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It's been a year since it was promised we would have a way to scrap our Liches. Any updates from DE?


(PSN)FirstAidSprays
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I can't be the only one still curious about this.

It was promised a long time ago now that there would be some way to cast aside our Liches, both for the new players who unknowingly convert a Larvling with no idea of what they're getting into, and for veterans who either accidentally converted during the heat of the moment or simply didn't get the desired element % / Ephemera. I'm appreciative of the Pandemic affecting many development teams out there, and have nothing but respect and admiration for DE and all they've managed to do in spite of the difficulties imposed by Covid, but my curiosity on this topic still remains.

I'm aware having a way to just toss aside something you don't like would hamper the RNG aspect of the Lich system, but as it stands, especially with Kuva Liches in particular there's just so much of a grind that it feels like busywork when working toward a Lich you simply don't want.  Not only do you need to get rid of your Requiems, but murmurs farming for Kuva Liches is a slog, in comparison to Sisters who go by fairly quickly due to their accompanying Hound who awards bonus murmurs.  Let's not even get to the fact you now need to partake in Railjack missions to even slay or convert your Liches, which was already a point of contention among the community when those were optional missions for those who bothered to build one.

All in all, it's a mixed bag of busywork and tedium in which if you come to realise your particular element is no good, or there's better alternatives to your Liches current setup, just makes for a monotonous grind.

A poster in a thread from a year ago discussing this very topic suggested we pay 10,000 Kuva to a Kuva Lich, which I think is a fair compromise and also stays true to the lore and thematics of that faction.  With the Sisters, though far less necessary to scrap them as they are a much shorter grind, I could see handing over credits or even debt bonds from Ticker to continue the association with Fortuna.  Something that's expensive enough to not allow for abuse of the system, and also fitting to the lore of that respective faction. Hell, even putting it on a once per week timer like Teshin offerings/Iron Wake Riven Mods would be a good way to prevent abuse.

I do believe, especially for the new players in particular who fall victim to this system without knowing what they're in for, there needs to be some kind of update on the aforementioned proposed plan to do away with unwanted Liches from DE, or at the very least, we get told whether that option is still even coming. I'm MR30, but putting myself in the shoes of a new player: having an enemy that yoinks many of my resources at the end of each mission through no fault of their own, beyond simply Finishing an enemy in the same manner they're used to doing throughout the early game, is going to put many players off from even running missions and will cause a growing resentment for the Lich who greets them each time they log in. This will deter them from even playing, and if they're new especially, they may not even have the Requiems needed to take out their thieving foe.

I would love an answer from DE on when this is coming, if it's still coming at all, and hopefully some kind of time frame for this if possible. I love the game, but this has been a system that's given me mixed feelings for a long time and I want to see any and all QoL improvements to a game I love near and dear.

Apologies if it has been mentioned by DE more recently than a year ago, in which case feel free to ignore this thread entirely. To my knowledge it hasn't been, though.

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They scrapped that idea since you can now see what lich will spawn with what weapon, that system was in place cause you couldn't in the past as seen here:

"What you can’t expect is the ‘Lich be-gone’: We have removed the prototype for this for now, because rather than not fixing the core loop and just letting a Lich be banished, we intend to focus on the core loop first. Since duplicates are now opt-in and have value for a min-maxer, there’s less of a reason to dispel a Lich."

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10 minutes ago, Jivy said:

They scrapped that idea since you can now see what lich will spawn with what weapon, that system was in place cause you couldn't in the past as seen here:

"What you can’t expect is the ‘Lich be-gone’: We have removed the prototype for this for now, because rather than not fixing the core loop and just letting a Lich be banished, we intend to focus on the core loop first. Since duplicates are now opt-in and have value for a min-maxer, there’s less of a reason to dispel a Lich."

While that makes a lot of sense for the benefit of the people who run Larvlings to get their desired weapon, it seems extreme they outright scrapped the proposed dispelling of a Lich when it doesn't solve the issue of new players unknowingly doing a finisher on a Larvling with no idea of what they're getting into. Thanks for sourcing their response, in any case.

Ah well, one step forward and one back.

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30 minutes ago, (PSN)FirstAidSprays said:

This thread from around the same time has a timeframe of the Devstream in particular, as well as comments supporting that.

yeah, but that is not DE, that is people saying what DE said, which... I mean, I get it, why would they say something that is not true, nobody does that on the internet, but... you know? I'd like to see some substance without having to look myself when someone makes claims like that.

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Well, here's what they did: They added a 'confront Lich' item.

You can now earn an item that immediately taunts your Nemesis into appearing, instead of waiting for it. They also provided a 'universal' Requiem so you don't have to farm all of the murmurs, or even have every single Requiem in order to complete the chain.

Whether this provides anything successful or not is on you, though. Because that's about it for getting rid of a Lich.

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7 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Well, here's what they did: They added a 'confront Lich' item.

You can now earn an item that immediately taunts your Nemesis into appearing, instead of waiting for it. They also provided a 'universal' Requiem so you don't have to farm all of the murmurs, or even have every single Requiem in order to complete the chain.

Whether this provides anything successful or not is on you, though. Because that's about it for getting rid of a Lich.

Yes but new players wont have those said items at there disposal

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9 hours ago, moostar95 said:

Reworking old content isnt giving DE money. wait until after the new war. even then its ashot in the dark if they will fix anything in this game. 

In the latest update they literally did just that. The lich system has a new faction, got Oull and Ultimatum to expedite it, the planets they go to are set, allowing for consistent public matches, and you can choose which element applies during valence fusion. Get out of here with this nonsense.

 

14 hours ago, (PSN)FirstAidSprays said:

While that makes a lot of sense for the benefit of the people who run Larvlings to get their desired weapon, it seems extreme they outright scrapped the proposed dispelling of a Lich when it doesn't solve the issue of new players unknowingly doing a finisher on a Larvling with no idea of what they're getting into.

This is even less of an issue as liches are only on one planet at a time, and one can consistently public match their lich if they aren't up to snuff.

Realistically, a dismissal system would be used far more often as a way to expedite ephemera farming, even with heavy limits in place.

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15 hours ago, Jivy said:

They scrapped that idea since you can now see what lich will spawn with what weapon, that system was in place cause you couldn't in the past as seen here:

"What you can’t expect is the ‘Lich be-gone’: We have removed the prototype for this for now, because rather than not fixing the core loop and just letting a Lich be banished, we intend to focus on the core loop first. Since duplicates are now opt-in and have value for a min-maxer, there’s less of a reason to dispel a Lich."

Ok but how does that fix the ephemera farm?

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new players should just stop being new players and suck it up and kill thier litches like everyone els

and before u say "but a i want to play the game the way i want" your not de, u didnt make the rules for the game and they chose to give u something hard to do because the game is too easy

and before u say "but i didnt know!"

you dont have to fight them till ur ready, and u get all the drops back once u do... nothing is lost

Edited by (PSN)Spider_Enigma
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7 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Ok but how does that fix the ephemera farm?

So now the posts move to the completely irrelevant cosmetic side of things?  That are not part of the core loop and farm?
Simple solution there: Trade with someone who has the ephemera that you want.

And because you get the ephemera whether you kill them or spare them you can potentially trade in ephemeras that you've gotten for plat or for ephemeras that you don't have yet.

Further they aren't too expensive from other players at this time.

 

Further if you're at the part of hunting down sisters/liches for ephemera then the hunt shouldn't take much longer than an hour.
Besides that when DE was talking about the ability to skip liches before they scrapped it they were talking about at most once a week or so so it wouldn't really have helped in the ephemera farm.

 

On 2021-09-05 at 6:45 AM, (PSN)FirstAidSprays said:

It was promised a long time ago now that there would be some way to cast aside our Liches, both for the new players who unknowingly convert a Larvling with no idea of what they're getting into, and for veterans who either accidentally converted during the heat of the moment

I'm sorry but if you hold down the interact button for the three or so seconds needed to stab a larva and make a lich that goes a bit beyond a "heat of the moment" type thing.  Its actually quite hard to stab a larva "accidentally"

Further new players are largely protected from their mistake of making a lich as it will only be on Earth at first, which is 100% avoidable until they figure out what they need to do and how to handle it.  It won't bother them or take their resources so they are safe to ignore it until they are ready to take it down.

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10 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Ok but how does that fix the ephemera farm?

What about the ephemera farm needs fixing? You can already target the ephemera you want and the chance for a lich/sister to have an ephemera is already pretty decent (20%). What do you expect the "fixed" state to be?

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10 minutes ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

What about the ephemera farm needs fixing? You can already target the ephemera you want and the chance for a lich/sister to have an ephemera is already pretty decent (20%). What do you expect the "fixed" state to be?

The fact that if you’re just farming for an Ephemera and you don’t get a lich with one that’s still a 2-3 hour grind just to get rid of it. Being forced to grind for something I already know isn’t going to be awarded to me makes me just not want to do the content. And the fact that I then have a character that steals my mission rewards only creates a very negative motivation to go kill your lich.

Basically the lich ephemera grind is nothing but self punishment until the game finally decides to show mercy. And I hate every single second of it.

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14 hours ago, Jivy said:

Yes but new players wont have those said items at there disposal

Not to be completely dismissive, because I'm just the messenger: Yes and?

It's what DE did. It isn't fair, it isn't enough. But they did it.

And they'll sit there and say that they did it and claim it's enough until they get another year into the system and decide to maybe, possibly, consider it again.

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4 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

I'm sorry but if you hold down the interact button for the three or so seconds needed to stab a larva and make a lich that goes a bit beyond a "heat of the moment" type thing.  Its actually quite hard to stab a larva "accidentally"

Except it’s easy to get an auto-stab bug that skips the hold-to-mercy requirement.

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Well the new war has been promised now since half the game's lifetime.. but how long did it take them to start? I just hope it'll be worth the wait, for i will be judging it harshly.

Edited by Joezone619
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6 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

The fact that if you’re just farming for an Ephemera and you don’t get a lich with one that’s still a 2-3 hour grind just to get rid of it. Being forced to grind for something I already know isn’t going to be awarded to me makes me just not want to do the content. And the fact that I then have a character that steals my mission rewards only creates a very negative motivation to go kill your lich.

Basically the lich ephemera grind is nothing but self punishment until the game finally decides to show mercy. And I hate every single second of it.

So... what do you propose the ephemeras to be rewards for?

The way I see it, they are a nice side reward that drops as you are assembling a collection of lich weapons. Sister ephemeras do need a bit of farming due to there not being enough Tenet guns yet, but lich ephemeras simply drop passively as you are farming the guns. If you managed to max out all 19 lich weapons before you got the 7 ephemeras - then you were doing something very wrong!

As for stealing mission rewards - come on! The amounts they steal are trivial for all but the newest of rookies, and they do give it all back once you beat them up! So, really, the resource loss is a complete non-issue!

The way I see it, the lich ephemera grind is one of the mildest grinds in the game: the specific ephemera you are rolling for is easily controllable (via progenitor), the success chance is very high (20%), and you are guaranteed a reward (either new gun or a gun upgrade) even if your ephemera roll is not successful. And the missions are pretty good for passively farming focus (if you're not at max yet). AND they even let you bypass parts of the grind by trading liches: if you put your mind to it, you can convert the lich (getting his ephemera) and then trade him for a lich with another ephemera you're after!

The only milder grind I could think of would be to just put the ephemeras in a shop! But then see all the threads about how horrible holokey farming is (note: it really isn't)!

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On 2021-09-06 at 5:55 AM, (PSN)Spider_Enigma said:

new players should just stop being new players and suck it up and kill thier litches like everyone els

and before u say "but a i want to play the game the way i want" your not de, u didnt make the rules for the game and they chose to give u something hard to do because the game is too easy

and before u say "but i didnt know!"

you dont have to fight them till ur ready, and u get all the drops back once u do... nothing is lost

What a godawful take. "Just don't be new", a very astute and fair, considerate perspective to have toward the new players who are going to keep this game going well after we've stopped playing it.

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I’m one of those new players, we’ll new for me with about 150 hours (MR8) in because there is so much to still learn. Love the game but I’m not that good yet. Usually play solo as I don’t want to slow down advanced players although I like to help others that are less experienced when I do play public. Some really nice people helped me out when I first started and even invited me to their clan. I gave them like a third of all the resources I had, which granted wasn’t much and they dropped me as I guess it wasn’t enough after about a week. I really don’t know what I did wrong and didn’t leech too bad, lol. Now I’m clan-less which sucks for getting some resources. I would have given them plat if that helped, but couldn’t find a way. 
 

All that to say, when I started, I joined a higher level mission and it was awesome seeing the advanced players rip through everything. I was curious what that prompt I thought was mercy, but was actually to spawn lich which I didn’t see. There was so much going on I couldn’t see anything and have no idea what I did, so I ended up with a lich. It did bug me a lot at first, but he has a good sense of humor, so I’m learning to live with him on earth. I even considered restarting the whole thing by deleting my account to get rid of it. I would have also paid decent cash to have it gone as I’m a very casual player and don’t need the added stress of having it level to the point that I can never get rid of it. Hoping that one day I’ll have enough of a good build to do it. I can totally understand the OP’s concern though and agree they should have an easier way to get rid of it. There are so many other ways to be challenged in this game if you are an experienced player. The lich system does turn off some new people from the game. My $0.02

Edited by m_a_r_c_h_
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On 2021-09-05 at 7:45 AM, (PSN)FirstAidSprays said:

 myself in the shoes of a new player: having an enemy that yoinks many of my resources at the end of each mission through no fault of their own,

It's actually a ridiculously tiny amount of resources.

Once time I let my Kuva Litch alone for probably 4 months. Since Steve was like a "Dragons Hoard" in rewards if you kill them.

Let's just say it was less of a Dragons Horde and more like an Ant Hill. 

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