies count towards Loki's new passive

Good good, maybe change to where enemies who were targetting loki get stunned? Make it a little more reliable

15 hours ago, Movel0 said:

Decoy Augments

I think you should consider turning all of these augments into abilities that Loki has by default, where hes able to switch them around like a Vauban & Ivara

15 hours ago, Movel0 said:

Fatal Relocation

Idk, i feel like this is too op and unecessary. Hes already hard to kill from being invisible for 25 seconds, this is overkill

Not to mention the new passive you gave him 💀💀💀

 

I only really like decoy and the change of switch teleport. Those seem nice

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5 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Decoy was always duration based, do you mean it will no longer take damage?

Yes, an hologram having health is downright silly. Now it just stays active until the duration expires, so it can distract or aggro more reliably. 

 

5 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Idk, i feel like this is too op and unecessary. Hes already hard to kill from being invisible for 25 seconds, this is overkill

Not to mention the new passive you gave him 💀💀💀

 

 

Well, the point of giving him more survivability is that you are not forced to stay invisible 99% of the time to stay alive, as cool as it might be for some folks not everyone is fine with it. 

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29 minutes ago, Movel0 said:

Yes, an hologram having health is downright silly. Now it just stays active until the duration expires, so it can distract or aggro more reliably. 

Agreed, i like i like

29 minutes ago, Movel0 said:

Well, the point of giving him more survivability is that you are not forced to stay invisible 99% of the time to stay alive, as cool as it might be for some folks not everyone is fine with it.

While true, this is still far too op. Maybe give it anothe requirment like meet X kills or deal X damage

Else wise i feel he'd better at surviving than any warframe in the game right now. Just too much

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17 hours ago, Movel0 said:

I think anything that improves his survivability is a huge improvement over his current passive. I didn't want to go that far as to propose the relocation as a passive because it seemed very op without at least some cooldown to balance it, but passives are in a weird spot because they range from terrible (Loki, Mirage) to insane (Wisp, Wukong) and it's hard to tell what criteria determine how "op" a passive can get for DE.

I feel that OPness isn't determined on a per-ability basis but a per-Warframe one. Wisp has good abilities, but they're far from the same spectacle as, say, Equinox's Maim. Mirage's passive isn't great, but she has other spectacular abilities that make up for that. They're package deals. And considering the state Loki would be in even after this kind of rework, nevermind the state he's in right now, and given the state of other recent Warframes, I think he can earn a passive that's a bit on the OP side. Especially one that is so thematically suiting.

17 hours ago, Movel0 said:

I don't see much of a problem with your statement regarding range and duration, as there are several frames that require investment in more than one attribute. I like your idea of making Radial Disarm duration based like Gloom, but the thing about Radial Disarm is that enemies are permanently disarmed, that makes is strong enough to justify its limitations, while Gloom can linger over time but eventually expires.

Other Frames requiring trade-offs in stats doesn't make it a good idea. Consider that we basically bin parts of a Warframe's kit to maximize a given ability or abilities. Loki is a prime example, trashing on virtually all his abilities to get Invisibility up to a good point, because that ability is so central to his kit. It's bad enough that there's mechanical incentive (i.e. one ability being that much better than others and all sharing the same resource pool) to forgo 75% of a Warframe's kit to maximize that last 25%. That we double down on that in the stats page doesn't help.

As far as I'm concerned, the ideal is like Defy: you can lean on duration for more invulnerability, strength for armour gain, and range for the counter hit. Changing stats around emphasizes different parts of the ability and may change the style, but the ability doesn't end up in the dustbin just because it loses out on any one stat. That may be a pipe dream, but we can at least try to ensure that, when maxing any one ability on a Warframe, none of the others are trashed.

As for Disarming, it used to be good, but we're at a point where we're clearing tiles with a few button presses. Or launching a handful of Bramma arrows. It's hard to find plain, one-go disarming useful when the enemies we just disarmed end up atomized in the next game tick. Assuming they weren't killed before the animation finished. And that doesn't even factor in that it's the same energy cost, and maybe a little more cast time, as Ember's "blow up the room" ability.

17 hours ago, Movel0 said:

Regarding Decoy, thank you for your considerations. My general idea about this ability is to be a pure foundation to his play style and his kit: Loki is a manipulator and so he uses Decoy as a mean to distract enemies and keep himself safe, the way I see it his powers offer a lot of room for sperimentation. You can turn invisible and flank enemies, you can confuse them with the teleport, you can disarm them, you can reposition and so on. The point is you are in a position of control, and so I wanted to provide exemples of what kind of utilities Decoy could bring to the table. There are a lot of augments, true, but they are meant to be examples of differnet roads DE could explore to make Decoy more useful for Loki and for other players who would like to subsume it. That is why I never intended it to be a damage dealing ability but rather a strong support, even if I admit having a damage dealing ability in his kit would be great as Celestial Twin proves how busted it can be when a specter uses your weapons instead of scaling of a fixed percentage. The problem of having too many damage dealing decoys means you don't get to do much for yourself, as your decoys can do all the work. 

I doubt I'd worry too much about Decoys doing all the work, considering - unlike Celestial Twin - they (mostly) stay where you put them. That, plus their duration and probable demise from enemy fire, means you'd have to keep managing them if you did try to raise a holographic army. There's also the opportunity for additional balance tweaks, as well. After all, Conclave Loki's Decoy does 50% damage, not 100%. (And that'd make for a 150% damage bonus for 125 total energy using that synergy at base - which doesn't seem that bad given Equinox can get a mobile 300% damage bonus for 25 energy and an augment)

Edited by Tyreaus
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  • 2 weeks later...

I think I like loki how he is right now. Sometimes I want to change the pace of the game and loki does just that. Playing loki is like always being on the cusp of death. Except for invisibility. I don't play him often because he's inefficient. But when I play him it's intense and fun. I like his lack of survivability. But yeah, if yall majority don't like that, then I guess complain about it and come up with ideas. I think the people who play loki now play him just for that reason. I'd probably never play loki if he was reworked to the game's standards for simple survivability and stuff because he's kinda in a place that no other frame is in. He's trash in a "I'm gonna play the most complicated clunky and confusing fighting character on the roster" type of trash. I think they should make his kit more complicated and add more complicated features to his abilities. The more random confusing bull****, the better.

Edited by (PSN)SHINOBISERPENT
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