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Don't reset my active power if I fall off the map.


CrazyCatLad
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vor 5 Minuten schrieb (PSN)Madurai-Prime:

The culture of incompetence is from the players. A part of this game is valuing movement and having a modicum of precision with it. This is why there are parkour challenges and other movement challenges as the MR tests.

If you want to get a nuke ready with equinox and it's building up....don't fall in a pit and you will be rewarded.

Do you think an equinox should be able to fall in a pit 6 times and still hold on to a 400k maim?

What I think is that not falling down pits isn't hard. You guys need to understand that this isn't a major issue for other people. In other games all the people who think this is an issue of difficulty would be stuck at the second boss, thereby realize where they actually stand skill-wise and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Edited by Krankbert
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I don't mind being punished for falling off a cliff, though, if I was allowed to keep falling, I'd probably recover and void dash or wall hop to return. The invisible sky box resets are BS though, I really wish they would fix them so I didn't dissappear for doing a modified bullet jump vertically, that's just ridiculous.

For those frames that have ridiculous maintenance, like Gara or Harrow, I can just feel you pain. I hate maintenance frames though, so it wouldn't harm me as much as others. 

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1 minute ago, PublikDomain said:

Well, actually there is. The penalty isn't a penalty for everyone, so why penalize some frames and not others? If this penalty was intended to be a penalty, shouldn't it affect all players equally? But it doesn't.

If you don't use a frame that has one of the affected abilities, then there's no penalty. For example, I'm a Khora main and none of my abilities are affected. This penalty does not exist for me. But if I use, say, Yareli, then falling OOB resets Merulina and Aquablades and I have to recast. Why is a frame like Yareli or Nezha or Gara or Rhino or whoever else (idk I don't really play these frames) penalized with a minor annoyance, while frames like mine aren't?

You're right, it should have an additional penalty just for those frames.

But it affecting frames unequally isn't a reason to remove it and if anything shows how minor the inconvenience is for players to be complaining about it. Seriously why should one of the few remaining shreds of inconvenience/punishments for player failings be removed?

 

And by your same logic taking damage is an unequal punishment when some frames can just have outright invulnerability or a one-press 95% DR ability. Should enemy damage be removed as well since it's such an unequal minor issue? After all why should some frames need to worry about healing or recovering shields when others just don't.

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9 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

What I think is that not falling down pits isn't hard. You guys need to understand that this isn't a major issue for other people. In other games all the people who think this is an issue of difficulty would be stuck at the second boss, thereby realize where they actually stand skill-wise and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Yes it isn't hard, which is why if someone has a channeled ability, they should be aware of that and not fall in a pit. 

This is in the conversation now, because a person that obviously falls in pits a lot wants his punishment removed instead of trying to aim their reticle better when they parkour.

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I actually find the ability reset helpful.... 

since it means I can remove active powers to recast them, such as to recast them with the buff from fissure missions, or if I wanted a stronger crit buff with harrows 4, or if I did a support AoE and not every squad member got effected.

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1 minute ago, trst said:

You're right, it should have an additional penalty just for those frames.

But it affecting frames unequally isn't a reason to remove it and if anything shows how minor the inconvenience is for players to be complaining about it. Seriously why should one of the few remaining shreds of inconvenience/punishments for player failings be removed?

But if it's such a minor inconvenience then why defend it? It's not like Warframe is a platformer whose core gameplay is centered around not falling into holes. I guess we could add an equivalent minor inconvenience to other frames, too, but as others have pointed out the out-of-bounds areas are inconsistent and poorly managed so why build a system on top of that?

On the topic of inconveniences vs punishments, I think we can put negative effects on a scale going from inconvenience to punishment:

Inconvenience ←+———+———+———+———+→ Punishment

Inconveniences aren't punishments. They're so minor that they don't matter, they're just a little annoying. They don't prevent or deter unwanted behaviour. So get rid of them if they don't do anything productive.

Punishments are major and do matter, and do deter unwanted behaviour. They're important and should be kept, even if people don't like them.

The out of bounds penalty isn't much of a punishment, and at best it's a minor inconvenience. If it were a punishment, then what behaviour would it seek to deter? Exploring the map? Using parkour? It's unnecessary.

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25 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

But if it's such a minor inconvenience then why defend it? It's not like Warframe is a platformer whose core gameplay is centered around not falling into holes. I guess we could add an equivalent minor inconvenience to other frames, too, but as others have pointed out the out-of-bounds areas are inconsistent and poorly managed so why build a system on top of that?

On the topic of inconveniences vs punishments, I think we can put negative effects on a scale going from inconvenience to punishment:

Inconvenience ←+———+———+———+———+→ Punishment

Inconveniences aren't punishments. They're so minor that they don't matter, they're just a little annoying. They don't prevent or deter unwanted behaviour. So get rid of them if they don't do anything productive.

Punishments are major and do matter, and do deter unwanted behaviour. They're important and should be kept, even if people don't like them.

The out of bounds penalty isn't much of a punishment, and at best it's a minor inconvenience. If it were a punishment, then what behaviour would it seek to deter? Exploring the map? Using parkour? It's unnecessary.

Because, again, it's one of the few remaining shreds of it in the game. It's not a good thing how much the game lacks any level of challenge or even expectations of the player other than farm and equip and equip it. To remove something even as minor as this is just furthering the game into a bad direction.

As far as what voiding out qualifies as (aside from preventing you from just going out of bounds) it's a stage hazard. It has the same purpose as arc traps, Grineer sensor bars, gas city door scanners, and Corpus door lasers: as an obstacle the player is expected to avoid . These are also just as minor and all the same have no reason to be removed.

Also arguing inconvenience vs punishment means nothing here anyways. As everything the game can do can be made nonexistent with any half a thought going into a build. Again taking damage is just as much of an inconvenience and can also be ignored entirely so why shouldn't it be removed under the same reason the void-out penalty should?

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41 minutes ago, trst said:

Because, again, it's one of the few remaining shreds of it in the game. It's not a good thing how much the game lacks any level of challenge or even expectations of the player other than farm and equip and equip it. To remove something even as minor as this is just furthering the game into a bad direction.

As far as what voiding out qualifies as (aside from preventing you from just going out of bounds) it's a stage hazard. It has the same purpose as arc traps, Grineer sensor bars, gas city door scanners, and Corpus door lasers: as an obstacle the player is expected to avoid . These are also just as minor and all the same have no reason to be removed.

Also arguing inconvenience vs punishment means nothing here anyways. As everything the game can do can be made nonexistent with any half a thought going into a build. Again taking damage is just as much of an inconvenience and can also be ignored entirely so why shouldn't it be removed under the same reason the void-out penalty should?

I think instead of clinging to the shreds that don't matter, if we want challenge we should focus on adding mechanics that actually provide a challenge. Not falling out of bounds isn't a challenge, it's just a minor inconvenience that sometimes happens. And, unlike the stage hazards you bring up, it's never been treated with that kind of weight and only has a penalty for some players. If it were intended to be a real stage hazard, wouldn't it deal damage or have some significant negative effect like all these other traps you're expected to avoid? It could be brought up to the same level, sure, but it isn't being treated that way now so the two aren't really comparable.

And I didn't reply to the "taking damage" thing because it's not my argument, but if you really want to talk about it we can. Taking damage is a punishment for not moving in combat or for overextending. This is important, and should be kept even if people don't like it. And if there are ways to remove this punishment, then it's not damage that should be removed - it's the mechanics allowing players to avoid it. Losing a buff when going out of bounds isn't a punishment. What would it be punishing, parkour and exploration? Those are things to encourage, not discourage.

Going out of bounds is an inconvenience, and only in some cases, and if it were a punishment it'd be punishing wanted behaviour. Plus its really inconsistent, as others have pointed out. So it's not worth defending like it's some core tenet of Warframe's gameplay design, it's a minor inconvenience and nothing more and it'd be fine if it were removed.

Edited by PublikDomain
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vor 55 Minuten schrieb trst:

Also arguing inconvenience vs punishment means nothing here anyways. As everything the game can do can be made nonexistent with any half a thought going into a build. Again taking damage is just as much of an inconvenience and can also be ignored entirely so why shouldn't it be removed under the same reason the void-out penalty should?

Quite frankly, I've never even once considered that this might be an intentional penalty and not an artifact of how they chose to implement the respawn mechanism, and every post where you insist that falling down pits is a noteworthy source of difficulty in this game only makes you look worse.

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Just now, Krankbert said:

Quite frankly, I've never even once considered that this might be an intentional penalty and not an artifact of how they chose to implement the respawn mechanism, and every post where you insist that falling down pits is a noteworthy source of difficulty in this game only makes you look worse.

I would not be surprised in the least if the out of bounds teleport was really just a /unstuck.

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14 hours ago, Jaysus41 said:

History lesson time. Way back in the day you could void out and still have your active powers not reset. This was an intentional change because at the time there was a bug with Banshee where you could jump OoB while Sound Quake was active and the end result was you could move around while it was still active (Sound Quake is supposed to root you in place for the duration if you didn't already know) DE couldn't figure out how to fix the Sound Quake bug so they did this instead and made it universal to head off any other potential bugs that could arise from going OoB

Personally I think this should go up for a review, it's been long enough. There are things far more powerful nowadays than a mobile Sound Quake.

Quoting myself because obviously people didn't read it first time around. Losing powers after going OoB is not and never was about "challenge" It was a Ham-fisted attempt at bugfixing during Beta

Here's a video showing what that Sound Quake bug looked like

Spoiler

 

Honestly, the idea that going OoB and losing active powers has anything to do with "challenge" is hilarious at best and dishonest at worst. You kids crack me up sometimes.

2yofSgv.gif

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On 2021-09-05 at 10:56 PM, Corvid said:

Agreed. Making it so that open-air ceilings universally have invisible walls instead of reset zones would be a good start.

Again, why do you assume it's from the Engine, and not deliberate?

That’s easy, because it’s one of the worst ass backwards intentional things you could put in a game. I don’t think DE is that dumb to put this idea on a board say yes that’s great! Pay some one to program it into a game. No DE has flaws but they are not that dumb.

 

Steve: Hey got this idea for movement.

Geoff: Yes?

Steve: Well you know how players sometimes miss a step and fall?

Geoff: Sure. Are we putting in fall damage?

Steve: No!

Geoff: Ok then what?

Steve: How about when they fall they lose powers?

Geoff: Like a nullifies bubble?

Steve: Yes!

Geoff: that does not make a lot of sense...

Steve: Kkk how about if they fall in the playable zone nothing happens, but if they fall out of the map BAM! Powers off.

 

Geoff: PERFECT! Now that makes sense!

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On 2021-09-05 at 11:54 PM, Hypernaut1 said:

Don't fall in pits. That's the entire point. 

You may as well ask them to remove pits all together and give us invisible barriers. No? Sounds ridiculous right?

I would actually sign up for that, but for "ceiling pits". It's incredibly annoying as Nova to use a portal for vertical movement that reaches the visible ceiling or below, yet turns out to go slightly beyond the invisible ceiling pit and triggers the fall respawn. If I overshoot the extraction platform and portal over the water, fair enough, but too close to the ceiling when portaling to a corridor up high? Ugh.

Edited by FishMcCool
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6 hours ago, BDMblue said:

That’s easy, because it’s one of the worst ass backwards intentional things you could put in a game.

A penalty for failure?

Because that's all it is. If you end up in a reset zone, you messed up. Most games that feature parkour/platforming will have a penalty for falling out of bounds. Warframe's is one of the most lenient ones I've encountered.

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On 2021-09-06 at 5:47 PM, BiancaRoughfin said:

Really? Precious Seconds? You cant stand 3~5 seconds animation of the player being sent back to the last solid surface they were in without a tantrum?

I can... the time loss is not the Consequence this topic is about... its the Resetting of Abilities we take issue with...

On 2021-09-06 at 5:47 PM, BiancaRoughfin said:

This isnt a Speed run game, no one is getting any advantage or score for finishing a mission the fastest

I never said it was... :O but you wrong, you actually do get an advantage by finishing the mission the fastest, the adavantage being you can start the next mission sooner :P

On 2021-09-06 at 5:47 PM, BiancaRoughfin said:

I would love seeing you complain if you had the 4 Dragon key effects active on you for 10 seconds after dropping a hole.

Ive worn all 4 keys for an entire mission.... if thats the price to pay to keep my Abilities active then I think I manage for 10 seconds... depends on the situation though...

On 2021-09-06 at 6:12 PM, Joezone619 said:

They'll need to add Opt-out to a lot of buffs if they were to remove the out of bounds reset, TBH wisp is half the reason i do this.

All the Garuda Mains Nod Firmly...

On 2021-09-06 at 2:33 PM, Hypernaut1 said:

To me, this of a perfect example of a "make Warframe easier" slippery slope. I remember when arc traps could kill a player. Back then, NO ONE was thinking about pit fall penalties being an issue because door traps could mean death if you were rushing. DE reduced their damage to almost nothing, and a host of other nerfs to things since then. Now we're at a point where resetting an ability after falling out of bounds is making people uncomfortable

To be honest with you, Im still not happy with Arc Traps, specifically how with its difficult to tell if the door Im about to Ninja Dash through gives no indication that its been rigged with a trap (Honestly I take issue with Warframe's Level design as a whole but thats a whole other thread)... it would be nice if there was some indicator that alerted me to the trap so that I can just combat roll through them for Infinite Poise.

On 2021-09-06 at 2:33 PM, Hypernaut1 said:

This isn't QoL. It's a request to simplify the gameplay even more.

Thats good isnt it ? if Complexity is added just for Complexity's Sake then naturally most player's are going to want it removed.

On 2021-09-06 at 2:33 PM, Hypernaut1 said:

And no, I don't recognize being reset to your last position as a true penalty. It should be a loss of shields at the least.

Havne't Shields suffered enough 😶 ?

On 2021-09-06 at 7:19 PM, Krankbert said:

When you think condescension is an argument.

In the interest of moving things forward I try to filter out the condescension if I can :)

 

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2 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Thats good isnt it ? if Complexity is added just for Complexity's Sake then naturally most player's are going to want it removed.

 

 

How are pit penalties "complex"??? You fall in, you get penalized. 

Edited by Hypernaut1
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I also like how we are playing as semi-immortal demi god Warframes that can take on entire armies singlehandedly and can face any threat in the solar system and come out on top but if your foot enters a puddle on PoE then you get desynched. Time to remove that as well.

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On 2021-09-05 at 3:01 PM, NecroPed said:

It bothers me because it's not always clear what is a reset pit

This is my only issue with the mechanic. Some places, especially on the Infested tilesets have really shallow out-of-bounds areas that look like they should totally be in-bound. You've literally got a gap in a metal walkway, with some infested mesh making a whole damn bridge literally like 1 foot below it, but nope, that's outside the map, you just have to jump it. 

 

Other than that, I agree that falling out of bounds should have consequences. I think death is obviously too extreme and would just make the game worse, but I think "it slows you down, that's enough of a penalty" is also just silliness. I think as it exists in the game currently is a happy medium, where your mission isn't ruined if you fall in most of the time, but you're going to have to be careful in tougher missions. If you're fighting level 3000 enemies and having your abilities cancelled and being stuck on the ground for half a second is going to get you killed, well then I don't think it's unreasonable to expect you to stay on the map given that you're such a talented player. In these situations, you shouldn't be allowed to survive for free because you're cheesing Gloom's 95% slow with literally any other CC in the game to make enemies unable to move. I don't think forcing you to stay on the map is asking too much, and it adds some kind of, dare I say, skill check to the game.

 

 

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20 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Pretty Much....

Considering Warframes are touted as "space ninjas" - that statement is implied by their very existence. I still struggle to see the reason players shouldn't be in some way penalized for basically "falling off the map", even better that we only get this slap on the wrist instead of instant death. I admit some of the teleport volumes are either badly placed or in some cases simply nonsensical, but that's an exception to the rule and by far not the rule itself.

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3 hours ago, iPathos said:

I still struggle to see the reason players shouldn't be in some way penalized for basically "falling off the map", even better that we only get this slap on the wrist instead of instant death.

That's the thing... There's already a penalty And that penalty affects everyone equally.... adding Ability reset on top of that just makes things Lob Sided...

 

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