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Void damage on Primed Weapons?


BahamutKaiser
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I've noticed that the proliferation of Nemesis weapons has nearly erased Primed Weapons from the META, the addition of an extra element of damage combine with the amount of launcher weapons has made primes ostensibly obsolete. 

What if they released an Ogris Prime?, or a Lenz Prime with the next release? I don't even know if any competitive launchers are on the Prime schedule, but even if one did come out, could it compete with 10 extra polarity and 60% of an additional element? As far as I know those bonus elements scale the weapons base damage too. 

So Strun Prime comes out next week, and I'm looking at my Kuva Kohm that has magnetic to top off it's viral heat slash and thinking, how is that even a choice? 

Even if I had a Riven for a new Prime and not a Nemesis weapon, that new prime would release with minimum disposition. 

This should be weighed. I figured maybe they could give the Prime weapons a unique effect like fixed 1% chance to deal void status effect, maybe even 1% void damage. They can probably rip off Xata's Whisper for the effect, and even if it is a trivial addition that doesn't affect much, it would be interesting.

Yes, it would affect high fire rate and pellet count weapons much more, but I don't see that as a problem since almost none of those are launcher weapons. It might even be cool if it applied to exalted weapons, but then regulators kind of ruins that. 

Even if it was a gimmick like primed frames that only triggered if you got the void fissure buff on your weapon during Fissures, it would make it a little more entertaining. 

I'm fine with Nemesis weapons being the new META, I'm not seeking a way to elevate every weapon to compensate, but Prime weapons are supposed to be competitive, could we get something at least interesting? 

Edited by BahamutKaiser
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While Prime versions are supposed to be competitive, it's not uncommon for some of them to come out of the oven well below the established meta.  They're never absolute garbage by any means, as they do get the job done, but lackluster performance isn't anything new.

Unless I'm mistaken, I believe they don't make prime versions of Grineer and Corpus weapons, which both the Ogris and the Lenz would fall under.  I'm trying to think of a Tenno-aligned explosive weapon and I'm coming up empty, though I'm far from an expert.

A unique effect for primes would certainly be a fun gimmick, but I personally would want to lean away from Void damage.  Void damage is already this conditional weird thing that has special rules for special contexts, and it's just a messy as heck design that I would prefer didn't get any messier.  Beyond that, status effects from weapons that exist outside of the scope of status chance seems like a complicated universal effect to give every weapon with Prime in the name; it would confuse the heck out of the new players the game struggles to hook.  If I would rather see something more in-line with the Syndicate weapon effects...though even that would be something everyone would want on Prime weapons, as they can interrupt stealth, etc.

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10 minutes ago, p_silveira said:

If that's the case, I'd like to have some degree of control on the damage type and status chances on my weapons. I'd hate for Void damage to start proccing useless Void Bullet Attractors on my status builds.

ueseless? Maybe the old version, but the new one it's amazing, since it doesn't block your projectiles and you are capable of landing headshots regardless the proc
____

Void dmg on them would be weird, but some synergy with warframe energy (like giving energy regen per kill) would make more sense imho

 

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1 hour ago, vanaukas said:

ueseless? Maybe the old version, but the new one it's amazing, since it doesn't block your projectiles and you are capable of landing headshots regardless the proc

It does? Just checked the Wiki, if that's the case they haven't updated it yet. Link here. Copy/pasted the Void Status description bellow, highlighting the annoying part:

Quote

The Status Effect of DmgVoidSmall64.png Void damage is Bullet Attractor, which creates a small 5 meter field centered on where the target was shot for 3 seconds (e.g. proccing DmgVoidSmall64.png Void on the target's head creates the Bullet Attractor field centered on their head, proccing on their feet centers the field on their feet). Hit-scan bullets and projectiles that are shot into the field will be redirected towards the target. Projectiles with Punch Through are capable of hitting enemies in the field multiple times and running down their available punch through distance until they despawn.

Afflicted enemies will also have their own projectiles redirected, preventing them from properly shooting the player.

 

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2 hours ago, BahamutKaiser said:

What if they released an Ogris Prime?, or a Lenz Prime with the next release? I don't even know if any competitive launchers are on the Prime schedule, but even if one did come out, could it compete with 10 extra polarity and 60% of an additional element? As far as I know those bonus elements scale the weapons base damage too. 

Grineer and Corpus weapons get Wraith and Vandal variants, not Primes. Ogris is even less likely since it has the Kuva version.

ultimately Prime weapons usually get some kind of gimmick, or a noticeable stat boost. Magnus has no variants, so the prime will likely be far and away better statwise, plus any gimmick it gets. Strun already ahs a variant in Strun Wraith, which is still not a popular shotgun anyway, so the prime will need to be something special. I hope they treat it like the Corinth Prime and give it a detached magazine; the manual shell by shell reload puts me off Strun, and I can't be the only one.

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Conditional void damage on a prime might be kind of interesting, but aren’t we already suffering from the game being too easy? Personally I see no problem with weapons not competing in the meta, but if they were to be brought closer together, I think it’s not a great idea to balance around high Steel Path efficiency

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48 minutes ago, p_silveira said:

It does? Just checked the Wiki, if that's the case they haven't updated it yet. Link here. Copy/pasted the Void Status description bellow, highlighting the annoying part:

 

Quote

 

e.g. proccing  Void on the target's head creates the Bullet Attractor field centered on their head

 

 

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3 hours ago, p_silveira said:

If that's the case, I'd like to have some degree of control on the damage type and status chances on my weapons. I'd hate for Void damage to start proccing useless Void Bullet Attractors on my status builds.

If void damage worked as it currently does when using xaku’s 1, it would apply two instances of damage per bullet, one would be the normal expected version, the other could be the void damage allowing both to proc independently of each other so status values arent impacted

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1 hour ago, vanaukas said:
  Quote

 

e.g. proccing  Void on the target's head creates the Bullet Attractor field centered on their head

 

Yeah, and then there's that:

2 hours ago, p_silveira said:

proccing on their feet centers the field on their feet

Therefore, if I proc a Void status on an enemy's shoulder by accident, it will create a Bullet Attractor centered on his shoulder for 3 seconds, which will prevent me from hitting his head for the entire subsequent 3 seconds duration. That's a big "no, thank you" from me.

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1 hour ago, (PSN)CommanderC2121 said:

If void damage worked as it currently does when using xaku’s 1, it would apply two instances of damage per bullet, one would be the normal expected version, the other could be the void damage allowing both to proc independently of each other so status values arent impacted

That's cool, didn't pay much attention to Xaku post release so I wasn't aware of that. Still, the bullet attractors may get in the way of subsequent headshots if the proc on the enemy's torso, for example. That would have to be revised before adding Void damage to weapons.

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Personally? I don't like nemesis weapons... at all.

Mandatory forma, 90% AoE, and with riven dispo's that can win olympic medals for limbo, they really do not stick with me. Especailly since you need to get several versions of it to make it as strong as its base stats can be with valance fusion. TBH if i were in charge there is a lot i'd change, namely making "kuva" and "tenet" weapons into "wraith" and "vandel" weapons, Seriously, we already had a system setup for this, now stuff is unnecessarily complex.

IMO, nemesis weapons are too damn strong, and not because of the stats, but because of the way these "kuva" and "tenet" weapons function.

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I was not aware Prime weapons were supposed to be the top of the line alpha and omega at all times and nothing else can ever be better even if introduced much later with significantly steeper acquisition requirements.

Retroactive powercreep in response to new content types is nothing that something I'm particularly fond of because even if Kuva and Tenet weapons didn't exist, that doesn't guarantee the Strun Prime will be top of the line. That's mostly dictated by the weapon's intended mastery rank as per DE themselves rather than simply being "powerful because new".

Your argument/suggestion pretty much boils down to "The new thing must be competitive with the rest", which is not healthy for the game considering how the rest is already performing.

Edited by Jarriaga
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Sure, I'm OK with Xaku-style in-name-only fake Void damage on primed weapons.

EDIT: Because real Void damage would make Operator pointless/obsolete... which is why Xaku's "Void damage" isn't really Void damage.

Edited by nslay
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Good points guys, I didn't think very hard about Prime Weapons in the Old War, but being that Operators with Warframes were already in the Old War with counter Sentient capabilities, that isn't so significant, the void damage could be enabled by the operator rather than the weapon itself. 

Still now that I think of it more, Umbra and his sacrificial mods are more designated for Sentient slaying, that's a nice separate place to keep it. 

As for the ridiculous hyperbole about making all new prime weapons competitive, you can keep your straw man, 1% external void damage and void status chance isn't going to make any prime compete with Nemesis weapons. It's a novelty to make them more interesting.

The ability to add single or dual element to a weapon outside it's mods, with 33% more capacity makes any similar weapon a joke. With the new damage per condition mods, extra statuses multiply effectiveness vs more factions and universally. There are still quite a few unique weapons and niche features that work okay, and I'm not really concerned with weapon balance, it's just a little anti climatic to see prime packages trying to sell inferior weapons, I can't even see anyone wanting to acquire them to begin with. 

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On 2021-09-03 at 7:52 PM, (PSN)Unstar said:

I'm trying to think of a Tenno-aligned explosive weapon and I'm coming up empty, though I'm far from an expert

Good point, there aren't any. I suppose the closest would be the Acceltra and Akarius, they're not classed as lauchers though. Obviously we need Acceltra prime!

 

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TBH I think the prime weapons do need some attention - all the Kuva and Tenet weapons go to 40 now, yet the "best of the best" Orokin weapons are stuck at a miserable 30. Except for the Paracesis.

And that makes me think - why is the paracesis so special, its not that its a great big sword, but that Ballas put the special sauce on his weapon. He could have put it on an other one. So why not have a adapter/extender/catalyser that allows a prime weapon to get the same level 40 goodness that Paracesis got.

But otherwise its just an example of power creep, the best are just obsolete as time goes on.

 

An alternative though could be the introduction of Orokin Liches. A void tower appears randomly, and in it is an old Dax soldier in cryo. You fight past the corrupted, do some sabotage or spy type mission and out he wakes, slighly miffed at the state of the Orokin empire. Along with a special Dax weapon. Dax Orthos (we have no lich polearms so far) or Dax Bo. Maybe a Dax Braton, Dax Tiberon, or a Dax Rubico. Dax Aklex or Dax Ballistica. And why not let the progenitor frame (revenant or xaku) give it void damage instead of elemental.

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It's an interesting idea, however:

1. Primed weapons are tenno weapons. Kuva weapons are grineer weapons. And tenet weapons are corpus weapons. We will not see a primed gorgon (tenno x grineer) or tenet nikana (corpus x tenno) -or at least that's the original design. But yeah don't be surprised if DE decides to change the rule one day.

2. Void on anything else would absolutely kill the already-unpopular kid mode.

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