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Revenant Thralls


Johan_Force
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This topic manifests itself in the forums every week, basically. Be prepared for people raining in the thread to tell you that "this is the way for the ability to work" (so that it can be useless apparently, especially with the augment) and that "it could lead to trolling" (spoiler alert, it does not) though.

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I personally think Revenant's 1 and 2 need a complete overhaul, at the very least.

He'll never see the benefits of a thrall cos players intentionally grief him all the time. If I had 1 plat for every time a player stared at my thrall for a solid half a minute before deciding to smack it to death, I'd be able to buy his Deluxe 4 times over.

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If they would make them immune to damage it would just make the ability like Nekros' 4. At the moment the ability feels different as it spreads like a zombie infection which I prefer over Nekros. It's a cycle of life and death, dying and reinfecting.

As I see it, the problem is that when we create a thrall and a player kills him, it is work and not fun for us to replace it again.

So a solution could be that, if a thrall dies within the first 5 seconds, a drone will directly seek out a nearby enemy (boosted by range mods) and will not create a pillar.

Also if no enemies are nearby, the drone will follow you until an enemy gets into the range.

So this way you're not going to have to recast the ability as many times as you do now.

Edited by Xionor
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9 hours ago, Flannoit said:

I personally think Revenant's 1 and 2 need a complete overhaul, at the very least.

He'll never see the benefits of a thrall cos players intentionally grief him all the time. If I had 1 plat for every time a player stared at my thrall for a solid half a minute before deciding to smack it to death, I'd be able to buy his Deluxe 4 times over.

This 100%. Aside from its serious thematic conflicts. Revenants 1 is a mechanic failure of the “Use minions as sacrificial pawns for your abilities” mechanic they tried to implement into him. And that’s due to the fact that the Thralls themselves are just converted enemies.

Changing them into something like summonable friendly vomvalysts and giving them better synergies would go a long way in making Revenant better.

And his 2 is also terribly designed. A tank ability that has a static amount of hit points in a scaling horde shooter? Sorry but 100% DR literally is not good enough justification for such a poorly thought out ability.

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4 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

This 100%. Aside from its serious thematic conflicts. Revenants 1 is a mechanic failure of the “Use minions as sacrificial pawns for your abilities” mechanic they tried to implement into him. And that’s due to the fact that the Thralls themselves are just converted enemies.

Changing them into something like summonable friendly vomvalysts and giving them better synergies would go a long way in making Revenant better.

And his 2 is also terribly designed. A tank ability that has a static amount of hit points in a scaling horde shooter? Sorry but 100% DR literally is not good enough justification for such a poorly thought out ability.

Revenant is unfortunately a pet frame, so DE will probably refuse to give him any actual major buffs, even though currently his 1 is blatantly useless even with the 1st-Gen-Thrall-Passover mechanic.

The best case scenario is to just outright strip Revenant of his "pet frame" title so DE will actually start to care about him, but sadly I doubt they'd do that.

It'd be nice if, at the very VERY least, there was some actual synergy between his 1 and 4, since you have to outright stop Dans Macabre (which has approx 2 sec startup AND wind-down) just to cast Thrall again to actually take advantage of the overshield drops, which literally any other frame with an overshield mechanic will do drastically better and infinitely more reliably.

If they really wanted to make him have thralls, they should have made it so Reave is how you get thralls. Passing through an enemy for the first time Thralls them, and passing through an already thralled enemy gives the thrall bonus to Reave, which is just the enhanced shield and HP drain. They can still enforce the thrall cap by just making it so if you have the maximum amount of thralls already, Reave just won't generate more thralls but still otherwise function entirely.

There's many different ways to more appropriately apply thralls that don't blatantly interfere with his gameplay and actually makes making thralls more reliable. Best case scenario is still to either remove the thralls system entirely and adjust his formulas to compensate, or do like I mentioned above and move Thrall to being a side effect of Reave. That makes Thralling both VERY simple, very utilitile, more reliable, and actually makes it so you're not punished as badly for players griefing your thralls, cos you'll at least still get the main effect of Reave out of it.

Thralling enemies 9/10 times is a complete waste of energy, because other players almost ALWAYS kill them for funsies. So that's 25 base energy in the toilet almost every single time you cast Thrall, which does not inherently have AoE. Add in the 7 thrall cap, and you will have to waste 175 energy for Thralls that your squad will kill because they can. 175 energy that can be better put to use on Dans Macabre or Reave.

As for Mesmer Skin, I actually replaced it with Gloom, and so far I'm getting way more out of it than I was from Mesmer.

Edited by Flannoit
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14 hours ago, Flannoit said:

I personally think Revenant's 1 and 2 need a complete overhaul, at the very least.

He'll never see the benefits of a thrall cos players intentionally grief him all the time. If I had 1 plat for every time a player stared at my thrall for a solid half a minute before deciding to smack it to death, I'd be able to buy his Deluxe 4 times over.

It's not griefing to kill thralls.  They spawn pillars that create more thralls.  I can see how if you're trying to make use of the augment for his 1 you'd get upset, but that's nothing new to Warframe.  There are plenty of frames, augments, and abilities that perform better solo.

 

23 minutes ago, Flannoit said:

Revenant is unfortunately a pet frame, so DE will probably refuse to give him any actual major buffs, even though currently his 1 is blatantly useless even with the 1st-Gen-Thrall-Passover mechanic.

 

He's absolutely not a pet frame, at least not primarily.  His thralls are a combination of CC and a resource to interact with the rest of his kit.  If you're viewing him as a pet frame, you're going to have a bad time, and his usefulness will likely top out somewhere around Phobos on the star chart.

 

25 minutes ago, Flannoit said:

 

As for Mesmer Skin, I actually replaced it with Gloom, and so far I'm getting way more out of it than I was from Mesmer.

Mesmer Skin is perhaps the best tanking ability in the game.  Why... why wouldn't you ditch his 4?  Obviously you're free to do what you want.  And yes, Gloom is very powerful (and should probably be nerfed on Helminth if for no other reason than it would be in line with the logic that DE used to pre-nerf Defy, Roar, and others).  But if you're already building for strength, which you absolutely should on Revenant, Mesmer Skin is a no-brainer.

 

16 hours ago, p_silveira said:

This topic manifests itself in the forums every week, basically. Be prepared for people raining in the thread to tell you that "this is the way for the ability to work" (so that it can be useless apparently, especially with the augment) and that "it could lead to trolling" (spoiler alert, it does not) though.

Raining Amelie Poulain GIF by Sandra Suárez

I would honestly argue that Revenant's thralls being immune to certain powers is more of a problem than them being vulnerable to ally attacks.  Nothing rains on my spore parade like a thrall-spamming Revenant.  In any event, thralls aren't useless.  As stated above, they are CC and a resource to interact with the rest of his kit.

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12 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

It's not griefing to kill thralls.  They spawn pillars that create more thralls.  I can see how if you're trying to make use of the augment for his 1 you'd get upset, but that's nothing new to Warframe.  There are plenty of frames, augments, and abilities that perform better solo.

 

He's absolutely not a pet frame, at least not primarily.  His thralls are a combination of CC and a resource to interact with the rest of his kit.  If you're viewing him as a pet frame, you're going to have a bad time, and his usefulness will likely top out somewhere around Phobos on the star chart.

 

Mesmer Skin is perhaps the best tanking ability in the game.  Why... why wouldn't you ditch his 4?  Obviously you're free to do what you want.  And yes, Gloom is very powerful (and should probably be nerfed on Helminth if for no other reason than it would be in line with the logic that DE used to pre-nerf Defy, Roar, and others).  But if you're already building for strength, which you absolutely should on Revenant, Mesmer Skin is a no-brainer.

Being able to make beta thralls is great and all, but beta thralls do not spread their thralling further. And guess what players do to beta thralls? Kill them. That's still griefing. And his 1 augment is literally also useless because players kill his thralls without batting an eyelash.

He's very much a pet frame because a lot of his mechanics change whether or not he has thralls, his pets. Nekros is also a pet frame except at least he's somewhat decent at it since his are more of a dedicated pet than Rev's thralls. I'm also already into SP and use Revenant regularly, and my opinion on his thralls have been relatively the same since I started using him. The thrall pillar alleviates SOME of the problem, but it's just a makeshift bandaid over a problem that needs proper resolution.

Being bad at being a pet frame doesn't discount that he's still a pet frame at the end of the day.

I swapped out Mesmer cos I personally hate it. That's my choice. I keep his 4 because I like his 4. That's also my choice.

Edited by Flannoit
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4 hours ago, Flannoit said:

Being able to make beta thralls is great and all, but beta thralls do not spread their thralling further.

Unless what you mean is "beta thralls do not create pillars", you're factually wrong here. Beta thralls are able to spread their thralling by hitting other enemies.

11 hours ago, Xionor said:

So a solution could be that, if a thrall dies within the first 5 seconds, a drone will directly seek out a nearby enemy (boosted by range mods) and will not create a pillar.

So instead of creating an object that constantly enthralls enemies in the area, you'd rather have it enthrall a single enemy and leave it at that? Yeah, no thanks. Just mod for some Range and Duration and would you look at that,

11 hours ago, Xionor said:

you're not going to have to recast the ability as many times as you do now.

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His 2 is absolutely fine the way it is in fact I use it as a tank in the index. His 1 is the ability that needs the most buffed out of anything. Other enemys can still kill them and that is the only thing I want killing them. I recently had a player literally killing my thralls just to kill them. Literally specifically targeting my thralls every time I cast the ability. If any ability needs to be replaced with helminth it would have to be his 1 due to how useless it currently is. 10/10 worst ability in the game co-op wise. For the guy saying to just use him when you solo who the heck solos in a multiplayer game where you are supposed to cooperate with your teammates and not grief them by killing things that you are turning into an ally.

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7 hours ago, Flannoit said:

Revenant is unfortunately a pet frame, so DE will probably refuse to give him any actual major buffs, even though currently his 1 is blatantly useless even with the 1st-Gen-Thrall-Passover mechanic.

The best case scenario is to just outright strip Revenant of his "pet frame" title so DE will actually start to care about him, but sadly I doubt they'd do that.

It'd be nice if, at the very VERY least, there was some actual synergy between his 1 and 4, since you have to outright stop Dans Macabre (which has approx 2 sec startup AND wind-down) just to cast Thrall again to actually take advantage of the overshield drops, which literally any other frame with an overshield mechanic will do drastically better and infinitely more reliably.

If they really wanted to make him have thralls, they should have made it so Reave is how you get thralls. Passing through an enemy for the first time Thralls them, and passing through an already thralled enemy gives the thrall bonus to Reave, which is just the enhanced shield and HP drain. They can still enforce the thrall cap by just making it so if you have the maximum amount of thralls already, Reave just won't generate more thralls but still otherwise function entirely.

There's many different ways to more appropriately apply thralls that don't blatantly interfere with his gameplay and actually makes making thralls more reliable. Best case scenario is still to either remove the thralls system entirely and adjust his formulas to compensate, or do like I mentioned above and move Thrall to being a side effect of Reave. That makes Thralling both VERY simple, very utilitile, more reliable, and actually makes it so you're not punished as badly for players griefing your thralls, cos you'll at least still get the main effect of Reave out of it.

Thralling enemies 9/10 times is a complete waste of energy, because other players almost ALWAYS kill them for funsies. So that's 25 base energy in the toilet almost every single time you cast Thrall, which does not inherently have AoE. Add in the 7 thrall cap, and you will have to waste 175 energy for Thralls that your squad will kill because they can. 175 energy that can be better put to use on Dans Macabre or Reave.

As for Mesmer Skin, I actually replaced it with Gloom, and so far I'm getting way more out of it than I was from Mesmer.

Naw, best case Scenario is to make Caliban into a proper Sentient themed Warframe who’s objectively good and the community just throw Revenant into the trash bin with Hydroid and Nyx.

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7 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

So instead of creating an object that constantly enthralls enemies in the area, you'd rather have it enthrall a single enemy and leave it at that? Yeah, no thanks. Just mod for some Range and Duration and would you look at that,

I meant it as an addition not as a replacement for what it is now but I understand that it is written unclear.

The fact that this thread manifests itself so many time proves that there is something wrong with the ability.

The pathetic 16m radius of the pillars is not enough to infect a new group which are over 30 meters away. I don't disagree that there are maps where he performs perfectly fine but there are also maps where it becomes difficult to maintain the thralls especially with the aoe meta right now. His performance is inconsistent. All I want is that it becomes more consistent and to make it less annoying that I have to replace the thralls that all got killed in 1 kuva bramma shot.

I'm curious why you're always lurking in those thrall threads if your opinion is not to be changed. You think that your opinion is above other opinions. we come here because there are pros and cons to this ability as with every ability. The fact that you have NEVER had a group where the ability was underperforming is just wierd. Also your comments about duration/range seem to be your answer for everything. I have 175% range, 183% duration and natural talent and still it underperforms with certain groups/maps. I also use mind control for 1 immortal thrall.

Edited by Xionor
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7 hours ago, Johan_Force said:

His 2 is absolutely fine the way it is in fact I use it as a tank in the index. His 1 is the ability that needs the most buffed out of anything. Other enemys can still kill them and that is the only thing I want killing them. I recently had a player literally killing my thralls just to kill them. Literally specifically targeting my thralls every time I cast the ability. If any ability needs to be replaced with helminth it would have to be his 1 due to how useless it currently is. 10/10 worst ability in the game co-op wise. For the guy saying to just use him when you solo who the heck solos in a multiplayer game where you are supposed to cooperate with your teammates and not grief them by killing things that you are turning into an ally.

I agree that his 2 is fantastic.  But I disagree with your other points.  Solo has many, many benefits.  Most missions can be completed faster solo.  The game is more stable solo.  You can kit out your RJ and actually be guaranteed to fly your RJ when solo.  Bounties have easier objectives when solo.  You can go at your own pace when solo, which is good for fast players (no friendship doors or waiting at extraction) and players who like to take their time.  I play my Steel Path incursions solo more often than not so I can take my time and force an acolyte to spawn.

 

But to get back to Revenant, it's not griefing to kill thralls:

  • Your teammates have no idea if you're using the augment or not.
  • Thralls are CC, and death is the best CC, especially in a looter shooter where more death = more loot + more XP.
  • Thralls dying = more thralls in many situations.
  • One of the best benefits to enthralling an enemy is how you can Reave to instantly kill it, also resulting in thrall death.
  • If you're dependent on thralls for life/shield steal through Reave, might I suggest Magus Husk and an Augur mod?
  • Thralls deal almost no damage anyway, so you can't rely on them for kills.
  • When you are at max thralls, you cannot cast the ability to make more, even when the thralls you still have are six or seven rooms behind you and no longer helping.

 

If you aren't using the augment (which I admit should not have been made, or should be severely reworked), why do you care if someone kills your thralls?

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5 hours ago, Xionor said:

I meant it as an addition not as a replacement for what it is now but I understand that it is written unclear.

The fact that this thread manifests itself so many time proves that there is something wrong with the ability.

The pathetic 16m radius of the pillars is not enough to infect a new group which are over 30 meters away. I don't disagree that there are maps where he performs perfectly fine but there are also maps where it becomes difficult to maintain the thralls especially with the aoe meta right now. His performance is inconsistent. All I want is that it becomes more consistent and to make it less annoying that I have to replace the thralls that all got killed in 1 kuva bramma shot.

If it's an addition and not a replacement of the pillar, I can see that being a buff for sure. As for the radius, sure, a single pillar won't cover an entire room, so that's where you might want to cast multiple Enthralls to spread pillars in every direction where enemies may come from.

5 hours ago, Xionor said:

I'm curious why you're always lurking in those thrall threads if your opinion is not to be changed. You think that your opinion is above other opinions. we come here because there are pros and cons to this ability as with every ability. The fact that you have NEVER had a group where the ability was underperforming is just wierd. Also your comments about duration/range seem to be your answer for everything. I have 175% range, 183% duration and natural talent and still it underperforms with certain groups/maps. I also use mind control for 1 immortal thrall.

My opinion has seen little change because the changes proposed are always so unnecessary. For example:

On 2021-09-05 at 6:30 AM, Johan_Force said:

immune to ally damage other wise they are completely useless

20 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Changing them into something like summonable friendly vomvalysts

If I saw someone propose these changes to Nyx's Chaos, I would shake my head, as do I when they are proposed for Enthrall. Nyx's issue of people one-shotting her enemies is solved through Chaos Sphere, which automatically affects any enemy that comes into range. Vampire boi has his alleviated by the pillars. You can definitely argue that the pillars aren't strong enough, or even that the ability should summon an "alpha pillar" that can create alpha thralls instead of having to do that yourself, and I would listen to such arguments, but what I so often see instead is ideas that are equivalent of using a bulldozer to drive down a nail, and such excessive solutions do little to sway my opinion. 

If you want an army whose members never die, Enthrall is just as off-base of a choice as Chaos Sphere. If you want to actually improve on what the ability is supposed to accomplish, suggest buffs related to quickly enthralling more instead of sturdier thralls. Otherwise, you might as well start complaining about the Bramma-wielder cleaning out your Chaos Sphere.

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49 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

If it's an addition and not a replacement of the pillar, I can see that being a buff for sure. As for the radius, sure, a single pillar won't cover an entire room, so that's where you might want to cast multiple Enthralls to spread pillars in every direction where enemies may come from.

In a good open map that works for sure especially if there are multiple floors like the void one with the elevator that you often see in the simulacrum. There are still so many maps where enemy spawns are limited to a couple of doors where the enemies can come from. So there are 3 entries for example meaning 3 groups I can affect. But guess what every of the three 3 groups are instantly dead. Now I did spread out the thralls like 2 at door A, 3 at door B and 2 at door C. New enemies come and get affected by the pillars, boom they are instantly dead again too and now there are no pillars as they were beta thralls and I have to begin the cycle again by spamming 1 which isn't fun.

I see it similar to Ash before he got the "mark an enemy 3 times isntantly" buff. It was just annoying to mark enemies 3 times. The amount of times I have to use his 1 is just tiresome in a meta group. I just want like I said in a different post more of a passive spread. Like the pillars can charge Rev like the eidolon lures. If an enemy is within 20 meters those charges infect the enemy. The charges have the remaining duration of the Thrall that died.

Also as you said, creating only "Alpha Pillars" would definitely be the simplest way to buff it and make it good enough in my eyes.

Edited by Xionor
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2 hours ago, Xionor said:

But guess what every of the three 3 groups are instantly dead.

It's the same problem that basically all CC has, yeah - it's so easy to kill enemies that CC has lost nearly all of its value. I don't think stronger CC is the solution here though, but rather a serious rebalance of damage output from both players and enemies. For the occasions where literally everything doesn't literally instantly die though, I'm content with most CC we have in their current form. Having thralls pop up here and there to slow down the loss of Mesmer charges is neat enough, and no enemies also means that you're not losing Mesmer charges either so no real issue with that.

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The only real ability Revenant needs replacing is his 4 so it's not a press-4-to-win gimmick. He is themed after being corrupted by Eidolon influence, he should be given an ability reminiscent of those enemies.

+1 to OP. Thralls should only be able to take damage from other enemies and the Revenant who owns them. If nothing else, compromise by giving thralls the Nyx Mind Control treatment by having any ally damage done to them be applied immediately when effect ends.

14 hours ago, Johan_Force said:

For the guy saying to just use him when you solo who the heck solos in a multiplayer game where you are supposed to cooperate with your teammates and not grief them by killing things that you are turning into an ally.

I would play solo. In fact I'd be playing solo right now in order to avoid teammates hovering around me and instantly murdering my thralls, that and avoiding the extremely common occurrence of teaming up with nuke frames like Saryn and Mesa who turn the game into a walking simulator for everyone who isn't them. The only reason I don't play solo is because the enemy spawns in solo are hot garbage. Have you tried getting anywhere in survival or excavation solo? Exercise in frustration is what that is.

It would be cool if DE implemented gear items that passively raise enemy spawn amount.

Edited by Pizzarugi
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On 2021-09-05 at 10:44 AM, Xionor said:

At the moment the ability feels different as it spreads like a zombie infection which I prefer over Nekros. It's a cycle of life and death, dying and reinfecting.

except this only happens if you play solo with revenant with a pacifist style, cause they're actually pretty bad at spreading since they have alot of mechanics in place that limit their ability to spread despite having a 7 enemy limit already.

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On 2021-09-05 at 8:44 AM, Xionor said:

If they would make them immune to damage it would just make the ability like Nekros' 4.

It's fine to want these abilities to be different from each other. The problem is that SotD is actually a somewhat functional minion master ability, and Enthrall isn't. 

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14 hours ago, Gurpgork said:

It's fine to want these abilities to be different from each other. The problem is that SotD is actually a somewhat functional minion master ability, and Enthrall isn't. 

I don't understand the need to make every ability feel 100% unique. If a mechanic works for one ability, why not apply it to others that are similar? Avoiding QoL for uniqueness ultimately leaves players not liking certain things because the devs are intentionally avoiding things that would make them more enjoyable to play.

It's not like immunity to friendly fire damage (except from yourself) is suddenly going to make it behave exactly like SotD. The minions still spread enthrall to other enemies if you're not at the cap plus they can still be damaged by Revenant, neither of which can be done with Nekros's shadows.

Edited by Pizzarugi
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Enthrall isn't a minion ability, its food processing. Enthrall is there as a rudementary de-aggro tool, bodybag and a bread and butter set-up for the rest of his abilities.

The payoff lies in their deaths and there is no reason for them to be alive sine they do piss poor damage on their own, besides you barely see anyone using minion abilities on a random fireteam except for Nekros, being the only exception because his shades directly ties to his survivability.

Edited by ConsumerJTC
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1 hour ago, ConsumerJTC said:

Enthrall isn't a minion ability, its food processing. Enthrall is there as a rudementary de-aggro tool, bodybag and a bread and butter set-up for the rest of his abilities.

The payoff lies in their deaths and there is no reason for them to be alive sine they do piss poor damage on their own, besides you barely see anyone using minion abilities on a random fireteam except for Nekros, being the only exception because his shades directly ties to his survivability.

Except teammates killing them, and everything near them, doesn't benefit Revenant in any way, since he's the only one who can process the food.

Thralls are wheat, Revenant's the farmer, teammates are bulldozers. Bulldozers are detrimental as they destroy the crops and the land they grow on. The solution isn't to ignore the bulldozers while they continue recklessly destroying the food and ruining the land so the farmer can't grow more.

Edited by Pizzarugi
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3 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

Thralls are wheat, Revenant's the farmer, teammates are bulldozers. Bulldozers are detrimental as they destroy the crops and the land they grow on. The solution isn't to ignore the bulldozers while they continue recklessly destroying the food and ruining the land so the farmer can't grow more.

Replace "Thralls" with "Chaos'd enemies" and "Revenant" with "Nyx" and it becomes apparent why this is plain wrong. Enthrall is CC, simple as that.

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55 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Replace "Thralls" with "Chaos'd enemies" and "Revenant" with "Nyx" and it becomes apparent why this is plain wrong. Enthrall is CC, simple as that.

Thralls don't actively shoot you if there's nobody else to attack, plus you can apply Chaos to an entire room while Enthrall is limited to 7 enemies. Additionally, Nyx doesn't have any abilities that synchronize with enemies affected by Chaos.

These two are far from similar.

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51 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Thralls don't actively shoot you if there's nobody else to attack, plus you can apply Chaos to an entire room while Enthrall is limited to 7 enemies. Additionally, Nyx doesn't have any abilities that synchronize with enemies affected by Chaos.

These two are far from similar.

Big surprise, few abilities in Warframe are 100% identical. Still, both of them are CC abilities that make enemies attack enemies. Neither of them buff the enemies whatsoever and neither of them make them immune to player damage, so they're still CC'd enemies rather than actual minions. Both of them also have tools for continuing the CC should the enemies die. Both are also limited in the quantity of their effect - Enthrall with 7 enemies and Chaos with one instance.

These two have a lot more in common than you acknowledge, and while we could certainly go on for posts at end about differences and similarities, the main point I made stands uncontested.

1 hour ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Enthrall is CC, simple as that.

It's not an "hey, I called dibs on those kills" ability any more than Larva is. If your teammates are strong enough to bulldoze your thralls, you're in a squad that doesn't need your thralls. Just like it doesn't need Nyx's Chaos.

Edited by Perfectly_Framed_Waifu
Missing word.
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