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From DE perspective, is Yareli ok?


quxier
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On 2021-09-09 at 2:43 AM, quxier said:

I took her o Requiem/Kuva fissure, Exterminate. No forma. No extreme build (I don't remember if I had ~50% strength or not) - everything <= 150%. I've been doing just fine. I've been using her 1 & 3. And a gun, kuva nukor. K.Nukor might be one of more powerful gear from my setup but probably nothing incredible.

I've been doing fine. I heard they are balancing stuffs for normal (not sp) levels. With some work/forma I can see it doing fine for such content. Of course some stuffs will be harder and some will be easier.

If it can beat such levels do you think DE is ok with releasing such frames despite frames having lot of "bad stuffs"? It strucks me with Yareli but Sevagoth has a lot of bad stuffs to.

Yareli is viable on normal Star Chart missions. She is actually fine on Steel Path missions as well. She was fine on Steel Path even before the latest buffs.

The biggest issue may simply be that K-Drive is not well suited for some tilesets that are mainly comprised of tight passages and some obstacles. The Kuva Fortress tilesets are a good example - to run through them efficiently one needs to make tight turns and change level more often than other tilesets - more suited for parkour than K-Drive. The latest patch helps navigating tighter tilesets with more ease with the decrease in Merulina's inertia and the dash, but Yareli is more enjoyable and effective on tilesets with a little more freedom.

Warframe can coddle players into not needing good mechanical- or tactical- or strategical skill. Situational awareness is optional and one can still  do well, even on Steel Path: Some weapons don't actually need good aim to be effective due to their AoE. Some abilities don't require you to know where the enemies actually are, since they grab enemies and group them up nicely for you, or stun them in place, or just kill them outright without you actually even being aware of them. Yareli is not that frame to the same degree as some other frames.

Edit: I'll admit some of the mechanics on Yareli are unexpected and feels out of place, such as not being able to mod Merulina, or being dismounted when using the operator, or being dismounted when reviving an ally.

Here is the harsh truth: Yareli is more suited for players that are more mechanically, strategically and tactically inclined. If you have decent aim and situational awareness, her abilities and passive will enable you to be effective. If you are seriously lacking in those skills and don't want to improve on them - if you can't aim and don't really care to know where enemies are or what your surroundings are, you will probably struggle on her when doing higher level content.

You don't need to be exceptionally good in these fields to do well with her in even Steel Path and I am quite sure most people can get to a point where she will serve them well, if they want, but she isn't a "let me do pretty much everything for you" frame. 

Edited by Silligoose
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3 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Here is the harsh truth: Yareli is more suited for players that are more mechanically, strategically and tactically inclined. If you have decent aim and situational awareness, her abilities and passive will enable you to be effective. If you are seriously lacking in those skills and don't want to improve on them - if you can't aim and don't really care to know where enemies are or what your surroundings are, you will probably struggle on her when doing higher level content.

Is it really truth? I mean I don't find SP challenging so I don't do it. I don't think her 3rd will do enough damage for that level. However her 1st & 4th doesn't strike as something that pay for your mechanical/strategical/tactical skill too much. I could put 1st, move a little and crit +200% for almost free.

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4 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Yareli is viable on normal Star Chart missions. She is actually fine on Steel Path missions as well. She was fine on Steel Path even before the latest buffs.

The biggest issue may simply be that K-Drive is not well suited for some tilesets that are mainly comprised of tight passages and some obstacles. The Kuva Fortress tilesets are a good example - to run through them efficiently one needs to make tight turns and change level more often than other tilesets - more suited for parkour than K-Drive. The latest patch helps navigating tighter tilesets with more ease with the decrease in Merulina's inertia and the dash, but Yareli is more enjoyable and effective on tilesets with a little more freedom.

Warframe can coddle players into not needing good mechanical- or tactical- or strategical skill. Situational awareness is optional and one can still  do well, even on Steel Path: Some weapons don't actually need good aim to be effective due to their AoE. Some abilities don't require you to know where the enemies actually are, since they grab enemies and group them up nicely for you, or stun them in place, or just kill them outright without you actually even being aware of them. Yareli is not that frame to the same degree as some other frames.

Edit: I'll admit some of the mechanics on Yareli are unexpected and feels out of place, such as not being able to mod Merulina, or being dismounted when using the operator, or being dismounted when reviving an ally.

Here is the harsh truth: Yareli is more suited for players that are more mechanically, strategically and tactically inclined. If you have decent aim and situational awareness, her abilities and passive will enable you to be effective. If you are seriously lacking in those skills and don't want to improve on them - if you can't aim and don't really care to know where enemies are or what your surroundings are, you will probably struggle on her when doing higher level content.

You don't need to be exceptionally good in these fields to do well with her in even Steel Path and I am quite sure most people can get to a point where she will serve them well, if they want, but she isn't a "let me do pretty much everything for you" frame. 

I've done SP missions without using abilities on frames. Good weapons alone can do SP. That doesn't really excuse bad design and garbage damage output.

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6 minutes ago, quxier said:

Is it really truth? I mean I don't find SP challenging so I don't do it. I don't think her 3rd will do enough damage for that level. However her 1st & 4th doesn't strike as something that pay for your mechanical/strategical/tactical skill too much. I could put 1st, move a little and crit +200% for almost free

Yes it is really the truth. Yareli is about constant movement, not stopping to cast something and then moving and waiting 1.5 seconds for her passive to activate again and then shooting.  Her survivability ties in with continuous movement. Her damage ties in with continuous movement and situational awareness. Her cc ties in with controlling areas where you aren't necessarily primarily focused and if you can hit targets while moving, yeah you are going to struggle.

On SP where there are more enemies than normal star chart, I find Sea Snares are best used to help control chokepoints/areas from which you can get flanked, where you currently aren't fully focused, not just to cc the enemies in front of you for an easier shot. This is especially true when you have to defend some point/target, such as Interception, Excavations and Defense, where enemies pose threats from multiple angles and you can only cc limited amounts of enemies. With AoE cc like Vauban, Khora or Limbo, you just make sure you have some range and place the cc ability around the area/defense target and if you didn't notice some enemies flanking no big deal, no harsh punishment in most cases, since the AoE cc stops/grabs them anyway. The number of enemies also don't matter with AoE cc like that. With single target cc like Sea Snares, if you don't notice enemies flanking the punishment can be far harsher and if you don't use enough Sea Snares on the right areas, those areas may get overrun.

Aqua Blades do a surprising amount of damage due to the how fast they hit and the guaranteed status procs they can inflict, dealing true damage. I didn't think they'd make much of a difference vs Grineer, but they actually do even there. Of course they aren't the greatest vs Grineer, but they make a difference, especially if you use some armour reduction or viral. They can also stagger enemies, another form of cc (albeit brief) preventing melee enemies from getting too close. They increase your damage output and damage mitigation as you flow through the enemies, but you don't slap them on and go stand in the middle of hardy Grineer units and expect the Grineer to keel over.

Riptide can provide some good damage, since it increases in damage the more enemies are caught.  Cast it on one or two enemies, not so great: At base strength, using it on 2 enemies, it outputs 3750 burst cold damage at the center. Cast it on 10 enemies, it now outputs around 15 000 cold burst damage at the center. That's pretty good as far as ability damage output goes, but you need to aim it and you need to make sure the timing is right. 

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26 minutes ago, stormy505 said:

I've done SP missions without using abilities on frames. Good weapons alone can do SP. That doesn't really excuse bad design and garbage damage output.

None of Yareli's abilities are just pure damage, but aside from Exalted Weapons, which frames are you actually using for the damage they output from their abilities? I don't mean damage multipliers, but actually damage output. Let us compare that to Yareli's "garbage" ability damage output and functions.

Edited by Silligoose
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2 hours ago, Silligoose said:

None of Yareli's abilities are just pure damage, but aside from Exalted Weapons, which frames are you actually using for the damage they output from their abilities? I don't mean damage multipliers, but actually damage output. Let us compare that to Yareli's "garbage" ability damage output and functions.

Half of her abilities are as close to pure damage as one gets in Warframe. Even Ice Wave is less pure damage than Yareli's 3 and 4, because at least Ice Wave provides some CC to speak of. As for frames with ability-only damage output that absolutely put Yareli to shame, there's Grendel, Octavia, Revenant, and Xaku. (I'm probably missing some, but there's a few for you.) They all have at least one of two things going for them that Yareli's completely missing:

  • Damage scaling with enemy level. (Grendel, Xaku. Octavia indirectly through enemy damage.)
  • Percentage-based damage. (Revenant.)

Other frames that for one reason or another outperform Yareli in pure ability damage are Protea, Gauss, and if you allow stat sticks, Ash and Gara.

As for the "she's not bad, you just need to git gud" argument, the same can be said for literally any frame in the game. Even a Loki not using his abilities can do fine in the Steel Path. I dunno who you consider to be the weakest frame in the game if it's not Yareli, but let's say you think Hydroid is bad. One might then retort with:

8 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Hydroid is more suited for players that are more mechanically, strategically and tactically inclined. If you have decent aim and situational awareness, his abilities and passive will enable you to be effective. If you are seriously lacking in those skills and don't want to improve on them - if you can't aim and don't really care to know where enemies are or what your surroundings are, you will probably struggle on him when doing higher level content.

When one compares Yareli to what other frames offer, it becomes apparent that she's very undertuned, and that's a fact. Sure, you can definitely spin that as

8 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Warframe can coddle players into not needing good mechanical- or tactical- or strategical skill. Situational awareness is optional and one can still  do well, even on Steel Path: Some weapons don't actually need good aim to be effective due to their AoE. Some abilities don't require you to know where the enemies actually are, since they grab enemies and group them up nicely for you, or stun them in place, or just kill them outright without you actually even being aware of them. Yareli is not that frame to the same degree as some other frames.

but at the end of the day, that's just a longer and kinder way to say that Yareli's awful.

Edited by Perfectly_Framed_Waifu
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On 2021-09-09 at 3:47 AM, Yamazuki said:

 

That's an extremely low bar, given any Warframe can clear all content as long as they aren't given a troll passive that drops weapon damage to 0 or anything to make them unusable.

A Warframe being able to clear content isn't an accomplishment or praise worthy. DE may as well just release Warframes that are purely cosmetic if they aren't going to try.

Warframe is not a competitive game. you do not need ultimate meta nuking frame for anything TBH. One that you like and enjoy playing with is all that matters (though obviously bugs and QoL features are very important to resolve first)

Yareli should be a fast, agile frame. One that can run away from the enemy, not charge them down and kill everything with ease. That variety makes sense. Its a different playstyle yet it seems it must work on steel path Mot without problem to not get grief on the forums.

DE does not balance anything for steel path, which is fine. Until they started adding useful drops there, that is.

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I think the issue of "frame quality" lies in the only area it actually shouldn't matter. Yureli is a fun frame that is great at normal levels, requires more skill at higher levels and is purposely build to be a support & sabotage frame. Steel Path should not count as a determining factor of frame quality because it's "new game plus". "TEST YOUR SKILL" was the reason for SP and Yureli is a great example of when difficulty and challenge becomes actual difficulty and challenge. Unfortunately, from a YouTube content creator view, difficulty and challenge isn't what's actually wanted and she was requested to be stronger. 

In regards to her kit, I think it synergizes well for her actual role. "Trap, weaken and wound" while your weapons and teammate's weapons handle the rest. This is why I love her kit. She's different and fun. Not every frame should be an auto killer.

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8 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

In other words:

d9xsdrY.jpg

Not all combat units are tanks. Some are scouts, some are support, some are utility, I think DE would have done better if they'd given her (or him) much more utility powers than feebly weak offensive ones.

Would it be better if one of her powers was a "water wake" that she can zip past enemies pulling them in and knocking them down behind her for the rest of the team to take out? Trinity is a non-offensive frame, and nobody complains about her. Yareli could have been the same, but with mostly differnet utility.

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5 minutes ago, gbjbaanb said:

Not all combat units are tanks. Some are scouts, some are support, some are utility, I think DE would have done better if they'd given her (or him) much more utility powers than feebly weak offensive ones.

Would it be better if one of her powers was a "water wake" that she can zip past enemies pulling them in and knocking them down behind her for the rest of the team to take out? Trinity is a non-offensive frame, and nobody complains about her. Yareli could have been the same, but with mostly differnet utility.

Isn't Merulina supposed to make her a tank? Mine has 11k HP. That should be Inaros levels of EHP, but in practice it doesn't matter how much it is because it's just raw health.

And your "water wake" sounds like a perfectly acceptable augment - or regular K-Drive mod. She can already scoot around CCing enemies, so that kind of thing sounds just right for her.

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14 minutes ago, gbjbaanb said:

Not all combat units are tanks. Some are scouts, some are support, some are utility, I think DE would have done better if they'd given her (or him) much more utility powers than feebly weak offensive ones.

While it sounds like we could argue for a while regarding whether or not Merulina is / should be a tank ability and thus buffed to equal others, I'm not gonna go there because it sounds like we can clearly agree that her other abilities are too low damage but that a focus on CC would've been better.

For my basic choices, it'd be some duration on Riptide to let the squad make use of the grouping, a la Larva, Ensnare, Vortex, or Magnetize. Add AoE CC to her bubbles (lifting all enemies within a few meters, not just one) and you have yourself a pretty decent utility frame.

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6 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Orokin 1: So, what does your latest war machine specialize in?
Orokin 2: Running away from enemies.
Orokin 1: ...

Except she's not even good at that.

 

I tried out the new changes, after avoiding them while I farmed for Nidus Prime and did just enough Plague Star to get the MR-Saw.  I do like the shift bullet jump on Merulina, but it's still a K drive.  Indoors, most of the time.  And even if the handling gets improved, you're still giving up a significant portion of your loadout to use her.  I particularly noticed this while my idiot cat was taking damage, and I was powerless to heal her without flopping off of Merulina to melee something.

 

If this is all we're getting as far as post-launch Yareli updates, then I don't think this frame is for me.  I will use her whenever a "Get 20 Kills on a K Drive" challenge rolls around for Nightwave.  But I don't see any use for her beyond that.  Thank you, DE, for the shift bullet jump.  It does help.  But she's still bottom of the barrel.

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7 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Half of her abilities are as close to pure damage as one gets in Warframe. Even Ice Wave is less pure damage than Yareli's 3 and 4, because at least Ice Wave provides some CC to speak of. As for frames with ability-only damage output that absolutely put Yareli to shame, there's Grendel, Octavia, Revenant, and Xaku. (I'm probably missing some, but there's a few for you.) They all have at least one of two things going for them that Yareli's completely missing:

  • Damage scaling with enemy level. (Grendel, Xaku. Octavia indirectly through enemy damage.)
  • Percentage-based damage. (Revenant.)

Other frames that for one reason or another outperform Yareli in pure ability damage are Protea, Gauss, and if you allow stat sticks, Ash and Gara.

The only ability Yareli has that can be considered as close as pure damage as one gets in Warframe, is Aquablades. The value Riptide provides extends beyond the damage output - the cc is valuable, the enemy repositioning is valuable, especially when you use that repositioning during the cast and/or subsequent recovery of enemies to get more Aquablade procs in, or to get better value from AoE - it's a tactical thing.

It's hard to argue against scaling abilities, as the counter-argument can simply be "Yeah but vs level cap enemies Ability x does millions of damage". I'll concede scaling damage abilities will probably outshine non-scaling damage abilities in endurance runs that exceed an hour, but for missions that don't run long, it isn't the case, not even with your examples: 20 enemies into Riptide is 2000 Cold damage in ticks, 27500 damage in burst in the liquid sphere , totaling 29 500 Cold Damage at base on each enemy in less than 2 seconds. I like and play most of the frames you mentioned. In terms of abilities, Xaku can't do that. Grendel can't do that. Ash can't do that. Gauss can't do that. These frames can't match that with their abilities, let alone only one ability. They either lack the damage, or require some sort combo to pull that off, or take more time to do it. I don't know what Protea's damage output is; can't comment on it. Octavia I won't argue, since Mallet is just ridiculously strong. Revenant Dance Macabre? Sure I'll give that given the mechanics of adjusting to  enemy weakness, but not Reave - needs time to set up with Thralls, plus he can't have that many Thralls. Gara, sure, she can exceed that. You can check the Warframe Wiki as my source for the damage calculation.

Me hitting 20 enemies with Riptide isn't even an optimal, cherry-picked condition. That's just something that happens fairly regularly in normal play on SP in certain mission types like Survival or Disruption; I'm sure most people who play SP know encountering 20+ enemies in a 30 m - 40m area is not uncommon. You can hit 30 enemies if you bait them a bit: 42k damage output per enemy at base (40k of which is burst) within the sphere, but it requires some setup. Throw in some mods, a bit of range, you'll hit numbers like 80k, 90k+ per enemy in actual missions, without any other status procs on them. Riptide does well against Infested, very well against Corpus, but as with any upfront damage, Grineer will need some procs to weaken them in order for said upfront damage to be effective.

 

7 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

As for the "she's not bad, you just need to git gud" argument, the same can be said for literally any frame in the game. Even a Loki not using his abilities can do fine in the Steel Path. I dunno who you consider to be the weakest frame in the game if it's not Yareli, but let's say you think Hydroid is bad. One might then retort with:

I haven't played Hydroid much in a long time. I'm not familiar with his mechanics, so I can't speak to it. I'm not so sure a decent, or even good, player can do SP with Loki without using his abilities. Maybe with an OP weapon, but still the player would have to be far beyond decent in my opinion, perhaps cheese a bit with the Operator and maybe even have a bit of luck to complete certain missions such as Interception or some defense-orientated missions solo.

 

7 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

ut at the end of the day, that's just a longer and kinder way to say that Yareli's awful.

It was a way to explain her kit is not for those who have not yet learned certain skills: If you can't aim and hit targets reliably while moving; if you have to stand still to hit an enemy reliably, you are going to struggle. If you don't use her cc on the right locations, you are going to struggle on defense-orientated missions and Interceptions. On the flip side, if you are mechanically, strategically and tactically adept, you can do those missions on SP. No, she isn't awful.

Now I've demonstrated, with objective numbers, what Yareli's "garbage" damage output is and compared to some of your listed frames like Xaku, Gauss, Grendel, she does more damage in less time than any of them in actual conditions found a plenty in SP missions (excluding long endurance runs) with her abilities alone. So if you say her damage is garbage, then are you saying their damage is even more garbage? Prove me wrong with some actual numbers, if you can.

Edited by Silligoose
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35 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

While it sounds like we could argue for a while regarding whether or not Merulina is / should be a tank ability and thus buffed to equal others, I'm not gonna go there because it sounds like we can clearly agree that her other abilities are too low damage but that a focus on CC would've been better.

For my basic choices, it'd be some duration on Riptide to let the squad make use of the grouping, a la Larva, Ensnare, Vortex, or Magnetize. Add AoE CC to her bubbles (lifting all enemies within a few meters, not just one) and you have yourself a pretty decent utility frame.

Maybe if she had the power to summon a literal tsunami to kill and wipe away enemies?

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56 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

The only ability Yareli has that can be considered as close as pure damage as one gets in Warframe, is Aquablades. The value Riptide provides extends beyond the damage output - the cc is valuable, the enemy repositioning is valuable, especially when you use that repositioning during the cast and/or subsequent recovery of enemies to get more Aquablade procs in, or to get better value from AoE - it's a tactical thing.

Considering that Riptide has no duration and subsequently spreads out enemies yet again, it is of less CC value than Airburst or even Telos Boltace's slide attack. As such, it is all but completely a pure damage ability.

56 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

It's hard to argue against scaling abilities, as the counter-argument can simply be "Yeah but vs level cap enemies Ability x does millions of damage". I'll concede scaling damage abilities will probably outshine non-scaling damage abilities in endurance runs that exceed an hour, but for missions that don't run long, it isn't the case, not even with your examples: 20 enemies into Riptide is 2000 Cold damage in ticks, 27500 damage in burst in the liquid sphere , totaling 29 500 Cold Damage at base on each enemy in less than 2 seconds. I like and play most of the frames you mentioned. In terms of abilities, Xaku can't do that. Grendel can't do that. Ash can't do that. Gauss can't do that. These frames can't match that with their abilities, let alone only one ability. They either lack the damage, or require some sort combo to pull that off, or take more time to do it. I don't know what Protea's damage output is; can't comment on it. Octavia I won't argue, since Mallet is just ridiculously strong. Revenant Dance Macabre? Sure I'll give that given the mechanics of adjusting to  enemy weakness, but not Reave - needs time to set up with Thralls, plus he can't have that many Thralls. Gara, sure, she can exceed that. You can check the Warframe Wiki as my source for the damage calculation.

Obviously, that Cold damage is gonna be much lower versus Armor, which both Xaku, Grendel, Ash, and Gauss has options to Ignore. Riptide doesn't, and Aquablades isn't on par with that damage. And to quote the Wiki you mentioned for an example, on Feast's damage:

Quote

With 10 eaten enemies at level 101, Grendel will deal 500 × ((101 × 10 - 1) / 15 + 1) = 34,133.33

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but 34,133.33 is more than 29,500, no? And that's with 10 enemies instead of 20. With 20 eaten, you're looking at 67,800 damage - slightly more than Riptide. Bump the level up to 130, Steel Path level, and we get up to 87,133 damage. In fact, Riptide only outshines Feast at levels 43 and below. Kinda. Feast also has a guaranteed Toxin proc, dealing an additional 3x of that damage over its duration, so you can take those Feast numbers and x4 them. If you count that, Riptide only outshines Feast at levels 10 and below. Which is... kinda sad.

Let's not forget the obvious though - if we're looking at that low a level (43), we'll be looking at a lot of overkill damage most of the time. A Grineer Lancer only has an effective health of 6,832 at that level, while a Heavy Gunner has 39,895. Take away the Armor, we're looking at 2,746 and 5,812, respective. Grendel, Gauss, and Xaku can remove Armor, Ash can ignore it, Riptide can't do either so Yareli is stuck with the inadequate Aquablades.

But sure, there might be some low level range where Yareli does better than those frames, but if we're only looking at low level content, Yareli instead has to compete with frames like, say, Ember, Banshee, Khora, and Equinox. Not that "she can nuke low level content" is something worth celebrating.

56 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

I'm not so sure a decent, or even good, player can do SP with Loki without using his abilities. Maybe with an OP weapon, but still the player would have to be far beyond decent in my opinion, perhaps cheese a bit with the Operator and maybe even have a bit of luck to complete certain missions such as Interception or some defense-orientated missions solo.

I'mma just say, don't underestimate what Prime Sure Footed and a Bramma can accomplish.

56 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

It was a way to explain her kit is not for those who have not yet learned certain skills: If you can't aim and hit targets reliably while moving; if you have to stand still to hit an enemy reliably, you are going to struggle. If you don't use her cc on the right locations, you are going to struggle on defense-orientated missions and Interceptions. On the flip side, if you are mechanically, strategically and tactically adept, you can do those missions on SP. No, she isn't awful.

Technically, every frame in the game, including an ability-less Loki, can do fine. By that standard, no frame in the game is bad. That's kinda why we need to look at what the frame offers and accomplishes compared to the others, and thus we can see that Yareli is indeed awful. The very reason she requires those certain skills to do well is because of her innate short-comings, and except for a basic crit buff, she doesn't offer enough to balance out the effort needed. Contrast with frames like Harrow or Mirage who massively reward you for your skills.

56 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Now I've demonstrated, with objective numbers, what Yareli's "garbage" damage output is and compared to some of your listed frames like Xaku, Gauss, Grendel, she does more damage in less time than any of them in actual conditions found a plenty in SP missions (excluding long endurance runs) with her abilities alone. So if you say her damage is garbage, but her time to kill is better, then are you saying their damage is even more garbage? Prove me wrong with some actual numbers, if you can.

Now I've demonstrated why this quote is blatantly false. With numbers. Forget Steel Path - Yareli barely gets to non-SP Mars before her damage is beat, and that's a proven fact.

Edited by Perfectly_Framed_Waifu
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She's better now but still mostly a very tanky frame with a not so useful K-drive.

She has a mediocre theme mediocre abilities and is overall a rather forgettable warframe.

Using her K-drive in tight rooms is horrendous and it's the only thing I remember of her.

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On 2021-09-10 at 9:33 AM, SneakyErvin said:

The main issue with Yareli is that she doesnt fill a role that cannot be done better by another frame.

That's arguably one of the most pointless arguments you can make. This game has 47 frames and will keep growing in that number towards the future. You make make this comment about almost any of the other 46 frames. So this is definitely not the "main" issue.

10 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Isn't Merulina supposed to make her a tank? Mine has 11k HP. That should be Inaros levels of EHP, but in practice it doesn't matter how much it is because it's just raw health.

Not really a tank at higher levels. At anything below level 50 she's quite tanky. But higher levels just kill Merulina too fast. Kind of wondering what the thought process was here.

8 hours ago, Marvelous_A said:

She's better now but still mostly a very tanky frame with a not so useful K-drive.

I think what puts people off the most is the K Drive. It's very yanky to use outside of the open world areas (and sometimes even inside the open world areas). Feels like I'm driving a car in a shopping mall. If anything this is a design flaw of the frame. The other parts of her kit can be fixed with some tweaks here and there.

Edited by RazerXPrime
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Just now, moostar95 said:

alot of the newer frames tend to be favor of the month. you get a wisp or a protea. but after that, its niche city. 

That is if you approach the game in a min-max way. That's of course the player perogative. You can use any frame on any mission and be fine if you know how to play at a decent level. Sure some frames are better at defense missions and such, but honestly niche isn't a word I would use. At all.

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Just now, moostar95 said:

The majorly of players min max the game. we have been for years. its a grinding game. im not playing frames that tend to make the flow of grinding slower.  water waifu bait is still a joek after this "rework".

While there's litterally no proof to your claim, if it were true it would make those people quite a sad bunch. Also makes me understand why so many people are upset at mundane things. So it kind of makes sense I guess. I almost feel bad for you.

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32 minutes ago, moostar95 said:

its "literally".    i dont want yours or anyone's pity. there are a ton of comments already about how this rework barely does any good past mars. not even steel path levels as well. takes a lot to defend bad character design. but never suspect more from free game communities. have fun derailing the thread without me. 

I think that peoples playstyle and how they approach the game has everything to do with this topic. If you're looking for a frame that's top tier at everything, then Yareli isn't it. Question is, is this a problem? I've seen plenty of topics/comments about people doing Steel Path with Yarelli and doing just fine. Although, I myself probably wouldn't select her for that. That said, DE has stated that the game isn't balanced around Steel Path. So the argument that Yareli falls behind on that mode is kind of moot. I mean, I agree that she "should" be able to do it, but the fact that she doesn't isn't a bad character design, because it's in line with DE's design statement. We wouldn't be having this conversation if Yarelli was released a year ago.

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3 hours ago, moostar95 said:

Reading you two's comments is just more proof that DE has no idea what to make of this game anymore. they were gunning on adding on broken frames left and right.  nowadays they're somehow for some reason trying to walk away from fixing their errors by S#&amp;&#036;ting out content that barely slows down our power. all while  making new favors of the month frames to make back more of a buck because they see reworking frames a waste of time and money. they still rework frames. but now when ever they feel like it. instead of having be more of an importance like many other games as a service do so. 

I've currently stopped playing until the new war and after that im hanging it all up after 8 years. Tenno gen, frames like this watery trash gives DE the big bucks now more than ever.  if i want to pay a company a S#&amp;&#036; ton for outfits, ill head back over to the trainwreck that is pso2 new genesis.  At least i can make a character like  hildryn and actually have them be customable without having to wait a million years for a skin.  I've give it my all with DE and here we are again. still talking about the same thing about the general direction of the game.  which is none. i perfer games that know their identity and i just dont know what to make of this game anymore. 

People will buy DE's purchasable products, whether it be because they love the company or because they want to bypass the grind or other reasons I can't think of. DE knows their, I guess, whales will splurge out when they offer something. If devs know monetary compensation awaits, regardless of quality, then they won't bother really.

3 hours ago, moostar95 said:

The majority of the playerbase want to rip and tear the galaxy without any resistance what so ever. De sees warframe as being a game where every frame is equal. but many arent. no matter how many nerfs they do to some frames. its so funny how they never (thankfully) dont mess with mesa, or saryn.  cant kill your money makers after all. 

I wish they'd do far more with the story and world at their disposal. There's a lot that can be done with it...but doing so won't make a profit so why bother. I've moved on to FF14 because at least that game provides a story. Heck, the entire game is heavy with story, characters and world building. I know The New War looks great. At the same time, the past few years have shown it'll be another quest and we'll go back to the usual pointless grind.

Edited by (PSN)DoctorWho_90250
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