From DE perspective, is Yareli ok?

[sunderthefirmament]

1 hour ago, RazerXPrime said:

If you're looking for a frame that's top tier at everything, then Yareli isn't it. Question is, is this a problem? 

No, of course not.  But what is she top tier at?

• CC: No, and not just because other frames do it way better.  Her CC scatters enemies (4) or needs multiple casts, moves slowly, and hits walls uselessly (1).  Her 4 is also bad because although it does group enemies, which is helpful, Yareli cannot take advantage of that grouping to fire her weapons into the mass of enemies (or use other abilities) like Vauban, Nidus, Khora, Zephyr, Gauss, and others with grouping abilities.
• Mobility: No.  I do think that the recent bullet jump dodge on Merulina is helpful, but it's nowhere near enough to compensate for the sheer clunkiness of using a k drive indoors.  In its defense, though, I only glitched into the ceiling once on my last mission as Yareli.
• Damage: Nope.  Not even close.  Aquablades might be tempting for its slash damage, but it's slow, clunky, and gets outclassed very quickly.  Also it can go on any frame in the game through Helminth, so if you're really loving its nice, long duration and guaranteed procs, you could just put it on a frame with a better rest of their kit than Yareli.  Her 4's does have scaling, but it tops out fast and won't perform well in higher level content (which is what many recent updates focus on).  Yareli's passive is nice for boosting secondary damage, but I'd rather play a better gun-frame than her.
• Tanking: Eh, no.  Merulina does make Yareli pretty hard to kill, but it doesn't even come close to Nezha's 3, Rhino's 2, or any other number of tanking abilities.  And becoming that tanky comes with a heavy cost: loss of 2/3 of your weapons, energy, and maneuverability.
• Nightwave Challenge of Getting 20 Kills on a K Drive: Okay, she is the best at this.

 

I'm not asking for Yareli to be the next Xaku (absurdly overpowered with an over-stuffed kit).  But even with the updates, there's still no real reason to use her.  She doesn't have what frames need to be good.

[ReddyDisco]

11 hours ago, Marvelous_A said:

Using her K-drive in tight rooms is horrendous and it's the only thing I remember of her.

Really? you remember nothing else?

[Silligoose]

5 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Considering that Riptide has no duration and subsequently spreads out enemies yet again, it is of less CC value than Airburst or even Telos Boltace's slide attack. As such, it is all but completely a pure damage ability.

Riptide ragdolls enemies as they are pulled in. Upon ejection from the liquid sphere, they get are thrown in the air and the have to go through the recovery animation. In missions, that's 4 - 5 seconds that those enemies are not firing at you, or teammates, or the objective.  That's valuable cc. You can actually alternate Riptide between two groups of enemies and keep them from firing if you really want, but against factions lacking armour, higher numbered groups won't survive more than 2 Riptides. Enemies also aren't thrown all over the place - most end up within around 4 m of the cast point - Aquablade range. Almost as though this is an intended synergy. About 10 % of the enemies caught in bigger groups can be expelled to 6m - 7m. Zephyr's Airbust can be argued to be better, even though the area of effect is smaller and it doesn't have the same damage. 

 

6 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Obviously, that Cold damage is gonna be much lower versus Armor, which both Xaku, Grendel, Ash, and Gauss has options to Ignore. Riptide doesn't, and Aquablades isn't on par with that damage. And to quote the Wiki you mentioned for an example, on Feast's damage:

Now let's not ignore two factions in this game simply because it weakens your argument and doesn't fit your narrative. I've addressed armor and how upfront damage on SP vs armor won't cut the mustard. it's your turn to actually back up your statements. Use some numbers, consider the time to kill. That's important. Blade Storm takes time to kill 20 enemies. Xaku's abilities take time to kill enemies. Gauss takes time to kill enemies with his abilities. Grendel takes time to kill his enemies with abilities. Give those base numbers, then go from there and show how they are increased in practical play if you so choose. The base numbers are important though.

Aquablades isn't on par? Well, 3 Slash procs do 4,725 True Damage over 6 seconds. It takes 0.5 seconds to apply those 3 procs, but due to mechanics, only 3 can be applied per second (see how I don't leave out details that may weaken my argument? Give it a try). Let's break that down: On base, one Bleed proc does 262.5 damage per second. Sounds weak when stated like that - theory crafters will cling to it like flies to s...tuff. You'll get 5 -7 procs on enemies easily when used Synergistically with Riptide and positioning on multiple enemies, which is 1312.5 - 1837.5. We'll use an avg of 6, which tends to be applied in 1.5 seconds due to Aquablades mechanics, which is 1575 True Damage per second to each affected enemy at base sans  procs. Best out there? No. Weak? No. It's going to get the job done when used properly. I'm going to use this number later to address your ridiculous statement regarding non-SP.

8 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but 34,133.33 is more than 29,500, no? And that's with 10 enemies instead of 20. With 20 eaten, you're looking at 67,800 damage - slightly more than Riptide. Bump the level up to 130, Steel Path level, and we get up to 87,133 damage. In fact, Riptide only outshines Feast at levels 43 and below. Kinda. Feast also has a guaranteed Toxin proc, dealing an additional 3x of that damage over its duration, so you can take those Feast numbers and x4 them. If you count that, Riptide only outshines Feast at levels 10 and below. Which is... kinda sad.

Let's not forget the obvious though - if we're looking at that low a level (43), we'll be looking at a lot of overkill damage most of the time. A Grineer Lancer only has an effective health of 6,832 at that level, while a Heavy Gunner has 39,895. Take away the Armor, we're looking at 2,746 and 5,812, respective. Grendel, Gauss, and Xaku can remove Armor, Ash can ignore it, Riptide can't do either so Yareli is stuck with the inadequate Aquablades.

But sure, there might be some low level range where Yareli does better than those frames, but if we're only looking at low level content, Yareli instead has to compete with frames like, say, Ember, Banshee, Khora, and Equinox. Not that "she can nuke low level content" is something worth celebrating.

Excellent. You backed up one of your statements and I learned something. Now check this out: Grendel's ability damage output is greater than Yareli's Riptide. Not hard to admit when one is wrong. Now, do the rest. You made the statements. Back them up, or admit you were wrong.

Again with the cherry picking and the armor and going into mechanics of armor stripping/bypassing that other frames can do. You are going on about it like Yareli has no options when it comes to armor, that she can't do missions with armored units in them, despite Aquablades doing true damage and tools in the game to multiply that damage. 

8 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

I'mma just say, don't underestimate what Prime Sure Footed and a Bramma can accomplish.

Noted. Still, the player would need aim, situational awareness, mechanical skill etc to deal with damage coming form various angles on defensive objectives or to maintain control on certain Interception missions. I stand by my previous statement.

8 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Technically, every frame in the game, including an ability-less Loki, can do fine. By that standard, no frame in the game is bad. That's kinda why we need to look at what the frame offers and accomplishes compared to the others, and thus we can see that Yareli is indeed awful. The very reason she requires those certain skills to do well is because of her innate short-comings, and except for a basic crit buff, she doesn't offer enough to balance out the effort needed. Contrast with frames like Harrow or Mirage who massively reward you for your skills.

We are now touching on the skill floor and skill ceilings of frames.

Skill floor

A skill floor of a character/hero/frame/weapon in a game refers to the player skill and ability required to be effective with that character/hero/frame/weapon.  If you don't possess enough skill to meet the skill floor, you won't be effective. That is by design and having various skill floors for various characters/gear in a game adds variety and interest from various players. The skill floor only plays a part in balance.

Frames that require little effort to be effective, like Hildryn, or Wukong, or Octavia, are low skill floor characters - you don't need a lot of skill to be effective with these frames. Frames that require more skill to be effective, like Harrow or Mirage have higher skill floors - you need more skill with them to be effective. Likewise, weapons like the Bramma and Zarr have low skill floors - you don't need good aim to do well with them, while weapons like Sniper Rifles have higher skill floors - if you can't aim, you won't be effective. 

The Sniper Rifle, like Yareli, has a higher skill floor. Some people enjoy a higher skill floor and appreciate having it in the game -. If you do not yet have the required skill to reach that skill floor, you will struggle. That doesn't mean the sniper rifle needs to be changed to accommodate those who can't aim. Likewise, Yareli doesn't need to be changed because some can't reach her skill floor yet. We don't need another super easy frame - there are enough of them. Not everyone wants to play Octavia where she casts two abilities which does 90% of the work for her.

Skill ceiling

Skill ceiling refers to the skill required to reach maximum effectiveness with a character given perfect play. The higher the skill ceiling, the more difficult it is to get the most out of that character/weapon.  Some would argue the more difficult it is to reach maximum effectiveness, the higher the skill floor, the higher a character's/weapon's maximum power should be, to reward extremely good play. Others argue that the maximum effectiveness should be equal. I lean more to the former, but with parameters. I don't think a frame with skill ceiling twice as high as Octavia's should be twice as powerful - it would not be good for overall balance, but in the context of Warframe and balance, Octavia technically needs to be tuned down, as opposed to all the other Warframes with higher skill ceilings being buffed.

 

10 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Now I've demonstrated why this quote is blatantly false. With numbers. Forget Steel Path - Yareli barely gets to non-SP Mars before her damage is beat, and that's a proven fact.

Her damage does not "get beat" by non-SP Mars. It doesn't even get beaten by SP Sedna. Going back to the 1575 base True Damage per second I've explained earlier, I play SP Sedna a lot with Yareli. Grineer units lvl 130 - lvl 145. Lvl 145 Elite Lancers have about 43,537HP - 46,266 HP and about 7523 Armor -  8,198 Armor. Aquablades bypass Armor, so only the HP is the main focus. No one with a decent grasp of the game is heading into a mission planning to rely on Aquablades without synergy: Viral, Ability Strength. Getting 10 AoE Viral stacks is easy and quick, but we'll go with only 5. That's a damage multiplier of 3 to Health. Ability Strength you can pop to 150 - 200, higher if players want to minmax and forma. Another multiplier of 1.5 - 2, we'll say 1.7, Now the True damage becomes: [Base Damage] x [Proc Damage Multipleir] x [Ability Strength Multiplier] = 1575 x 3 x 1.7 = 8032.5 True Damage per second per enemy via procs on an AoE ability that is added to multiple enemies when used decently. Consider her whole kit and the synergies and there is no issue. I play casually and average anything from 250 - 300 kills per 5 mins on Survival missions solo with Yareli there. If I mess up, if I drop below the skill floor, my effectiveness and kill count drops drastically. I do find it more challenging as I pass 20 mins. I can probably make it easier by using some forma.

Would a scaling buff to Aquablades make it easier? Sure. Is it needed? No. Not everything needs to scale to level cap and not every frame needs to be able to reach it. If anything, no frame should actually be able to reach level cap in my opinion.

You've listed what you consider some powerful abilities in the game, yet you've only managed to actually back-up one of those statements. Trying to back out now? Don't surrender yet. Back up your statements. Should be easy given how "garbage" her damage output is. List those numbers from Xaku, Gauss, Ash. Take an objective look at different factions while you are at it.

 

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

25 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Riptide ragdolls enemies as they are pulled in. Upon ejection from the liquid sphere, they get are thrown in the air and the have to go through the recovery animation. In missions, that's 4 - 5 seconds that those enemies are not firing at you, or teammates, or the objective.  That's valuable cc. (...)

In short, it's less valuable CC than the Lifted status, meaning you spend 100 energy before efficiency to do what your average melee weapon can do. That's no CC to speak of - that's just basic free mini-CC like staggers, knockdowns, and ragdolls. Had it been valuable CC, it would've kept them in place for a duration like her 1 does, though her 1 has its own, previously mentioned issues.

25 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Now let's not ignore two factions in this game simply because it weakens your argument and doesn't fit your narrative. I've addressed armor and how upfront damage on SP vs armor won't cut the mustard. it's your turn to actually back up your statements. Use some numbers, consider the time to kill. That's important. Blade Storm takes time to kill 20 enemies. Xaku's abilities take time to kill enemies. Gauss takes time to kill enemies with his abilities. Grendel takes time to kill his enemies with abilities. Give those base numbers, then go from there and show how they are increased in practical play if you so choose. The base numbers are important though.

I will take you moving on from "highest damage" to "time to kill" that you concede that Yareli's damage falls short compared to those frames. But as for the "upfront damage on SP vs armor won't cut the mustard", no it certainly won't. You need a way to remove or ignore said armor for the damage to get that high, and that's why Riptide "won't cut the mustard", whereas the mentioned frames do.

25 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Aquablades isn't on par? Well, 3 Slash procs do 4,725 True Damage over 6 seconds. It takes 0.5 seconds to apply those 3 procs, but due to mechanics, only 3 can be applied per second (see how I don't leave out details that may weaken my argument? Give it a try). (...)

And you immediately start leaving out details. If you wanna talk "time to kill", bringing up it for Bladestorm and whatnot, you can't simply ignore the limited, unmoddable range of Aquablades. Bladestorm has a marking range of 50m. Aquablades has, what? 1/10th of that radius. You don't have time to ride around your average room and stay long enough on each enemy to build up those Slash procs to outdo Bladestorm in time per kill. And let's not forget that the Aquablade Bleeds are so weak in comparison to Bladestorm's, that the latter commonly does more damage on the first tick than the former over its entire duration. Mine sit at about 18,000 before Helminth boosts, which equals 4 seconds of building up Aquablade Slash procs, and 6 seconds for the last one to run out. Even with Riptide to gather enemies up, if Riptide's limited range allows it and we ignore the inconsistencies that come from Riptide spreading said enemies as well, it's only gonna be in lower levels or versus quite specific numbers of enemies that Bladestorm falls short.

Also, if we don't wanna talk armor, Grendel kills 20 level 180 Corpus Techs in 4 seconds flat. Gauss takes them out in 5. Xaku kills them in about 7 (and Heavy Gunners in 3). Sorry mate, but Yareli's slower than that. I could go on, but that'd risk our posts getting deleted for arguing too much on the forum, so I'll just say read up on those frames yourself instead. 

1 hour ago, Silligoose said:

Her damage does not "get beat" by non-SP Mars. It doesn't even get beaten by SP Sedna.

You say that, but then you spend an entire paragraph not comparing her damage to any other frame, and mixing in outside sources like Viral which is then equally or more accessible to all other frames. In short, you leave out details that weaken your argument. I've already shown how Feast alone outdamages Riptide against all but level 10 enemies, meaning that Riptide does indeed get beat by Feast by the time you hit non-SP Mars. That's an undeniable fact. If you instead wanna talk Aquablades and time to kill, that fact remains because Feast outranges them both.

1 hour ago, Silligoose said:

You've listed what you consider some powerful abilities in the game, yet you've only managed to actually back-up one of those statements. Trying to back out now? Don't surrender yet. Back up your statements. Should be easy given how "garbage" her damage output is. List those numbers from Xaku, Gauss, Ash. Take an objective look at different factions while you are at it.

Another taste of how Yareli's damage is absolutely outdone by her peers - you're welcome. If you think I'm going to go in-dept on how every single one of those frames outclass Yareli, you're wrong. The forum mods wouldn't appreciate it if I did, nor do I need to do it, as it would be like explaining in detail every single weapon that outdoes the DPS of the Sonicor. Skip the snide remarks and present some facts (without leaving out details) that stand up to more than three seconds of scrutiny. Otherwise, if you can't presenting anything new of value, I'll just pre-emptively say "see previous comments" as for why, in fact, Yareli's damage is awful and for why, in fact, Riptide's CC is no CC to speak of.

[stormy505]

4 hours ago, RazerXPrime said:

it were true it would make those people quite a sad bunch.

What's the quote? "50 million registered losers."

 

Kinda off topic, but DE has cultivated a player base that optimizes the fun out of the game. They have made grinding stuff in Warframe so tedious that after the 200 hour mark the only people left are people can stomach the grind. Usually if you're looking at a 10 hr grind for something you're not actively going to make it a 20 hr grind by being inefficient.

Look at how many hours you have in Warframe and also look how close you are to doing everything. Name another game where progress is that slow. Reminder that a game that goes over 100 hours is considered long, wtf is Warframe.

 

[RazerXPrime]

1 hour ago, sunderthefirmament said:

No, of course not.  But what is she top tier at?

• CC: No, and not just because other frames do it way better.  Her CC scatters enemies (4) or needs multiple casts, moves slowly, and hits walls uselessly (1).  Her 4 is also bad because although it does group enemies, which is helpful, Yareli cannot take advantage of that grouping to fire her weapons into the mass of enemies (or use other abilities) like Vauban, Nidus, Khora, Zephyr, Gauss, and others with grouping abilities.
• Mobility: No.  I do think that the recent bullet jump dodge on Merulina is helpful, but it's nowhere near enough to compensate for the sheer clunkiness of using a k drive indoors.  In its defense, though, I only glitched into the ceiling once on my last mission as Yareli.
• Damage: Nope.  Not even close.  Aquablades might be tempting for its slash damage, but it's slow, clunky, and gets outclassed very quickly.  Also it can go on any frame in the game through Helminth, so if you're really loving its nice, long duration and guaranteed procs, you could just put it on a frame with a better rest of their kit than Yareli.  Her 4's does have scaling, but it tops out fast and won't perform well in higher level content (which is what many recent updates focus on).  Yareli's passive is nice for boosting secondary damage, but I'd rather play a better gun-frame than her.
• Tanking: Eh, no.  Merulina does make Yareli pretty hard to kill, but it doesn't even come close to Nezha's 3, Rhino's 2, or any other number of tanking abilities.  And becoming that tanky comes with a heavy cost: loss of 2/3 of your weapons, energy, and maneuverability.
• Nightwave Challenge of Getting 20 Kills on a K Drive: Okay, she is the best at this.

 

I'm not asking for Yareli to be the next Xaku (absurdly overpowered with an over-stuffed kit).  But even with the updates, there's still no real reason to use her.  She doesn't have what frames need to be good.

There's many frames that are not top tier in anything you've listed and they are still fine. Also, I tend to not put much stock in the generic complaints on the forums or some of the salty streamers. Those same people put Nyx at the bottom of the tier list for almost anything in the game, even though she's one of the most powerful frames in the game.

Granted Yareli is a bit underwhelming and her kit feels clunky to use. It's not the things above that make her sub par. It's down to usability and synergy. Nothing in her kit feels really good to use and the interaction between abilities is non existent. Her passive is good though. 200% crit chance boost on secondaries gives her a lot of extra power.

For me I look at it as follows:

Her 1: it's good CC. Yes people want sh!t to be clumped up and have everything operate as a Nidus 2 so they can braindead spam E. I'm not one of those people that wants everything dead in seconds so I can stand still and spam specific combo's till I fall asleep. I think the ability can be tweaked to be better, but it's good CC. Reliability is so-so. Probably what I would like to see improved.

Her 2: well the K drive thing isn't for me in certain tilesets to be sure, but the tankiness is good in low to med level content.

Her 3: good vs low level infested. Doesn't scale so falls off later. It's more of a deterent for melee enemies if anything. Maybe the width of the blades could be increased to make it more reliable.

Her 4: terrible if you ask me in every aspect. It's the one ability I would replace in the helminth system.

Perhaps they made her with open worlds in mind? Not sure.

[SneakyErvin]

4 hours ago, RazerXPrime said:

That's arguably one of the most pointless arguments you can make. This game has 47 frames and will keep growing in that number towards the future. You make make this comment about almost any of the other 46 frames. So this is definitely not the "main" issue.

Not really. I said whatever role she's implied to fill can be done better by another frame. Most other relases are atleast sidegrades if they arent direct upgrades over the old, Yareli doesnt even achiev that, there isnt a reason to really use her at all. So her situation doesnt really apply to the rest. She doesnt know what she wants to be, which has in turn infected her kit setup aswell. So it is very much the main issue for her because it taints everything else with her, making her lack an actual role, resulting in a disjointed kit that is also weak overall.

 

 

 

[RazerXPrime]

9 minutes ago, stormy505 said:

What's the quote? "50 million registered losers."

 

Kinda off topic, but DE has cultivated a player base that optimizes the fun out of the game. They have made grinding stuff in Warframe so tedious that after the 200 hour mark the only people left are people can stomach the grind. Usually if you're looking at a 10 hr grind for something you're not actively going to make it a 20 hr grind by being inefficient.

Look at how many hours you have in Warframe and also look how close you are to doing everything. Name another game where progress is that slow. Reminder that a game that goes over 100 hours is considered long, wtf is Warframe.

 

This ties into my previous comments. Some people cannot stand the grind and need everything today. So they min max and only going for that next thing and mindlessly farm for it. If I played the game that way I would have stopped a long while ago. That's just torturing myself. If I'm not having fun while "grinding" then what's the point of playing the game in the first place? So don't really min max or play for 100% efficiency unless it's necessary for something specific.

[RazerXPrime]

10 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Not really. I said whatever role she's implied to fill can be done better by another frame. Most other relases are atleast sidegrades if they arent direct upgrades over the old, Yareli doesnt even achiev that, there isnt a reason to really use her at all. So her situation doesnt really apply to the rest. She doesnt know what she wants to be, which has in turn infected her kit setup aswell. So it is very much the main issue for her because it taints everything else with her, making her lack an actual role, resulting in a disjointed kit that is also weak overall.

Don't think DE creates frames with a role in mind. But I'll humor you. What roles do you think exist for warframes? Let's check them against the current list of frames and see where Yareli stands vs the rest. I'll wager she's not at the top, but there will be plenty of frames that do something that another frame does better.

[SneakyErvin]

I mean, they could have easily fixed her and given her a unified theme/role.

1. Decent enough as a #1. Fits somewhat in a mobile frame kit. Fire and forget and all that. No real need to change it.

2. Makes her a bit more beefy while on the move. Fits, but I still dislike the whole k-board for combat thing.

3. Total waste of a skill slot as it is. An easy fix here would be to make it scale as well as flechette orb does for vauban. This would make her a risk vs reward frame that wouldnt rely on being stationary, but instead would promote grinding around on the fish and keeping within blade distance of things while pew pew pewing with her secondary.

4. I get it, water theme... but... the rest of her implies mobility. Maybe make it a buff instead that works similar to "Dust Devils" in Diablo 3, little tornadoes that follow the Barbarian and deals damage as he passes through things. It would fit with Merulia, it would be like an ultimate Fire Walker but with better damage and possibly some vaccuum to suck in the mobs into the wake. Have a vortex at the back of merulina this sucks enemies in, and as Yareli and Merulina moves they leave a trail of damaging liquid behind them (similar to fire Walker). If Merulina is replaced by a subsumed skill the vortex and its vaccum effect will be removed but Yareli will still leave a liquid high damage trail behind her.

[(PSN)Unstar]

At present, Yareli's mobility issues seem to have been fixed, which leaves her as being a tanky CC frame with a unique mobility gimmick.  Which honestly isn't a terrible place to be.  Would it be great if her abilities could deal damage to higher level enemies?  Of course, I've love to see some changes along those lines.  But even if she doesn't get more buffs, she's now in a state where I think she's completely usable.

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, RazerXPrime said:

Don't think DE creates frames with a role in mind. But I'll humor you. What roles do you think exist for warframes? Let's check them against the current list of frames and see where Yareli stands vs the rest. I'll wager she's not at the top, but there will be plenty of frames that do something that another frame does better.

I already explained that in the post you quoted. She falls into the more stationary dps/cc role, similar to Vauban. Merulina and Aquablades are more or less useless. Merulina is simply there as a survival tool, since if you wanna actually make use of Yareli's skills to group things up effectively you need to be stationary alot and spam. Sure you can glide around and utilize her passive with a secondary, but at that point you use 1 skill out of your kit, maybe 2 if you wanna rely on random seeking CC that practically serves no purpose.

#4 for vaccuum along with wiggling left and right to keep the secondary buff up is the most useful way to play her. But then again you really only use 1 active skill aside from Merulina. I found most use out of Yareli with gloom replacing merulina, then ignoring her passive and just spamming her #4 with an AoE gun equipped. 

[(PSN)Sswoop-]

Being able to complete the star chart shouldn't be what qualifies a frame as acceptable. Any single frame can do that. In fact, with just an aoe weapon, you can handle almost any content that isn't arbys, sorties, or sp without even using abilities. So the star chart should never be the measure for a frame's effectiveness. 

[RazerXPrime]

12 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I already explained that in the post you quoted. She falls into the more stationary dps/cc role, similar to Vauban. Merulina and Aquablades are more or less useless. Merulina is simply there as a survival tool, since if you wanna actually make use of Yareli's skills to group things up effectively you need to be stationary alot and spam. Sure you can glide around and utilize her passive with a secondary, but at that point you use 1 skill out of your kit, maybe 2 if you wanna rely on random seeking CC that practically serves no purpose.

#4 for vaccuum along with wiggling left and right to keep the secondary buff up is the most useful way to play her. But then again you really only use 1 active skill aside from Merulina. I found most use out of Yareli with gloom replacing merulina, then ignoring her passive and just spamming her #4 with an AoE gun equipped. 

Ok, sooo stationary CC...

Let's have a looksie.

Titania has stationary CC. Possibly worse than Yareli in this regard. Outclassed by other CC frames.

Gara has stationary CC, definitely worse than Yareli. Outclassed by other CC frames.

Hydroid. Well his CC sucks too, it's worse than Yareli if you ask me. I rather hit a target that's not flailing around.

 

Anyway. The problem is looking at roles and that is because they don't exist. Warframe has no roles. Yareli's kit doesn't work for different reasons. Her kit was built around her 2nd ability, but there's no synergy with her other skills. If they fix that then Yareli because a lot better to use. Thing is. I don't like her second ability and so do a lot of others because using K drive in a lot of tilesets is very cumbersome.

[PublikDomain]

6 hours ago, RazerXPrime said:

Not really a tank at higher levels. At anything below level 50 she's quite tanky. But higher levels just kill Merulina too fast. Kind of wondering what the thought process was here.

That's kind of the issue, lol. The game doesn't end at lvl50.

And it's a simple fix, too. If Merulina just inherited Yareli's DR from armor, Adaptation, abilities, etc. then 11k HP would be quite a lot to work with.

[PublikDomain]

27 minutes ago, RazerXPrime said:

Her kit was built around her 2nd ability, but there's no synergy with her other skills.

I don't know about that... You can just as easily subsume off Merulina for something else and nothing really happens. Her 1/3/4 continue to function as they did before and she remains the cute water frame. Her theme might be tied to Merulina, but her abilities aren't designed around it. Which is fine, and preferable, because some people are always gonna dislike K-Drives. Merulina, at least as it relates to her other powers, is fine. It's got a little synergy by making her other powers able to cast smoother, but not so much synergy that it can't be replaced by something else. It's the missing synergy between her 1/3/4 that needs the most attention. Edit: And, of course, Merulina's functions as it relates to itself.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

3 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

And it's a simple fix, too. If Merulina just inherited Yareli's DR from armor, Adaptation, abilities, etc. then 11k HP would be quite a lot to work with.

Or just bump it up to 90-95% DR for Yareli, and give it a damage absorption period like Warding Halo and Iron Skin have. Heck, even Snow Globe and fricking Molt got that, so it's frankly absurd that Merulina doesn't. These are the kind of inexcusable inadequacies that Yareli's burdened with for no good reason.

[PublikDomain]

Just now, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Or just bump it up to 90-95% DR for Yareli, and give it a damage absorption period like Warding Halo and Iron Skin have. Heck, even Snow Globe and fricking Molt got that, so it's frankly absurd that Merulina doesn't. These are the kind of inexcusable inadequacies that Yareli's burdened with for no good reason.

Either/or.

[RazerXPrime]

43 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

That's kind of the issue, lol. The game doesn't end at lvl50.

And it's a simple fix, too. If Merulina just inherited Yareli's DR from armor, Adaptation, abilities, etc. then 11k HP would be quite a lot to work with.

That's actually not a bad idea.

36 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

I don't know about that... You can just as easily subsume off Merulina for something else and nothing really happens. Her 1/3/4 continue to function as they did before and she remains the cute water frame. Her theme might be tied to Merulina, but her abilities aren't designed around it. Which is fine, and preferable, because some people are always gonna dislike K-Drives. Merulina, at least as it relates to her other powers, is fine. It's got a little synergy by making her other powers able to cast smoother, but not so much synergy that it can't be replaced by something else. It's the missing synergy between her 1/3/4 that needs the most attention. Edit: And, of course, Merulina's functions as it relates to itself.

Yea I worded that poorly. I meant to say that Yareli was crafted around her K drive. Which is not reflected in her kit.

 

[Silligoose]

 

 

45 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

In short, it's less valuable CC than the Lifted status, meaning you spend 100 energy before efficiency to do what your average melee weapon can do. That's no CC to speak of - that's just basic free mini-CC like staggers, knockdowns, and ragdolls. Had it been valuable CC, it would've kept them in place for a duration like her 1 does, though her 1 has its own, previously mentioned issues.

CC means crowd control. That's exactly what Riptide does in addition to its damage. It controls the enemy's position and prevents them from attacking for 4 - 5 seconds. The average melee weapon cannot cc enemies in an area with a diameter of 30m, up to 40m away from your Warframe. Why are you even trying to debate this point? 

 

49 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

I will take you moving on from "highest damage" to "time to kill" that you concede that Yareli's damage falls short compared to those frames. But as for the "upfront damage on SP vs armor won't cut the mustard", no it certainly won't. You need a way to remove or ignore said armor for the damage to get that high, and that's why Riptide "won't cut the mustard", whereas the mentioned frames do.

How can I concede when you have yet to present your numbers for the other frames? Again you are ignoring other factions and clinging to armor. I addressed that before you even mentioned it. You aren't making some massive revelation. This isn't new information. Also, it was never about "highest damage, was about "damage output". "There is no "jumping" to time to kill. Time was has been a factor in our discussion from the start. Here's what I said in my first reply to you and your choice of frames that were supposed to show how "garbage" Yareli's damage output is. I've highlighted exactly where I speak of time, since you conveniently missed it:

15 hours ago, Silligoose said:

20 enemies into Riptide is 2000 Cold damage in ticks, 27500 damage in burst in the liquid sphere , totaling 29 500 Cold Damage at base on each enemy in less than 2 seconds. I like and play most of the frames you mentioned. In terms of abilities, Xaku can't do that. Grendel can't do that. Ash can't do that. Gauss can't do that. These frames can't match that with their abilities, let alone only one ability. They either lack the damage, or require some sort combo to pull that off, or take more time to do it.

 

1 hour ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

And you immediately start leaving out details. If you wanna talk "time to kill", bringing up it for Bladestorm and whatnot, you can't simply ignore the limited, unmoddable range of Aquablades. Bladestorm has a marking range of 50m. Aquablades has, what? 1/10th of that radius. You don't have time to ride around your average room and stay long enough on each enemy to build up those Slash procs to outdo Bladestorm in time per kill. And let's not forget that the Aquablade Bleeds are so weak in comparison to Bladestorm's, that the latter commonly does more damage on the first tick than the former over its entire duration. Mine sit at about 18,000 before Helminth boosts, which equals 4 seconds of building up Aquablade Slash procs, and 6 seconds for the last one to run out. Even with Riptide to gather enemies up, if Riptide's limited range allows it and we ignore the inconsistencies that come from Riptide spreading said enemies as well, it's only gonna be in lower levels or versus quite specific numbers of enemies that Bladestorm falls short.

Also, if we don't wanna talk armor, Grendel kills 20 level 180 Corpus Techs in 4 seconds flat. Gauss takes them out in 5. Xaku kills them in about 7 (and Heavy Gunners in 3). Sorry mate, but Yareli's slower than that. I could go on, but that'd risk our posts getting deleted for arguing too much on the forum, so I'll just say read up on those frames yourself instead. 

As stated above, time was always in the equation. It was damage and the time it takes to deal that damage. I've brought it up against every single frame you chose. I know you don't want address it and give actual numbers, because it would mean you acknowledging you were wrong. You've been deflecting during pretty much our whole discussion as a result. You are doing it again by trying to deflect away from damage and time to range.

I'll do Xaku for you. We've established Riptide does 29,500 Cold Damage on each of the 20 enemies in less than 2 seconds at base, the cast time is 1.75s to be exact. Total damage output is 590,000 in 1.75s, spread across 20 enemies.

Xaku's Grasp of Lohk (the scaling ability you were referring to) disarms 6 enemies (a form cc btw). Each weapon does [Base Damage] x [Ability Strength] x [Enemy Level], so we'll use it against the higher SP content in non-endurance runs, say lvl 135:  50 x 135 = 6750 per gun, firing every 0.83 seconds. 6 guns, so a total of 40, 500 single target damage every 0.83 seconds at base. Well, clearly not as good as Riptide against a mob of 20 enemies, even if we add the Vast Untime's 50% bonus damage it isn't even close. Apparently this "garbage" in your eyes then as well. I disagree, but you do you.

As you are reading this, you already knew Grasp of Lohk couldn't hold a candle to Riptide within the parameters of the comparison, because you already checked when you checked Grendel. Then you thought of using Deny instead, since you didn't specify the ability. Unfortunately:

Deny Damage output: [Base Damage] x [Ability Strength] x [Number of Void replica + 1] x [Void Damage Vulnerability] = 4000 x 7 = 28000.
Just shy of 29,500. You thought about adding the Void Damage Vulnerability to bring it to 42,000, even if it means adding another ability to finally surpass Riptide, but you realized not only is it another ability to use, to get that damage up to 42,000, even with the higher damage per target, you aren't realistically hitting 20 enemies regularly on missions with Deny. At least you had that insight.

I see you've decided to go the endurance route against with your lvl 180 enemies and neglect to present actual damage and associated time for that damage to be put out. in non-endurance runs. Back up your statements with damage number at base and time. Grendel I believe, since you've given the numbers. Your musings regarding Xaku and Gauss mean nothing.

1 hour ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

You say that, but then you spend an entire paragraph not comparing her damage to any other frame, and mixing in outside sources like Viral which is then equally or more accessible to all other frames. In short, you leave out details that weaken your argument. I've already shown how Feast alone outdamages Riptide against all but level 10 enemies, meaning that Riptide does indeed get beat by Feast by the time you hit non-SP Mars. That's an undeniable fact. If you instead wanna talk Aquablades and time to kill, that fact remains because Feast outranges them both.

I showed you something very simple: The damage output Riptide realistically has at base in SP missions and the time it takes to do it. I challenged you to present the numbers from the abilities of your chosen frames to back up your statements. You checked and saw you were wrong on many of the choices, so instead you deflect and go off on some tangent: You pick one ability and cherry a specific set of circumstances for which that ability is not suited, then attempt to attribute the short-coming of said ability in said circumstances to the entire kit.  When you go off on a tangent and decide to add variables, like armor, I address those variables. Stop deflecting, stop going on tangents, and I won't need to correct you. 

 

1 hour ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Another taste of how Yareli's damage is absolutely outdone by her peers - you're welcome. If you think I'm going to go in-dept on how every single one of those frames outclass Yareli, you're wrong. The forum mods wouldn't appreciate it if I did, nor do I need to do it, as it would be like explaining in detail every single weapon that outdoes the DPS of the Sonicor. Skip the snide remarks and present some facts (without leaving out details) that stand up to more than three seconds of scrutiny. Otherwise, if you can't presenting anything new of value, I'll just pre-emptively say "see previous comments" as for why, in fact, Yareli's damage is awful and for why, in fact, Riptide's CC is no CC to speak of.

I don't think you are going to go in-depth into the abilities you claimed makes Yareli's Riptide look trash. You aren't even willing to skim the surface, because you will prove yourself wrong. I've done that for you with Xaku. You're welcome. You can hide behind the excuse of the moderators, but it is just another flimsy, transparent attempt at deflection. Speaking of deflection and another tangent you went on: Feast can only pull in enemies up to 25m away from Grendel at base. Riptide can can pull in enemies into the liquid sphere up to 55m away from Yareli (40m cast range + 15m pull range).

Based on your under-estimation of her damage, range and your lack of awareness regarding the value of various forms of cc she has, or even recognizing what cc is, I'm beginning to think you say Yareli is awful, because you cannot reach the skill floor yet.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

26 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

-snip-

As said, the mods don't appreciate endless arguing, so I'm going to be brief.

• Being able to place the CC far away from you doesn't mean much when the CC's awful. It'd be the same as saying Decoy is on par with or better than Molt simply because it can be placed further away.
• I won't go into detail on every single frame because this is a Yareli thread, not a Grendel/Ash/Xaku/etc thread. PS: I never used Deny.
• If you factor in time, Riptide sits at 16857 DPS on each of 20 enemies, SP level 135 and no defense taken into account. Under the same conditions, Feast sits at 36186 DPS, as per previously outlined formulas. Feast outdoes Riptide.
• Speaking of which, saying that "Riptide can can pull in enemies into the liquid sphere up to 55m away from Yareli compared to Feast's 25m is quite a dishonest skew of reality since that intentionally leaves out the fact that said range doesn't apply to all enemies in a 55m radius around Yareli, only those within at most 30m of one another in a specific spot. By that logic, Airburst can pull in enemies into one spot up to 108m away from Zephyr, ignoring that the actual area of effect is a mere 8m in radius. See Decoy vs. Molt above. As such, Feast's AoE > Riptide's AoE.

All in all though, you can sneak in little insults here and there while trying to say that GoL ain't that good, but let's not forget you've already debunked yourself there.

19 hours ago, Silligoose said:

It's hard to argue against scaling abilities, as the counter-argument can simply be "Yeah but vs level cap enemies Ability x does millions of damage". I'll concede scaling damage abilities will probably outshine non-scaling damage abilities in endurance runs that exceed an hour

Or less defensively worded:

Quote

I concede that Yareli's damage will inevitably fall short of scaling damage, because Yareli's doesn't scale.

And as proven with math, Riptide falls short of Feast past level 10. As for whatever rest you brought up, see previous replies.

[Teridax68]

On 2021-09-09 at 3:39 AM, (NSW)Greybones said:

I feel like DE will mainly design for a thing to be able to complete tasks set before it. I don't have Yareli yet, but it sounds like she can do most content, period.

A warframe with no abilities or passive and the same stats as Ember can do "most content". That's not a testament to the power of any individual warframe, that just shows the high baseline amount of power we have even when not using our abilities, thanks to our weapons and mods. If Yareli's kit doesn't boost her much beyond that baseline, it's not very good, and to this day that is still the case. There is an entire spectrum of power between useless and Mesa/Saryn levels of excessive, and she could stand to benefit from a few more changes without turning into the latter. Moreover, I'd argue her problems right now aren't just with her power (though there's that), but with her usability, as Merulina still remains an incredibly clunky ability despite being the crux of her entire playstyle, and her 4 still lacks synergy with the rest of her kit.

[Hypernaut1]

I'm having fun with her. Screw all those numbers you guys are talking about. 

If it comes down to a difficult mission I cant complete, maybe I'll just use another frame. Why the drama about her not being the absolute best frame in the game? 

Just have fun with the character. Not everything is meant to be the next meta. 

[Digressive]

Locking thread due to a lot of arguing back and forth.

Thanks