Nerfing weapons and warframes is doing nothing but hurting the game.

[(XBOX)Harbinger XK5]

These nerfs are getting out of control and need to stop.

Here is why

When you put countless forma and anywhere from hours to even days making the best build only for DE to say screw you and nerf it into the ground it begins to feel futile and like a waste of your time.

Countless of my friends agree some are even quitting because the work they put into this game is just getting thrown away for no valid reason.

Before anyone tries to white knight for DE know this, the nerfs serve no real purpose as they don’t balance anything all it does and force you to throw weapons you really like aside and constantly redo the same mind numbing process over and over again.

If DE actually wanted to balance the game then they wouldn’t be doing something as lazy as nerfing our gear. The nerfs just make you feel like it’s not worth your time to make builds for weapons.

It is not easy to make these builds that can wipe out level thousands it takes a lot of time, forma, and creativity; and every time they nerf stuff it’s nothing more than a giant middle finger. I don’t even bother trying to make builds anymore because it’s just hopeless.

[(XBOX)Pugs9005]

seems like they're changing this mentality. with galvanized mods and helminth invigoration it looks like they're focusing more on player power

[(XBOX)Harbinger XK5]

Just now, (XBOX)Pugs9005 said:

seems like they're changing this mentality. with galvanized mods and helminth invigoration it looks like they're focusing more on player power

While nerfing melee in the process. the problem is that no matter what they do they're always nerfing something be it riven disposition, warframes, weapons, etc.

 

[(XBOX)Pugs9005]

Just now, (XBOX)Harbinger XK5 said:

While nerfing melee in the process. the problem is that no matter what they do they're always nerfing something be it riven disposition, warframes, weapons, etc.

 

i'm not going to "white knight" as you said above because i agree with your broader point, but this nerf changed BASICALLY nothing. let's be honest, are you doing significantly less, or even a noticeable amount less damage since the nerfs? nah, you can still kill anything in one hit with a slash proc. i would say compared to the insignificant melee nerfs, the ability to do something as ridiculous as give wisp 200% power strength shows progress in the right direction

[(XBOX)Harbinger XK5]

Warframe is basically a horde shooter game and as such nerfs are unnecessary when you have a limitless supply of enemies to mow down. if it wasn't for all the nerfs, Warframe would have been the only game i played for the 6 odd years I've been playing it.

[(XBOX)Harbinger XK5]

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)Pugs9005 said:

i'm not going to "white knight" as you said above because i agree with your broader point, but this nerf changed BASICALLY nothing. let's be honest, are you doing significantly less, or even a noticeable amount less damage since the nerfs? nah, you can still kill anything in one hit with a slash proc. i would say compared to the insignificant melee nerfs, the ability to do something as ridiculous as give wisp 200% power strength shows progress in the right direction

I agree with you on most of that, but the fact that they still nerf things is concerning because how far are they going to go with them. on top of that i noticed a fall in damage on some of my favorite weapons that don't seem to qualify for endgame anymore sadly.

 

[(XBOX)Pugs9005]

1 minute ago, (XBOX)Harbinger XK5 said:

Warframe is basically a horde shooter game and as such nerfs are unnecessary when you have a limitless supply of enemies to mow down. if it wasn't for all the nerfs, Warframe would have been the only game i played for the 6 odd years I've been playing it.

that's weird, considering how easy it already is to kill 9999 enemies. perhaps it's just a psychological thing, you feeling like your builds are "less" than they were before the nerfs? is there actually an enemy you're struggling to kill?

[(XBOX)Harbinger XK5]

6 minutes ago, (XBOX)Pugs9005 said:

that's weird, considering how easy it already is to kill 9999 enemies. perhaps it's just a psychological thing, you feeling like your builds are "less" than they were before the nerfs? is there actually an enemy you're struggling to kill?

It's not that i struggle to kill them, it's that it forces me to throw aside certain weapons that i liked but now can't do that type of stuff anymore i used to cycle between using over a hundred different weapons because i enjoyed them ex. Boltor Prime, Soma Prime, atterax, zenistar with ivara's navigator ability. then there are weapons that i really want to use but dont have the potential such as the Keratinos claws, komorex and a few others

[(XBOX)Pugs9005]

Just now, (XBOX)Harbinger XK5 said:

It's not that i struggle to kill them, it's that it forces me to throw aside certain weapons that i liked but now can't do that type of stuff anymore i used to cycle between using over a hundred different weapons because i enjoyed them ex. Boltor Prime, Soma Prime, atterax, zenistar with ivara's navigator ability.

ohhh i see. yes, power creep is a problem and the melee nerfs from the sister of parvos didn't help this. it just made the melee weapons that were struggling to compete worse.

i will say that trying to use something like the boltor prime might be a lost cause LOL, when that weapon came out we didn't have guns that had the AOE of a football field with no drawbacks. unless DE does some reworking single target weapons are the epitome of redundancy

[(XBOX)Harbinger XK5]

5 minutes ago, (XBOX)Pugs9005 said:

ohhh i see. yes, power creep is a problem and the melee nerfs from the sister of parvos didn't help this. it just made the melee weapons that were struggling to compete worse.

i will say that trying to use something like the boltor prime might be a lost cause LOL, when that weapon came out we didn't have guns that had the AOE of a football field with no drawbacks. unless DE does some reworking single target weapons are the epitome of redundancy

That is more or less what I'm getting at. DE nerfs things so people use a wider variety of weapons but in the end all they end up doing is making using a wider variety of weapons harder and almost pointless. 

 

[Rage_Inducer]

hace 1 minuto, (XBOX)Harbinger XK5 dijo:

That is more or less what I'm getting at. DE nerfs things so people use a wider variety of weapons but in the end all they end up doing is making using a wider variety of weapons harder and almost pointless. 

...Yeah rivens were supposed to fix this but all they've done is make mid tier weapons compete a little bit with the lower end of the top tier. When they're not making great weapons greater, they're utterly worthless because the stats are too weak or the base weapon can't be revived even by the perfect roll.

[(XBOX)Pugs9005]

1 minute ago, (XBOX)Harbinger XK5 said:

That is more or less what I'm getting at. DE nerfs things so people use a wider variety of weapons but in the end all they end up doing is making using a wider variety of weapons harder and almost pointless. 

 

mods for single target weapons only could fix the power creep here. maybe some way to turn them into aoe weapons, or similar to the galvanized mods just give them insane power upgrades. as it stands, i feel like i'm losing efficiency when i equip a single target weapon when i have a kuva zarr or a tenet envoy or a kuva bramma that has the destructive power of a WWII nuclear bomb

[(XBOX)Harbinger XK5]

Just now, Rage_Inducer said:

...Yeah rivens were supposed to fix this but all they've done is make mid tier weapons compete a little bit with the lower end of the top tier. When they're not making great weapons greater, they're utterly worthless because the stats are too weak or the base weapon can't be revived even by the perfect roll.

not to mention riven mods are practically the equivalent of a lottery system.

[(XBOX)Harbinger XK5]

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)Pugs9005 said:

mods for single target weapons only could fix the power creep here. maybe some way to turn them into aoe weapons, or similar to the galvanized mods just give them insane power upgrades. as it stands, i feel like i'm losing efficiency when i equip a single target weapon when i have a kuva zarr or a tenet envoy or a kuva bramma that has the destructive power of a WWII nuclear bomb

As Rage _Inducer said, some weapons have base stats that are too low for them to be redeemed by any existing mods. base stats also need to be increased as well.

[Artekkor]

Unfortunately nerfing is the only way DE can keep things at balance. People often say "don't nerf the strong stuff, just buff the weak stuff" but that's an insurmountable task because of the sheer amount of underpowered or underwhelming gear in the game. They'll have a giant backlog of things to fix, while monitoring that they don't accidentally buff it to godlike status again. Nerfing is way easier. And also why DE effectively outsourced buffings of old, weak stuff to rivens, letting RNG to sort it out.

While i understand the argument of sunken costs - i believe there are a couple of things that need addressing here.

First: that waste of forma happens either way as the game progresses and keeps adding new content that replaces old ones, power creep included. Eventually DE will add a sniper that's stronger than rubico prime and i don't think many will complain that they'll have to delete their rubico.

Second: players need to take some responsibility here too. While some people build meta stuff by accident and just go "oh wow, this is neat" there is also the case for people building meta stuff just because its meta and then using nothing else. The power hungry mindset of players is a double edged sword - they quickly figure out the best way to do X, but they also work as hounds for DE to find where the balance of game crumbles apart.
At some point i developed a sort of sense for "oh, this is way too good, DE will nerf this eventually" and i turn out to be right more often than not. Some things are just too good to be true and every forma used on such things is used with knowledge that DE will come for it eventually.

Third: all DE needs to do is to better calculate stuff on release. Things wouldn't need nerfing if they weren't released as broken as they are. We had SO many cases of AoE weapons being way too good for their own good - i'm more dumbfounded that DE keeps stepping on the same rake over and over again.
There is a possibility that they do it intentionally, turning weapons into a short-term forma-bait, but i'm gonna give them some credit and assume that is not the case and they are just being idiots (no offense, but seriously - Simulor, Tonkor, Bramma, that one Kitgun. We have more than enough data to not let this happen again, because we know PRECISELY why these things happen).

So yeah. Nerf good, buff hard, need smart to avoid nerf.

[Oggyswe]

Tbh warframe needs a complete rebalsnce. These nerfs and adding new power cycles are just a crutch. 

 

Warframe need to get all numbers lowered so they can construct challanges around it. Where most gear lands in the same place.

Because right now either you balance for the broken builds and they become mandatory or you ignore them and they trivalise all the content you make. 

 

[(XBOX)Harbinger XK5]

7 minutes ago, Artekkor said:

Unfortunately nerfing is the only way DE can keep things at balance. People often say "don't nerf the strong stuff, just buff the weak stuff" but that's an insurmountable task because of the sheer amount of underpowered or underwhelming gear in the game. They'll have a giant backlog of things to fix, while monitoring that they don't accidentally buff it to godlike status again. Nerfing is way easier. And also why DE effectively outsourced buffings of old, weak stuff to rivens, letting RNG to sort it out.

While i understand the argument of sunken costs - i believe there are a couple of things that need addressing here.

First: that waste of forma happens either way as the game progresses and keeps adding new content that replaces old ones, power creep included. Eventually DE will add a sniper that's stronger than rubico prime and i don't think many will complain that they'll have to delete their rubico.

Second: players need to take some responsibility here too. While some people build meta stuff by accident and just go "oh wow, this is neat" there is also the case for people building meta stuff just because its meta and then using nothing else. The power hungry mindset of players is a double edged sword - they quickly figure out the best way to do X, but they also work as hounds for DE to find where the balance of game crumbles apart.
At some point i developed a sort of sense for "oh, this is way too good, DE will nerf this eventually" and i turn out to be right more often than not. Some things are just too good to be true and every forma used on such things is used with knowledge that DE will come for it eventually.

Third: all DE needs to do is to better calculate stuff on release. Things wouldn't need nerfing if they weren't released as broken as they are. We had SO many cases of AoE weapons being way too good for their own good - i'm more dumbfounded that DE keeps stepping on the same rake over and over again.
There is a possibility that they do it intentionally, turning weapons into a short-term forma-bait, but i'm gonna give them some credit and assume that is not the case and they are just being idiots (no offense, but seriously - Simulor, Tonkor, Bramma, that one Kitgun. We have more than enough data to not let this happen again, because we know PRECISELY why these things happen).

So yeah. Nerf good, buff hard, need smart to avoid nerf.

Nerfing is easier yes but if you want to make a game truly shine you don't take the easiest route, it's just lazy and on top of that it's a pve game that sends limitless hordes of enemies after you, nerfing is unnecessary. let's not forget the ridiculousness of a level 5 sister of parvos trying to kill those things is already hard enough without them nerfing the only things that can put a dent in their health. also the RNG system of rivens is one the most cancerous things i have ever seen.

[(XBOX)Harbinger XK5]

5 minutes ago, Oggyswe said:

Tbh warframe needs a complete rebalsnce. These nerfs and adding new power cycles are just a crutch. 

 

Warframe need to get all numbers lowered so they can construct challanges around it. Where most gear lands in the same place.

Because right now either you balance for the broken builds and they become mandatory or you ignore them and they trivalise all the content you make. 

 

Most of warframe's content is trivial just in the way it flows such as exterminates, mobile defenses, sabotages. it's just the same exact thing over and over again with no variety, it's dull and boring, and nerfing just makes it more painful than it already is.

[Oggyswe]

5 minutes ago, (XBOX)Harbinger XK5 said:

Most of warframe's content is trivial just in the way it flows such as exterminates, mobile defenses, sabotages. it's just the same exact thing over and over again with no variety, it's dull and boring, and nerfing just makes it more painful than it already is.

revamping most modes to be engaging is also needed. but you cant do that untill you made sure there arent overpowered things. 

tho i doubt they will chose that path due to the extreme amount of work to get there.

[(XBOX)Harbinger XK5]

None of these weapons are truly overpowered on their own though it takes work to get them there which in turn means that if you don't want them to be so overpowered then don't mod them to be it's as simple as that and then everyone can be happy.

 

[Leqesai]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Harbinger XK5 said:

None of these weapons are truly overpowered on their own though it takes work to get them there which in turn means that if you don't want them to be so overpowered then don't mod them to be it's as simple as that and then everyone can be happy.

 

What...

This is like saying the Fat Man in Fallout 3 is not overpowered because you don't have to use it. Some weapons are overpowered, simple as that. You can't claim that they're only overpowered when modded in specific ways... 

Also, in what world have any of the nerfs stopped you (or anyone else) from clearing all content with little to no struggle. Warframe is piss-easy at this point and as another user in this thread said, a complete rebalance is needed at this point. Players are so stupidly overpowered that missions are borderline boring. I haven't failed a mission (outside of rad-proc insta-lose) in a long time (maybe once this year and maybe twice last year...). 

Also, what nerf are you complaining about specifically? Melee nerf was absolutely trivial (melee still destroys all content). Nukor still obliterates in all content as well. Is there something else that got nerfed recently that has triggered you?

[Leqesai]

1 hour ago, Oggyswe said:

revamping most modes to be engaging is also needed. but you cant do that untill you made sure there arent overpowered things. 

tho i doubt they will chose that path due to the extreme amount of work to get there.

The core offender with balance in Warframe is enemy armor to damage reduction. This asinine system has grossly unbalanced combat between the available factions (made most obvious due to how Steel Path works). Everyone mods their gear for Grineer and just leaves it at that. You don't need to change your loadouts to accommodate Corpus, Corrupted, Sentient or Infested.

They need to either cap the damage reduction on enemies or rework the model from the ground up. Once this is fixed/changed then balancing can occur, until then Grineer damage reduction throws everything out of whack.

[Oggyswe]

46 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

The core offender with balance in Warframe is enemy armor to damage reduction. This asinine system has grossly unbalanced combat between the available factions (made most obvious due to how Steel Path works). Everyone mods their gear for Grineer and just leaves it at that. You don't need to change your loadouts to accommodate Corpus, Corrupted, Sentient or Infested.

They need to either cap the damage reduction on enemies or rework the model from the ground up. Once this is fixed/changed then balancing can occur, until then Grineer damage reduction throws everything out of whack.

agree but even then some weapons out preforme others to a ridicolus degree. ofc all weapons cant be top tier. but most weapons should be viable in most content.

 

since whats the point of adding weapons you get from later in game if only one ever will dominate. and DE have been putting off proper balance far to long.

 

remember when i started playing and the game already lacked balance in most things.

[Tyreaus]

2 hours ago, Oggyswe said:

revamping most modes to be engaging is also needed. but you cant do that untill you made sure there arent overpowered things. 

tho i doubt they will chose that path due to the extreme amount of work to get there.

I'd say you can get to engaging content even with certain overpowered things, if one leans into that OPness as a matter of fact. Resting more on the 'glass cannon' concept, for example, by vastly lowering player and enemy durability and granting the player particular tools (e.g. invisibility and parkour) to avoid enemy fire outright. Think Hotline Miami as an example (albeit Warframeified).

FWIW, I think that's doable with a stricter form of Wisp-like invisibility (dispelled by any attacking), improved AI detection with terrain and walls and better limits (so they stop seeing us through physical objects fifty miles away), and probably a handful of other tweaks like to Decaying keys, rolling guard, Augur sets, and so on to ensure players are genuinely threatened when shot at.

Not to say that should be done. Just that it's possible to tweak different things to keep certain forms of OPness intact, depending what kind of caveats you'd find acceptable in your power fantasy.

[Oggyswe]

11 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

I'd say you can get to engaging content even with certain overpowered things, if one leans into that OPness as a matter of fact. Resting more on the 'glass cannon' concept, for example, by vastly lowering player and enemy durability and granting the player particular tools (e.g. invisibility and parkour) to avoid enemy fire outright. Think Hotline Miami as an example (albeit Warframeified).

FWIW, I think that's doable with a stricter form of Wisp-like invisibility (dispelled by any attacking), improved AI detection with terrain and walls and better limits (so they stop seeing us through physical objects fifty miles away), and probably a handful of other tweaks like to Decaying keys, rolling guard, Augur sets, and so on to ensure players are genuinely threatened when shot at.

Not to say that should be done. Just that it's possible to tweak different things to keep certain forms of OPness intact, depending what kind of caveats you'd find acceptable in your power fantasy.

the problem is that you cant create content for a game that got over 1000s of uniqe items and then that content only uses a few.