It doesn't make sense that guns can clear entire screens and warframe abilities can't kill a single mid tier enemy.

[Grav_Starstrider]

13 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

The underlying problem is that weapons have multiple layers of multiplicative scaling, whereas abilities only generally have one.

In order to majorly increase the damage of a weapon, you can:

• Increase its base damage.
• Increase its number of shots through multishot mods (if it's a gun, otherwise you increase its attack speed if it's melee).
• Have it output elemental damage.
• Increase its critical strike chance.
• Increase its critical strike damage.
• Increase its chance to apply damage-multiplying status such as Viral, Heat, and so on.

All of which multiply each other's effectiveness. Meanwhile, in order to majorly increase the damage of an ability, you can:

• Equip Power Strength mods.

And that's it. Going to extreme lengths to multiply your ability's damage by a factor of about 4 isn't going to hold a candle to multiplying a weapon's damage by one or two orders of magnitude. In order for the two to equalize, abilities would have to have ridiculously high base damage, whereas right now many abilities have lower base damage at max rank than the base damage of some guns. Alternatively, abilities need to automatically scale in their damage by multiplying off of the enemy's level, dealing max health+shields damage, ramping up on their own, or scaling with weapon mods, which only applies to some, not all damaging abilities.

Personally, I think the most durable solution would be to limit the amount of damage multiplication going on for guns by removing certain mandatory mods, like +base damage and +multishot mods, as well as doing a more general cleanse across mods to favor those that add gameplay rather than just raw power. Another related problem is that modding weapons is incredibly boring and repetitive, as any given weapon tends to work optimally using the same cookie-cutter build as others of the same class: toning down the extremes of our weapon modding could kill two birds in one stone, and perhaps even pave the way for a proper benchmark to be set for appropriate levels of damage output from weapons and abilities alike (which is currently impossible given how variable all of that is). It would be a massive task, but could certainly be worth the effort if it pays off.

Ohey it sounds like we're of the same exact mindset here

Currently we see almost every "meta" mod approximately doubles the damage output of the weapon (Base X 2^#ofDPSmods = ExponentialWeaponDPS) because they not only multiply the weapon's base stats, but also multiply each other. All they'd have to do to rebalance weapons to scale to a less crazy degree would make them only add/tweak the weapon based on the weapon's base stats, rather than each mod-type multiplying not only the weapon but also each other. Making them ONLY modify the base weapon's stats would result in the outcome looking like this: (Base X #ofDPSmods= MultiplicativeWeaponDPS)
rather than the ludicrously exponential doubling-or-more DPS per mod in the current system.

4 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Probably because it opens the flood gates to an already spammable playstyle? 

Are you expecting to 2 shot high level enemies? Because those abilities still kill starchart enemies, and they CC.

That's extremely reductive, and deflects to another problem in game design. imo, every ability should be theoretically worth the energy to cast, in circumstances able to be encountered at any level in the game.

Abilities that explicitly are meant to do damage, and barely do anything outside of that damage, should be capable of dealing damage at high levels too, even if you should be complementing it with gunplay.

Guns, melee, abilities, and enemies, should all be designed and balanced so that new players find early content mildly difficult, whether with Abilities, Guns, and Melee, where they're encouraged to upgrade their arsenal with better mods, or upgrading existing mods to higher ranks, in order to progress to the later content. And at that later content, endgame content, a player's best-moddable setups should allow their abilities, guns, and melee, to all be viable options for facing the enemy. It was stupid for Steel Path to be Melee-spam galore, and it's stupid for it to be "most abilities are borderline useless" too. Right now what's "spammed" is melee, or a select few meta guns (see Bramma and Nukor, even post-nerfs). If making abilities more potent at the endgame was going to result in them being too potent at the beginning compared to gunplay, then the answer really should be to nerf weapons and enemy health down to meet where most of the ability's DPS already meets. As was discussed in my thread I linked above.

It could be balanced. They just have to be willing to do so.

[Colyeses]

5 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Probably because it opens the flood gates to an already spammable playstyle? 

Are you expecting to 2 shot high level enemies? Because those abilities still kill starchart enemies, and they CC.

What's the functional difference between spamming Ogris and spamming Fireball?

[selig_fay]

4 hours ago, Colyeses said:

What's the functional difference between spamming Ogris and spamming Fireball?

Ogris can kill things very fast) 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

5 hours ago, Colyeses said:

What's the functional difference between spamming Ogris and spamming Fireball?

?

The Ogris doesn't give heat damage based on ability strength, making that ogris insanely stronger for a measly 25 energy.

Nor is it a low cost ability that's supposed to be weaker because it's a "1 out of 4" ability.

What's the functional difference between spamming embers 4 and embers 1? 

That 25, 50, 75, and 100 energy cost based on its kit surely doesn't mean anything, right?

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

7 hours ago, selig_fay said:

It depends on what you consider a high level. People have already learned how to blow up 9999 levels. And this is the maximum level in the game. On the other hand, frames and weapons are not equal. For example, if you don't give bonus damage or suck up half of the map, then your CC potential is weak. CC is still used in this game, but if it's just CC, then it's bad and will only be used as nyx on the intercept.

Frames and weapons aren't supposed to be equal....they're all tools supposed to be used in unison with each other. Why would a weapon heal health and shields like Trinitys 4? 

Either way I'm not gonna lose sleep over it. Good luck in your quest to buff 25 energy abilities to give volt frost and ember a secondary nuke. 

[selig_fay]

30 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Frames and weapons aren't supposed to be equal....they're all tools supposed to be used in unison with each other. Why would a weapon heal health and shields like Trinitys 4? 

Either way I'm not gonna lose sleep over it. Good luck in your quest to buff 25 energy abilities to give volt frost and ember a secondary nuke. 

Good night. Tomorrow you will get up and read that we are not trying to make weapons and abilities equal. The point is that you can not pass the game only with weapons or only with abilities, because you will lose. No, you can do this if you have a high player skill, but this is not about you, and not about me and not about 99% of warframe players. Now some abilities or weapons just play the game for you and you do not need tactics, management, reaction to game events. All that is really important now is the spam of one, maybe 2, things. And you have 4 abilities and 4 weapon slots in one mission ( and this is the minimum), but most of the time you need to mindlessly spam 1 thing. In other words, a fireball can be a great addition to ogris, but you don't need a fireball, because ogris is already perfect. That's what this topic is about,

[Colyeses]

7 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

?

The Ogris doesn't give heat damage based on ability strength, making that ogris insanely stronger for a measly 25 energy.

Nor is it a low cost ability that's supposed to be weaker because it's a "1 out of 4" ability.

What's the functional difference between spamming embers 4 and embers 1? 

That 25, 50, 75, and 100 energy cost based on its kit surely doesn't mean anything, right?

Yes, Ogris is way stronger.

Yes, Ember is 'one out of four', but Ogris is 'one out of three'

The functional difference is that one completely wipes cells and the other barely scratches a single target.

No, the energy cost means nothing because it's entirely disproportionate and energy regen is through the roof. Yes, Ember's ult costs 4 times as much, but it also has, what, 300, 400 times the output?

 

You complained about 'making the game more spammy'. I raise the point that the Ogris and Fireball are functionally identical to point out that the game wouldn't get more spammy, it would be just as spammy as it already is, just with 1 instead of LMB. Or 1 in addition to LMB. Either way, if it's okay for Ogris to be spammed, it's okay for Fireball to be spammed.

[Grav_Starstrider]

As a general rule, DE should start really thinking hard about what their actual gameplay philosophy is supposed to be. What is the energy economy vs ammo economy supposed to look like? What is infinitely spammable melee supposed to look like compared to these more limited options? What is an operator truly supposed to bring to the table that Warframes don't have/bring? What content truly asks for that functionality to be used? Can/should any content at any level be able to be best cleared by a specific tool, or by any tool? Can the functionalities and specifics of the tool make it the best option rather than a hardcoded exclusive option? Are there meaningful drawbacks to specialized options, to make their usage more tactical instead of no-brainer upgrades? Can systems be made so that there's consistently at least 2 valid options most players are likely/expected to have equipped?

I feel like most of these questions have a big old shrug right now.

K Drive doesn't seem to have a place in the game compared to the sheer utility/effectiveness of Archwings (and their ability to use primary and secondary weapons and abilities) in Open World zones, comparatively.

What are necramechs but a secondary Warframe for which there aren't really consequences for dying in, with super heavy artillery in the form of their arch guns. What's the down side? If there isn't one, isn't it either blatant power creep, or a semi-pointless sidegrade that they only make relevant with arbitrary anti-Warframe Orphix zones and such.

I really feel like we're getting further and further into feature/power creep territory with everything BUT most Warframe's DPS scaling.

I kinda feel like energy economy needs to be nerfed, but abilities need to be made more aggressively scalable to later content, so that powers feel powerful, not something that you spam without seeing a benefit until you've cast it 10+ times. And tbh melee should be nerfed again, AND enemy EHP, as a way of helping make Warframe abilities and gunplay compete better with melee's infinite-swingability.

 

[Kaggelos]

Personally, i'm more of a "powers should always be the pinnacle of power and nothing can rival them" kinda guy, but alas, weapons are more effective.

I mean, if i had the option, i'd like to play without ANY weapons and just use my powers...

I dont like weapons defining my strength, my strength is my own to build up and refine and perfect, weapons are a piece of equipment (which if u know how to use is also part of skill, but whatevs).

Anyway, imma stop now 'cause this will spiral into some pretty deep philosophical discussions and its almost 6 am and im sleepy xD

[Colyeses]

11 hours ago, Kaggelos said:

Personally, i'm more of a "powers should always be the pinnacle of power and nothing can rival them" kinda guy, but alas, weapons are more effective.

I mean, if i had the option, i'd like to play without ANY weapons and just use my powers...

I dont like weapons defining my strength, my strength is my own to build up and refine and perfect, weapons are a piece of equipment (which if u know how to use is also part of skill, but whatevs).

Anyway, imma stop now 'cause this will spiral into some pretty deep philosophical discussions and its almost 6 am and im sleepy xD

I think it should be down to playstyle preference. We should have frames that work well with guns (Which we do, in Mesa, Inaros, Wukong, Chroma, Mirage, etc.) and we should have frames that are their own weapon. 

[Kripnex]

I think what we need is a Helminth "upgrade" system that permanently increases the damage of an offensive ability, either globally or per-frame, so we can get our abilities buffed without disrupting the early game meta.

If you go the route of adding "quirky" damage scaling mechanics you may or may not fix the problem, but you will definitely make the game more complicated and harder to understand what each ability does, abilities should be more like mods, support abilities could have 1 to 3 ranks, while damaging abilities could have up to 10 ranks, and instead of endo we would use the Helminth's feeding system.

[Lutesque]

DE responds by nerfing guns....

There...happy now ? 😈

[Keiyadan]

Am 2.9.2021 um 03:06 schrieb Hardwood:

Why can't I have a Frost Ice Wave build or a Volt Shock build that actually kills enemies? Like, an ability that costs energy can't kill a level 30 enemy but every gun in the game does 50k DPS standard.

well i dont know what you are doing but if you get problems with abilitys at level 30 that does not seems like you moding works out

[Birdframe_Prime]

This kind of topic really does pique my interest.

Because it's so narrow on the sample field of what it compares.

OP's protest is about 'screen clearing Guns' and... those are surprisingly few in number. The vast majority of guns are single-target, have no punch-through at base, and a massive amount of them are surprisingly low damage. I would hardly class an Mk-1 Strun as a screen-clearer, to be honest with you...

The Kuva Bramma, Kuva Zarr, Tenet Envoy, these are some of the weapons classed as 'screen clearers', while there are others that can compete with high damage or high AoE effects, those are the main protagonists of the current movement. But there are... not to put too fine-a-point on it... literally hundreds of other guns that are not these ones.

Meanwhile the Abilities that cannot compete with these are... kind of limited too, since these abilities are almost never exclusively for damage. If they were designed to kill enemies and did such a poor job of it... then yeah, I can see where the complaint lies.

Yareli is a prime example of that, where the main function of both her 3 and her 4 is damage, there isn't anything else they do in practical function besides a minor CC, and they do it abysmally. 

But the rest of the abilities that people bring up a lot? They're not exclusively designed for Damage. They're designed for combos, for procs, for effects on the enemy or on the warframe that are not just damage. So they aren't limited to just being damage casts.

Since they're not, the fault of those abilities lies more in them being simply un-necessary for the role that DE have given them.

Spoiler

For example, Ash has a low-damage 1. Except it has a band-aid Augment that makes it an incredibly worthwhile cast as you climb higher. The exact same can be said for Banshee.

Ember's 1 is only partially meant for the damage (and I did some maths here guys, with about 180% Strength, with Growing Power and a double-Umbral mod, the combo of Ember's Passive and Immolation increasing the speed and damage of the Charge Fireball, if you care to... Fireball can hit for around 50k per shot, ramping up by that little 5% Strength from her Passive for every enemy on fire around her. With the 50% Armour strip on it and actually maintaining the spam cast with high Efficiency, you can reliably kill Grineer up to around level 80-100 depending on what Eximus units are there.) The majority of what Fireball is for, after her rework, is to proc her Passive and increase the gain of Immolation charge. Fireball can seem under-whelming, and in terms of damage it is. If it were just the damage, then you'd have a problem because her 2, 3 and 4 combine into a complete kit that gives full armour strip and high Heat damage on enemies in the most reliable combo, meaning that her 1 would be completely unnecessary for the role.

On the other hand, a real culprit right now is Frost, where after unlocking his 4 during levelling, the only reason you have to cast his 1 is to burst his Globes after a mis-cast. And that's not a problem of the damage, it's a problem of the mechanic being 'freeze 1 enemy if you can hit it with a projectile cast' versus 'freeze every enemy in range instantly and also deal damage to them with a radial cast'. His 3 also suffers from a similar problem where it's a damage cast that's out-done by his 4 both in area of effect and in actual damage dealt, even the Augment can't really make using Frost's 3 better than using his 4 at all times.

Which means... rework Frost, I guess?

If you flip the argument, you can get just as much outrage at the disparity.

Guns that are not AoE, have no base Punch Through, have no effect that can make them take on more than one single target at a time. Guns that have low base damage, and even with full modding and an Arcane on them, cannot turn out the kind of damage that actually matters...

Versus abilities like Peacemaker, like Whipclaw, like Virulence, like Anti-Matter Drop, like Mallet, like Danse Macabre, like Spores, like Grasp of Lohk...

How can single-target, low damage guns compete with those abilities?

They literally can't.

It's almost like not all of these things were created equal in a deliberate manner. Which allows players to choose a frame or a weapon to do the different tasks. If they want the frame to do the clearing, there's options for that. If they want the weapon to do the clearing, there's options for that.

If they want to hybridise it and have a frame that facilitates and buffs weapons, or provides other forms of scaling like defense stripping, there's options for that too. I mean, Zephyr's great for that, her Tornado and Passive are fantastic gun buffers, turning single-target guns into full AoE on demand. Same with Vauban, who can wide-area CC and strip enemies for either his abilities or his weapons to take a shot. Mirage is amazing for buffing guns and melee. Harrow has literally no abilities that do damage at all, and is amazing for Guns.

The huge array of tactics available in Warframe means that some individual things will seem under-whelming if you compare then directly to the things that are over-whelming.

That's just a fact.

But if you blend and combine functions? You'd be surprised.

[Lutesque]

3 hours ago, Keiyadan said:

well i dont know what you are doing but if you get problems with abilitys at level 30 that does not seems like you moding works out

I mean.... I suppose you could mod Ice Wave to kill level 30 Enemies but it would probably be one of those Builds that doesn't use any Survivability Mods and Energy is so low that you literally can't press 4....

But if you were to ask me....

The real issue is not with these Abilities not being able to kill....

The real issue is why we have to kill so much as part of our Objective in the first place.... Fix that and some of these Abilities can be used for what they were originally intended for... Utility 😁 !!!

 

[Grav_Starstrider]

5 hours ago, Kripnex said:

I think what we need is a Helminth "upgrade" system that permanently increases the damage of an offensive ability, either globally or per-frame, so we can get our abilities buffed without disrupting the early game meta.

If you go the route of adding "quirky" damage scaling mechanics you may or may not fix the problem, but you will definitely make the game more complicated and harder to understand what each ability does, abilities should be more like mods, support abilities could have 1 to 3 ranks, while damaging abilities could have up to 10 ranks, and instead of endo we would use the Helminth's feeding system.

That's a neat thought. A bit feature/power-creepy instead of fixing baseline fundamental problems, but it's a thought 🤔

4 hours ago, Lutesque said:

DE responds by nerfing guns....

There...happy now ? 😈

Yes, if accompanied by further melee nerfs, nerfs to nukeframes, and nerfs to enemy EHP 🤷‍♂️

3 hours ago, Keiyadan said:

well i dont know what you are doing but if you get problems with abilitys at level 30 that does not seems like you moding works out

The exact numbers/levels don't really matter very much here. Abilities that are intended as DPS abilities first and foremost should still be functional for DPS when you get to the latter end of the game. I don't care if a particular player's modding setup runs into that problem in the early starchart, late starchart, or only into Arbitrations and sorties and Railjack and Steel Path. MANY abilities run into this problem waaaaay before guns/melee do, and waaaaay before Steel Path levels, because gun/melee modding is ridiculously exponential compared to the merely multiplicative ability strength modding that barely allows DPS abilities to scale unless they're for crazy-effective elements like Viral or Heat, or had explicit per-level or percentage-health scaling or armor stripping built into them.

51 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Yareli is a prime example of that, where the main function of both her 3 and her 4 is damage, there isn't anything else they do in practical function besides a minor CC, and they do it abysmally. 

Many abilities are equally DPS and CC-oriented in the early star-chart, but see their DPS component drop off sharply in utility, leaving some Warframes with entire kits that do almost exclusively just lackluster CC and no damage at all. I don't think Yareli is actually a good example of that, as she's seemingly designed to be a CC-frame, and is just doing a poor job at it. Her Riptide does half-decent grouping and damage, even if it's failing to do either to a competitive degree compared to other abilities, and the same goes for her Aquablades, which are intended to "cc nearby enemies and damage them", also failing to do either terribly effectively.

CC (and grouping) becomes more important at high-level gameplay to avoid getting gibbed, but that doesn't make it more effective, if that makes any sense. A slowed/frozen/disoriented enemy in the early game is doing the same fraction or cessation of damage less as a higher-leveled enemy. But the number of ability-casts to kill an enemy going up exponentially feels silly, when Energy is supposedly/theoretically a much rarer/harder resource to replenish quickly/freely compared to ammo (see Cetus Ammo Dispensers, Carrier, mutation mods, etc).

59 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Versus abilities like Peacemaker, like Whipclaw, like Virulence, like Anti-Matter Drop, like Mallet, like Danse Macabre, like Spores, like Grasp of Lohk...

How can single-target, low damage guns compete with those abilities?

They literally can't.

imo nukeframes and AoE weapon's purposes should be in clearing only lightweight enemies, not literally all enemies, which they do currently.

57 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

But if you blend and combine functions? You'd be surprised.

Best CC is a dead enemy, and maximum quantity of dead enemies are one of the best ways of getting loot in this loot-grinding game. And is the way of clearing many game modes the fastest.

13 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

The real issue is not with these Abilities not being able to kill....

The real issue is why we have to kill so much as part of our Objective in the first place.... Fix that and some of these Abilities can be used for what they were originally intended for... Utility 😁 !!!

I agree. Slow-va and Vauban were super crazy-useful when grinding Interception was one of the optimal paths to getting the kinda loot you desired, or avoiding crazy-powerful enemies bum-rushing you in the old Raids. The gameplay drifting further and further towards "genocide-as-quickly-as-possible", instead of making it so that there are minibosses to be avoided if possible due to being more trouble than they're worth to fight, devalued CC options. Noxes were a half-step in the direction of "better to delay and just kill other things" and felt like a good addition! Various Demolysts and making Bursas more common again, and Juggernaut-like enemies being used would be good too! DE released Scarlet Spear, saw that we realized that it was basically an interception-defense that we could cheese with Khora-healing and Limbo-Stasis'ing, and realized they made the event too simple, and so they brought the nerf-hammer down on those two Warframes, and then ALL of the healing abilities in the game, in order to ensure we could never (or at least less often) just CC or heal our way to victory. Having damage attenuation reward under-modded non-meta weaponry use (in Sisters combat) is too far the other way, especially when we're explicitly meant to kill them is the wrong direction, but making damage be a pathway to CC'ing enemies without status proc reliance, and making more things require less explicit/mandatory killing, making more things reward mobile gameplay more.... DE could make smarter gameplay and enemy design choices to make more options attractive and useful in more circumstances, instead of 1 option more exclusively and universally being the best option for a given game mode, and for that 1 option to be killing more often than not.

Got rambly and potentially not-laser-focused there, but the different problems-observed and points/solutions pointed out are still mostly valid, I feel. DE just has to be willing to rework older content/designs/systems/enemies to make the gameplay less stale and cookie-cutter-solution-catering. Ideally most content would have 1 or 2 discrete solutions, with different sub-par solutions still viable, and with some curveballs that resist the default solutions, to maintain a sense of difficulty (or at least give you incentive to have a secondary that does a different thing than your primary, or a melee that does different things than your guns, or Warframe abilities, etc) and keep gameplay fresh, varied, and engaging.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

47 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Ember's 1 is only partially meant for the damage (and I did some maths here guys, with about 180% Strength, with Growing Power and a double-Umbral mod, the combo of Ember's Passive and Immolation increasing the speed and damage of the Charge Fireball, if you care to... Fireball can hit for around 50k per shot, ramping up by that little 5% Strength from her Passive for every enemy on fire around her.

Nice casual +95% strength from passive you're counting there.

Here's how the math goes:
Base damage of Fireball: 500 direct hit + 150 AoE
Power Strength Multiplier: 1.8x
Consecutive Cast Multiplier: 8x
Charge Bonus at max Immolation: 5x (additive to Consecutive Cast Multiplier)

So 650 x 1.8 x (8 + 5) = 16,380 damage.

If we count Fireball's doubled damage when hitting an enemy with an active heat proc, it goes to 32,760 total damage. Still not 50k.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Just now, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Charge Bonus at max Immolation: 5x (additive to Consecutive Cast Multiplier)

I think you've missed a step there; the Charged 5x damage is part of the base Fireball, not the synergy with Immolation.

Immolation adds damage to the Charged Cast based on meter stored, which is up to 100% meter.

So with that, the maths would be:

500 to 900 with 1.8x modded Power Strength. 900 to 4500 with 5x Charge. 4500 to 11,700 with additive 8x Consecutive Multiplier (so 8+5 is 13x the 900). 11,700 to 23,400 with Immolation's 100% damage at max ramp. 23,400 to 46,800 with bonus for hitting an already on-fire enemy.

Still not 50k, but I did specifically say 'Just under' 50k.

Now, I could be wrong on that, I haven't tested in a while, but back when the rework was done, that was the number range that I was getting in testing.

[Colyeses]

20 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I think you've missed a step there; the Charged 5x damage is part of the base Fireball, not the synergy with Immolation.

Immolation adds damage to the Charged Cast based on meter stored, which is up to 100% meter.

So with that, the maths would be:

500 to 900 with 1.8x modded Power Strength. 900 to 4500 with 5x Charge. 4500 to 11,700 with additive 8x Consecutive Multiplier (so 8+5 is 13x the 900). 11,700 to 23,400 with Immolation's 100% damage at max ramp. 23,400 to 46,800 with bonus for hitting an already on-fire enemy.

Still not 50k, but I did specifically say 'Just under' 50k.

Now, I could be wrong on that, I haven't tested in a while, but back when the rework was done, that was the number range that I was getting in testing.

That's not really a normally feasible situation though, since it requires set-up of both Immolation and consecutive multiplier, both of which massively increase energy costs and have very high upkeep. 

Compared to plenty of weapons that pull off the same kind of values for simply pressing or holding M1 for a little bit, and quite a few of those will have a similar or greater AoE. 

[iHeuksal]

This is why I use Gloom on almost any frame, with at least 75% slow effect and at least 145% ability range. Warframe abilities in general are a waste of time. If you want to look cool, play another game (fancy sfx), if you want to play and enjoy WF, use anything but Warframe abilities.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I think you've missed a step there; the Charged 5x damage is part of the base Fireball, not the synergy with Immolation.

Immolation adds damage to the Charged Cast based on meter stored, which is up to 100% meter.

So with that, the maths would be:

500 to 900 with 1.8x modded Power Strength. 900 to 4500 with 5x Charge. 4500 to 11,700 with additive 8x Consecutive Multiplier (so 8+5 is 13x the 900). 11,700 to 23,400 with Immolation's 100% damage at max ramp. 23,400 to 46,800 with bonus for hitting an already on-fire enemy.

Still not 50k, but I did specifically say 'Just under' 50k.

Now, I could be wrong on that, I haven't tested in a while, but back when the rework was done, that was the number range that I was getting in testing.

Fireball has a base damage of 400 (lower than I remember and had in my initial post).
You can see that the uncharged version does 720 damage, showing that I'm at 180% strength.
2nd (2x multiplier) cast does 1440 damage, as expected
3rd (4x multiplier) cast does 2880 damage, as expected again
4th (8x multiplier) cast does 5760 damage.
5th cast (fully charged with max Immolation meter) does 9360 damage.

9360/720 = 13x damage. The only thing missing is the on fire bonus, which would bring it to 18,720 damage. So I'll retract this:

1 hour ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Nice casual +95% strength from passive you're counting there.

You actually need +150% strength from her passive to reach "nearly 50k" with 180% modded strength if you include the AoE as well.

[Keiyadan]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb Lutesque:

I mean.... I suppose you could mod Ice Wave to kill level 30 Enemies but it would probably be one of those Builds that doesn't use any Survivability Mods and Energy is so low that you literally can't press 4....

never got what the deal is with all the Survivability Modings on frames that have only basic stats for it but against low level enemys like on the starmap it not realy that needed
i mean we dont have limited revives anymore so the only thing about dieing ingame is are my teammates going to pick me up? or do i have to use something to do it myself.
 

vor 10 Stunden schrieb Grav_Starstrider:

The exact numbers/levels don't really matter very much here. Abilities that are intended as DPS abilities first and foremost should still be functional for DPS when you get to the latter end of the game. I don't care if a particular player's modding setup runs into that problem in the early starchart, late starchart, or only into Arbitrations and sorties and Railjack and Steel Path. MANY abilities run into this problem waaaaay before guns/melee do, and waaaaay before Steel Path levels, because gun/melee modding is ridiculously exponential compared to the merely multiplicative ability strength modding that barely allows DPS abilities to scale unless they're for crazy-effective elements like Viral or Heat, or had explicit per-level or percentage-health scaling or armor stripping built into them.

so we should make every dmg abillity scale or do %dmg  but % would be mostly not keep up either
but then again i remeber topics about farmes nukeing the map and all that in missions like ESO and my exp with steelpath is more a combination of abillitys and weapons leads to mass destuction still in steelpath some of the best dmg dealing abillity for single target would me Trinitys EV not on every target it can be used but it has the potential to deal a lot of dmg regardless of level since it is %based

[Birdframe_Prime]

10 hours ago, Colyeses said:

That's not really a normally feasible situation though, since it requires set-up of both Immolation and consecutive multiplier, both of which massively increase energy costs and have very high upkeep. 

Well, yes? You're not wrong. But I am still pointing out that it's there. Why am I pointing out that it's there? Because that's literally what DE will point out too.

It's an ability that's primarily designed to interact with the rest of her kit in her current iteration. But they will point out that in the current iteration it can deal a surprising amount of damage as well.

[Lutesque]

1 hour ago, Keiyadan said:

never got what the deal is with all the Survivability Modings on frames that have only basic stats for it but against low level enemys like on the starmap it not realy that needed
i mean we dont have limited revives anymore so the only thing about dieing ingame is are my teammates going to pick me up? or do i have to use something to do it myself.

I guess it depends on The Warframe or the type of mission being done....

 

[Birdframe_Prime]

9 hours ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Fireball has a base damage of 400 (lower than I remember and had in my initial post).

That is lower than I remember too, I wonder when that was changed...

Even so the things you're missing there are 1: Proto Shields have Object Health, meaning no Status, and 2: the damage to a burning enemy, which was calculated in.

So, yes, the damage is lower than I tested. It's also higher than you're testing.

I'll admit, you proved me wrong, but I'll still point out that I'm not as wrong as you're pointing out.