Why are Lich and Sister weapons so good and the hounds so bad?

[Nexeroff]

11 hours ago, BahamutKaiser said:

This same logic could be applied to frames and weapons too, variety of content doesn't have to include superior choices. To optimizers, there is only power creep or MR fodder. If your top priority is superior performance, stop asking for competitive alternatives, there is no such thing as absolute symmetry, you can only get more power creep. 

As for me, I considered adding Hound Mag to my Mag loadout so I have more bubbles. 

As the game progresses certain frames that are not evolved lose favor and function.  This is entirely different than what we are seeing with new content in regards to hounds.  From the very start they were not really relevant or useful, just very cool in design but not in combat or utility at all.

My point is this, hounds being new should be applicable to the new game content, enemies, steel path, etc.  They are not, they are not functional nor useful except for new players in non-steel path missions at low levels and even then not really useful.  And here is the kicker, in order for a new players to obtain hounds, they have to do higher end content they are not geared up for yet, and once they are geared up for that content they quickly realize that the only thing a hound is good for is for fashion and gimmickry.

I am saying that DE had an opportunity to create hounds that had combat and utility value, and fell far short of doing so.  I am not trying to take away from the cool factor, they are cool, but they serve no real purpose outside MR fodder.

[KitMeHarder]

12 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Map wide constantly spreading Viral cannot be overvalued imo

Which really doesn't happen outside of SP endurance. Even then, they're prized for dying and self reviving (which will happen a good amount in the SP depending your build). But when they die or respawn, their spores get nullified.

And for the rest of the game, you're lucky if one enemy gets spores in something like a coop kuva flood, sortie, etc... Let alone any spore spreading. (Remember, enemies have to already be affected by viral for the quills to make spores.)

So at a certain point you have to question, how important is self revival if that's all they can really do in normal missions? All sentinels in the game can already do that 4 times for the shorter missions, and my Smeeta rarely dies any way. So if you're doing 1+ hour SP runs, the fox is great; But otherwise, it's niche and overvalued by lazy people.

[Nexeroff]

36 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Which really doesn't happen outside of SP endurance. Even then, they're prized for dying and self reviving (which will happen a good amount in the SP depending your build). But when they die or respawn, their spores get nullified.

And for the rest of the game, you're lucky if one enemy gets spores in something like a coop kuva flood, sortie, etc... Let alone any spore spreading. (Remember, enemies have to already be affected by viral for the quills to make spores.)

So at a certain point you have to question, how important is self revival if that's all they can really do in normal missions? All sentinels in the game can already do that 4 times for the shorter missions, and my Smeeta rarely dies any way. So if you're doing 1+ hour SP runs, the fox is great; But otherwise, it's niche and overvalued by lazy people.

I find uses for both because I'm dynamic like that, but I find no uses for the hounds, which is what the post is really about.

I notice a marked difference in my ability to survive in the toughest end game, steel path missions using Xaku when I use my Vulp as opposed to not.  So there is huge value in it, nothing overvalued by lazy people, more like smart people realize they can escape the toxic randoms in pubs and do content solo, which by the way is far more challenging and certainly not lazy, and do so even better using a vulp.

I want to make this point clear, this post is not about chastising people for choosing to use any pets or companions, it's not which is better and who is lazy or not, all that is just measuring the size of your you know what and that isn't cool at all.  It's about DE making hounds useful and not just entertaining for MR fodder.  There are useful Kavats and Sentinels and infested pets, but no real use for Kubrows anymore, we kind of grew out of that.  As for hounds, I see no excuses why they shouldn't have been far more useful than they are, everything else has been useful at some point and perhaps fell out of favor, except hounds were day one, not useful except for new players which do not normally have access to obtain them considering they drop from harder content that requires the use of trained frames and weapons that are above new players access.

It makes no sense why they were not made more useful.

[Im_a_Turtle]

I'm waiting on a beast master warframe that specifically compliments his/her abilities with companions and allows for having 3 animal companions in-mission as a frame passive.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

On 2021-09-02 at 1:32 AM, Nexeroff said:

I am almost jealous to be honest.  New players can run around with hounds and enjoy them for a few MR levels before they realize there are much better options and hounds are the worst possible option.  I like how they look, move, sound, they are pretty awesome.

Except they are not awesome at all.

Kubrows are even better than hounds, and that's not saying much.

With Sisters we get awesome, end game weapons that have all kinds of different ways to make them better, to change them to suit our individual styles of game play.  I feel this was attempted with hounds, and for the most part, being modular allows for diversity except there is nothing really good or useful about hounds that would cause me to choose any above a Carrier or Wyrm or Smeeta, etc.  There is no unique added benefit that would be useful in end game or steel path content, and I thought this was the entire premise for the liches and sisters, was for end game, steel path equipment.

I would love to see hounds re-worked so that people might choose to use them more often.  Maybe a precept that opens containers or converts ammo like carrier, or knocks down enemies too close like wyrm, or provides energy or life orbs, or anything that might be useful in end game content.\

It feels off to hunt a sister for an end game weapon and get a starter companion with your loot.  Please, make hounds better and useful not just MR fodder.  We have more than enough MR fodder, equipment that we level up, delete and forget about.  Think about this, hounds would be so, so much better if you just made them exactly the same as Sentinels, so why make them anything less, and why not take the opportunity to make them better?

Hounds are in the initial stages of a Sentinel/Companion hybrid testing phase.  They will improve.  Having said that…
 

Kubrows should always be better.  In fact they need to buff them to compete with Kavats by either offering the same abilities or making them far better protectors, tanks, or damage dealers to make them fit a different space with equal value.

Because Kavats LITERALLY affect game progression AND have all kinds of powers on the level with Warframe kits.

And Kubrows are visually still the best looking companions in the game.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

27 minutes ago, Im_a_Turtle said:

I'm waiting on a beast master warframe that specifically compliments his/her abilities with companions and allows for having 3 animal companions in-mission as a frame passive.

I have also had thoughts on a hunter/beast master frame of this type with a standard companion and two unique hunter pets for a total of 3.

[Nexeroff]

39 minutes ago, (PSN)Silverback73 said:

Hounds are in the initial stages of a Sentinel/Companion hybrid testing phase.  They will improve.  Having said that…
 

Kubrows should always be better.  In fact they need to buff them to compete with Kavats by either offering the same abilities or making them far better protectors, tanks, or damage dealers to make them fit a different space with equal value.

Because Kavats LITERALLY affect game progression AND have all kinds of powers on the level with Warframe kits.

And Kubrows are visually still the best looking companions in the game.

I agree about Kubrows, they need to be worked and improved to keep up with the evolution of the game.

Plus I have spent a lot of time breeding Kubrows for specific colors, fur patterns and bulky/huge sizes and still do, it's like gambling.  I would like to see them return to interest, I have many Lotus pattern kubrows I would like to sell..  >=)

Regardless of my personal bias and selfish reasons, I feel the frames and pets/companions that have fallen out of favor should be updated and brought back into interest, made useful in new unique ways.

I thought one such way might be to create a helminth type system for pets and companions.  Imagine if you could evolve your pet or companion in the way which fits your play style AND fashion sense best.  I think that would be very interesting indeed.

[Galuf]

Those are not that great however they come as free while farming meta weapons and they do cool stuff if you make them survive.

They released quite good companions over time and imho some sentinel precepts are really cool and are usueable and shaked the meta last year with HoD companions wich are busted but not busted enough so feel like you actively want them over kavaats most of the time. The sister's pet come already built in when you kill a sister and their precepts are kind of cool as well imho, it's not meta breaker but it's fashion frame and it does cool stuff.

[KitMeHarder]

5 hours ago, Nexeroff said:

I find uses for both because I'm dynamic like that, but I find no uses for the hounds, which is what the post is really about.

I understand that, I was just refuting that guy's point. I know Panzers have their uses.

5 hours ago, Nexeroff said:

I notice a marked difference in my ability to survive in the toughest end game, steel path missions using Xaku when I use my Vulp as opposed to not.

And in SP I said they're worth using, as the spores can actually spread and normal companions die too frequently. The lazy part I referred to is the people that use them anywhere the Panzer's abilities don't really do anything, simply cause they can't be bothered to spend 5 seconds (once every half-a-dozen missions) to revive something that that teleports to you when it dies. Thus the people valuing Panzers past what they're good for.

5 hours ago, Nexeroff said:

but no real use for Kubrows anymore, we kind of grew out of that.

Sahsas are still great btw. Niche, but OP in that niche... Unless of course you're someone that just spams pads all the time.

[SneakyErvin]

7 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

Which really doesn't happen outside of SP endurance. Even then, they're prized for dying and self reviving (which will happen a good amount in the SP depending your build). But when they die or respawn, their spores get nullified.

And for the rest of the game, you're lucky if one enemy gets spores in something like a coop kuva flood, sortie, etc... Let alone any spore spreading. (Remember, enemies have to already be affected by viral for the quills to make spores.)

So at a certain point you have to question, how important is self revival if that's all they can really do in normal missions? All sentinels in the game can already do that 4 times for the shorter missions, and my Smeeta rarely dies any way. So if you're doing 1+ hour SP runs, the fox is great; But otherwise, it's niche and overvalued by lazy people.

I very rarely have my Panzer die anywhere in Steel Path. And in other content it isnt exactly hard to get the spores up, since it takes a single quill to procs the 40% chance status and spawn the spore, after that you and everyone else spreads it just like Saryn does. Or are you under the assumption that a viral status needs to be present on the target when the quill hits, if so you are mistaken, the quill spawns a spore 40% of the time, then it ticks on and has a chance to spawn a new and so on. Then all direct hits on the spores spread them, and so does kill. They work 90% like Saryn's spores, the difference is you need the quill to proc a a viral status and the damage doesnt ramp up.

It is also funny that you are saying "my Smeeta rarely dies" then assume that the panzer for some reason dies more? Uhm what? And it isnt like their precepts serve the same purpose. The reason Panzer is nice is because it constantly heals you while increases your damage output on avarage, and in lower content it picks off random stragglers. Smeeta brings me stuff and a flat orage crit buff, something which was a straight damage debuff prior to the recent melee nerfs to the majority of weapons and still is on most of my frames due to utilizing avenger and crit builds. The only time I enjoyed charm (curse) was with Knukor really or when messing around with low crit status stacking melee weapons. At the moment I'd pick an Adarza over a Smeeta since I dont care one bit about a random loot/affinity buff. Atleast the Adarza brings me a reliable additive crit% buff with good uptime.

Self revival is the least important part of the Panzer and is really not why it is picked. If you think that is the whole reason, then you are sadly mistaken by a longshot. But it is good if you and others think that, less risk for the little fox to get nerfed.

[KitMeHarder]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

I very rarely have my Panzer die anywhere in Steel Path.

I said depending on the build. If you're just Inaros and full heal your fox every melee hit with Pack leader, sure. But using someone like Xaku and it's going to die a good amount, and if it's not you're probably killing things so fast the spores can't spread anyway. Etc...

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

after that you and everyone else spreads it just like Saryn does.

It only spreads in a 15m radius, and in the majority of missions enemies die too fast for it to even get a chance to hit them. And/or enemies spawn too infrequent for it to have anything to spread to.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

It is also funny that you are saying "my Smeeta rarely dies" then assume that the panzer for some reason dies more? Uhm what?

Well you read from 2 different sections. My Smeeta rarely dies in the other 90-95% of the game that isn't Steel Path. Where as the other part is from the fact that if you don't have a build that caters to the Panzer, it's going to die all the same on the SP and reset its spores.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

The reason Panzer is nice is because it constantly heals you while increases your damage output on avarage

I mean your logic with the Smeeta example can be applied even more-so here. If my builds already instakill enemies outside of SP, and magus elevate already heals me on demand, why would you need those from the Panzer?

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Self revival is the least important part of the Panzer and is really not why it is picked. If you think that is the whole reason, then you are sadly mistaken by a longshot.

Again, the entire game is not SP endurance. The Panzer really doesn't have a chance to be all that useful in practice while cooping in most of the game. Even in solo, if the Panzer seems useful, it's not because it's good, you're probably just running a mediocre build.

[Quimoth]

Damage wise it isn't hard to make the hounds kill if you skip the diversified denial (triple tiny hounds) and go for the reflex denial (a nyx/mag bubble kind of ability). The only downside is that it isn't very reliable and also soaks our own weapon damage in resulting in the occasional stagger or bad moments because the status procs get blocked/soaked.

With shield-gating around, moa's and hounds have become a lot more useful, guardian instantly refreshes shields and shield charger can override shield regen delay like a shield osprey/drone does for corpus/corrupted enemies.

Companions in general just aren't that strong. The best companions simply are smeeta and the vulpas. The former due to charm being arguably the only S tier companion ability, the latter due to their immortality regardless of modding.

Of all hounds I think it is safe to say the Hec hound is probably the strongest since it has the akaten gun which deals mostly slash and therefor allows for a more versatile mod configuration.

For optimal stats one would probably be looking for a hound with the Raiju Core and Urga Bracket. Shields are a useless stat on companions that can equip (primed) pack leader.

[Nexeroff]

3 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

Sahsas are still great btw. Niche, but OP in that niche... Unless of course you're someone that just spams pads all the time.

I wish they were more useful, I spent a lot of time breeding huge, bulky Lotus pattern Kubrows and would like the value to go back up so I can sell the imprints.

I am using a Dethcube for energy drops currently, the reason being is I can move around, hit a lot of targets and generate a lot of energy drops really easy.  I get what you mean, but I still feel that Kubrows need to be updated to be truly useful, staying in one place waiting for a Kubrow to dig something up really doesn't work unless you are doing specific riven challenges or you are stationary in one place, but then there is the helminth system and better options using that, that generate energy orbs more consistently along with health and ammo as well.  It seems there are always better options, with some of the Sentinels for example they are the only option, like busting open containers automatically or better options like turning ammo drops into primary ammo you are using.

There are still uses for everything that the game has evolved past and left behind, but I don't feel for the most part they are better options, only still usable.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, KitMeHarder said:

I said depending on the build. If you're just Inaros and full heal your fox every melee hit with Pack leader, sure. But using someone like Xaku and it's going to die a good amount, and if it's not you're probably killing things so fast the spores can't spread anyway. Etc...

It only spreads in a 15m radius, and in the majority of missions enemies die too fast for it to even get a chance to hit them. And/or enemies spawn too infrequent for it to have anything to spread to.

Well you read from 2 different sections. My Smeeta rarely dies in the other 90-95% of the game that isn't Steel Path. Where as the other part is from the fact that if you don't have a build that caters to the Panzer, it's going to die all the same on the SP and reset its spores.

I mean your logic with the Smeeta example can be applied even more-so here. If my builds already instakill enemies outside of SP, and magus elevate already heals me on demand, why would you need those from the Panzer?

Again, the entire game is not SP endurance. The Panzer really doesn't have a chance to be all that useful in practice while cooping in most of the game. Even in solo, if the Panzer seems useful, it's not because it's good, you're probably just running a mediocre build.

You make alot of assumption and it sounds like you havent used the panzer at all.

Everything you pin on the Panzer can be applied as drawbacks to every single companion. Adarza and Panzer still comes out on top because they actually provide you with something for your build unless your sole purpose of a companion is bonus loot, at which point Smeeta is great. Just that you use the "only spreads in a 15m radius" as a drawback is hilarious nearly all other pets except mechanicals need to be toe to toe with the enemy to do squat outside of buffing. 

You also answer your own question more or less when you ask why you need those from a panzer, because it allows you to skip those things. It allows you to also not have to waste damage uptime by popping into operator etc.

Your last parahraph can also look like this.

Quote

Again, the entire game is not SP endurance. The companions really doesn't have a chance to be all that useful in practice while cooping in most of the game. Even in solo, if the companion seems useful, it's not because it's good, you're probably just running a mediocre build.

Because what you say applies to them all. Adarza is slightly more useful since you dont need to hit anything to get a crit buff and Smeeta is slightly more useful if you need extra loot or have a poor build where you wanna rely on capped RNG crit buffs. But at the same time the Panzer kills mobs at range on their own in low level missions each 4 seconds.

So it really all comes down to. Do you want extra loot? Extra crit? Extra healing utility and debuffs, and a pet you dont need to monitor?