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Give Garuda "Ignore incoming healing" augment


RV3n0m
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As in the title.

Unwanted healing disables Garuda's passive. This effectively halves her damage in lower level missions and quarters it in higher levels (because passive applies twice to bleeding from ult). It also makes Health Conversion much harder to keep up (since one gas/toxin proc is enough to just deplete it).

Let us mod it away with augment.

It doesn't really matter how it's implemented, it could do any of the following as secondary effect:
- buff passive ability by x% (so for example you do triple damage at low health)
- convert healing into energy directly (less than Bloodletting, but passively)
- simulate any mod commonly used by Garuda (like Ironclad Flight copying Aviator on Titania), I think Natural Talent would fit perfectly
- grant some direct stats (+x armor)
... or anything else, just let me stop having to dodge Wisp Reservoirs in every second mission.

To clarify, by incoming healing I mean all sources of healing that Garuda has no control over (so from teammates, Ancient Healers and Disruption lifesteal buff, but not from health orbs, equipped lifesteal mods, abilities, pets and gear items).

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What if Bloodletting had a "held" function that disabled incoming healing, so the player could toggle it on or off as necessary? I'd think the player being able to pick and choose when to heal is better, especially since it means you can still throw down Blood Altar for allies without having to dodge it yourself. Plus it's just easier to design, what with not having to pick what healing is or isn't allowed with an augment.

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4 hours ago, Lutesque said:

I was wondering when I would see this specific Topic....

Took quite a while... I expected it sooner....

I think the initial threads were around for a bit, where healing effectively reduced her damage output... except they were easily shut down by the argument; You aren't reducing Garuda's damage by healing, you're just getting normal damage, if being at full health gave you negative damage against enemies, that would be different.

But I think that people are now becoming aware that Garuda's Passive is similar to Rhino's Roar in that it's a non-specific Faction Damage multiplier. Which, as more savvy modders have picked up on (after the recent modding updates for guns) is a more applicable and now more mainstream way of applying damage at higher levels.

All of the build-crafters are using the innate elemental damage from weapons (like Nemesis ones, or older ones that have innate single elements) to allow for single-element mods to be more flexible in a build, and are even finding that using the Arcanes and Galvanised mods gives you way more damage to everything )except those specific boss fights) than slapping on Serration ever would, so they generically have that extra slot to fill, meaning they'll put on an Faction Bane mod.

For builds that don't have that bonus element on the gun, however, this often means that Faction damage mods can't be fitted unless you sacrifice something else. So having a frame like Garuda, who not only has the Bleeds from her 4, but innate Faction Damage boosting? That's a way to achieve the same effect.

So you can see how the newer knowledge of the damage system in action can be taken into account for these kind of threads...

But...

Yeah, the same argument stands. You aren't 'reducing Garuda's damage' as you heal, you're just 'losing a buff' and 'returning to normal damage' if you heal. You still get full damage, you just don't get bonus damage.

And since pressing 3 at any time will give you access to her Passive, and doing it again will give you more of her Passive, even having constant heals from a Trinity is just a way to give you infinite energy while you shoot damage-buffed shots for a few seconds.

I personally run with Gloom instead of Blood Altar, not only for the high amount of Slow, but I can also use the Augment for Seeking Talons and instantly cause everything around me in range of Gloom to begin life-stealing while I press 3 to maintain the damage buffs, which gives me energy to maintain Gloom, which gives me health back to cast 3 again... Endless cycle of Energy, Healing, Damage buffing and Bleeds.

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20 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I think the initial threads were around for a bit, where healing effectively reduced her damage output... except they were easily shut down by the argument; You aren't reducing Garuda's damage by healing, you're just getting normal damage, if being at full health gave you negative damage against enemies, that would be different.

Wow.... That's awfully condescending 😳 !!!

I think I missed out in those Threads because I joined Warframe the Week after Fortuna's big release and didn't visit the Forums until months afterwards....

That's a very very long time to suffer through this issue for Garuda mains 😭 !!

26 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

So you can see how the newer knowledge of the damage system in action can be taken into account for these kind of threads...

Not without playing the game I can't 😳... What exactly have You Tenno but fighting against in my Absence ? Did the Sentients get buff or something ?

28 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

 

Yeah, the same argument stands. You aren't 'reducing Garuda's damage' as you heal, you're just 'losing a buff' and 'returning to normal damage' if you heal. You still get full damage, you just don't get bonus damage.

Aaaah... But you can counter that Argument by saying that you custom modded your Load Out based around her passive hence you are infact getting less Damage... Just like Chroma would be since he has built in Serration unless Hildryn, Protea or Harrow @#&$ block him  from activating Fury 😁 !!!

Still though... If I was a Garuda main I don't think I would be making that argument simply because I would be fuming at that somebody having the nerve to say that to me... 😭

 

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51 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I think the initial threads were around for a bit, where healing effectively reduced her damage output... except they were easily shut down by the argument; You aren't reducing Garuda's damage by healing, you're just getting normal damage, if being at full health gave you negative damage against enemies, that would be different.

This argument holds no water because there are several frames that buff their damage and yet they cannot lose their buffs due to teammate actions. How is Garuda different? Because it's passive? Zephyr also has damage boosting passive that can't be disabled by teammates.
 

52 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

But I think that people are now becoming aware that Garuda's Passive is similar to Rhino's Roar in that it's a non-specific Faction Damage multiplier. Which, as more savvy modders have picked up on (after the recent modding updates for guns) is a more applicable and now more mainstream way of applying damage at higher levels.

<snip>

For builds that don't have that bonus element on the gun, however, this often means that Faction damage mods can't be fitted unless you sacrifice something else. So having a frame like Garuda, who not only has the Bleeds from her 4, but innate Faction Damage boosting? That's a way to achieve the same effect.

Except Garuda's passive is completely separate multiplier which is multiplicative with faction damage.
 

55 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

So you can see how the newer knowledge of the damage system in action can be taken into account for these kind of threads...

This has nothing to do with it, I've posed this suggestion because I've been constantly annoyed by random healing sources lately. And I'd post this thread sooner, but I was on hiatus from the game. I even had photoshopped mod card to go along with it, with captura and everything :/
 

59 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Yeah, the same argument stands. You aren't 'reducing Garuda's damage' as you heal, you're just 'losing a buff' and 'returning to normal damage' if you heal. You still get full damage, you just don't get bonus damage.

Again, this is only frame that can have its damage buffs sabotaged by teammates.
 

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

And since pressing 3 at any time will give you access to her Passive, and doing it again will give you more of her Passive, even having constant heals from a Trinity is just a way to give you infinite energy while you shoot damage-buffed shots for a few seconds.

Basically any heal will shoot you up to full hp which requires two casts of Bloodletting. This changes to 'every single heal' if you're running Bleeding Dragon Key (which is pretty good on Garuda by the way). Having to spam 3 every few seconds because teammate heals other players with Blessings isn't fun.

I also don't need infinite energy nor tankiness, I can manage my energy and defensive cooldowns on my own. If I wanted to bunker down, I could use Blood Altar.
 

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I personally run with Gloom instead of Blood Altar, not only for the high amount of Slow, but I can also use the Augment for Seeking Talons and instantly cause everything around me in range of Gloom to begin life-stealing while I press 3 to maintain the damage buffs, which gives me energy to maintain Gloom, which gives me health back to cast 3 again... Endless cycle of Energy, Healing, Damage buffing and Bleeds.

I'm happy this works for you, but I'd like to use my on-the-edge 2hp build. I'm only asking that I'm allowed to use my build in public games without it being disabled by teammates.

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8 hours ago, RV3n0m said:

Again, this is only frame that can have its damage buffs sabotaged by teammates.

Harrow would like a word. And Nidus, even now, only gains a third of his stacks if team members kill things before he can set up.

8 hours ago, RV3n0m said:

I'm only asking that I'm allowed to use my build in public games without it being disabled by teammates.

And that, my friend, is not just a problem for Garuda.

There are plenty of frames and builds that, by virtue of just joining others, cannot make the most of their base kit or a particular build. Making use of a good melee build is difficult if another person also decides to use one near you, taking as many or more of the kills so you can't ramp up or maintain. Making use of a Rage mechanic build for Oberon is difficult if there's a Limbo around preventing you from even taking that damage. It's difficult to set up the Bastille armour-strip and scaling damage combo if there's a Mesa on your team killing enemies 50m out from it. And, as I pointed out, there's literally Harrow that cannot provide healing or energy or even take the damage to provide his Critical buff if allies are just killing faster, or Nidus who cannot gain Stacks with even a modicum of efficiency if allies are killing faster than he can cast.

Now let me be clear:

My point isn't that your idea is bad, or that you shouldn't get what you want.

My point is that there are plenty of builds and tactics for Warframes that do not play well with others, and that you should literally expect this to happen and consider modifying the play style when going public to account for it.

Now, here's another point: DE have been very clear on the topic of being able to turn off effects from other players.

Let me use the example of a debate that went on, and a few months of updates that DE attempted and pitched ideas for that landed us right back where we started; Volt's Speed.

Volt's Speed is a buff. It applies radially and affects other players. The debate was that, for a surprising amount of players, this is a definitely unwanted buff. The change in speed messes up muscle memory, the constant spam of it requires many players to turn off their screen-distorting effects (if they know where to do that), and before the Melee 3.0 update it completely removed many players ability to perform melee combos. Now the simple point that DE stuck to is that, despite all of these, Speed is a Buff and they want Buffs to apply to players by default. They would not consider any option to turn it off as default.

So what they tried was ways to make Speed an opt-in system, by making Volt drop pickups, but players just left those in narrow hallways which forced players to pick them up anyway, or they dropped them in inconvenient places where players that actually wanted the buff (which is still the majority) could not pick them up without back-tracking. And a Volt that cast often would often drop pickups too far ahead of the group for them to keep up and keep picking up the Buff, which resulted in nobody who wanted the buff able to keep it consistently.

DE then tried multiple forms of opt-out. And all of those again resulted in the fact that the majority of players, who wanted the buff, kept losing it. So the end result was that DE reverted to what was 'the lesser of all evils' in the case; the backflip opt-out. It's not ideal, it's not the preferred method of anybody in the game, and all the old issues with spamming the ability remain.

So, all of this long ramble to say...

Healing is a Buff. DE want Buffs to be on by default, and are unlikely to implement a function for you that allows you to turn them off.

This ties in to the earlier point that, when Solo you get to do what you want. In a public setting, other players will bring any number of tactics to the table, and they may ruin your tactic or build, because DE wants the effects of other players to be on by default and that you should, at best, have an opt-out that can be used per ability use.

Now let me be clear: The difference here is that your method is an 'off by default', not an 'opt out'. By pressing the button you negate the entire cast's effect on you and make it impossible for the other player to apply their Buff/Healing to you in the first place. By having an 'opt out' it would be that, if somebody pressed the Heal button, you would then press the button to reject it.

This, funnily enough, is something you already have. With any heal, you can press 3 and buff yourself again, while also gaining Energy, which is also a self-buff.

You may spend a few seconds at not-fully-ramped-up Buff, but the process literally buffs you in other ways.

tl;dr

That's why I think you're not going to get what you want.

I don't think that you shouldn't get it. Your feedback is legitimate.

And one last thing:

10 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Wow.... That's awfully condescending 😳 !!!

I wasn't being condescending, sorry if it came across that way.

The discussions we've had in the past led me to think you've been in game longer than this account says you have.

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1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I wasn't being condescending, sorry if it came across that way.

LoL... I didn't mean you... I meant the people who said those things sounded Condescending...

You know... I blame English.... Cintrian is a better language for texting 😝.

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

The discussions we've had in the past led me to think you've been in game longer than this account says you have.

I don't even know where I can see my game time.... But even if I could would it be accurate ? DE is note known for accurately tracking these sorts of things...

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1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

I don't even know where I can see my game time....

You are automatically registered to the Forums when you make your game profile, so your Forum Account is the same as your Game account (in theory). The discrepancy comes from when you have multiple accounts, so some people are older, in game, than the current account they're commenting from.

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3 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

You are automatically registered to the Forums when you make your game profile, so your Forum Account is the same as your Game account (in theory). The discrepancy comes from when you have multiple accounts, so some people are older, in game, than the current account they're commenting from.

Yep... That's definitely me... I have two MR20+ Accounts.... I started the 2nd one after the first season of Nightwave....

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4 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Harrow would like a word. And Nidus, even now, only gains a third of his stacks if team members kill things before he can set up.

By "buff own damage" I've meant buffs applying to weapons used by frame (so ignoring other warframe abilities, which warframes can buff their guns/swords). It wasn't at all clear and for that I apologize. As for Harrow, Penance works perfectly well no matter what teammates do. Covenant, on the other hand, is severely punished by teammate actions, you're right.
 

4 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

My point is that there are plenty of builds and tactics for Warframes that do not play well with others, and that you should literally expect this to happen and consider modifying the play style when going public to account for it.

Unfortunately, modifying my playstyle here means picking Zephyr instead.

Generally, in lower level missions Garuda has two things going for her:
a) double damage,
b) mobility from Dread Mirror
They're both also provided by Zephyr, except with less restrictions.

Dread Mirror provides front facing shield (mostly obsoleted by automatic blocking and besides it's worse than Turbulence) and charged nuke. That nuke by itself isn't bad, but it's much slower than relevant AoE weapons and can be dispelled.  It also has bad damage typing.

Blood Altar provides tiny bit of CC and healing. CCing one enemy isn't particularly impressive, and healing part is really clunky on low health build (because you want short burst of healing to refill energy, and it's really easy to miss 'release' part and hit another enemy).

Bloodletting is great, but it only regenerates energy. There's a limit to how much energy one frame needs.

Seeking Talons is really powerful, but very slow. It only becomes useful at very low levels (because initial slash is enough to kill through walls) and very high levels (when your guns start to fall off).

Problem is that Garuda's weak range consists of majority of missions in game.
 

6 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Now, here's another point: DE have been very clear on the topic of being able to turn off effects from other players.

Let me use the example of a debate that went on, and a few months of updates that DE attempted and pitched ideas for that landed us right back where we started; Volt's Speed.

Volt's Speed is a buff. It applies radially and affects other players. The debate was that, for a surprising amount of players, this is a definitely unwanted buff. The change in speed messes up muscle memory, the constant spam of it requires many players to turn off their screen-distorting effects (if they know where to do that), and before the Melee 3.0 update it completely removed many players ability to perform melee combos. Now the simple point that DE stuck to is that, despite all of these, Speed is a Buff and they want Buffs to apply to players by default. They would not consider any option to turn it off as default.

So what they tried was ways to make Speed an opt-in system, by making Volt drop pickups, but players just left those in narrow hallways which forced players to pick them up anyway, or they dropped them in inconvenient places where players that actually wanted the buff (which is still the majority) could not pick them up without back-tracking. And a Volt that cast often would often drop pickups too far ahead of the group for them to keep up and keep picking up the Buff, which resulted in nobody who wanted the buff able to keep it consistently.

DE then tried multiple forms of opt-out. And all of those again resulted in the fact that the majority of players, who wanted the buff, kept losing it. So the end result was that DE reverted to what was 'the lesser of all evils' in the case; the backflip opt-out. It's not ideal, it's not the preferred method of anybody in the game, and all the old issues with spamming the ability remain.

So, all of this long ramble to say...

Healing is a Buff. DE want Buffs to be on by default, and are unlikely to implement a function for you that allows you to turn them off.

All right, valid observation. Then let me propose some other alternatives that effectively accomplish the same but in more reactive way:

After casting Bloodletting, convert incoming healing into energy at 12.5%/25%/37.5%/50% efficiency for 4/8/12/16 seconds.
Basically gives you passive, weaker Bloodletting for some time. As a bonus it'd be also neat for the lazy, since your own healing also could be converted.

Hold Bloodletting hotkey to consume all health and enter enraged state, increasing all damage dealt by 25%.  Garuda cannot be healed while enraged. Instead, incoming healing boosts damage buff additively by 5% per 1000 health, subject to diminishing results. Cancel enraged state by pressing Bloodletting hotkey again. Boosted damage is reset when leaving enraged state.
Would increase risk/reward aspect of low health build while also adding additional incentive to pick Garuda.

Of course numbers are just an example, but both of these examples would benefit Garuda even without healers, while also making healing frames useful.
 

6 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

This, funnily enough, is something you already have. With any heal, you can press 3 and buff yourself again, while also gaining Energy, which is also a self-buff.

You may spend a few seconds at not-fully-ramped-up Buff, but the process literally buffs you in other ways.

Honestly, problem lies in hard-to-avoid, continuous abilities like Renewal and Vitality Reservoir. If one of these tags you, you're not going to benefit from your passive anymore until you find a cliff to throw yourself off. With Bleeding Dragon Key, even 100% Ability Strength Oberon will outheal Bloodletting (literally. You can't reduce your health to 0 without Natural Talent).

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32 minutes ago, RV3n0m said:

Then let me propose some other alternatives that effectively accomplish the same but in more reactive way:

See, now you're getting it ^^

Always plan your feedback around positive change, rather than 'I want to stop other people doing this'.

And yes, that sounds like a good base. An augment that, instead of preventing Healing, converts it.

But how about this; An augment that converts 'Health Gained' into 'Bonus Damage'?

What this does is reward you for going low, but then additionally reward you for going back up.

The Passive activates when you're under full health, and you have Bloodletting to trigger it, but deactivates the second you're healed. So augmented, for a given Duration after the cast of Bloodletting, all health gained (up to your max) converts into a percent damage boost for another X Duration. The buff ends when you recast Bloodletting, meaning you have to charge it up again, but in compensation you get the Passive activation.

So from a single cast, you're then at 50% Passive, and you can heal up for a duration of 50% Buff.

What this achieves is that it plays into both solo and team use in a positive way. Having a Trinity healing you instantly, for example (as well as the 75% damage reduction) means that you can drop down and back up again for Energy gain and the Damage Buff without the risk of being low Health.

What do you think?

That said:

46 minutes ago, RV3n0m said:

Unfortunately, modifying my playstyle here means picking Zephyr instead.

As the six year Zephyr player in the conversation, I had to tilt my head in mild confusion at this...

Because Zephyr's tactics are incredibly different from Garuda's. Especially with the fact that Garuda's 4-1 Combo is a far greater nuke than even Zephyr's Passive-4 combo, since the 1's damage scales directly from enemy damage, which is scaled to enemy level, and a second's charge will make it double that damage taken...

That combo alone is basically a higher-effort version of Mallet, where you're affecting the enemies with a Debuff for Bleed, then letting their own damage feed that next instance of it.

As a weapon booster, the quick augmented radial cast of Seeking Talons and the slower, whole-screen charged version are easily more flexible than Tornado, and while you need an enemy to target for Garuda's 1, you never end up stuck in a corner that's too awkwardly angled for wall-latching to get rid of your momentum.

From your troubles, I think the only thing you'd need to do (tactic wise) is allow more time in your public missions to cast your 4 for your team, with enough Strength to guarantee those bleeds on all damage. Your damage doesn't need to be buffed to buff your team with one of the best non-linear damage boosts in the game.

You might not benefit from getting those heals as much, but the other people on your team benefit from you being there and fully healed, dishing out the regular damage you deal, and dropping radial healing on demand. 

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1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

But how about this; An augment that converts 'Health Gained' into 'Bonus Damage'?

What this does is reward you for going low, but then additionally reward you for going back up.

The Passive activates when you're under full health, and you have Bloodletting to trigger it, but deactivates the second you're healed. So augmented, for a given Duration after the cast of Bloodletting, all health gained (up to your max) converts into a percent damage boost for another X Duration. The buff ends when you recast Bloodletting, meaning you have to charge it up again, but in compensation you get the Passive activation.

So from a single cast, you're then at 50% Passive, and you can heal up for a duration of 50% Buff.

What this achieves is that it plays into both solo and team use in a positive way. Having a Trinity healing you instantly, for example (as well as the 75% damage reduction) means that you can drop down and back up again for Energy gain and the Damage Buff without the risk of being low Health.

What do you think?

If I understand you correctly, the main problem (continuous abilities) is still present in your suggestion. If I'm affected by Renewal and regenerate 40 hp per second, I'm unable to reach 2hp to fully benefit, so most I can reach is 50% buff.

Of course, the augment could also deplete health in one cast, let me hold it while accelerating drain or have grace period where you can't heal if you queue another Bloodletting.

Another 'problem' I see with that suggestion is also that outside being unaffected by healing, I gain essentially nothing. That makes it a bandaid augment.

Now if it granted me some bonus, I'd have no issue with it. For example, if buff for being healed was stronger (for example 133% total), I'd have incentive to stick to healer or purposefully chase health orbs. Or if it had passive Natural Talent embedded, that'd also be pretty cool.

I suppose total depletion in one cast would be some benefit, but it still doesn't really feel good to sacrifice mod slot for.

As for having full health, it doesn't really do much to my survivability because I have 75 health maximum anyway (so it's only 5.5% of my ehp not counting shield). I could remove Bleeding Dragon Key but it is quite important here because Bloodletting scales with % health. That means one health orb gives me around 60% of max energy, easing sustain.
 

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

That said:

As the six year Zephyr player in the conversation, I had to tilt my head in mild confusion at this...

Because Zephyr's tactics are incredibly different from Garuda's. Especially with the fact that Garuda's 4-1 Combo is a far greater nuke than even Zephyr's Passive-4 combo, since the 1's damage scales directly from enemy damage, which is scaled to enemy level, and a second's charge will make it double that damage taken...

That combo alone is basically a higher-effort version of Mallet, where you're affecting the enemies with a Debuff for Bleed, then letting their own damage feed that next instance of it.

As a weapon booster, the quick augmented radial cast of Seeking Talons and the slower, whole-screen charged version are easily more flexible than Tornado, and while you need an enemy to target for Garuda's 1, you never end up stuck in a corner that's too awkwardly angled for wall-latching to get rid of your momentum.

From your troubles, I think the only thing you'd need to do (tactic wise) is allow more time in your public missions to cast your 4 for your team, with enough Strength to guarantee those bleeds on all damage. Your damage doesn't need to be buffed to buff your team with one of the best non-linear damage boosts in the game.

You might not benefit from getting those heals as much, but the other people on your team benefit from you being there and fully healed, dishing out the regular damage you deal, and dropping radial healing on demand. 

By "take Zephyr instead" I've meant that for my one exact strategy in lower level missions I could substitute Garuda with Zephyr entirely and benefit. "Unfortunately", because I wanted to use Garuda but she's pretty much worse at this.

Additive 150% crit chance from passive grants me bonus 85% crit chance on my Zaw. That means I'm going from 102% to 187%, essentially granting my Exodia Contagion 83% more damage.

So for my purposes Zephyr trades off ~9% total damage for consistency and better shield. Zephyr also has more shiny bits to paint blue.

I am aware on higher levels both frames play completely differently, Garuda is my second most used frame. At lower levels (so anything below some time into Grineer Steel Path) there's no reason to cast neither ult because everything dies in one or two hits anyway.

Edited by RV3n0m
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2 hours ago, RV3n0m said:

If I understand you correctly, the main problem (continuous abilities) is still present in your suggestion. If I'm affected by Renewal and regenerate 40 hp per second, I'm unable to reach 2hp to fully benefit, so most I can reach is 50% buff.

Well, yes, it is. The difference being that you'd then be benefiting from the healing, even if not for the potential full amount and you're still buffing the team when you're public.

The consideration here is that Garuda currently has calculations built in that increase her damage based on Health points lost, the same equation can be used for Health points gained, and it would be a really, really simple way to apply that. The suggestion you had would be a new function DE would have to add that could introduce bugs as healing abilities get updated over the game.

Here's a trick though, which might make it worth actually going with a healing team; the amount converted from being healed is instead based on Duration, not on Percentage, with a functional cap of 100% to match her Passive.

Why would this help? Because after casting, Garuda's own ability heals faster for when you're low on Health than it does for high health, so repeated casts of Blood Letting would allow you to get the total buff faster. And in teams with over-active healers, you can reliably recast Bloodletting to actually make use of the fast healing for capping out.

This way you would more actively benefit from the team health buffs while being able to operate at full health for the survivability. Heck, with Wisp's mote adding Health to you as well, this means that you could reliably hit the 100% whether you hit max health or not.

Would that work?

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1 hour ago, (PSN)SHINOBISERPENT said:

Coordinate with your team. Or just play solo.that's the solution to your problem. Warframe is a coop game. So coop erate.

 

Ah, great! Argumentum ad cooperante. I started to think no one would remind me of this.

I happen to still enjoy playing in public squads, but apparently, because I'm asking for an option to convert healing into something that doesn't invalidate my playstyle it means I should shut up and stick to solo with much lower target density. Thanks for the advice.

And to get back into topic - sorry it took so long, busy week.
 

On 2021-09-05 at 11:50 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Well, yes, it is. The difference being that you'd then be benefiting from the healing, even if not for the potential full amount and you're still buffing the team when you're public.

The healing is seriously underwhelming benefit. Amount gained is capped at my pitiful maximum health, and since I'm spamming Bloodletting trying to reach 2 health, I'm far overcapped on energy about one second into the buff.
 

On 2021-09-05 at 11:50 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

The consideration here is that Garuda currently has calculations built in that increase her damage based on Health points lost, the same equation can be used for Health points gained, and it would be a really, really simple way to apply that. The suggestion you had would be a new function DE would have to add that could introduce bugs as healing abilities get updated over the game.

I'm not sure which of my suggestions do you mean.
If it's to increase amount drained - trivial change.
If it's implementing held drain - much more complicated in comparison, but still not hard. All it'd take would be copying functionality of Inaros 4, just with drain increasing over time. Most resource intensive part would be altering animation to fit in, I assume.
If it's freezing health for one second it takes to cast second Bloodletting - it'd require detecting second ability cast attempt and making health unable to go above set threshold. After having more thought, it's also least elegant solution.
 

On 2021-09-05 at 11:50 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Here's a trick though, which might make it worth actually going with a healing team; the amount converted from being healed is instead based on Duration, not on Percentage, with a functional cap of 100% to match her Passive.

I'm not sure what do you mean by being based on Duration. I'll assume it means that after casting Bloodletting, incoming healing will grant damage based on amount of health that could be restored, if maximum health wasn't already full.

 

On 2021-09-05 at 11:50 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Why would this help? Because after casting, Garuda's own ability heals faster for when you're low on Health than it does for high health, so repeated casts of Blood Letting would allow you to get the total buff faster. And in teams with over-active healers, you can reliably recast Bloodletting to actually make use of the fast healing for capping out.

This way you would more actively benefit from the team health buffs while being able to operate at full health for the survivability. Heck, with Wisp's mote adding Health to you as well, this means that you could reliably hit the 100% whether you hit max health or not.

Yeah, I think I get it. I also think we're on different wavelengths here.

You propose that Garuda could benefit from passive at full health. That'd be an augment directed at tank playstyle - letting you build for bulk, but still having increased damage. Not that it's bad thing, or wrong build - if someone enjoys this playstyle, then more power to them.

But I'd prefer to keep playing barely alive. It's pretty unique aspect of 'zombie' build - and as far as I'm aware there's no other build on any other frame that purposefully runs at effectively zero health.

Sure, there are other Quick Thinking builds, but most of them try to restore their health as soon as possible or use it as safeguard when trying to restore energy with Rage.

Running at 2hp is interesting to me because it's different.

To end, I believe the best balance between simplicity, ease of implementation and utility would be Bloodletting granting passive effect converting health to energy at reduced effectiveness for some time after cast.

It'd remove the problem with healing outlined in OP, it'd vastly increase utility of Blood Altars (since they'd become energy beacons, encouraging Garuda players to place them whenever possible in effect also benefiting the team), it'd smooth out 'rotation' letting us focus on using other abilities (since we'd no longer need to spam 3 every few seconds).

The only problem I can foresee is deciding on how much effectiveness it would have. 50% at max could be excessive.

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1 hour ago, RV3n0m said:

You propose that Garuda could benefit from passive at full health. That'd be an augment directed at tank playstyle - letting you build for bulk, but still having increased damage. Not that it's bad thing, or wrong build - if someone enjoys this playstyle, then more power to them.

But I'd prefer to keep playing barely alive.

Ah, see, we definitely are on different wavelengths.

The whole process I was leading you down is that, because DE won't go for a 'just block this thing I don't want', especially when it removes something as important to them as Healing, the idea is to get what you want from a change of method.

What you said you wanted: To not lose her Passive due to Healing.

What I gave you: an Augment that can grant you the exact equivalent of her Passive by getting Healed (by yourself or others) with a specific bias for those times when you have constant healing over time, preventing you from going low on Health.

If you're going to change the goal on me here with a new caveat; 'I like playing at minimum Health', then that's something I can't suggest a fix for.

So, glad we had the discussion, but I guess that's all I can say on it. Catch you next time ^^

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8 hours ago, RV3n0m said:

Ah, great! Argumentum ad cooperante. I started to think no one would remind me of this.

I happen to still enjoy playing in public squads, but apparently, because I'm asking for an option to convert healing into something that doesn't invalidate my playstyle it means I should shut up and stick to solo with much lower target density. Thanks for the advice.

Am I wrong? AM. I. WRONG?

I said coordinate "OR" play solo. Just because your ONE specific playstyle for one frame doesn't work out when people don't know what's happening to their squadmate doesn't mean that there should be some extra system put into place to help yall not use yall's brains. Garuda needs a rework. don't get me wrong. But just tell you squad mate to stop healing you please. 

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