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Revenant & Caliban


ScytodiDaedalus
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After a small look on the wiki I came across the upcoming Warframe entry, which was actually shown about a month ago in TennoCon 2021 in the art panel, apparently nicknamed "Caliban". I just wish to say... really? Another Sentient-themed Warframe?

I know one of the first answers that will show up, such as "Well, Revenant is an Eidolon-Sentient type of Warframe and Caliban is going to be a Warframe that is Warframe-Sentient hybrid, so it's fine.", so He is going to be only 50% Sentient? What's next? an Infested-Void Warframe?

Now, before going onto Revenant and the arguable failure of the Sentient/Eidolon/Vampire theme originally planned with abilities that were criticized endlessly due to trying to be something that would never fit and having tons of mixed feedback, the problem I want to mention is the fact that Warframe themes are at the least starting to clash or at the worst being recycled due to a lack of creativity and imagination.
A example would be Limbo, Harrow & Xaku having their abilities (or atleast the quests) mention the Void as a particular source for either their power or even their existence, while technically all Warframes are powered in some form by the Tenno, which basically are all Void energy at this point.
We also have Protea & Vauban which are based on the Gadget/Engineer thematic.
Hydroid & Yareli being in the same element(despite not having an actual damage type).

Now, while these examples are perhaps a peculiar similarity, I think the case with the upcoming Caliban is going to be a complete clash of the themes.

First, let's define exactly what is Revenant lorewise: "Once the warden of the plains, tasked with protecting the Unum's tower and striking down the ghostly Eidolon forms that rose from the depths every night. Night after night, he cut them down. Not allowing them to take form. Then one night, he disappeared, lost… forever."
It was only after he disappeared that he was "tainted" by the "Eidolon energy", so by this definition, originally before this energy took over, he was 100% Sentient 0% Eidolon, after this event... well nothing sentient really left him and the "body" is just about complete so... he's technically still 100% Sentient and tainted, mostly his left side, so atleast 50% Eidolon?

Now, if we take a look at Caliban's artwork:

Same body parts are virtually intact, then the head, chest and most of the left side of the body are "tainted", changed, morphed... same body parts as Revenant... what a coincidence.
So what's the proportions? He's 50% Warframe 50% Sentient? See where I'm getting?

Again I insist, this is going to be a total clash in theme adding a second Warframe themed more or less in the Sentient part. Anyone else thinks how odd it would be to have a Warframe more or less "infested-looking" than Nidus?

Anyhow, back to how Revenant as a Warframe wasn't a particular success (which adds to my thought that they shouldn't really try it again), perhaps we could go onto the details that generate discontent to many players, as mentioned in a lot of threads in the Forums countless times, specially by someone whose username starts with G... *COUGH*.

Spoiler

I will avoid giving suggestions and mostly point it their flaws, issues and details mostly linked to complaints.

Enthrall: The most discussed ability on regards with the Vampire theme and how it should be changed/buffed/removed/deleted or like many will simply say "replaced with Helminth".

-One can kill Thralls easily breaking the infection chain.
-Allies can kill Thralls before finishing the castin animation.
-Pillars have very short range.
-Pillar projectiles also have a short range.
-Pillars get destroyed by 4.

Mesmer Skin: One of the most controversial an debated abilities, considered the best and worst by players with very opposite views.

-Hard to replenish with Reave when allies kill everything, so no thralls (it's easier to recast, honestly)
-There's no real notification to when a charge is lost and an enemy is stunned.
-Blocks all damage, preventing the synergy with Danse Macabre's damage absorption.
-Blocks the passive from ever triggering.

Reave: Considered a busted ability and also useless to replenish charges, in my honest opinion it's a fun mobility ability regardless.

-Hard to replensih Mesmer Skin when allies kill everything.
-Cast time is slightly slow.
-What's the point of replenishing health or shields when you're basically immune 100% of the time?
-You can't restore shields from shieldless targets.
-Damage is miserable on non-thralled targets.

Danse Macabre: At this point, his entire kit is regarded both terrible and amazing, however, I will say that Danse Macabre's main issue resides in what plagues basically 90% of direct damage dealing abilities, enemy scaling and the lack of some form of damage scaling, but this is an entirely different topic,.

-Easily kills Thralls, ruining the Enthrall chain.
-Annihilates Pillars, completely ruining the Enthrall chain.
-It's damage absorption component is nullified by Mesmer Skin.

I'm sure there's a lot more issues that have been mentioned but I'll leave it at that.

One very important thing I'll say now I bring Revenant's issues up again: I just wish to ask DE before even attempting a potential copy of a Warframe that is rather underused comparatively, is that you update existing Warframes that are dying for updates instead of constantly releasing more & more, let me give you a candidate: NYX.

This said, also don't forget that the themes should always avoid clashing lorewise with the Prime versions of the Warframes and due to this, the brand new Warframes we have released are, atleast lorewise, an inferior or lower grade version of the Prime Warframes made by the Orokin, unless suddenly DE decides it stops being the case, so far all can have a potential explanation for the "planned" design all Warframes have, I hope this remains as it is.

Thank you very much for taking the time to read. Nope, no TL;DR.

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Revenant was a Warframe nicknamed Warden before he fell into the Eidolon waters and had Eidolon spectral energy infused into him, wearing his body like a "mask". We don't actually know if he was made with Sentient parts as a unique Warframe model.

Caliban is supposedly made of partially Sentient parts fused into a Warframe. The speculation is that either Erra or Ballas will perfect the Amalgamation process in The New War to convert captured denizens of Sol into Sentient hybrids, with Warframe/Sentient hybrids as their latest success.

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4 hours ago, ScytodiDaedalus said:

One very important thing I'll say now I bring Revenant's issues up again: I just wish to ask DE before even attempting a potential copy of a Warframe that is rather underused comparatively, is that you update existing Warframes that are dying for updates instead of constantly releasing more & more, let me give you a candidate: NYX.

Agreed.  I'm not going to get into why I think Nyx is, over all, decent.  But I do wish that DE would spend more time polishing existing content.  If it has to be monetized, then drop a cosmetic bundle for the frame/area/weapon being reworked or polished.

 

That said, I don't have issues with frames sharing themes.  In general, I think the community gets too precious about themes and what they're supposed to mean.  It's absurd.  My problem with Yareli, for instance, isn't that she's watery like Hydroid.  It's that she doesn't have what it takes to be a good frame.

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From what I understood. Eidolons cannot amalgomate anyone since they are basically mindless monsters, Revenant's abilities were mostly an accident of him falling into the lake and soaking in Eidolon juices. Caliban, though, is the result of a deliberate process by Ballas or the such to create a Warframe that's connected to the sentient hivemind. I have a hitch that we're going to get a more detailed explanation in the New War quest. I'm not sure how much of the story will be dedicated to Caliban, but I'm almost sure it will be a significant plot point. 

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Revenant was a series of bad choices and mistakes

Caliban is a chance to try again and not make the same mistakes that lead to Revenant being the joke of a Warframe that he is.

Honestly that seems to be the trend with the 2021 frames.

Oh Valkyrs bad? We’ll just make Sevagoth who’s 4 is just a better version of her.

Hydroids bad? We’ll release a water waifu. Granted Yareli herself is very bad.

Revenants bad? Just release a proper Sentient themed frame who won’t have an unrelated theme added to them and then be forced to try and turn those unrelated abilities into vaguely Eidolon themed abilities.

I don’t necessarily agree with this approach, but hey if we get an actually Sentient themed Warframe out of it I’m not gonna argue.

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Booo bow dare they do another sentient themed warframe to coincide with the massive sentient themed content. Booooooo hisssss burn them at the stake.

In all honesty i would prefer they fic the existing content before adding new stuff but this is DE we are talking about. Asking them to polish the game is like asking the sun to stop shining. Aint gonna happen. Just go with the flow. No one is making us use the new content. Caliban, like 99% of all new warframes, will end up in the pile people rarely use because there are already multiple solutions to every kind of problem available to us.

Also, at least we can anticipate caliban not being yareli levels of useless. I dont think they can hit that low again even if they try.

Edited by Leqesai
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It is inevitable that basic themes will clash especially with... 47? Warframes.

it's just bound to happen the thing DE needs to do though is transforming the basic idea into something different hence why we can have Yareli and Hydroid or Sevagoth and Nekros, They share a similar theme but they're still completely different

 

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What's the purposeof this thread, honestly? Devs won't read you here and if they did, they probably will dismiss your rant because it's full of madeup stuff, like

Quote

"so by this definition, originally before this energy took over, he was 100% Sentient 0% Eidolon, after this event... well nothing sentient really left him and the "body" is just about complete so... he's technically still 100% Sentient and tainted, mostly his left side, so atleast 50% Eidolon?"

Write something more objective in feedback, there is even a pinned post on how to provide useful feedback:

__

Now since this is General Discussion, I'll state my opinion: IDGAF. Peace.

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12 hours ago, ScytodiDaedalus said:

A example would be Limbo, Harrow & Xaku having their abilities (or atleast the quests) mention the Void as a particular source for either their power or even their existence

Bad example

Limbo uses the Rift, not the Void. I know the words are synonyms, but the dimensions are completely different: the Void is the afterlife, while the Rift is a pocket dimension that has nothing to do with the Void

Harrow's quest might have a lot to do with the Void, but Harrow himself is a tech-based Warframe just like Frost, Trinity, etc. That's why none of his abilities deal Void damage or other Void-related buffs

Xaku is the inverse: Xaku actually deals Void damage, but his quest deals with the Orokin and the Infested and a bunch of tech-relics that never actually enter or draw upon the Void

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7 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Bad example

Not.
I'm well aware that the Rift and the Void are different things, however the Void is mentioned in Limbo's abilities and even the quest.

Cataclysm Ability Description: "A violent blast of void energy tears open a pocket of rift plane which can sustain itself for a short period before collapsing in another lethal blast."

Dialogue of Ordis during the quest: "Now it's becoming clear. Could it be that there's a plane between our normal plane and the void? A space between space, a rift? A rift that this Limbo could control? Oh and I've marked your navigation console. I think you'll be quite pleased with what you find there." "Just as I suspected, another theorem. Limbo's formula for inverting the entropic mass of void quantum is downright naughty. I want more. Operator, please hurry, this story is getting quite good."

While it isn't exactly the same Limbo's rift derives from the void in one way or another.

7 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Harrow's quest might have a lot to do with the Void, but Harrow himself is a tech-based Warframe just like Frost, Trinity, etc. That's why none of his abilities deal Void damage or other Void-related buff

Harrow's description: "Always prepared to sacrifice. This monastic Warframe uses the Void to bolster allies' defenses and amplify their lethality."
In Harrow's Profile: "Dedicated to the Void, he harnesses its awesome power." "Harrow is suffragan to the Void. Will you believe, Tenno?".

What exactly is a tech-based Warframe anyway? I'm well aware all Warframes were designed due to a particular form of Infestation/Helminth strain, techno-organic parasites that turned individuals into what we know as Warframes, easily with some tech added to augment them at the best possible, by design, no other way an infestation would magically give almost all Warframes shields and other "devices".

The fact he has no Void damage or no damage at all is no excuse to say that he doesn't have a "theme" to it. while the Void could be of a Priest, or some type of Acolyte, the "energy" that he harnesses is, as put by developers and in the quest, the Void.
 

7 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Xaku is the inverse: Xaku actually deals Void damage, but his quest deals with the Orokin and the Infested and a bunch of tech-relics that never actually enter or draw upon the Void

Xaku's description: "Neither he nor she, Xaku is a composite... a Warframe assembly made of others lost in the early Entrati Void expeditions. Xaku has mastered this power of the Void to terrify and bewilder their adversaries."

I won't put all the Ability descriptions that mention it, but Xaku's abilities all are directly related to the Void, the predominant element of the entire kit.

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13 hours ago, (NSW)Symberzite said:

From what I understood. Eidolons cannot amalgomate anyone since they are basically mindless monsters, Revenant's abilities were mostly an accident of him falling into the lake and soaking in Eidolon juices. Caliban, though, is the result of a deliberate process by Ballas or the such to create a Warframe that's connected to the sentient hivemind. I have a hitch that we're going to get a more detailed explanation in the New War quest. I'm not sure how much of the story will be dedicated to Caliban, but I'm almost sure it will be a significant plot point. 

It's really hard to stick to the Warframe lore knowing there's going to be Prime Warframes that are the "originals" arguably discarding a lot of the story or the potential fact a Warframe got corrupted or afflicted with something that is afflicting other enemies.

Now my theory behind Revenant being able to harness the power of the Eidolon is technically by design.
First, the only enemies that can harness or be afflicted by the power of the Eidolon are sentient, the reason there's undead sentients reassembled with debris is because of the remains of the large sentient destroyed by Gara in PoE and whatnot.
So, Revenant is in design Sentient and is able to harness the Eidolon power as is planned.

How does this fit with a potential Revenant Prime? Now we can link this to the Temple Kuva that allowed the sentient to restore their power to reproduce, and probably rise again after being destroyed and fragmented, which happened to be all around the plains where the "Warden" got "afflicted" by remains of the Temple Kuva.
I think in times of the Orokin, when Prime Warframes were at their possible peak, it was comparatively easier to get hold of Temple Kuva to "infuse" Revenant Prime and allow such particular abilities and energies.

Anyhow, that's just pure theory.

Now Caliban being a deliberate attempt to "connect" to the sentient Hivemind? Sounds sketchy at best, they would need to give a seriously solid and good explanation to that, or whatever is the reason behind this new design.

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Hmm , I both agree and disagree with some of the points made in the OP ,

I do wish DE kept thematic consistency and polish between lore , aesthetics and ability kit when releasing frames which I have always criticised them for.

However I can't really see a problem with releasing more frames (maybe at a lesser frequency to better manage existing content would be better) that do have similar themes but different playstyles.

Revenants theme is kinda skewed but it was intended to contain and control sentients on the plains , his abilities do kinda do that with a minor stretch of the imagination. Thrall is to keep them docile , Mesmer skin is to pacify the few that are violent , reave is to weaken those that are defiant and the danse is to punish those that are rebelious.

Being exposed to sentient energy defintely affected the original but his core remains that of the warden.

Edited by 0_The_F00l
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vor 21 Stunden schrieb ScytodiDaedalus:

the problem I want to mention is the fact that Warframe themes are at the least starting to clash or at the worst being recycled due to a lack of creativity and imagination.

Dear god, you are overly sensitive.

You can also argue, that Garuda and Excalubur are the same theme, because their theme is mainly about sharp, pointy stuff.

Or every Frames theme is the same, because they mainly use shooty-stuff!

I think with 40+ characters it's perfectly fine to have overlapping points. I look at it less as recycling and more as a broadening of a concept.

Even lorewise this makes sense, if people developing Warframes revisit known concepts.

You can do more with fire, than cooking food, to name a realife example.

I never heared somebody complain about a car, because a combustion engine uses fire and thus is recycling of cooking.

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4 hours ago, ScytodiDaedalus said:

however the Void is mentioned in Limbo's abilities and even the quest.

Cataclysm Ability Description: "A violent blast of void energy

This monastic Warframe uses the Void
In Harrow's Profile: "Dedicated to the Void
Harrow is suffragan to the Void

What exactly is a tech-based Warframe anyway?

What you're missing, is that a lot of Warframe was being rewritten during the Second Dream/War Within/Sacrifice trilogy. Post-rewrite, most Warframes don't actually use Void energy directly. Warframes are technology. Everything from Nyx's Mind Control, to Vauban's Tesla, to Yareli's and Hydroid's waves, and even including Limbo's dimension-hopping and Harrow's chains? They are all technology under the new lore, not Void magic

It wasn't something the devs pulled out of their arse either, it was also done to explain why Stalker has the Dispel ability: he's using a stolen Myrmidon gauntlet (from the Ivara Leverian). And also why Zanuka Harvester can steal "your powers" during the "Captured by Zanuka Harvester" mission (which in the past I thought was the dumbest thing ever): because "your powers" are only usable with tech components. AND this explains why Sentients can build up resistance to your Warframe powers (yes, that's actually in the game code): because your powers aren't Void energy anymore, they're tech, which Sentients can develop resistance to

Excalibur Umbra and Xaku are the exceptions to the new rules, they DO channel Void energy directly, and Sentients can NOT build resistance to them (though Stalker can still Dispel them, that Myrmidon gauntlet does wonders)

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Maybe we should wait until we have any concrete information on how his abilities are going to work and what role he is going to play in the New War (which we also don't have that many concrete details on yet) before trying to find issues in his theme?

Same goes for his visual presentation, we only have a colorless concept sketch of him, we don't know what color and materials will be used for him and how it will function/look in a 3d environment.

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21 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

I'm not going to get into why I think Nyx is, over all, decent.  But I do wish that DE would spend more time polishing existing content.

I'll bet we're going to see a drastic reduction to reworks for old frames, and there was already not a lot going on there.  They recently said that going back and polishing and reworking old content doesn't generate new players or seem to effect player retention so there's no point in them spending any time on it.  

What this says to me is that if it doesn't increase their bottom line they aren't going to fix, change, polish or rework a single thing.  The only thing along those lines that we're going to get is immediate changes to content after it drops if there's enough complaints, like with Yareli, and even those changes are so tone deaf and lackluster that they might as well not be happening.

Crappy reward and drop tables, unengaging mission types, frames that are either outright bad or have been power crept severely, all going to just stay the way they are.

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1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

What you're missing, is that a lot of Warframe was being rewritten during the Second Dream/War Within/Sacrifice trilogy. Post-rewrite, most Warframes don't actually use Void energy directly. Warframes are technology. Everything from Nyx's Mind Control, to Vauban's Tesla, to Yareli's and Hydroid's waves, and even including Limbo's dimension-hopping and Harrow's chains? They are all technology under the new lore, not Void magic

It wasn't something the devs pulled out of their arse either, it was also done to explain why Stalker has the Dispel ability: he's using a stolen Myrmidon gauntlet (from the Ivara Leverian). And also why Zanuka Harvester can steal "your powers" during the "Captured by Zanuka Harvester" mission (which in the past I thought was the dumbest thing ever): because "your powers" are only usable with tech components. AND this explains why Sentients can build up resistance to your Warframe powers (yes, that's actually in the game code): because your powers aren't Void energy anymore, they're tech, which Sentients can develop resistance to

Excalibur Umbra and Xaku are the exceptions to the new rules, they DO channel Void energy directly, and Sentients can NOT build resistance to them (though Stalker can still Dispel them, that Myrmidon gauntlet does wonders)

I'd be curious to see a source on all that.

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this is why I don't put stock into hyping up warframes before release: sure, they can look good and have a cool theme, but unless they're kit is strong, they will never live up to the hype. we are at a point now where a clash of themes are inevitable, and that's something I can deal with, but I do wish that DE would go back to older frames and rework them: sure, maybe it won't make DE revenue, but know what it will give DE? loyalty from the fanbase, and the positive PR that comes from it. that's something you can't put a price on. you can make a lot more money from a happy consumer than one who feels like they're being strung along, because eventually, they will break free of that string and leave, and might not return.

either way, I like revenant despite the challenges he may present in regards to lore, all I ask of Caliban is to at least not be utterly useless and somewhat fun to play as. bonus points if he gets his own Vomvalyst/Brachiolyst companion, that'd be neat IMO.

 

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7 hours ago, ScytodiDaedalus said:

It's really hard to stick to the Warframe lore knowing there's going to be Prime Warframes that are the "originals" arguably discarding a lot of the story or the potential fact a Warframe got corrupted or afflicted with something that is afflicting other enemies.

It's really not if you recognize that the vast majority of Warframe lore is about the Prime Warframes, not the bootleg non-Primes. Gara Prime destroyed the sentient, Revenant Prime was once Warden Prime, et cetera. This is not just a theory, mind you. Gara's Prime Trailer makes it all but obvious.

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On 2021-09-06 at 11:21 AM, ScytodiDaedalus said:

It was only after he disappeared that he was "tainted" by the "Eidolon energy", so by this definition, originally before this energy took over, he was 100% Sentient 0% Eidolon, after this event... well nothing sentient really left him and the "body" is just about complete so... he's technically still 100% Sentient and tainted, mostly his left side, so atleast 50% Eidolon?

 

I'm really not sure how you got to those conclussions. Revenant has never been sentient, his connection to sentients starts and ends with the eidolons of earth. He is and will always be a frame that somehow got altered by some energy that is part of the eidolons and the reason they also came to unlife. Eidolons are very specific sentient remnants tied to the dead sentient that attacked earth. They arent the sentient, they are 3 very very very small fragments of the whole thing. A theory why they returned to unlife is the unum bomb Gara used to kill the sentient attacking the plains, and that energy that was left and poluted the plains is part of the lakes, which is also where the edolons emerge from at night and submerge in at daybreak. Revenant also got lost in the waters of the plains when he sacrificed himself, so likely also exposed to the exact same energy, which made him go on even after his operator was long gone.

Caliban will be part sentient and part frame. I expect it will have some tie in with Ballas 3.0 in The New War. Possibly a new breed of frames designed and later primed by him, either to hunt the tenno or help them fight the sentient invasion.

3 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Excalibur Umbra and Xaku are the exceptions to the new rules, they DO channel Void energy directly, and Sentients can NOT build resistance to them (though Stalker can still Dispel them, that Myrmidon gauntlet does wonders)

Uhm the whole Deimos story pretty much tells us that all frames are reliant on the heart since that is where all the energy comes from. All frames use the void to materialize whatever it is they do. Umbra and Xaku simply utilizes it in its raw form, Umbra with his howl and the Xaku's with most of their skills. Gara and Frost still uses the void just as much in order to shape the class and ice from nothing, which is also why nullifiers, scrambus, bursa and other units can dispell skills in different ways. They remove the void that binds or powers it.

edit: And regarding Zanuka, it is made from several different frames, so it "stealing" skill is potentially not a thing but more that it mimics what it fights. It is far more limited than a frame too, so it is possible it is made with a different power source aswell and not the void. Alad is afterall trying to build his own frames and the zanuka is the result of that. That doesnt mean the frames are purely technological, although as they say, magic is only science we do not yet understand. And since the void is tied to space, it likely has a scientific explaination.

Edited by SneakyErvin
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2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Uhm the whole Deimos story pretty much tells us that all frames are reliant on the heart since that is where all the energy comes from. All frames use the void to materialize whatever it is they do. Umbra and Xaku simply utilizes it in its raw form, Umbra with his howl and the Xaku's with most of their skills.

I chose my words very carefully: 

5 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Excalibur Umbra and Xaku are the exceptions to the new rules, they DO channel Void energy directly,

"Directly", implying the other frames do need Void energy but in a less direct fashion. Most Warframes only use Void energy to interface with their Z-kids and to stave off Sentient influence -- which is what Necramechs also do. Necramechs are just tech.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

edit: And regarding Zanuka, it is made from several different frames, so it "stealing" skill is potentially not a thing but more that it mimics what it fights.

I wish I could agree with this, but the game just says Alad steals "your powers", and then you open a crate and Lotus tells you "You've found your powers." It's a stupid line, but that's the canon we have to work with

 

4 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

I'd be curious to see a source on all that.

Everything I typed, I took directly from the game. Ever since War Within, the game has made a very clear delineation between Void damage and all other sources of damage, while also exaggerating the powers and abilities of Orokin tech to explain how Warframe powers could work without directly channeling Void energy. Vauban's Bastille for example is a larger version of a Dax Orvius

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37 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

I chose my words very carefully: 

"Directly", implying the other frames do need Void energy but in a less direct fashion. Most Warframes only use Void energy to interface with their Z-kids and to stave off Sentient influence -- which is what Necramechs also do. Necramechs are just tech.

I wish I could agree with this, but the game just says Alad steals "your powers", and then you open a crate and Lotus tells you "You've found your powers." It's a stupid line, but that's the canon we have to work with

I dont think they use it more directly, they use it in a more raw way. But the same void energy goes into it, the end product is just different. Gara creates glass and crystal, the Xaku's releases the energy in pure form. Gara just changes it into something else based on how she is built.

And the way the frames are built also touches on the Alad thing. He steals our "power" by stealing the armament that results in what the frame can do with the void just as you implied. And when we find the power we really find whatever tech allows the void to be channeled into whatever thing the specific frame does. I havent done the recovery mission in a long long long long time but I cannot remember there is any mention of the harvester actually stealing our powers, just that we have lost the powers since we got captured. I agree with you that all frames are tech based, but that tech is just a lump of metal, flesh and circuits without the void.

Gara for instance doesnt carry with her tons of sand or glass boards, Ember doesnt carry gallons upon gallons of highly flammable mixtures with her, Yareli doesnt carry thousands of buckets of water, Hydroid doesnt have an invisible Kraken pet and so on. The tech simply allows the frames to manifest/create those things with void energy and if that energy gets interrupted it will all fall together into nothingness. Then you have frames that can control their own density and size with the void, like Titania, same thing with her though, if the void energy gets interrupted she is forced into her normal state. And that is what the sentients have now learned, to break the bond of dualism between operator and frame, since frames no longer live and can no longer self sustain their need for the void. Which is why the Orphixes shuts them down and why the far more low-tech mech still works.

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