"Kill stealing", and the mechanics that suffer from it.

[Dunkelheit]

There is a reason behind "on kill". If you use it like this, it won't effect boss fights or Eidolons that much. Otherwise they need to rebalance all boss fights, making them probably a lot harder when low MR people have a go at it.
And honestly, instead of "on hit", you can just make the bonus permanent anyway.

[George_PPS]

19 hours ago, (PSN)Tactless_Ninja said:

So here's the issue: mechanics centered around securing personal kills. Nidus needs living enemies to build his stacks, Fatboy can't use 3 of his powers if he can't suck in a single enemy, Harrow the next Prime has a very useless ability if he can't get a shot in. 

One of my friends likes to use Nidus. He has to remind everytime to let him kill some to build up the stacks. And I do whenever he asks. Just ask and it will be given. 

[SneakyErvin]

21 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

If you consider it from the standpoint of the team's effectiveness, I think it's a non-issue.  If a player is literally having trouble obtaining kills, then the power level of the squad is probably in good shape to succeed the mission, and buffing one specific frame is more of a fun juggling act for one player than anything that will truly help the team.

That isnt entirely true. You (and many others) oversimplify the thing. We dont know the time involved for the mob to go from 100-0%, all we know is that 3/4 players in the group miss out on the killing blow. And the more those players miss out on getting the killing blow, the bigger the chance that it will escalate, since the one getting the killing blow will deal significantly more damage, meaning his killing blow threshold increases. 

People missing out on killing blows doesnt positively mean that the group is killing effectively. 

edit: And a fun thing is with Nidus solo. He actually needs to make up his mind if he wants to buff himself or his weapons for each enemy he kills. And if he is melee focused with ranged as a fill in he needs to decide if he wants to increase the arcane buff, the ranged weapon buff or his stacks.

 

[(PSN)Unstar]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

People missing out on killing blows doesnt positively mean that the group is killing effectively. 

If we're talking about people consistently missing out on killing blows, then I don't think there's any other explanation besides the group being in good shape.  If the group is in bad shape, that would mean there are more enemies than the group is able to handle.  If a group is being even slightly overwhelmed by enemies and a Tenno still can't get even a single kill...it just doesn't make sense how that could happen.  It sounds to me like a hypothetical situation that won't ever truly exist.  Have you ever been in this situation?  I'm guessing not, but let me know if I'm mistaken.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

If we're talking about people consistently missing out on killing blows, then I don't think there's any other explanation besides the group being in good shape.  If the group is in bad shape, that would mean there are more enemies than the group is able to handle.  If a group is being even slightly overwhelmed by enemies and a Tenno still can't get even a single kill...it just doesn't make sense how that could happen.  It sounds to me like a hypothetical situation that won't ever truly exist.  Have you ever been in this situation?  I'm guessing not, but let me know if I'm mistaken.

There are other factors aswell, like AoE finishing of mobs and so on. And yes it is a hypothetical situation, however the Nidus example isnt, since it is a very true thing for a solo Nidus even if people dont actually think about it, you must decide between the two, there is no way around that. There is a reason why on-kill in these types of games are regarded as "lol" stats and mechanics that are never used if there are options like on-hit or on-crit and other variables that dont require you to get the killing blow to benefit.

Just because "it works" in WF doesnt mean it is good or justifiable. Because it does nothing to hinder already powerful builds, which in reality would be the sole reason to have on-kill in the first place, since they think on-hit would "stack too quickly" or something similar. You can see this clear line of thinking with the berserker change, which in the end is laughable really because in the gameplay we have access to on-hit/crit or on-kill with a melee is essentially the same. You can also see this odd penalizing decision on the merciless arcanes even though DE said they wanted us to use more of our kit actively. That arcane goes against all of that since it has a whooping 4 second duration per stack. There is no reason to pick that arcane up even if you run a full ranged build, since you are better of with a dex arcane and a glaive/gunblade in that case, since it requires you to get 6 kills only and then relies on a lengthy duration per stack, which means you then only need to kill a single enemy each 20 sec or so to keep it maxed while having access to both your primary and secondary fully stacked at all times as needed. Not only that, but your swap speed will be much higher aswell to utilize your kit as needed.

There are alot of flaws with the ranged update, things that dont seem very well thought through before being implemented.

[(PSN)Unstar]

43 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Just because "it works" in WF doesnt mean it is good or justifiable.

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying on-kill mechanics are necessarily what's best for the game in terms of design, just saying that not being able to trigger them in a squad setting isn't a particularly bad place for a team to be in.  I haven't felt inspired to intentionally collect any of the gun arcanes; I find the amount of damage that I do without the new Merciless optimization to be more than satisfactory, and the designers will have to pry Amalgam Serration from my cold, dead hands. ^^

[BahamutKaiser]

This isn't a Nidus problem, it's a Harrow Problem. Even your own kills won't trigger some effects, like getting a status kill with a mod that activated on headshot kills.

This is a horde shooter, some frames drop bodies without seeing them like Saryn. Nidus has already been relieved of this problem, if anything, they need to review the duration on Harrow's abilities, it's counter intuitive to hoard shooting. 

[Tiltskillet]

On 2021-09-02 at 7:31 AM, (PSN)Tactless_Ninja said:

Nidus needs living enemies to build his stacks, Fatboy can't use 3 of his powers if he can't suck in a single enemy, Harrow the next Prime has a very useless ability if he can't get a shot in. 

I don't play Nidus, but Harrow can be really frustrating.  And in the case of his ult, there's also "incoming damage" stealing.  So it can feel like he's getting screwed over not just by DPS frames and AoE weapons, but also by CC and protective abilities.

And then, going back to "kill stealing", there's his focus on headshots.  It's not actually necessary, but I can imagine how many people toss him in the trash because they've got this idea in their mind about methodically nailing headshots and that playstyle is harder to pull off now than it's ever been.

Add to all that the fact that he can spend a fair amount of time casting rather than trying to keep up with kills, and he's not that mobile, and that many players are never going to notice his contributions anyway, and...

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

On 2021-09-02 at 10:31 PM, (PSN)Tactless_Ninja said:

Alright so this has been bugging me awhile and now with Nidus Prime around the corner might be a good time to bring it up again? I haven't been reading posts lately so I don't know what the consensus is. 

So here's the issue: mechanics centered around securing personal kills. Nidus needs living enemies to build his stacks, Fatboy can't use 3 of his powers if he can't suck in a single enemy, Harrow the next Prime has a very useless ability if he can't get a shot in. 

These issues probably drop off the more you play higher level content, but the higher level content suffers the same issue. Primary arcanes demand sacrifice to maintain their killing prowess and are constantly losing power. It's like using a manual crank flashlight. Constantly dull.

Should team mechanics be taken into consideration more? Auras buffed? I mean Limbo still hasn't been deleted so I doubt it. Even story mode depicts a lone Tenno. 

In content where Nidus needs his stacks, he doesn’t have to worry about “kill stealing.”

the term “kill stealing,” or KSing, is used in player versus player games, predominantly MOBAs. It’s a big deal there because getting the last hit gives you a significant amount of gold. But in PVE games? Specifically content where the objective is to kill trash mobs? That’s not KSing. That’s playing the objective, and no amount of whinging is going to prevent a majority of the playerbase from playing the game.

 

Nidus doesn’t need full stacks 2 minutes into a level 40 exterminate.

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

11 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

I don't play Nidus, but Harrow can be really frustrating.  And in the case of his ult, there's also "incoming damage" stealing.  So it can feel like he's getting screwed over not just by DPS frames and AoE weapons, but also by CC and protective abilities.

And then, going back to "kill stealing", there's his focus on headshots.  It's not actually necessary, but I can imagine how many people toss him in the trash because they've got this idea in their mind about methodically nailing headshots and that playstyle is harder to pull off now than it's ever been.

Add to all that the fact that he can spend a fair amount of time casting rather than trying to keep up with kills, and he's not that mobile, and that many players are never going to notice his contributions anyway, and...

Harrow has his 1 to give him easy head shots, it really isn’t that methodical, and there’s nothing about the game that’s made shooting stationary targets in the head anymore difficult that it was 2-3 years ago.

Like I said in a previous comment, in content where Nidus needs stacks, he doesn’t need to worry about kill stealing. It’s exactly the same thing with Harrow. In content where his invulnerability is actually necessary, it works amazingly. But if you’re casting 4 and getting no value out of it, that’s a user error. You can’t blame your squad mates for you casting a bad 4.

[Tiltskillet]

11 hours ago, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

Harrow has his 1 to give him easy head shots, it really isn’t that methodical, and there’s nothing about the game that’s made shooting stationary targets in the head anymore difficult that it was 2-3 years ago.

With a squad of three other people methodically using single target weapons, yes, it's no more difficult than it was.  But that situation in random squads has gone from "uncommon" to "rare" to nearly "technically extinct, lol".

11 hours ago, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

Like I said in a previous comment, in content where Nidus needs stacks, he doesn’t need to worry about kill stealing. It’s exactly the same thing with Harrow. In content where his invulnerability is actually necessary, it works amazingly. But if you’re casting 4 and getting no value out of it, that’s a user error. You can’t blame your squad mates for you casting a bad 4.

And I agree.  But I'm not talking about "blame" at all.  I'm talking about the reality of the game as I see it.  That reality is, it's a game largely about playing Warframes, and it's the most fun to me when I feel like my frame choice contributes to team success.  Those situations with Harrow are more rare now, largely as a result of the game's drift toward speed runs, AoE kills, and overwhelming CC.

A lot of that isn't really addressable unless there's a sea change in the game's meta that's, frankly, unlikely.  Some of it could be improved through smallish changes in Harrow's kit. Also unlikely, given Pablo's comments at Tennocon. In the meantime, I'll still play Harrow and have a good time doing it.  It'll just be more often  solo or hallway heroing and with AoE weapons than seems entirely natural for what's ostensibly a support frame and the High Priest of Headshots.

[SneakyErvin]

20 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying on-kill mechanics are necessarily what's best for the game in terms of design, just saying that not being able to trigger them in a squad setting isn't a particularly bad place for a team to be in.  I haven't felt inspired to intentionally collect any of the gun arcanes; I find the amount of damage that I do without the new Merciless optimization to be more than satisfactory, and the designers will have to pry Amalgam Serration from my cold, dead hands. ^^

I got the arcanes since more damage is always more damage and I hate empty potential gear slot etc. in games. I will however not ever replace Amalgam Serration even if I could in order to optimize builds. It is the same reason I dont use shotguns in my primary slots, since I prefer the movement speed of AS.

[Sloan441]

If it was your kill, you'd have killed it. 

There's no kill stealing. 

If you have difficulty getting abilities ramped up, then the enemies don't require that level of effort to deal with. In other words, you're fiddling while your teammates are running the table. 

Bad game design? Eh, maybe, but we all know--or should know--why this is as it is. The game is quite old at this point and progression of, well, about everything has trivialized much of the base game. If you're anywhere near a maxed out progression with mods, forma, catalysts/reactors, arcanes, and a bevy of other whatsits, then much of the star chart isn't going to be a particular challenge. 

Congrats. You've won the game. 

 

[(PSN)Unstar]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

I will however not ever replace Amalgam Serration even if I could in order to optimize builds. It is the same reason I dont use shotguns in my primary slots, since I prefer the movement speed of AS.

A kindred spirit! <3

[Lutesque]

On 2021-09-02 at 4:38 PM, ZeroX4 said:

Thats why kill buffs are stupid

I avoid "On Kill" Effects like the plague...

This isn't even a Warframe specific thing... On Kill Effects are universally stupid in every game I've encountered them.

On 2021-09-02 at 4:38 PM, ZeroX4 said:

Hit buffs are the only proper way

Preach !!! ❤️

On 2021-09-02 at 4:45 PM, ReddyDisco said:

Wasn't Nidus' larva changed so it gives stacks even if teammates killed the enemies it sucks up?

Twas an Augment I think... 🤔...

17 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

I don't play Nidus, but Harrow can be really frustrating.  And in the case of his ult, there's also "incoming damage" stealing.  So it can feel like he's getting screwed over not just by DPS frames and AoE weapons, but also by CC and protective abilities.

Chroma and Garuda nod Firmly....

Basically the main issue is with "Anti-Synergies"...

16 hours ago, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

Nidus doesn’t need full stacks 2 minutes into a level 40 exterminate.

Probably not.... But I would still cry about not getting them....it's 100% or nothing... Even if only 1% will suffice 😈 !!!

16 hours ago, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

 

Like I said in a previous comment, in content where Nidus needs stacks, he doesn’t need to worry about kill stealing. It’s exactly the same thing with Harrow. In content where his invulnerability is actually necessary, it works amazingly. But if you’re casting 4 and getting no value out of it, that’s a user error. You can’t blame your squad mates for you casting a bad 4.

But 4 is the only way to make the numbers turn Red.... 😭

Playing Harrow isn't about actually being effective... It's about that Red Crit Power Trip... If you deprive that from players then they're going to complain... Regardless of how well The Priest Edge Lord is actually doing...

3 hours ago, Sloan441 said:

If it was your kill, you'd have killed it. 

LoL.... I don't agree... But found this Amusing Anyway... 😉

 

[Flannoit]

On 2021-09-02 at 7:45 AM, ReddyDisco said:

Wasn't Nidus' larva changed so it gives stacks even if teammates killed the enemies it sucks up?

I don't remember this change, and if it IS a thing that's supposed to happen, it very extremely doesn't work. And unfortunately, that doesn't solve the issue of Nidus being prevented from utilizing Virulence well, since Larva exists to group for Virulence.

Nidus currently does not play nice in any sort of party play content, since he requires mutation stacks to effectively do literally anything, and party play heavily prevents him from getting stacks in the first place, especially since his 3 provides zero utility to his stack economy and his 4 provides very little, while both actively consume stacks.

1 stack (5 charges) to gain 0 charges in any circumstance, or 3 stacks (15 charges) to gain a charge if your maggot actually deals the final blow on an enemy (they won't) with a maximum of 9 maggots alive at a time (non-Ravenous maggots do not contribute to stack economy on any end) meaning that even then you are gaining stacks drastically slower than you're spending them.

Your maggots need to consume 15 enemies in order to refund Ravenous ONCE, which I remind you literally will not happen. This is slightly alleviated since popping your maggots contribute as well, but that also relies on being able to see them in the mess, and sometimes you don't have the time to hold Virulence just to see where your maggots are to try to get an actual refund.

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

10 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

With a squad of three other people methodically using single target weapons, yes, it's no more difficult than it was.  But that situation in random squads has gone from "uncommon" to "rare" to nearly "technically extinct, lol".

And I agree.  But I'm not talking about "blame" at all.  I'm talking about the reality of the game as I see it.  That reality is, it's a game largely about playing Warframes, and it's the most fun to me when I feel like my frame choice contributes to team success.  Those situations with Harrow are more rare now, largely as a result of the game's drift toward speed runs, AoE kills, and overwhelming CC.

A lot of that isn't really addressable unless there's a sea change in the game's meta that's, frankly, unlikely.  Some of it could be improved through smallish changes in Harrow's kit. Also unlikely, given Pablo's comments at Tennocon. In the meantime, I'll still play Harrow and have a good time doing it.  It'll just be more often  solo or hallway heroing and with AoE weapons than seems entirely natural for what's ostensibly a support frame and the High Priest of Headshots.

Your frame choice is irrelevant towards the teams success in low level content. The same low level content where nuke weapons dominate.

 

 

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

5 hours ago, Lutesque said:

I avoid "On Kill" Effects like the plague...

This isn't even a Warframe specific thing... On Kill Effects are universally stupid in every game I've encountered them.

Preach !!! ❤️

Twas an Augment I think... 🤔...

Chroma and Garuda nod Firmly....

Basically the main issue is with "Anti-Synergies"...

Probably not.... But I would still cry about not getting them....it's 100% or nothing... Even if only 1% will suffice 😈 !!!

But 4 is the only way to make the numbers turn Red.... 😭

Playing Harrow isn't about actually being effective... It's about that Red Crit Power Trip... If you deprive that from players then they're going to complain... Regardless of how well The Priest Edge Lord is actually doing...

LoL.... I don't agree... But found this Amusing Anyway... 😉

 

None of your responses were substantive enough to engage with. To the point where your lack of substance was the only remarkable thing about your comment. Hence why I’m remarking on it. Maybe don’t spread yourself so thin, responding to so many people?

[ReddyDisco]

5 hours ago, Flannoit said:

I don't remember this change, and if it IS a thing that's supposed to happen, it very extremely doesn't work. And unfortunately, that doesn't solve the issue of Nidus being prevented from utilizing Virulence well, since Larva exists to group for Virulence.

It was November of 2020, don't quite remember the patch number, did a search of my discord and got the date atleast

Larva: Enemies killed while held have a chance of generating a Mutation stack for Nidus.

Wiki doesn't quite say the exact chance of getting a stack either " Enemies killed while held by  Larva also have a ?% chance to generate 1 Mutation stack."

[Tesseract7777]

On 2021-09-03 at 9:48 PM, Tiltskillet said:

I don't play Nidus, but Harrow can be really frustrating.  And in the case of his ult, there's also "incoming damage" stealing.  So it can feel like he's getting screwed over not just by DPS frames and AoE weapons, but also by CC and protective abilities.

And then, going back to "kill stealing", there's his focus on headshots.  It's not actually necessary, but I can imagine how many people toss him in the trash because they've got this idea in their mind about methodically nailing headshots and that playstyle is harder to pull off now than it's ever been.

Add to all that the fact that he can spend a fair amount of time casting rather than trying to keep up with kills, and he's not that mobile, and that many players are never going to notice his contributions anyway, and...

Just use Tribunal and spam Condemn idk. 

It's a terrible bandaid, but at least its a bandaid. 

Or if its a non endless just make your build for condemn and Covenant only. 

I love Harrow and in missions where Penance and Thurible are hard to get use of properly, they aren't needed, so I consider it a win win. 

And I just focus on his other abilities instead.

I am not saying Harrow couldn't be improved at all...... buuuuut, I think people are exaggarting how bad his issues are a tad, tad, tad, just a taaaaaaad little bit here. 

My main change to Harrow is that imo Tribunal shouldn't be an augment, at the very least, it should be base part of Condemn ability synergies with his two ramp up/restore abilities. 

[LillyRaccune]

6 minutes ago, ReddyDisco said:

It was November of 2020, don't quite remember the patch number

Here you go:  Update 29.5.0 Deimos Arcana

You are correct: there is no official number or percent to represent "a chance" to generate a mutation stack.

DE really should specify exactly how much of a chance it is. It could be bugged this whole time and we wouldn't know.

@[DE]Momaw Can you tell us the exact chance of generating a Mutation stack for enemies held by Larva but killed by allies?

 

[ReddyDisco]

43 minutes ago, LillyRaccune said:

Here you go:  Update 29.5.0 Deimos Arcana

You are correct: there is no official number or percent to represent "a chance" to generate a mutation stack.

DE really should specify exactly how much of a chance it is. It could be bugged this whole time and we wouldn't know.

@[DE]Momaw Can you tell us the exact chance of generating a Mutation stack for enemies held by Larva but killed by allies?

 

[Tesseract7777]

1 minute ago, ReddyDisco said:

Indeed. Big ups to the people who bring the receipts. 

[Slayer-.]

 

On 2021-09-03 at 12:45 AM, ReddyDisco said:

Wasn't Nidus' larva changed so it gives stacks even if teammates killed the enemies it sucks up?

On 2021-09-03 at 2:22 AM, Slayer-. said:

He was, though I can't find it at the moment, like you stated if other players kill enemies in the larva Nidus gets stacks or some of them, not sure, my mind's on the fritz.

When I heard it I thought hell yeah stop my mates killing everything before I could build stacks.

1 hour ago, ReddyDisco said:

It was November of 2020, don't quite remember the patch number, did a search of my discord and got the date atleast

Larva: Enemies killed while held have a chance of generating a Mutation stack for Nidus.

Wiki doesn't quite say the exact chance of getting a stack either " Enemies killed while held by  Larva also have a ?% chance to generate 1 Mutation stack."

48 minutes ago, LillyRaccune said:

Here you go:  Update 29.5.0 Deimos Arcana

You are correct: there is no official number or percent to represent "a chance" to generate a mutation stack.

DE really should specify exactly how much of a chance it is. It could be bugged this whole time and we wouldn't know.

@[DE]Momaw Can you tell us the exact chance of generating a Mutation stack for enemies held by Larva but killed by allies?

 

Awesome, I knew someone would go dig it up. 

Yes it would be nice to know the percentage or a number of enemies killed in there, the wiki was a bit vague.

[Tiltskillet]

11 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

My main change to Harrow is that imo Tribunal shouldn't be an augment, at the very least, it should be base part of Condemn ability synergies with his two ramp up/restore abilities. 

Yep, something like that is my #1 change I'd like to see on him as well.  Only difference is I don't think it needs to be Tribunal's 50% conversion--just 15 or 25 would be a huuge improvement on his kit.  There's a few other odds and ends I'd like to see too--Retaliation having a higher minimum bonus, another couple of meters of base range on Condemn, being able to sprint while channeling Thurible.  And I'd like another component to his passive:  some bonus start of mission energy based on shield amount, just to get rolling right away.

But that's all pretty minor stuff compared to some innate Tribunal.