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Its time to remove affinity range - in every gamemode


DreisterDino
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44 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

I dont understand people who in a questionable attempt to inconvenience leechers will take on any and all inconveniences themselves. If someone is leeching, report and move on. Dont try to prevent the game from becoming better for people who play normally.

In regards to the affinity range, good chances are what you consider to be an inconvenience isn't to others.

The problem with reporting things like this is that support (of any game) has to assume that there's an inconvenience the one being reported was dealing with. That ambiguity can be manipulated; what fits in this category:

  • Players not being able to get kills of their own because someone(s) is mass killing that leaves no opportunity for them.
  • Host migration that causes other players to lose rewards because they know how to do it. The picture below gives off that the disconnection was intentional. If they didn't say anything and I still make a report it won't be as strong.
Spoiler

QDzeYnu.png

  • (Don't know if this has been address) In the open worlds, the player that goes off doing their own thing besides the active bounty. They get both bounty reward and their own business, while the player that did the bounty only gets the bounty reward.

It's better to stop it in the game via mechanics then to waiver it off to support in which they have to consider it wasn't leech out of harm.

 

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29 minutes ago, NekroArts said:

In regards to the affinity range, good chances are what you consider to be an inconvenience isn't to others.

If one person experiences an inconvenience and another person doesn't, then at the end of the day someone is still being inconvenienced... That inconvenience is still worthy of being addressed even if there are some who don't experience it.

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Affinity range is intended to promote teamplay and staying together, while the need for teamplay is topic for another discussion removing it would just encourage more afk playstyle from leeches.

I personally have no need for affinity from squad since i solo stealth level weapons & frames in adaro in 3min and don't bring unleveled stuff on pub missions

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Why would you choose to play in a group and then not play in a group?  I think affinity range is required when playing in random pubs where nobody has any connection with anyone else.  In this way, if they want affinity they have to stay close, are encouraged to res people that die and there is another benefit as well.

It seems to me everyone wants to be a kill count hero, they want that end score.  So you enter a mission like Survival and people run off in 4 different directions.  There is a max spawn limit of enemies, so what essentially people do, with or without realizing it, is splitting how many enemies spawn in any given area where if they all stayed within affinity range not only would they benefit from that range, but they also spawn enemies in the same general area, enemies are killed/die faster, more resources are shared by everyone including oxygen.

Same thing with excavation, I will never understand those people who run off starting excavators all over the map, it drags the mission on and on and on when if you simply stayed on one, or two that are close enemies spawn in the same general area and drop power cells which, makes the entire mission go smooth and fast.  People that play in a "team" are not earning affinity by not playing with that team as they should.  I feel if they are going to queue for a group, to play in a team, they should play as a team. 

There are also people who do not contribute at all in any way, even in a way that makes the missions drag on and on like excavation.  They just run around breaking containers farming while everyone else does the work, these people also are not awarded with affinity.

If you want to benefit from playing with other people, and since people play with no common sense leaching off the group effort while not contributing or making the mission more cumbersome than it needs to be, then they should not get affinity from others.

Anyway, if you are seriously training something then you probably are going to a small tileset like Hydron where nobody can ever get out of affinity range unless two people are on polar opposites of the map.  The affinity range in this case, creates a place where everyone goes to train, that being Hydron.  If there was no affinity range, then people would not specifically play any particular mission and that resource, that fast training on a small tileset would not exist.  There would still be SO of course, but a quick Hydron mission for me is far more appealing than SO.

If you want to run all over the map not benefiting your team mates, and playing more solo, then why not just queue for solo?  Use Hydron or SO to train, affinity is not an issue at all, and solo the other content you want to run amok in.  Removing affinity only encourages people to leach in a random pub and not really contribute to the team effort.

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9 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Or more to my point, if changing the game's "playing together but alone" thing is desirable (I think that it is) then addressing that through actual gameplay mechanics and design would be far preferable to relying on a weak punishment for being too far away.

Oh, I totally agree.  But I think we're pretty well stuck with affinity range or very similar mechanics.   Unless you can persuade DE to have actual threatening content that punishes people for straying too far from the group.  Or explicit inter-frame synergies.  Or matchmaking that  tries to put people of like power together.  All of those things are a lot of work, and bring up plenty of side-issues.

Assuming none of that comes to pass, Affinity is better than nothing IMO.  Actually, I think it might be worth expanding to drop  chance modifiers, energy regen, ability strength bonuses and the like.     I mean, half of the OP's complaint is that  staying in affinity range often doesn't amount to much benefit for the trouble.  That's true!  So maybe make it mean something.

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10 minutes ago, Nexeroff said:

There is a max spawn limit of enemies, so what essentially people do, with or without realizing it, is splitting how many enemies spawn in any given area where if they all stayed within affinity range not only would they benefit from that range, but they also spawn enemies in the same general area, enemies are killed/die faster, more resources are shared by everyone including oxygen.

10 minutes ago, Nexeroff said:

They just run around breaking containers farming while everyone else does the work, these people also are not awarded with affinity.

10 minutes ago, Nexeroff said:

while not contributing or making the mission more cumbersome than it needs to be, then they should not get affinity from others.

14 minutes ago, Nexeroff said:

If you want to run all over the map not benefiting your team mates, and playing more solo, then why not just queue for solo?

14 minutes ago, Nexeroff said:

Removing affinity only encourages people to leach in a random pub and not really contribute to the team effort.

Ok, sure. People that run off currently don't contribute to the squad. They drag away enemy spawns and they don't contribute to your Affinity and you have to run around after them to pick up their drops. This sucks, yeah?

So it seems to me that if the rest of the game had Railjack's infinite Affinity Range and shared pickups then those people you're complaining about would suddenly be contributing. Someone running off to break containers means you get more loot. You get any Affinity from the enemies they kill. The spawns being split no longer matters, because every kill and every item they pick up now benefits you.

Like, I get it. People can currently play in ways that don't contribute. So why is your answer to that problem - which you seem to feel very strongly about - to do nothing about it? People aren't going to listen to you and "just go solo", they're going to continue doing whatever the they like and you're going to continue to get nothing for it.

6 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Assuming none of that comes to pass, Affinity is better than nothing IMO.  Actually, I think it might be worth expanding to drop  chance modifiers, energy regen, ability strength bonuses and the like.     I mean, half of the OP's complaint is that  staying in affinity range often doesn't amount to much benefit for the trouble.  That's true!  So maybe make it mean something.

Even if boosters were tied to Affinity Range people would still run off, and then you wouldn't get their boosters either. All you'd be doing is shooting yourself in the foot.

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5 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Even if boosters were tied to Affinity Range people would still run off, and then you wouldn't get their boosters either. All you'd be doing is shooting yourself in the foot

Worst case scenario is the same as now.  Well, that's not totally true.  Worst case scenario is pretty much same as now, plus more  uh, energetic nagging about staying in affinity range. 😋

But I still think it's worth a try. 

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Not sure if there's any real problem with removing affinity range as long as any features that use it are accounted for, but my issue with survival mission is the lack of incentive to stick together other than enemy spawns and affinity. I'd rather survival change(maybe something like enemies rush a life support station every now and then to try destroy it before its use) than affinity range because I don't find it that hard to level stuff up while I do fissures or other tasks. 

Edited by NecroPed
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10 hours ago, DreisterDino said:
  • yes, Fosfor Blau/Rahd exists and i actually spam them when i level stuff. But imo thats just a poor bandaid which takes your ressources and forces you to keep track of another timed "ability" on top of all the other stuff thats going on. Finally, people still manage to even leave the increased affinity range..

 

Wow, there are players who actually use that stuff??

Edited by Aazhyd
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19 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Worst case scenario is pretty much same as now, plus more  uh, energetic nagging about staying in affinity range. 😋

That doesn't really sound like a desirable outcome, lol.

I can see the threads already. You think people get mad over Affinity or Murmurs, just wait till it's boosters too.

Edited by PublikDomain
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11 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

I think the affinity range limitations dont have any reason to be in the game anymore.

In my opinion, it has no benefits and only reduces the fun in public groups.

 

Railjack made me notice that it is a lot more fun to play with randoms if affinity range is unlimited and you dont have to care about staying together.

I guess the "staying together" part might come up as a benefit for this system but lets be real:

  • the players who ignore their squad will continue to do so even if you ask them to stay together in most cases
  • also, should we even tell other players to not explore the map and find ayatans for example while other players do other stuff?
  • yes, Fosfor Blau/Rahd exists and i actually spam them when i level stuff. But imo thats just a poor bandaid which takes your ressources and forces you to keep track of another timed "ability" on top of all the other stuff thats going on. Finally, people still manage to even leave the increased affinity range..

 

The fact that we now have a "normal" survival mission with affinity range and a "railjack" survival without affinity range shows that there is no justification for this system in 2021 anymore. The Railjack Version becomes the exact same mission after the beginning, still affinity range is handled differently (i know that most likely they are unable to code it in a different way, but that doesnt invalidates my point i think).

 

I am just sick of trying to stay in affinity range with everyone when leveling stuff.

The process is slow enough already, i dont think we need this extra-hurdle.

And i dont want to tell my squadmates to stay together, in my experience either players want to stay together, or they dont - but a system like this doesnt change their behaviour.

 

What do you guys think?

Yes please, the affinity system is just stupid, Its like "stay together for more xp!!" Well, Im a space ninja that can solo delete everything, why I need to stay close to other players for more xp? What's the logic on this? 

But the king of stupid and outdated thing is.... The FORMA system!!

Yeah I just got my gun at lv30, cool!! Now my gun will destroy everything!!

Game: hehe NO!! This is just the first step to build a weapon!!

Ok so..why I can't put more mods in my gun? Its not over yet!

Game: Great! Then just put a Forma and go level up your gun again, have fun doing this over and over and with some weapons you need 5 Formas.

Hydron Its like the second Orbital in the game..

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Crazy stupid idea, but hear me out;

What if… Turn bonus affinity radius into an item, make it stronger and infinite in range, but everyone gets debuffed on damage and health.

Eh? Eeehh? Solo is now not for those looking for a challenge, but for those looking to feel overpowered.

Players have trouble sticking together because game’s too easy, so make the game co-opable for bonus exp. Players get their chance to get some kills because the damage is reduced. Trolls get the chance to make the mission harder for those involved. It’d be weird as all hell from an in-game reasoning perspective.

Tell me it’s a loved idea 👍 

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
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vor 4 Stunden schrieb NekroArts:

In regards to the affinity range, good chances are what you consider to be an inconvenience isn't to others.

The problem with reporting things like this is that support (of any game) has to assume that there's an inconvenience the one being reported was dealing with. That ambiguity can be manipulated; what fits in this category:

  • Players not being able to get kills of their own because someone(s) is mass killing that leaves no opportunity for them.
  • Host migration that causes other players to lose rewards because they know how to do it. The picture below gives off that the disconnection was intentional. If they didn't say anything and I still make a report it won't be as strong.
  Unsichtbaren Inhalt anzeigen

QDzeYnu.png

  • (Don't know if this has been address) In the open worlds, the player that goes off doing their own thing besides the active bounty. They get both bounty reward and their own business, while the player that did the bounty only gets the bounty reward.

It's better to stop it in the game via mechanics then to waiver it off to support in which they have to consider it wasn't leech out of harm.

 

Making all pickups shared would balance out that last situation. And currently leeching is not only not stopped by game mechanics, it is encouraged. The way the affinity sharing works makes it insanely more convenient to let someone else do leveling for you than to level your weapons yourself.

Many missions are not really coop but instead up to 4 people soloing the mission independently, plains bounties are a fitting example for that. I've been in both situations: either I snipe away every drop ship as it spawns or I dont get to interact with any enemies the entire stage. Plains bounties are not designed to have multiple people participate. IMO leeching is only a symptom of bad mission design. I do however trust you to not just report based on mission end stats. In many short missions it becomes indistinguishable if someone is just slow or actively choosing not to contribute. Obviously if you make reports without being able to back anything up you dont deserve to have your reports taken seriously.

Your points reinforce my believe that it's good that you have to go out of your way to report someone for leeching and cant just click their name and instantly send an automated report.

Host migrations not functioning properly isnt something new and is an issue that needs to be adressed but that's a seperate issue, I am not sure why you are brining up that point.

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I have been a staunch opponent of AFK leeching.

If this were to be implemented i expect we will have more players sitting away in pipes or running around in circles in some place out of reach.

I personally feel you should only gain affinity for actual actions and not merely being present while someone else does most of the work. Affinity sharing should be limited to times when you actually provide some sort of support (buffs/debuffs/kill assist damage etc).

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vor 9 Stunden schrieb Voltage:

While Affinity Range isn't a great mechanic, this topic to me sounds like the old request for self-revive  (which we now have). It ultimately further kills co-op in this game and makes it even more mind-numbing. Likewise, more changes like this further devalue proper team composition.

Lowering the bar further and further for players is honestly part of what hollows out the experience Warframe offers and leaves many invested players bored between updates that overshadow the previous ones.

I totally get yours and others approach that removing affinity range will "kill" coop.

but i see a few problems with it:

  1. like mentioned, the people who tend to run away do it anyway already (i mean, the terms hallway hero, leech etc already exists and we have several topics about them because affinity range isnt a system which stops these problems). People even do it in fissures where in theory, there is an extra system which tries to encourage us to stay together. So basically, this system punishes the ones who care about staying together, not the players who dont care.
  2. leeching - well, in more or less every mission there are players just standing around doing pretty much nothing (basically no damage dealt, no kills etc). Ok, they are doing nothing within affinity range, but is that really so much better?

 

Zitat

I much rather DE work on more mechanics and changes that encourage people to play in a group and make co-op important.

Removing Affinity Range isn't a good change right now, but maybe this would be better suited once DE makes co-op play important enough to not need this mechanic.

I 100% agree Voltage although it seems we have different opinions. I would also love to have more co-op in this game, and in the past i posted ideas for missions/bounties which encourage teamplay. But the reality is, when DE even comes close to creating something worth calling co-op, there are many players who dont like it because "its not solo-friendly" / "its just annoying and takes longer" / "i dont want to have to rely on teammates, everyone else is bad at the game and i dont want to fail because of them" etc etc etc

 

Also, lets look at the recent past and the one gamemode which added co-op mechanics, Railjack.

Everything which can be called co-op gameplay here revolves around splitting your team up making them go in different areas.

For example destroying the shipkiller platform, it needs us to have 1 team inside and 1 team in Railjack to do it effectively.

 

Maybe i am missing something, but is there just one single mission in which co-op gameplay exists and is important in combination with staying together?

I can only think of missions which have some sort of co-op (meaning dedicated tasks for different players), and they all make us split the team up.

 

What are mechanics that produce co-op gameplay and make us stay together?

This could be a) special enemies which need teamwork in order to be taken down or b) different tasks for players in one spot.

But the reality is: No one wants this (yes, you might want it, i might like it, and a handful of others aswell, but the majority?)

 

So why are we keeping a system that tries but fails to force some sort of co-op?

The system which tries to ensure some sort of co-op gameplay is the only reason to co-op to begin with because mostly there are no other reasons.

 

"We cannot think of anything that makes you play together through mission design, so we will simply punish everyone who leaves the squad even though there is no actual reason for sticking together". Thats how it feels... we somehow want co-op in this game, but we dont really want co-op in this game. Creating co-op gameplay is too much for both DE and the players, but we still want you to stay together...because reasons.

Edited by DreisterDino
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vor einer Stunde schrieb Drachnyn:

Making all pickups shared would balance out that last situation. And currently leeching is not only not stopped by game mechanics, it is encouraged. The way the affinity sharing works makes it insanely more convenient to let someone else do leveling for you than to level your weapons yourself.

Many missions are not really coop but instead up to 4 people soloing the mission independently, plains bounties are a fitting example for that. I've been in both situations: either I snipe away every drop ship as it spawns or I dont get to interact with any enemies the entire stage. Plains bounties are not designed to have multiple people participate. IMO leeching is only a symptom of bad mission design.

This is really important imo, and the dropship example is perfect and can be copied to many other missions aswell (defense with certain frames in your squad, there will be simply nothing left to do for you). So what does this system effectivly do? It forces me to stay in a place where i have nothing to do.

 

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Nexeroff:

Use Hydron or SO to train, affinity is not an issue at all, and solo the other content you want to run amok in.  Removing affinity only encourages people to leach in a random pub and not really contribute to the team effort.

I play this game for quiet some time, and Warframe has hundreds of weapons, tons of frames and each of them wants you to put several forma into them.

I simply prefer to level my stuff in "normal" gameplay in missions in which i can do other stuff aswell even if its slower, i have been in hydron enough.

Besides that, how is having 2 dedicated levelling/leeching spots and playing the rest solo more co-op?

 

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Dunkelheit:

I need 4 minutes to level up a warframe solo and 2 minutes to level a weapon to 30.
The info how to do this is readily available. Why are we even discussing this?

I dont get the logic here?

So you say we only should level stuff in Adaro because its fast.

This also means that we shouldn't level anything in other mission with other players = affinity doesnt matter at all.

 

If thats the case i agree, why are we even discussing this?

We can just remove affinity range completly because in this scenario, no one needs affinity in public matches anyway.

 

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14 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

I think the affinity range limitations dont have any reason to be in the game anymore.

What do you guys think?

I agree that it should be removed except that the range may keep players stay closer together? 

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2 hours ago, DreisterDino said:
7 hours ago, Nexeroff said:

Use Hydron or SO to train, affinity is not an issue at all, and solo the other content you want to run amok in.  Removing affinity only encourages people to leach in a random pub and not really contribute to the team effort.

I play this game for quiet some time, and Warframe has hundreds of weapons, tons of frames and each of them wants you to put several forma into them.

I simply prefer to level my stuff in "normal" gameplay in missions in which i can do other stuff aswell even if its slower, i have been in hydron enough.

Besides that, how is having 2 dedicated levelling/leeching spots and playing the rest solo more co-op?

I never said it was more co-op, you said that.  What I said was that if you want affinity and want to assure you get affinity then do SO or Hydron or an equally similar map that is relatively small.  I suggested that if you are concerned about affinity in other missions, then do it solo. 

Where you were mistaken about what I said is this.  In order to make any given mission more co-op, affinity is used to keep people together.  If you don't want to play together then play solo.  People run off in every other direction and cause the mission to be slower, take more time, etc as I described already, imagine how it might be if they could be anywhere on the map, leaching off you doing the mission while they did whatever else, like break containers.  There are still people who do that in missions, it would be so much worse if there was no affinity rage.

I am a huge fan of affinity range even though there are only a few things left I can possibly train, I still make sure I keep within that range, it acts like a guide for me.  I know if I am out of affinity range I might miss helping someone kill something that spawns, or to rez them when they go down, or to receive buffs from them, etc. 

So if we get rid of affinity range, then what's next buff range?  So anyone can be buffed anywhere on the map?  Doesn't make any sense at all, not even a tiny little bit.  We need affinity range if for no other reason than to keep selfish people from abusing the good nature of the rest of us.

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7 hours ago, Nexeroff said:

We need affinity range if for no other reason than to keep selfish people from abusing the good nature of the rest of us.

Except Affinity Range doesn't do squat. People still run off and do their own thing anyways, as you've observed. As you put it, those selfish people run off and abuse the good nature of those that stick together, and they do this regardless of the limited Affinity Range. It seems to me that the only one that cares about this range in these examples is you, so you're the one being punished while the players that run off alone aren't. A player that runs off takes away shared Affinity, spreads out drops, and thins out spawns, and you're the one who has to suffer from this.

But these are only issues because of the limited range. If Railjack's shared drops and unlimited Affinity Range were expanded to the rest of the game then a player that runs off wouldn't take away shared Affinity because you'd get their Affinity from anywhere, wouldn't spread out drops because you'd get what they pick up too, and the spawns wouldn't matter because you'd still benefit from them being killed anywhere in the map. This would no longer be harmful behaviour, and would actually benefit you because a player roaming around breaking boxes means you get more stuff too.

So help me understand why your solution to this problem is to cling to the existing system that clearly don't work?

 

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10 hours ago, Drachnyn said:

Making all pickups shared would balance out that last situation. And currently leeching is not only not stopped by game mechanics, it is encouraged. The way the affinity sharing works makes it insanely more convenient to let someone else do leveling for you than to level your weapons yourself.

Many missions are not really coop but instead up to 4 people soloing the mission independently, plains bounties are a fitting example for that. I've been in both situations: either I snipe away every drop ship as it spawns or I dont get to interact with any enemies the entire stage. Plains bounties are not designed to have multiple people participate. IMO leeching is only a symptom of bad mission design. I do however trust you to not just report based on mission end stats. In many short missions it becomes indistinguishable if someone is just slow or actively choosing not to contribute. Obviously if you make reports without being able to back anything up you dont deserve to have your reports taken seriously.

Your points reinforce my believe that it's good that you have to go out of your way to report someone for leeching and cant just click their name and instantly send an automated report.

Host migrations not functioning properly isnt something new and is an issue that needs to be adressed but that's a seperate issue, I am not sure why you are brining up that point.

I can understand pickup shares with open worlds and railjack due to size, but the default star chart missions are condense even for survival, excavation, and so on. The problem with removing the affinity range is that you basically let the leech, for most missions compare to now, afk at the spawn. With what's current they at least have to stay within range.

Why go into a mission that will naturally have others splitting up when your main objective is leveling? You get this "whatever your goal is there's a possibility it's better to go to this location instead". I have a suspicion that either DE purposely did this to spread us to different nodes or the mission-concept was designed first without the constraint of considering affinity range.

The host migration was their as an example of the ambiguity when making a report with what you have. Looking back at at some of evidence I collected for reports some look like it didn't have enough even though from playing the mission the experience told me enough.

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vor 13 Minuten schrieb NekroArts:

I can understand pickup shares with open worlds and railjack due to size, but the default star chart missions are condense even for survival, excavation, and so on. The problem with removing the affinity range is that you basically let the leech, for most missions compare to now, afk at the spawn. With what's current they at least have to stay within range.

Why go into a mission that will naturally have others splitting up when your main objective is leveling? You get this "whatever your goal is there's a possibility it's better to go to this location instead". I have a suspicion that either DE purposely did this to spread us to different nodes or the mission-concept was designed first without the constraint of considering affinity range.

The host migration was their as an example of the ambiguity when making a report with what you have. Looking back at at some of evidence I collected for reports some look like it didn't have enough even though from playing the mission the experience told me enough.

Depending on which excavators spawn you can absolutely be outside of affinity range with two excavators running with two people on each excavator and everyone playing normally. On some maps even within the same room. If someone afks at spawn that makes it so much easier to recognize and report so that sounds like an upside to me.

My main objective isnt leveling but that doesnt mean it should not even be able to be a side objective. Hydron, ESO and Adaro are all nice for leveling but if those are your only options that gets boring so much quicker than if I could just level while playing the game normally. Part of this issue is that warframe kills only give you affinity for your frame, but when someone else kills with their frame you get it spread out with most of the affinity going to your weapons. If I could affinity spread out from my own frame kills I would never have to pretend to contribute to an ESO party by playing trinity or something.

Maybe you just judged some situations incorrectly with a gut feeling. That can happen to everyone, confirmation bias is powerful.

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