Revenant & Caliban

[TARINunit9]

26 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I dont think they use it more directly, they use it in a more raw way. But the same void energy goes into it, the end product is just different. Gara creates glass and crystal, the Xaku's releases the energy in pure form. Gara just changes it into something else based on how she is built.

And the way the frames are built also touches on the Alad thing. He steals our "power" by stealing the armament that results in what the frame can do with the void just as you implied. And when we find the power we really find whatever tech allows the void to be channeled into whatever thing the specific frame does.

Feels like a different way of saying the same thing. Void energy as a battery, tech to actually use it

26 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I havent done the recovery mission in a long long long long time but I cannot remember there is any mention of the harvester actually stealing our powers, just that we have lost the powers since we got captured. 

"You've found your powers." Harvester rips them off you and stashes them in a crate just like your guns, so clearly they're physical tech

[Xantelian]

Vauban and Protea both have the same theme but have abilities that work completely differently to eachother. Vortex and Protea's 1 are nothing alike. Vauban has no dispenser and does not have a rewind ability. Their kits are completely different.

Same with Sevagoth and Nekros. Nekros uses his abilities to make the enemy do his bidding, Sevagoth uses his abilities to power himself and unleash his reaper form. They play differently while having a similar theme. 

Hydroid and Yareli are nothing alike besides "water-themed frame".

Again, Limbo and Xaku are nothing alike. Can Xaku lock down a whole chunk of the map and freeze all of those inside the void and regen energy while they are in there? Can they pop in and out of the void at will? No. The only similarities are "void-based". 

Plenty of frames have overlapping themes. That's just the nature of having 50+ base frames in the game. It is inevitable that we will see some similarities but as long as they're different enough then who cares? I have no doubts that Caliban will play differently to Revenant. If I'm wrong then feel free to come back to this comment and mock me.

 

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

10 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Everything I typed, I took directly from the game. Ever since War Within, the game has made a very clear delineation between Void damage and all other sources of damage, while also exaggerating the powers and abilities of Orokin tech to explain how Warframe powers could work without directly channeling Void energy. Vauban's Bastille for example is a larger version of a Dax Orvius

So there's no hard source for everything being tech and not void powers other than your own interpretation?  How's that heart factor in then?  No matter your frame you lose all powers during that quest.  If it was tech, you'd still have those powers.  If it was because it was affecting just our operator's connection to the void the tech would have still worked and we wouldn't have been able to still use our operators with the mechs.

[TARINunit9]

15 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

So there's no hard source for everything being tech and not void powers other than your own interpretation?  How's that heart factor in then?  No matter your frame you lose all powers during that quest.  If it was tech, you'd still have those powers.  If it was because it was affecting just our operator's connection to the void the tech would have still worked and we wouldn't have been able to still use our operators with the mechs.

SneakyErvin and I were talking about this and we actually found out we agreed on the general points: Warframes (and Mechs) use the Void as energy, that's why Sentients can't assimilate them, but very few of them channel it directly as Void damage. I don't see any contradictions there

This is also why Infested Mesa (Patient Zero) and Feral Chroma (New Strange) still use their powers without any Z-kids. They might still have some Void energy, but clearly it isn't their primary damage source, it's Orokin technology

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

4 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

SneakyErvin and I were talking about this and we actually found out we agreed on the general points: Warframes (and Mechs) use the Void as energy, that's why Sentients can't assimilate them, but very few of them channel it directly as Void damage. I don't see any contradictions there

This is also why Infested Mesa (Patient Zero) and Feral Chroma (New Strange) still use their powers without any Z-kids. They might still have some Void energy, but clearly it isn't their primary damage source, it's Orokin technology

Again though, this is all your interpretation and not an actual source.  You literally just said this particular bit comes from you and someone else in the forums.  You can't just state things as fact without a source that says the exact thing that you said.

[TARINunit9]

8 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

Again though, this is all your interpretation and not an actual source.  You literally just said this particular bit comes from you and someone else in the forums.  You can't just state things as fact without a source that says the exact thing that you said.

You want sources? Here's your sources:

• Sentients can assimilate technology (Excalibur Prime codex)
• Sentients can build damage resistance to mundane damage sources (Crewman Synthesis)
• Sentients can NOT build damage resistance to Void damage (game mechanics, Crewman Synthesis)
• Sentients CAN build damage resistance to all Warframe powers except Umbra's and Xaku's (game mechanics)
• Sentients and Orokin can both develop their own technology to disrupt Warframe powers (Orphix Venom intro movie, Ivara Leverian)
• Zanuka Harvester can rip out nodules on a Warframe that make powers completely uncastable. These nodules can be retrieved and reinstalled, similar to picking up a lost weapon off the ground (game mechanics)

There's my sources for why Warframe powers are tech-based, and why only Xaku and Umbra shoot Void energy at their targets

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

4 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

You want sources? Here's your sources:

• Sentients can assimilate technology (Excalibur Prime codex)
• Sentients can build damage resistance to mundane damage sources (Crewman Synthesis)
• Sentients can NOT build damage resistance to Void damage (game mechanics, Crewman Synthesis)
• Sentients CAN build damage resistance to all Warframe powers except Umbra's and Xaku's (game mechanics)
• Sentients and Orokin can both develop their own technology to disrupt Warframe powers (Orphix Venom intro movie, Ivara Leverian)
• Zanuka Harvester can rip out nodules on a Warframe that make powers completely uncastable. These nodules can be retrieved and reinstalled, similar to picking up a lost weapon off the ground (game mechanics)

There's my sources for why Warframe powers are tech-based, and why only Xaku and Umbra shoot Void energy at their targets

This is the section I'm taking the most umbrage with:

  

17 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

What you're missing, is that a lot of Warframe was being rewritten during the Second Dream/War Within/Sacrifice trilogy. Post-rewrite, most Warframes don't actually use Void energy directly. Warframes are technology. Everything from Nyx's Mind Control, to Vauban's Tesla, to Yareli's and Hydroid's waves, and even including Limbo's dimension-hopping and Harrow's chains? They are all technology under the new lore, not Void magic

None of your "sources" directly support that, only your personal interpretation of in-game mechanics.  In-game mechanics are notorious in many games, including this one, for not meshing directly to the lore and it is always hand-waived away with "It's for game balance and play mechanics" by both dev and game community alike.  The fact that you said in your reply to me before this one that warframes use the void to power themselves and therefor their abilities absolutely refutes you saying they don't use void energy directly.  You can't have it both ways.  

In any other game universe, using raw energy from some other realm to convert it into a fire attack is considered magic.  The fact that Sentients can adapt to elemental attacks isn't necessarily an indication that those elemental attacks are tech, because it's just as easily explained that a particular frame and how its internals function (which we don't know how that works.  The lack of facts there means neither one of us gets to be right.  The lack of knowledge there also discounts the point about Zanuka.  We straight up don't know what is being torn out or how it works.) only converts void energy into that particular element which is ineffective against Sentients.  If its converting void energy into fire or whatever that is still indeed Void magic and not just "tech".  It's just not Void damage because it's being converted.

I'm not even saying you're wrong.  I'm just saying you don't have a hard source that states what you're stating.  There's also the delineation between "tech" and "magic" that you made which is honestly a gray area.  

[TARINunit9]

4 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

None of your "sources" directly support that, only your personal interpretation of in-game mechanics.  In-game mechanics are notorious in many games, including this one, for not meshing directly to the lore and it is always hand-waived away with "It's for game balance and play mechanics" by both dev and game community alike. 

That makes sense for things that are deliberately abstracted, such as enemy level scaling. Not so much elemental damage, those are actually supposed to represent canon

6 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

The fact that you said in your reply to me before this one that warframes use the void to power themselves and therefor their abilities absolutely refutes you saying they don't use void energy directly.

No. No that's not what I said. I think you're the one trying to have it both ways: both demand I use sources, then assert that the game doesn't have enough sources that I could ever possibly be correct

9 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

In any other game universe, using raw energy from some other realm to convert it into a fire attack is considered magic.  The fact that Sentients can adapt to elemental attacks isn't necessarily an indication that those elemental attacks are tech, because it's just as easily explained that a particular frame and how its internals function (which we don't know how that works.  The lack of facts there means neither one of us gets to be right.  The lack of knowledge there also discounts the point about Zanuka.  We straight up don't know what is being torn out or how it works.) only converts void energy into that particular element which is ineffective against Sentients.  If its converting void energy into fire or whatever that is still indeed Void magic and not just "tech".  It's just not Void damage because it's being converted.

Let me explain my logic here:

Human beings in real life are powered by Adenosine 5'-triphosphate (ATP molecules). But when you punch something that's blunt trauma. Bullets, similarly, are powered by the explosive reaction of sulfur and potassium nitrate, but unless there is another incendiary compound in the bullet itself the bullet only deals high-velocity impact damage and hydrostatic shock, not incendiary damage

OK I'm going to get very angry and patronizing if I don't hurry this along, sorry in advance if I did that already

The point is, Warframes seem to use Void energy for a lot of their processes, most likely including self-sustenance, powering biomechanical computer systems, might even include bullet jumps. But Warframe powers are a weapon system. Trying to argue that it's all Void damage when it clearly doesn't deal Void damage. Orokin tech is definitely "magical" compared to real life (a fandom in-joke is "space magic") but a lot of these technologies that seem "magical" to real life are perfectly ordinary and mundane to the Orokin. Some is powered by the Void, some is not. But very little deals Void damage, only tech that explicitly shoots Void energy directly at the target, such as Xaku, is Void damage

 

That's what started this whole discussion. OP was claiming that Limbo and Xaku were basically the same, but that's not really true at all. Limbo and Harrow fall into the first category ("Some is powered by the Void") while Xaku falls into the third ("explicitly shoots Void energy directly at the target")

[Fallen77]

Oh come on, stop it with the theme police !

We have hydroid and yareli, vauban and protea, and everything is fine, they're different enough, the earth hasn't stopped spinning.

That idea of the big bad clash of themes is a non issue that you came up with, there is no clash. This is just an excuse to whine about the fact that you don't like the new frame's design, period.

Can't you just let the devs do whatever cool things they're inspired to make ? What does frowning everytime a theme is not 100% new even adds to the table ? Nothing apart restricting the creation process for no reason.

Also Revenant is fine, because one idiot made it his personnal idiotic crusade that to cry about him every single time he can, does not mean he's bad. He may not be the number one meta pick, but he has plenty to offer. (And don't get me the argument "but Reb called him a vampire frame in a devstream once". It was a stupid argument then and it's still a stupid argument nowadays.)

Also love your lore analysis. So he was a regular warframe before he got tainted by the eidolon juice, but somehow, for some reason, you came to the conclusion that he was 100% sentient... that's some mental gymnastic right there.

And let's even say you're right and he was 100% sentient at base... so what ? Why should that be a big deal ? Why couldn't we have several sentient themed warframes ? Why is it so important that every single frame mustn't have anything in common with the legion of other frames ? As long as the abilities are different, who cares ?

[Marvelous_A]

Very far-fetched theory, the warframe is still on the drawing board and might never leave it. The "make rework not update theory" is also dismissed by DE already noting that it simply doesn't work because people just get bored and leave the game. They will do it in parallel not stopping one for the other.

[SneakyErvin]

12 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

The point is, Warframes seem to use Void energy for a lot of their processes, most likely including self-sustenance, powering biomechanical computer systems, might even include bullet jumps. But Warframe powers are a weapon system. Trying to argue that it's all Void damage when it clearly doesn't deal Void damage. Orokin tech is definitely "magical" compared to real life (a fandom in-joke is "space magic") but a lot of these technologies that seem "magical" to real life are perfectly ordinary and mundane to the Orokin. Some is powered by the Void, some is not. But very little deals Void damage, only tech that explicitly shoots Void energy directly at the target, such as Xaku, is Void damage

That is good reasoning. One other thing to point out is that even the frames prior to the Z-kid introduction used the void to power their tech, so it isnt some "space magic" energy that some people seem to think that is related to the discovery of the Z-kids and their power, it was already there fueling the non- Z-kid controlled frames. And the product of the void power is highly dependant on the tech as you say, we can see that with the Z-kids aswell that can add tech to their amps to shift the raw void into alternate damage output.

[nerfinator6]

Man, I just want a nice looking revenant skin that doesn't make him look completely different, I don't want a deluxe that changes his appearance so much that he doesn't look anything like the original, I just want a nice CLEAN revenant skin, is that so hard to do?

 

Oh wait, there is one, and it's a community made one. 

 

OF COURSE IT IS.

[(PSN)Unstar]

I see people saying that Caliban is too similar to other Warframes, and I also see people saying Caliban is too different from other Warframes.  I sure am in General Discussion on the Warframe forums! :)

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

On 2021-09-07 at 11:46 PM, TARINunit9 said:

those are actually supposed to represent canon

Your interpretation again.

 

On 2021-09-07 at 11:46 PM, TARINunit9 said:

No. No that's not what I said.

 

On 2021-09-07 at 10:36 PM, TARINunit9 said:

Warframes (and Mechs) use the Void as energy

Yes it is lol

 

On 2021-09-07 at 11:46 PM, TARINunit9 said:

the game doesn't have enough sources that I could ever possibly be correct

We seem to have a disagreement on what source means.  You seem to think "Things that I can interpret to mean something even though they don't state it definitively" are a source.  I am asking you to produce something either from the game or from the devs that says exactly what you're saying.  Not what you interpret odds and ends to mean, but something that literally states the same thing matter of factly.  Until you do that, it's all your interpretation.

[TARINunit9]

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

Your interpretation again.

And I refuse to continue talking as long as your attitude is "everything I don't agree with is interpretation. Everything I do agree with is fact." Everything I could say would simply be repeating myself, pointing to things that are already in the game, despite your insistence that I made it up. I bid you good night.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

2 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

And I refuse to continue talking as long as your attitude is "everything I don't agree with is interpretation. Everything I do agree with is fact." Everything I could say would simply be repeating myself, pointing to things that are already in the game, despite your insistence that I made it up. I bid you good night.

I haven't stated anything about the lore to be fact, and it's actually the opposite.  I directly stated that neither of us actually know because it's not directly stated in-game or by the devs.  I even admitted that you might be right, just that you aren't providing an actual source that states your assumptions to be correct.  The fact that you said "I need to hurry this along before I start talking down to you." is already talking down to me, and yet you're still the main one being hostile when all I asked for was a direct, hard source that you can't provide.

It's also convenient that you decide to end the conversation right after you get called out for saying "I didn't say that" when you very obviously did and it's there in black and white.  We do agree on one thing though, this isn't going to go anywhere considering you've already decided that your opinions are fact, so yeah, have a nice night.

[TARINunit9]

13 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

he fact that you said "I need to hurry this along before I start talking down to you." is already talking down to me, and yet you're still the main one being hostile

And I apologize a second time for that. I am sorry. What I take umbrage with is this:

14 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

when all I asked for was a direct, hard source that you can't provide.

From my perspective, I have. I have posted direct facts that were pulled only from the game itself, basic facts such as "Sentients can develop resistance against Warframe powers" (which they can, that is literally a game mechanic). So when you refuse to acknowledge them as such, it seems to me that you are being selective about which sources are actually sources and which ones you can claim are my fanciful imagination

[Digressive]

locking thread as it has devolved into arguing back and forth.

thanks