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Why are Lich and Sister weapons so good and the hounds so bad?


Nexeroff
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I am almost jealous to be honest.  New players can run around with hounds and enjoy them for a few MR levels before they realize there are much better options and hounds are the worst possible option.  I like how they look, move, sound, they are pretty awesome.

Except they are not awesome at all.

Kubrows are even better than hounds, and that's not saying much.

With Sisters we get awesome, end game weapons that have all kinds of different ways to make them better, to change them to suit our individual styles of game play.  I feel this was attempted with hounds, and for the most part, being modular allows for diversity except there is nothing really good or useful about hounds that would cause me to choose any above a Carrier or Wyrm or Smeeta, etc.  There is no unique added benefit that would be useful in end game or steel path content, and I thought this was the entire premise for the liches and sisters, was for end game, steel path equipment.

I would love to see hounds re-worked so that people might choose to use them more often.  Maybe a precept that opens containers or converts ammo like carrier, or knocks down enemies too close like wyrm, or provides energy or life orbs, or anything that might be useful in end game content.\

It feels off to hunt a sister for an end game weapon and get a starter companion with your loot.  Please, make hounds better and useful not just MR fodder.  We have more than enough MR fodder, equipment that we level up, delete and forget about.  Think about this, hounds would be so, so much better if you just made them exactly the same as Sentinels, so why make them anything less, and why not take the opportunity to make them better?

Edited by Nexeroff
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Simply put, they (like most non-meta companions) are redundant.

Companions are only useful for two things- damage, and utility, the former falling off in usefulness within endgame content since companion weapons/damage are poor, and hounds not providing much in the way of the latter because they're pretty clearly designed for combat.

Some of the precepts are interesting, but unless the numbers are cranked up to usefulness or they're given some kind of utility that competes, they're mastery fodder like everything not the usual utility suspects.

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Meh, hounds are fun. With the mod that divides it in 3, they can have decent survivability (better than a smeeta at least), I love having all my little guys run around and do minor cc, and having to revive it way less often.

Of course there are massively better choices out there (wouldn't have chosen carrier as an example, I precisely don't see why you'd ever choose carrier over hound), but hey, like weapons, it's not about always going around with the strongest thing, but enjoying variety instead.

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Like many things in the game, it's an issue of balance: a few companions are really useful, most are just there to serve as MR fodder. Same thing with weapons.

At the same time, the game is not difficult enough to make this an issue. What I mean is that for a large portion of the content provided, you can really choose any companion you like without losing anything important in efficiency. Hence it becomes a matter of personal taste or aesthetics for many players. Sure, some more "babysitting" might be necessary, but not too much.

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Yeah because all but two of the pet companions are almost entirely worthless.

And I don't even subscribe to the whole "Panzer/Smeeta are the only worthwhile pets" as Sentinels offer plenty of exclusive utility. But so many of the other companions are either completely worthless to use or their effects are far too niche. It's inevitable for them to be redundant and MR fodder with the excessive number of them but even then too few are useful.

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Their focus is crowd control, that of which rivals even many of the current warframes.

But unless you're a CC God like Limbo, Vauban, etc... no one cares. And even then, it's only reasonable to bring stuff like that to a handful of missions.

So they're not bad, just not meta... Unlike the bulk of the predasite/vulpaphylas that came just before them.

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the problem isn't just hounds, it's companions overall, for a number of reasons:

- few of them actually have the capability to survive beyond regular starchart levels, unless you explicitly mod for it, which means sacrificing damage and utility options. why have the companion be alive if it's not useful? if I wanted it just for companionship itself I'd keep it in the Orbiter: on the battlefield it needs to make itself useful.

- their AI is bad, but that's a problem in 99% of games, including many far less complicated than warframe. if Companions were smarter at targeting enemies and dodging attacks, maybe they'd see more use.

and most of all:

- DE can't decide whether or not companions are supposed to have a noticeable effect on our overall DPS: on one hand they give us mods and sets that should make pets viable, but yet they refuse to put in actual buffs to base stats of companion sin order to help them scale effectively. they give companions utility abilities, but they're not much cop on a companion that can't take more than a few stray rounds without going down. the need to settle on one of two outcomes: either make companions purely utility based and immortal, so as to complement our frames and weapons, or allow them to remain vulnerable but greatly increase their capability to buff allies, debuff enemies, deal damage etc, to the point where they have a noticeable impact.

I don't think there'd be anything wrong with, for example. a Kubrow killing everyone in the room, considering I still have to be present in the vicinity and also have to mod and upgrade a Kubrow to reach the point where it can engage enemeis without my help. even better if we can do this using a command button or something, then there's no worry of it being turned into an "afk playstyle".

as for Hounds, they are basically just rehashed MOAs with a different grind. some of their abilities look cool, but they are still outclassed by Panzer Vulpaphylas: immortal, armor stripping, spore spreading infested fox-cats of hell that are kept only in check by the fact they are powered by the same smoothbrain companion AI as their weaker peers. don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE other companions to be that good. I'm a dog person IRL, I want a bad-a$$ Kubrodon to rip apart my enemies, but I can't have that, not in the way that I envision it. I would love Bird of Prey companions as well, my own customizable Condroc perhaps, but I legit don't want it to happen until companions are in a better place.. whenevr that will be.

anyway, tangent over. TL;DR: most companions are too squishy, too dumb and not powerful enough to make any real difference to our abilities, despite demanding the same levels of investment as a weapon.

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14 hours ago, ReddyDisco said:

There are companions other than smeeta and panzer? /s

but yea, hounds are big disappoint, companions need an update and maybe should stop dying every second, that'd be nice

If DE didn't make every single necessary companion mod have absurd capacity requirements they would probably be a lot more survivable.  As it stands now we need to forma a single companion 8 times I'm order for the mods to be maxed out.  DE has known this for a long time but clearly they do not care.

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I'm about to swap back to Smeeta/Vulpaphyla for another thousand hours. Hounds were cool but, they're annoying. I'd put up with their nil-damage and non-utility, because I think they look cool, but they're annoying AF when I'm reviving them 5 times a mission, or they just won't die fast enough to get their stupid lil UI marker off of my screen. 

Edited by (XBOX)CaligulaTwily
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Honestly, Kubrows and Predasites are the only companions capable of taking down Steel Path enemies in a reasonable amount of time, their slash procs are melee heavy attack worthy. That is when they decide to NOT use the damn "step back and pounce" attack, which misses 90% of the time.

And they do that A LOT.

Panzers are overvalued af, countless times I wished I had equipped a sentinel with Helstrum + Primed Firestorm. Awesome companions given the circumstances, but still, overvalued.

Smeetas: you only love them whem they give you the right buff (drops). 

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i wish with the number of options we have for companions we would've been spoiled for choice and couldn't decide on what to pick but the smeeta kavat is just obviously the best choice and if you don't decide to use it you are losing on potential loot in a game where loot is the main point of playing and the biggest factor of progress.

what can be done about this situation? make other companions as useful or make charm universal like we had with vacuum all those moons ago, almost no other sentinal or companion was getting used when carrier only had vacuum and for the longest time only sentinals were getting used because kavats and kubrows didn't have fetch.

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It actually would be pretty cool if Hounds could equip a Sentinel...

I mean, it sounds silly, but that would really make them actually competitive choices against a solid Kavat, Vulphaphyla, or Kubrow.  Heck, I like my Moas better than I do the Hounds.  Hounds are pretty underwhelming and underpowered, and Sentinels have no real damage output.  Sentinels have some solid support utility mods.

I dunno.  I just know Hounds feel pretty unimpressive, but it'd be kinda cool if they didn't exclude Sentinels.

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5 hours ago, (PSN)DidacoJack said:

Smeetas: you only love them whem they give you the right buff (drops). 

I love my Smeeta regardless, and having the crit buff is actually pretty nice since it's a guaranteed Orange or better crit.

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22 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

Meh, hounds are fun. With the mod that divides it in 3, they can have decent survivability (better than a smeeta at least), I love having all my little guys run around and do minor cc, and having to revive it way less often.

Of course there are massively better choices out there (wouldn't have chosen carrier as an example, I precisely don't see why you'd ever choose carrier over hound), but hey, like weapons, it's not about always going around with the strongest thing, but enjoying variety instead.

With Ivara, I can most of the steel path missions, with carrier.  Carrier auto breaks containers with the right mod, and changes pickups to the ammo I need, so I can use a silenced Zarr for example and never ever worry about any ammo, and auto break containers that I don't shoot with the Zarr.  Very, very efficient.  And if I am ever not hidden as happens sometimes with certain enemies that spawn in missions, then my carrier is equipped with a weapon modded for cold that not only dramatically slows enemies, but also kills high level content.  

You can also mod your weapon on your sentinel to buff the weapon you are using by using specific mods that for example give a boost to critical chance.

So my carrier auto breaks containers, it changes ammo to the type I need this is huge with weapons that have limited ammo, with the right weapon I can slow enemies to a crawl this is huge in capture missions, in killing treasurers or slowing down any target.  Sometimes just for giggles when a the stalker spawns, I go into operator mode and run around while my Carrier kills the Stalker.  It's kinda hilarious.

I have found no use for a Hound, they have no utility and their combat effectiveness is way way under par compared with what I can do with Carrier.  The right weapon with the right riven, modded correctly, my carrier out performs just about everything else.

There are missions I use other pets or companies, I like to use Wyrm on defense missions with Xaku for the knockdown, and using the same weapon as I put on Carrier, Wyrm wrecks everything when you are stationary and don't need to worry about ammo.

But hounds just simply cannot handle end game content.  My Smeeta has way more suitability than any hound, with the right mod setup it never dies, I use the crit buff kavat on Eidolon hunts and it never dies.  If your kavat is dying in missions then it's not modded correctly.  Hounds however, they will die, specially in higher end content and there isn't much you can do about it at all.

I feel that hounds should be made so that they are either far more combat effective, or have far more utility or make them similar to moas where you can alter then for either or both, or like sentinels so that you can mod and equip them for both.

So far as Carrier is concerned, mine never dies because I mod it correctly, it kills high end content, it helps me kill high level content, it has utility in that it changes ammo pickups to what I need and breaks open containers for look.  Way, way way better than any hound.  I don't understand how you wouldn't know that to be honest.

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20 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

Their focus is crowd control, that of which rivals even many of the current warframes.

But unless you're a CC God like Limbo, Vauban, etc... no one cares. And even then, it's only reasonable to bring stuff like that to a handful of missions.

So they're not bad, just not meta... Unlike the bulk of the predasite/vulpaphylas that came just before them.

If you are using a hound for CC, then you are doing things wrong.  Right now, any frame can have CC.  Use your helminth system and subsume Gara, then use Spectrorage, amazing CC really.

Get a Zarr or a Envoy or another radial attack Sister or Lich weapon, and that's really all the CC you need, ever.

You can also subsume other abilities like Banshe silence, running through a steel path mission with silence working is like running through a room and nobody noticing you are even there.  Works amazing on missions where you are solo and just going from point A to point B then exit, like capture for example, or rescue.  I did most of the steel path capture and rescue missions this way, super easy and simple no killing even required.

If you are relying on a hound for CC, I'm not even sure how to talk with you about it to be honest.  It's my opinion that the hounds are the very worst choice for CC given there are so many other choices far better, easier to use, that are way more effective.

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6 hours ago, (PSN)DidacoJack said:

Smeetas: you only love them whem they give you the right buff (drops). 

I'd probably use most other companions over smeeta if I didn't need so much resources for dojo decorations. Though I can see how good it is before getting pretty much everything, when that resource buff stacks its so good and can ease a bit of the grind. 

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Yes they are not good. If they were immortal like the Vulphaphyla and had (Hunter Recovery) they would be somewhat useable. Even with it though they would still be outclassed by the Vulpaphyla with spores and (Hunter Recovery), but maybe the CC effects might have some use on frames who take no damage by gating or abilities. 

 

All the mods for them don’t do the user much good and they really don’t have anything special.       

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10 hours ago, Nexeroff said:

If you are relying on a hound for CC, I'm not even sure how to talk with you about it to be honest.

Well you don't, because you're entire reply just restated the second line of my post.... I know why no one uses them, I don't use them, but at the very least they're designed well for that job no one needs done. Which is something you can't even say for a lot of companions.

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Puppy triplets with ephemera are OP for fashionframe.

Seriously, I am using a hound as my main companion just because the little puppy mode is so cute. They don't have anything extra or OP, but they have the normal stuff that makes companions useful, like vacuum, guardian, and animal instinct. I haven't noticed my hound dying with any frequency that becomes irritating.

The other buffs from "meta" companions are nice to have I guess, but Warframe is so easy that they are completely unnecessary. There is room for lots of different kinds of companions. My prior main was Diriga because he's a cute little balloon guy and he frequently saves me from enemies sneaking up behind me with his hard CC single target electrocution. I guess I could get a damage or loot multiplier from a vulpaphyla or smeeta, but I don't really need extra damage or loot honestly - I have those in abundance. So, I am enjoying the hounds, especially since they are essentially free stuff.

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This same logic could be applied to frames and weapons too, variety of content doesn't have to include superior choices. To optimizers, there is only power creep or MR fodder. If your top priority is superior performance, stop asking for competitive alternatives, there is no such thing as absolute symmetry, you can only get more power creep. 

As for me, I considered adding Hound Mag to my Mag loadout so I have more bubbles. 

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