Feedback: Ghoul Saw

[Acersecomic]

Buff EVERYTHING on the weapon. As it is right now fully modded and buffed by some frame ability it does less than a half modded Halicar Wraith.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

There's a lot of issues with the Ghoul Saw and its stance. 

• The neutral combo forces you to move when it should be the combo where you just bear down on the enemy with the saw. 
• The forward combo just holds the saw out in front and has a narrow hit box. 
• The neutral block combo should let you keep spinning, especially considering one of the issues people are having is the incredibly slow attack speed on the stance causes you to have to pay a lot of attention to how much you're hitting the melee button because it queues up its slow attacks into eternity.  Just let us spin.
• The actual fun part where you get to ride the saw doesn't last very long and has a super slow motion slam attack afterward.  People want to ride the saw.  
• All of these things happen far too slowly, especially for a status weapon.  Slow status weapons are trash.  
• For the uninitiated, weapon stances actually add damage multipliers to the different attacks in each combo.  This is one of the many reasons why melee is so much stronger than guns.  For instance, the first two hits in the neutral combo for Crimson Dervish (one handed sword stance) each hit for 300% damage.  The multipliers in Butcher's Revelry are garbage.  This also doesn't help anything.
• The stats are honestly too low on status and crit to even be a good hybrid weapon, especially considering the not-so-great damage/attack speed ratio.

But I think the weapon might actually be broken.  I figured everyone was just complaining because it wasn't meta strong and it was still maybe a decent weapon, but it's not.  I built it the same way I built my Ether Sword since they have pretty comparable stats.  My Ether Sword handles SP enemies with ease.  The Ghoul Saw struggles against even regular high level Corrupted Heavy Gunners.  I think among all its other major issues, Condition Overload is not working with the weapon.  I can summon 20 level 180 Exo Gokstad Officers, highest enemy EHP I know of in the Simulacrum and massacre them with my Ether Sword.  I barely make a dent with the Ghoul Saw and I've built them to have nearly identical sheet stats.

Something is wrong with the weapon besides it just being mediocre.  I think there's some bugs happening here as well as all the other issues.

[TheGrimCorsair]

8 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

There's a lot of issues with the Ghoul Saw and its stance. 

• The neutral combo forces you to move when it should be the combo where you just bear down on the enemy with the saw. 
• The forward combo just holds the saw out in front and has a narrow hit box. 
• The neutral block combo should let you keep spinning, especially considering one of the issues people are having is the incredibly slow attack speed on the stance causes you to have to pay a lot of attention to how much you're hitting the melee button because it queues up its slow attacks into eternity.  Just let us spin.
• The actual fun part where you get to ride the saw doesn't last very long and has a super slow motion slam attack afterward.  People want to ride the saw.  
• All of these things happen far too slowly, especially for a status weapon.  Slow status weapons are trash.  
• For the uninitiated, weapon stances actually add damage multipliers to the different attacks in each combo.  This is one of the many reasons why melee is so much stronger than guns.  For instance, the first two hits in the neutral combo for Crimson Dervish (one handed sword stance) each hit for 300% damage.  The multipliers in Butcher's Revelry are garbage.  This also doesn't help anything.
• The stats are honestly too low on status and crit to even be a good hybrid weapon, especially considering the not-so-great damage/attack speed ratio.

But I think the weapon might actually be broken.  I figured everyone was just complaining because it wasn't meta strong and it was still maybe a decent weapon, but it's not.  I built it the same way I built my Ether Sword since they have pretty comparable stats.  My Ether Sword handles SP enemies with ease.  The Ghoul Saw struggles against even regular high level Corrupted Heavy Gunners.  I think among all its other major issues, Condition Overload is not working with the weapon.  I can summon 20 level 180 Exo Gokstad Officers, highest enemy EHP I know of in the Simulacrum and massacre them with my Ether Sword.  I barely make a dent with the Ghoul Saw and I've built them to have nearly identical sheet stats.

Something is wrong with the weapon besides it just being mediocre.  I think there's some bugs happening here as well as all the other issues.

I can't speak much to damage of it as I haven't put it to much, so take this bit with a grain of salt, but I've been finding it feels mediocre on that front as a Banshee running high strength+neutral range, Savage Silence, and Gloom (which thanks to the slow extends the vulnerability window for Savage Silence substantially). It kills 'em, but it never feels like it has much oompf in doing so.

The bigger thing to me, anyways, is the combo build-up which seems way out of wack with its attack speed. Short of Ensaring a wave or so of enemies and spinning on them a bunch of times, it really takes an age to build up, and feels worse still to try and maintain a combo multiplier with.

It does a great job of feeling like a big, bulky weapon and the stance works pretty well to that affect, but the short range and lack of payoff on attacks don't feel great.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

1 minute ago, TheGrimCorsair said:

I can't speak much to damage of it as I haven't put it to much, so take this bit with a grain of salt, but I've been finding it feels mediocre on that front as a Banshee running high strength+neutral range, Savage Silence, and Gloom (which thanks to the slow extends the vulnerability window for Savage Silence substantially).

The bigger thing to me, anyways, is the combo build-up which seems way out of wack with its attack speed. Short of Ensaring a wave or so of enemies and spinning on them a bunch of times, it really takes an age to build up, and feels worse still to try and maintain a combo multiplier with.

It does a great job of feeling like a big, bulky weapon and the stance works pretty well to that affect, but the short range and lack of payoff on attacks don't feel great.

Sovereign Outcast has an attack in one of its combos where the thrown tonfa spins and hits multiple times in rapid succession.  I get the swings themselves feel "heavier" when the weapon is slower but there's no reason the weapon can't hit multiple times per swing like...  Something that spins...  Like a saw...  I also really do feel like the combos are in the wrong slots.  Neutral combo where I'm supposed to be standing still moves me forward but the forward neutral combo doesn't do anything but hold the saw up and bear down on the enemy?  Those really need to be swapped.  

They need to fix whatever it is that is genuinely broken, still probably buff it and rework the stance or it's just going to be a meme weapon forever.

[Verreater]

Oh, Condition Overload works fine, its just that the stance has pathetically low DPS.

Iron Phoenix will deal like 3-4 times as much DPS and Ether sword has basically the same base damage as Ghoulsaw, but with much more slash.

 

Oh, and most neutral combos move you forwards slightly, which is actually nice, as neutral combos tend to be stronger than forwards combos. So being able to spam the stronger attack while still moving to the next enemy is very valuable.

[Quimoth]

I'm just completely in the dark as to why our saw looks like it literally spins to hit enemies a dozen times per strike yet only applying one damage instance per strike. I was hoping it would be a bit more like the panthera alt-fire (but then melee, thus stronger). It is a funny gimmick weapon though.

 

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

• The neutral combo forces you to move when it should be the combo where you just bear down on the enemy with the saw. 
• The forward combo just holds the saw out in front and has a narrow hit box. 

i mean, that's like, Stances in a nutshell. they're just fundamentally designed wrong. so many of them move forward with Neutral and don't move with Forward, despite being completely counter intuitive.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

5 hours ago, Skaleek said:

Different teams. The animation team usually does a really good job and then the numbers/balance guys come in and say wouldn't it be cool if this huge ass saw had less range than a sword?

Which is basically the same as prioritizing having a good animation team over a good balance team.

[Skaleek]

4 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Which is basically the same as prioritizing having a good animation team over a good balance team.

I think it's not a matter of prioritization, I think it's kinda where the chips fell in terms of talent. It's not like the animation team is allocated more resources, they just do better job. This is all speculation we don't really know how DE allocates its resources, all we see is the same thing happening over and over.

[Andele3025]

BTW, stance almost entirely a mishmash of other stances with arm bones locked in heavy/AW gun mode:
Forward combo is gunblade shoot+claw uppercut
static combo is 2h nikana + Majestic Abandon and Crowd Fall
Static block combo is reverse+regular Broken Bull spins with Resplendent Calma rise slam
Forward block combo finale/slam is Bold Reprise
Oh and heavy is the glaive Rising Moon/non SO tonfla rising spin (forgot stance name sorry) but again, arms locked and really slowed down (this one IMO is very smart case of reuse since you wouldnt expect

For short, only the ride animation is unique and it too seems just a decently modified kdrive crouch.

Noone of this would be a problem if it werent mashed together with animation locks as glue and given proper properties with how WF handlies input que.
Well ok i lie a bit, the fact that ride isnt the heavy attack and lets you just keep riding forever (but just being terrible damage at low combo) is a problem in terms of potential fun factor lost, but hey w/e.

[Andele3025]

11 hours ago, Skaleek said:

No one's talking about this but base range of 2.15 is pretty stupid. Some of the lowest ranges base and its one of the biggest weapons i've ever wielded. I assume this is to balance the 1.0 follow through but this weapon is also sloooow.

Everyone uses PReach thus folks used to old melee on non whips dont have a problem if it gets over 4.4~4.5m range (from muscle memory at least) id assume.

[Skaleek]

1 minute ago, Andele3025 said:

Everyone uses PReach thus folks used to old melee on non whips dont have a problem if it gets over 4.4~4.5m range (from muscle memory at least) id assume.

Heh, I use primed reach with its 5.15 range, its still bad. Primed Reach would almost be considered a bandaid mod just to make the animations visually connect properly.

[VoidArkhangel]

Agree with everything OP said and they should speed up the animations too, also I wonder why we cant throw the saw as a glaive, I mean the Ghoul with this weapon can : /

[(PSN)DidacoJack]

Rictus' Wraith

• Multipliers need to look at least like this:
  400% - 300% - 300% - 500%
  Speed wise, the first hit seems to be on par with the first hits in the same combo type of both hammer stances, and both of those have 400%.
  The 100% on the second attack seems to be screaming "do not commit to this combo!"

Ghoul Rush

• Pretty weird how this one behaves, and by far (for me) the party pooper. The attack moves you forward if you don't give any other movement input, but at the same time it is completely free-movement should you actually give an input.
  And more often than not, that forced forward movement results in moving past the target, missing the attacks and forcing you in a frustrating repositioning.
  
  PLEASE remove the forced movement on no movement input and let the attack be completely free movement (like the first 2 attacks of Cutting Thrice in Wise Razor stance, for example). That way it would be easier to approach the enemy by buffering two attacks and then plan on the successive attacks to use (just an example).
   
• Split each attack in 3 hits with a 50% multiplier each. It would help the feeling of using and actual circular saw, and help the weapon with a more reliable of getting status procs, other than using the Heavy attack, which would consume the counter.
   
• I can understand the low values, damage wasn't meant to go with Forward Combos. I don't think the hitbox it's as narrow or short as people make it to be, hits things at the expected distance (with Primed Reach, obviously). I'd say the hitboxes are the same or wider than the ones in the first attack of Vulpine Mask's Forward Combo.

 Rip 'N Ride

• Up the multiplier to 300% or 400% on the hit during the riding phase. Also people: you can roll out of the final slam, if you don't want to commit to it.

 

Reciprocator

• Probably give it some buff to the second attack, to reward players that commit to it. The first attack is actually cool as it is, as it's a multi hitting 360° attack on a weapon with no restrictions on follow through.

 

Heavy attack

• I'm not sure about this but I think not all hits share the same hitbox length. I tried with Primed Reach on, but it's difficult to tell if some attacks are missing, given the multi-hit nature of the attack.

 

Jump attack

• Only one attack? Mitosid mod set when?
  Also, please remove the forced forward movement on Hold Back + Jump Attack, for basically the same reason aforementioned, except it's even harder to land hit because you're moving tri-dimensionally.

[Verreater]

vor einer Stunde schrieb (PSN)DidacoJack:

Ghoul Rush

• Pretty weird how this one behaves, and by far (for me) the party pooper. The attack moves you forward if you don't give any other movement input, but at the same time it is completely free-movement should you actually give an input.
  And more often than not, that forced forward movement results in moving past the target, missing the attacks and forcing you in a frustrating repositioning.
  
  PLEASE remove the forced movement on no movement input and let the attack be completely free movement (like the first 2 attacks of Cutting Thrice in Wise Razor stance, for example). That way it would be easier to approach the enemy by buffering two attacks and then plan on the successive attacks to use (just an example).

That is one very weird part.

Like, iirc the Machete stance has something similar where you are in a 'walking' animation, but I do think you can't run while using it.
Meanwhile Swords/Polearms/Glaives have a combo with free movement but you can also practically stand still.

Wouldn't that be as easy as separating the lower and upper body movement?

(Luckily there is no good reason to actually use that attack against single targets because of how weak it is...)

[PhillTheVoid]

The Ghoul Saw is fundamentally a fun gimmick weapon. Let's lean into it a bit harder. 

Amalgam Ripkas True Steel has a gimmick effect that grants your whole kit a 100% chance to do the slash gib on kill. Please just copy/paste that code into the Ghoul Saw to make it an innate feature. 

The rest of you can worry about damage output. I'm here to ride Nekros triumphantly into battle on a giant saw, leaving only a trail of body parts and loot in my wake. If it's going to stay a lower-level fun weapon, please make it the most fun lower-level farming weapon. 

[LS95]

C'mon DE, getting us all hyped up for a cool weapon only for it to just be barely usable?

Multipliers would be fine-ish where they're at if you just gave all the stance attacks(except the forward-blocking, that feels like it makes sense as a big single hit while riding) multiple damage ticks akin to Panthera's Alt-Fire, maybe half that amount if that seems like too much.

Forced slash procs would be a nice addition, but Stat Chance is serviceable to build up with mods as-is so it's not a huge issue if it forces or not. Maybe just buff that up to like 30%, since it feels like it's a status melee if forced slash feels too overkill?

Maybe bump Crit Chance and Crit Mult up to about 15%/2x, it's a giant working circular saw and the crits on it just feel so wimpy with that little base multiplier.

QoL for holding the forward and the Blocking-forward to loop them without destroying my mouse and keyboard would be nice. Maybe give the standing "Evil Dead stab and rev" Heavy looping too with a combo point diminish on each loop, just for experimenting?

Just...It's such a cool weapon, and it hurts so bad to see it suck like this.

[PhillTheVoid]

Maybe cause that toxin/cold cloud the ghouls have on heavy attack kill too. 

[Leqesai]

5 minutes ago, LS95 said:

Forced slash procs would be a nice addition

Yes.

I agree that the weapon is disappointing. It is fun to meme with it but riding the thing is incredibly awkward. The ground slam at the end is completely useless. It is slow, difficult to aim, and doesn't do much damage compared to regular attacks and/or heavy attacks which execute much faster.

[GreyEnneract]

When a giant saw has less range than a machete.

This entire year has been amazing in a negative way.

[Teridax68]

After seeing the weapon showcased on stream, I was looking forward to trying the Ghoulsaw, but so far it's been severely disappointing. The main culprit I think is the stance:

• Every single move in Butcher's Revelry is incredibly clunky and oddly framed. It's not possible to continually attack enemies as per the devstream, and one has to instead saw at enemies for a few seconds at a time. Even more damning is the saw ride, which stops after only a short period of time to end in a crappy slam attack.
• The damage multipliers on the stance are awful. They may look okay at a glance, until one realizes they take several times longer to trigger compared to okay stances that can land equal or greater multipliers, plus guaranteed procs, in far shorter order.

So effectively, what I wanted (and what it seems most people wanted) was a saw that one could continuously press down to rip enemies apart, or ride into the sunset, and what I got was this awkward, janky weapon that almost feels like it's hitting with blunt force due to the attempts at standardizing its moveset relative to other stances. It makes me feel like stances themselves are not a great idea if they prevent melee weapons from doing what they're supposed to do.

My suggestion would be to rework the stance entirely: one should be able to hold down the melee attack button for the saw to attack continuously, only stopping if one releases the attack button, and the same should apply during the gapcloser (one should only stop riding the saw when one releases the attack button). I do not care for any other move in the stance, these are the only two that would matter to me for the weapon to feel like it's doing what it's supposed to. It'd be good for the continuous attack to have a suitable damage multiplier as well.

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

Dunno, I'm thinking the reason DE didn't do the "hold attack to continously saw" is because they wanna make a Kuva Ghoulsaw with a flying boomerang blade (like what the Ghouls do) bit like a glaive.

Ngl I'm hoping they don't do the "continous attack" and instead add multiple damage ticks per attack. (Still still hoping for that boomerang sawblade on Kuva Ghoulsaw, or Lichsaw)

[Skaleek]

Way more work to revisit and restructure the animations. Just make the weapon faster base or add multi hit, and tune those stances numbers and saws base numbers up. Changing a few numbers in the code shouldn't take much work. I'm sure players will live with clunky stances if the weapon performs.

[ReacesPieces]

Listen man, I don't care about anything else about the saw. But please for the love of all things holy let me ride the saw.

 

I don't care if it doesn't deal damage when I do, I don't care if it takes energy, I don't care what it takes.

Just remove the slam, and make it sustained.

 

I'll give the devs a little kiss if they do it, right on the cheek.

[zuraja]

On 2021-09-09 at 9:10 PM, DrivaMain said:

The low stats could be they are making room for a variant. 

Giving it better stats won't really help.  While they are pretty mediocre, the core problem with this thing is the fact that it's chained to the worst stance in the game.