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My theory to why the existence of Nidus Prime actually does make sense. (Spoiler alert from the Glast Gambit quest and the Old War!)


(PSN)Frostelus
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We all know that only Tenno equippments can have Primes exclusively, which leads to a lot of people coming to the conclusion that Nidus Prime shouldn't even exist because he's Infested. That is partially true however.

First of all, Infested weapons can never get Primed. That much is true because those were never created by the Orokin. While the actual virus itself was originaly created by the Orokin as a bio-weapon, but backfired, the weapons however were naturaly born from the constant mutations and was never intended to exist by the Orokin.

In the case of Nidus Prime however, he was not created by the Infestation through natural mutation like the weapons did. He was designed by the Orokin to have Infested powers on purpose. He was meant to have those powers and was still made by the Orokin, which is why the Prime exist.
This is further proven from the Glast Gambit quest, where Ergo Glast confirmed that the Nidus blueprint is an Old War relic, meaning the blueprint was from the time when the Warframes were developed, which was during the Old War. The Orokin was on the verge of losing the war against the Sentients, because the Necramechs weren't enough. This led to the development of the Warframes, the successor to the Necramechs and that includes Nidus Prime; A Warframe with the power of the Infestation.

Some will argue that Nidus should've been Umbra instead, but as I've named the point that Nidus Prime can actually exist, there's no need to have an Umbra replace the Prime. Nidus Umbra is still possible however. In fact, any Warframe could potentially have an Umbra variant, but not in the very near future, as DE has confirmed.

There's also been talks about how Hema and Hirudo should've been Primed alongside Nidus, but the most logical explanation woudl simply be that they're purely infested, unlike Nidus, which was artificially created by the Orokin. Also, while those two weapons have been shown to be used by Nidus a lot, there are no indication that they're his signature weapons however. Not to mention DE already wanted to make older weapons Primed, and not all Prime Warframes came alongside signature weapons after all.

These are my theories to why Nidus Prime does fit with the lore. All are based of the current lores we got. It's very likely DE may give us an explanation once Nidus Prime gets released on Sep 8th, but until then, I think this is the most logical explanation that makes the most sense.

Edited by (PSN)Frostelus
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I mean yeah that's pretty much it.

Unfortunately it's one of those things where it's rooted on the community so no matter what proof you bring they're gonna deny it, Nidus being primed not that rooted as other things cause sacrifice exists thankfully.

Edited by (XBOX)C11H22O11
Grammar
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There are two main theories:

1) Because if how jumbled the dialogue in Silver Grove.and Sacrifice is, it's possible (and I personally subscribe to this theory) that the Primes actually came LAST, and that Excal Umbra and Nidus Not-Prime were actually the very first Warframes ever. Under this theory, the Umbras were developed as an experiment but thrown out for being uncontrollable (all of Orokin society is built on the tenant "obey the upper class"), then the Z-kids awoke and learned how to control the Umbras. Then, researchers like Silvana were hired to build concept models -- the Not-Primes. These were cheap and dirty, no gold and ivory, but they were both effective on the battlefield and easier for later generations to replicate. Last came the Primes, upgraded versions that the Orokin Elite would cover in gold and ivory to assert their dominance. 

2) This assumes theory 1 is wrong. Primed things with Helminth or Infested lineage, will slowly lose its Prime status with enough generations. We see this with the Deimos fish. Prime fish like the Myxostomata or the Duroid are original Prime fish. Allow them to breed, and interbreed, and the generations down the line turn into non-Prime fish like the Cryptosuctus and the Kymaeros. I have no idea how this would work with the Warframes, I mean I'm going to assume that Nidus Prime wasn't trying to bump uglies with Saryn Prime, but it is the nature of living organisms -- like Helminth -- to try and reproduce somehow

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On 2021-09-03 at 10:31 PM, TARINunit9 said:

There are two main theories:

1) Because if how jumbled the dialogue in Silver Grove.and Sacrifice is, it's possible (and I personally subscribe to this theory) that the Primes actually came LAST, and that Excal Umbra and Nidus Not-Prime were actually the very first Warframes ever. Under this theory, the Umbras were developed as an experiment but thrown out for being uncontrollable (all of Orokin society is built on the tenant "obey the upper class"), then the Z-kids awoke and learned how to control the Umbras. Then, researchers like Silvana were hired to build concept models -- the Not-Primes. These were cheap and dirty, no gold and ivory, but they were both effective on the battlefield and easier for later generations to replicate. Last came the Primes, upgraded versions that the Orokin Elite would cover in gold and ivory to assert their dominance. 

2) This assumes theory 1 is wrong. Primed things with Helminth or Infested lineage, will slowly lose its Prime status with enough generations. We see this with the Deimos fish. Prime fish like the Myxostomata or the Duroid are original Prime fish. Allow them to breed, and interbreed, and the generations down the line turn into non-Prime fish like the Cryptosuctus and the Kymaeros. I have no idea how this would work with the Warframes, I mean I'm going to assume that Nidus Prime wasn't trying to bump uglies with Saryn Prime, but it is the nature of living organisms -- like Helminth -- to try and reproduce somehow

I've heard about this first theory and I find it a very interesting approach overall. But there are couple of hiccups I found that doesn't really fit in with this lore, so please correct me if I'm wrong here.

Excalibur Umbra couldn't have been the first, because he was created when the Dax Warrior found out about Ballas's plans to betray the Orokin and defect to the side of the Sentients. The betrayal took place not long after Margulis's death, however it has been shown that Margulis was still alive at least during the development of the very first Warframes. She took part in teaching the Tenno about transference, where they managed to control the first Warframes as those originally went berserk and like Ballas mentioned that the Tenno could "see inside an ugly, broken thing and take away its pain".
Margulis was also the one who recruited Silvana to help with transference therapy, which eventually led to the creation of the Titania Warframe.
Also through the Vitruvian, we could see that Ballas was talking to Hunhow about the development of the Warframes and the secrets of the Tenno, which must've been the evidence that the Dax Warrior found out about his betrayal.
This means that other Warframes must've already existed before Umbra was created, especially considering Ballas had an important role in the creation of the Warframes in general, particularly those from the Prime Trailers.
Not to mention that Excalibur Prime's codex entry confirms that he was the first, while Umbra's description says "From the shadow of the long night emerges a new Excalibur."

Regarding the fact that the first Warframes went berserk, I don't think that has to do with being Umbra in general. We've seen from the Second Dream quest that your own Warframe managed to mysteriously move on it's own as it tried to split the War blade stuck in it. So I believe that all Warframes have some sort of "concience" left in them, although the modern Frames are slightly weaker with it.
As for Excalibur Umbra, although his behavior is similar to the original Frames, his full conciousness remained still, unlike the first Warframes wich had their minds corrupted and became nothing more but mindless beasts. The reason for Umbra's berserk state was more because Ballas purposely made it so that he would be tormented by "a single burning memory" of having killed his son as a form of punishment.

DE already confirmed that the first and original Warframes were indeed the Primes and as for the regular variants, those are basically replicas created by the Tenno, due to the original blueprints of their Primes were originally lost to the Void at first, until they were found again.

Also in my opinion, I don't think the gold arnaments has anything to do with asserting dominance and could very well be just a natural occurence of anything made by the Orokin. It seems very unlikely that Ballas would take the time to paint Umbra gold after all.

The second theory however, I can see this being true for the Infestation overall at least, as the constant mutation will slowly rot away an sign of Orokin heritage. Nearly everything that lives on Deimos are succumbed to slowly mutate, due to them being constantly exposed to the virus.
For Warframes however, I don't think that's the case as stated earlier about them being replicas, though they still have a relation to the infested to some degree, as we've seen with some Infested bosses claiming they're "their flesh" and the Worm Queen calling them "infested puppets" as well as their connection to the helminth overall, but their type of infestation is not as severe enough to cause degradation or violent mutations

Edited by (PSN)Frostelus
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Considering how unstable the lore for Warframe is (since they seem to pivot away from ideas a lot, especially proven when one of the DEs on a newbie alt specifically mentioned that things that are now irrelevant were hyped up as being a lot more important than they ended up actually being if they're even still a thing) there's a number of things that could be "why", including the above-stated "primes last".

Also RE: prime coloring - the orokin are already confirmed to be hoity-toity ultra-sanitizing people who obsess over the "perfect image", which is also why primes are always at least far more decorated and "clean" than their non-prime counterparts. Even Nidus has some of that "sanitized cleanliness", but his mutation stacks show that he's still "filthy". 

I imagine when the Tenno recreated the blueprints for the non-primed variants, it can probably be assumed that a lot of the prime addon parts were seen as "unnecessary noise" or other things that just didn't seem like it was actually part of it, but part of something else. But this moreso explains why earlier Primes look so similar to their non-primes with the exception of a few extra pieces. (Like Excalibur Prime, Mag Prime, and Volt Prime)

Then when it comes to the primes that look a lot more different than their originals, it can probably be safely assumed that they tried their best to work with what they got and fill in the blanks, which is why regular Oberon and Oberon Prime look so different.

09YfoPy.pngtOOsXGR.png

As for Nidus, we got his blueprint and parts from someone else, so it's entirely possible that what we know about Nidus might be an assumption based on what we learned during his obtain quests/missions, with some of the gaps being filled in, ignored, or guesstimated. The same is also true for Mesa, since technically we got her parts thanks to Alad V.

I probably already said this, but I personally think that the Tenno-variant frames are mostly just a result of misinformation or misunderstanding what the blueprint entailed and just going with what seems to fit the most for what information they do have.

Yareli is probably going to be the hardest one to explain why a Prime exists, since art of Yareli is canon in-game, but it can probably still be explained by just going word of mouth/writing causing the appearance of Yareli to become on some level inaccurate from the original Prime.

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1 hour ago, (PSN)Frostelus said:

Excalibur Umbra couldn't have been the first, because he was created when the Dax Warrior found out about Ballas's plans to betray the Orokin and defect to the side of the Sentients. The betrayal took place not long after Margulis's death, however it has been shown that Margulis was still alive at least during the development of the very first Warframes. She took part in teaching the Tenno about transference, where they managed to control the first Warframes as those originally went berserk and like Ballas mentioned that the Tenno could "see inside an ugly, broken thing and take away its pain".

 

I've been in long debates about this in the past. And my stance on the matter is: the canon taken at face value does not make sense. No seriously, it does not make sense. Look at two plot points you mentioned:

1) Ballas betrays the Orokin because they executed Margulis

2) Margulis helped build Warframes with Silvana, in the Vitruvian Lab we find the recording of Ballas talking to Hunhow

Taken at face value this would mean that Ballas decided to betray the Orokin for killing Margulis before Margulis was actually dead.

There is a reason for this: the War Within and the Sacrifice we're both rewritten at least once. There was a leak of WW on Reddit once, where the Umbras were mentioned after your Z-kid eats the Broken Scepter Kuva

There are two possible ways to fix this, neither of which are popular among my debate partners. The first is to assume that the "Margulis" Silvana worked with was actually Natah. This would also explain why the Vitruvian Lab on Lua is full of Sentient Mimics despite being locked since the Old War: because Natah was in there building Warframes (we know Natah also helped guard the Zariman Reservoir against Erra). However my previous debate partners have rejected this as well, for... reasons I can't remember. My fault, not theirs

The second is to ignore contradicting text in favor of subtext. As I said, my debate partners HATE it when I do this. The Sacrifice quest states that the "Helminth Bio drones" (what would later become the first Warframes) were abandoned for being uncontrollable. They were mentally tortured, but this didn't control them either. Then the Z-kids came along and just befriended them. While this narration is going on, the camera is pointing DIRECTLY at Excalibur Umbra. The implication here should be obvious: whoever wrote the final version of the Sacrifice clearly intended the Umbras to be the Helminth Bio Drones. It's just a shame some of the dialogue is contradictory. But as I said, the text itself is contradictory, so I choose to reject the text in favor of subtext

 

 

1 hour ago, (PSN)Frostelus said:


DE already confirmed that the first and original Warframes were indeed the Primes and as for the regular variants, those are basically replicas created by the Tenno, due to the original blueprints of their Primes were originally lost to the Void at first, until they were found again.

Funny thing is, I can't actually find a source for this, it's just something the fans have assumed for eight years with no source. Unless you can source it?

Edited by TARINunit9
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Ok so my head is already spinning with so many contradictions, but I will try to give thorough explanations on my point of view of how the plot went and some clarifications.
 

2 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Margulis helped build Warframes with Silvana

Margulis didn't exactly help with building the Warframes or at least intentionally. She only taught the Tenno about transference and asked for Silvana's assistance with the therapy.
I believe the original purpose of teaching transference to the Tenno was to seal their powers which were considered dangerous and a threat to the Orokin, considering they wanted to originally dispose of the Tenno, whereas Margulis opposed to their ideas and wanted to keep them safe.
Silvana's task was to help out by creating vessels for the Tenno to use while their powers are sealed. They weren't meant to be Warframes, but rather powerless vessels meant for non-violence.
However, the Orokin soon realized that the transference worked on the Warframes, which led to the development to go further.
Basically, the first Warframes created were considered failure due to their berserk behavior without a host and the project was quickly abandoned like you said, but as soons as they discovered that the Tenno were able control them using transference, that helped them to carry forward with the development of Warframes.
Soon after, because of Silvana's capabilities of creating vessels, she was later given orders to turn them into Warframes, which she reluctantly proceeded. The vessel that was originally meant to be used for harmless purposes, instead became what she hated the most; a Warframe.
Those orders were most likely coming from the higher Orokin or Ballas, not Margulis, judging from this quote from the Silver Grove:

My childhood dream has become a nightmare. I don't blame Margulis, she's as much a victim as the children we're working with. At first, the project seemed therapeutic and nurturing. I was myself. But now... Transference therapy is being turned into a weapon. Now I build these vile weapons called "Warframes" all for one purpose: death. I've become everything I hate.

In conclusion, Margulis was still alive when those first Warframes existed. But as soon as she realized the children were being used for war with the Warframes, she opposed this idea and attempted to put a stop to it, only to be executed in the end.

2 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Taken at face value this would mean that Ballas decided to betray the Orokin for killing Margulis before Margulis was actually dead.

Ballas didn't betray the Orokin before or immediately after after Margulis death. As I said earlier she was still alive when the very first Warframes were created. After she was executed, Ballas continued to develop other Warframes for some time.
It is quite possible that Saryn Prime was created in memory of Margulis, since it sounded like Ballas was mourning her death but also trying to fulfill her wishes of reclaiming the old earth.
After that, Ballas decided he had enough, so he decided to betray the Orokin and give info about the Tenno and the Warframes to Hunhow, but a Dax Warrior discovered his plans and attempted to warn the higher council, but he was instead captured by Ballas and transformed into Excalibur Umbra.

So basically, Excalibur Umbra was actually created way after Margulis was executed and Warframes did exist while she was alive. Because of that Excalibur Umbra couldn't have be the first Warframe, the way I see it.

2 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:
3 hours ago, (PSN)Frostelus said:


DE already confirmed that the first and original Warframes were indeed the Primes and as for the regular variants, those are basically replicas created by the Tenno, due to the original blueprints of their Primes were originally lost to the Void at first, until they were found again.

Funny thing is, I can't actually find a source for this, it's just something the fans have assumed for eight years with no source. Unless you can source it?

Took some time for me to find the source but here is the link of the video: 

Although their answer regarding the original Warframes are indeed the Primes, I didn't realise until now that they were reluctant about that afterwards but also didn't outright deny it either. But judging by the Prime trailers, codex entries and the many references of the Old War are always related to the Primes, all these strongly suggest that the Primes were indeed the first. Especially Rhino Prime's Codex entry, which hints at him being the original Rhino.

Also regarding the fact that regular variants are Tenno replicas of their Orokin counterpart, those are hinted through the Codex entries for weapons like Nikana Prime or Burston Prime:

Nikana Prime:
An ancient blade predating the fall of the Orokin Empire. Forged using techniques lost over the centuries, the edge remains sharper than that of any modern Nikana.

Burston Prime:
Once thought lost to the ages, attempts to reengineer the Burston Prime never fully replicated this weapon's power and agility.

Edited by (PSN)Frostelus
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4 hours ago, (PSN)Frostelus said:

Although their answer regarding the original Warframes are indeed the Primes, I didn't realise until now that they were reluctant about that afterwards but also didn't outright deny it either. But judging by the Prime trailers, codex entries and the many references of the Old War are always related to the Primes, all these strongly suggest that the Primes were indeed the first. Especially Rhino Prime's Codex entry, which hints at him being the original Rhino.

Also regarding the fact that regular variants are Tenno replicas of their Orokin counterpart, those are hinted through the Codex entries for weapons like Nikana Prime or Burston Prime:

Nikana Prime:
An ancient blade predating the fall of the Orokin Empire. Forged using techniques lost over the centuries, the edge remains sharper than that of any modern Nikana.

Burston Prime:
Once thought lost to the ages, attempts to reengineer the Burston Prime never fully replicated this weapon's power and agility.

In my mind, that makes sense for weapons (look at the Dax, Nikana Prime was their standard sidearm) but not for Warframes. To bring up Sinvana again: she didn't make Titania Prime. She made Titania Regular. Ballas took Titania Regular and created Titania Prime. Like she tells us, that HER Titania, the very first Titania, is the one buried in her roots -- and when we dig it up, it's NOT a Prime. The first Titania was not a Prime

She's not the only Regular who coexisted with her Prime during the Old War. Parvos Granum was active either before or during the Old Warm and he only had Protea Regular. Nova's Leverian shows that it was a Nova Regular doing that stuff (the Leverian specifically mentions recorded security footage). Gauss and Grendel were Regular, Drusus Leverian himself dug up shards of Regulars that dated to the Old War. The pattern to me seems pretty obvious: Primes were used as status symbols by the Orokin, and Regular Warframes were also filling out the ranks -- and if Titania is any indication, predated the Primes entirely.

That's why Reb and Steve give a "hesitant yes" instead of a "yes" -- they weren't on board with what the writers were doing at the time (that video came out a year before the Leverian did)

I would also like to talk about Ivara, about how the first Ivara who hunted the Myrmidon was an Ivara Regular, and for her victory was deemed worthy of entering the Tenno war effort (read: Ivara Primes were subsequently made) but I will concede we don't know if Porvis was an eyewitness or not

Lastly I also am not convinced by the Rhino Prime entry. That "Rhino" is clearly one of the Helminth Bio Drones. Likewise, Ember Prime doesn't even appear in her own codex entry, so it seems more than plausible that Rhino Prime doesn't either

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5 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

In my mind, that makes sense for weapons (look at the Dax, Nikana Prime was their standard sidearm) but not for Warframes. To bring up Sinvana again: she didn't make Titania Prime. She made Titania Regular. Ballas took Titania Regular and created Titania Prime. Like she tells us, that HER Titania, the very first Titania, is the one buried in her roots -- and when we dig it up, it's NOT a Prime. The first Titania was not a Prime

She's not the only Regular who coexisted with her Prime during the Old War. Parvos Granum was active either before or during the Old Warm and he only had Protea Regular. Nova's Leverian shows that it was a Nova Regular doing that stuff (the Leverian specifically mentions recorded security footage). Gauss and Grendel were Regular, Drusus Leverian himself dug up shards of Regulars that dated to the Old War. The pattern to me seems pretty obvious: Primes were used as status symbols by the Orokin, and Regular Warframes were also filling out the ranks -- and if Titania is any indication, predated the Primes entirely.

That's why Reb and Steve give a "hesitant yes" instead of a "yes" -- they weren't on board with what the writers were doing at the time (that video came out a year before the Leverian did)

I would also like to talk about Ivara, about how the first Ivara who hunted the Myrmidon was an Ivara Regular, and for her victory was deemed worthy of entering the Tenno war effort (read: Ivara Primes were subsequently made) but I will concede we don't know if Porvis was an eyewitness or not

Lastly I also am not convinced by the Rhino Prime entry. That "Rhino" is clearly one of the Helminth Bio Drones. Likewise, Ember Prime doesn't even appear in her own codex entry, so it seems more than plausible that Rhino Prime doesn't either

Looking back, I'm beginning to have second thoughts now regarding the theories on whether the Primes Warframes were actually first. Though I still like to believe that at least some Warframes did start out as Primes first which later got replicated by the Tenno. Not just weapons.

Regarding the Leverian, I always assumed those stories weren't actually releated to the originals, but rather were more about certain individuals that had interesting stories, with the exception of Ivara as that one strongly implies that it was about the original Ivara,
A few explanations to why the Leverian chose to show the regular variants is ether the originals actually were regular variatns or it could be because these individual Warframes appearances are unclear or unknown as the sources are very likely to be based of documentaries and lost texts. Thus why the regulars are being displayed rather than Primes may simply because nowadays the regulars are considered and serves as the most standard and the most iconic look for each Frame.

Though I still stand firm on how the lore follows regarding Margulis's involvement with the first Warframes and that Excalibur Umbra couldn't have been the first.
Perhaps those first Warframes that initially went berserk could very well be other "Umbras" like you theorized or they were simply unknown prototypes that are completely unrelated to any of the current existing Warframe models we know of.
It's quite possible that as soon as the Orokin learned about the Tenno and their transferece, it was then they began with creating all the actual Warframes that we see today, while the unknown prototypes were either disposed of or stored away and may never see the light of day or won't be discovered in the distant future.

Anyway, I don't know anymore. These are just theories, so there's no right or wrong in all this. And as I said, I'm beginning to have second thought about whether the Primes were actually the first or not. So I'll concede to those facts as well. I'll stand corrected with your theories about the original Warframes, just not Excalbur Umbra as mentioned above.

13 hours ago, Flannoit said:

I imagine when the Tenno recreated the blueprints for the non-primed variants, it can probably be assumed that a lot of the prime addon parts were seen as "unnecessary noise" or other things that just didn't seem like it was actually part of it, but part of something else. But this moreso explains why earlier Primes look so similar to their non-primes with the exception of a few extra pieces. (Like Excalibur Prime, Mag Prime, and Volt Prime)

Then when it comes to the primes that look a lot more different than their originals, it can probably be safely assumed that they tried their best to work with what they got and fill in the blanks, which is why regular Oberon and Oberon Prime look so different.

09YfoPy.pngtOOsXGR.png

As for Nidus, we got his blueprint and parts from someone else, so it's entirely possible that what we know about Nidus might be an assumption based on what we learned during his obtain quests/missions, with some of the gaps being filled in, ignored, or guesstimated. The same is also true for Mesa, since technically we got her parts thanks to Alad V.

I probably already said this, but I personally think that the Tenno-variant frames are mostly just a result of misinformation or misunderstanding what the blueprint entailed and just going with what seems to fit the most for what information they do have.

I will partially agree that the regular variants are very likely to be replicas based on missinformation as they couldn't fully replicate the full powers of the Primes due to the blueprints were originaly lost in the Void. However, we do know that regular Warframes did exist during the Old War since the regular Nidus blueprint is a relic from the Old War, so there's also the possibility that the regulars were meant to be "cheaper" variants that are weaker, but effective nonetheless.
In the case of Mesa, I don't think her appearance has anything to do with her parts being in the posession of Alad V. It's more likely that many Warframes blueprints and their components were scattered through the system after the Old War ended and some fell into the possession of different entities and such. But at the same times, I don't think most of these serves any canonical roles either like we've seen with Ash and Oberon having their drops changed and such and are all just there for gameplay purposes. Although in the case of Valkyr, she's one of the few that makes the most sense to drop from Alad V due to her backstory overall.

Regarding the the differences between the Primes and regulars in terms of looks, I don't think those have any real canonical meaning either, so to speak.
Basically, we know that the earliest Primes released for the game such as Excalibur, Frost and Mag have the least distinct differences between their regular and Primes, as they're basically just reskins with different helmets, while the more recent Primes have more drastic changes and has completely different molds. But lore wise I don't think it has anything to do with the lore at all, but rather the way it is were simply because of the limitation on resources from the developers from a technical standpoint. It's kinda the same reason to how Nyx's body is the same as Excalibur's, because she was originally going to be a female version of Excalibur, but later scrapped. In the lore however, they got nothing in common and are most likely just coincidences.

Edited by (PSN)Frostelus
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