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Shouldn't Fulmination and Firestorm be Exilus Mods?


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As title says, shouldn't Fulmination and Firestorm be Exilus Mods?

The Exilus mods are after all things like, beem length (sinister reach / ruinous extension), fall-off/Projectile speed (lethal momentum / fatal acceleration). Ammo, Recoil, Sound, etc.

Wouldn't blast radius fit the bill to go into a slot like that?

Seems like you could then have a meaningful choice between falloff/range vs explosion radius?

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Absolutely not. Firestorm is an absurd power level increase for most weapons that can make use of it. I feel like it can't possibly be overstated how much of a difference it makes. The 66% on primed is really misleading since it affects radius but the blast as a whole is volume, which means it's multiplied by the increase three times. 1.66*1.66*1.66 = 4,574296, meaning it's a 357% increase to the space your blast will hit. It's absolutely nuts.

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5 minutes ago, SiriSnugglebottoms said:

Firestorm is an absurd power level increase for most weapons that can make use of it.

^this

They're straight up increases to DPS potential. As far as I'm aware Exilus are intended to be reserved for QOL mods, for the most part.

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9 minutes ago, SiriSnugglebottoms said:

Absolutely not. Firestorm is an absurd power level increase for most weapons that can make use of it. I feel like it can't possibly be overstated how much of a difference it makes. The 66% on primed is really misleading since it affects radius but the blast as a whole is volume, which means it's multiplied by the increase three times. 1.66*1.66*1.66 = 4,574296, meaning it's a 357% increase to the space your blast will hit. It's absolutely nuts.

I was about to disagree.... But then I hear you mention it got Primed.... So it's bigger now ?

 

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23 minutes ago, SiriSnugglebottoms said:

Absolutely not. Firestorm is an absurd power level increase for most weapons that can make use of it. I feel like it can't possibly be overstated how much of a difference it makes. The 66% on primed is really misleading since it affects radius but the blast as a whole is volume, which means it's multiplied by the increase three times. 1.66*1.66*1.66 = 4,574296, meaning it's a 357% increase to the space your blast will hit. It's absolutely nuts.

Isn't the radius a sphere? If it's true, then the volume of a 7 meter radius is 1436.02667 cubic meters, add +66% blast radius and you will get 6568.81104. still almost a 3.5x  increase. Yeah, it would be better if it stayed not Exilus.

Edited by DrivaMain
Fixed math.. again.
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Well its worth remembering that some of your examples are recent changes, and that they didn't use to be Exilus. Also some Exilus mods, got powerful upgraded versions recently, which personally, I am happy about. I haven't thought about it comprehensively, but the weapons that seem to benefit the most from those, don't seem excessively OP. I am thinking about Shotguns specifically, its just really nice. 

Weapon builds that most benefit from increased area of effect... Primed Firestorm, I mean, they are already pretty powerful with those mods taking a regular slot. I can't really think of many where there is a choice between them and say Projectile Speed. Like... you can use Exilus mods in regular spots. If Primed Firestorm was mad an Exilus many builds would still put it in a regular spot anyway instead of unlocking the Exilus, thats how potent it is. 

So what it could do... is make certain powerful weapons even more powerful. Your Zarr's, Brammas, Envoy's etc since you are freeing up a slot, and the other Exilus choices, benefits can be gained other ways/mitigated (ammo pads Energised Munitions). 

So we have Galvanised Acceleration as an Exilus Slot, and on some weapons like Arca Plasma, Astilla, this feels really nice and a nice buff. To me, it doesn't feel excessive though. Your meta AOE weapons would get a much bugger buff if something like Primed Firestorm was Exilus. I understand the logic, behind the idea of the change, but yeah. I think DE won't change. I mean i am actually surprised they even made the beam extension mods Exilus (mmn Phantasma) but as powerful as that gun is, its still not as crazy as your top AOE guns generally. 

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8 hours ago, SiriSnugglebottoms said:

Absolutely not. Firestorm is an absurd power level increase for most weapons that can make use of it. I feel like it can't possibly be overstated how much of a difference it makes. The 66% on primed is really misleading since it affects radius but the blast as a whole is volume, which means it's multiplied by the increase three times. 1.66*1.66*1.66 = 4,574296, meaning it's a 357% increase to the space your blast will hit. It's absolutely nuts.

While I agree Primed Firestorm is far too powerful to put in the Exilus slot, calculating like this is kind of misleading. Generally, you only care about the cross-sectional area of the sphere of the explosion, as enemies will usually be standing on a flat floor. There are probably specific instances where the full sphere is relevant; Hydron, maybe, if you want to hit enemies on both the upper and lower areas. But outside of specific circumstances you're probably only going to care about the 1.66area increase rather than the 1.663 volume increase.

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more blast radius means you can hit more people at once. 

more hits at once = an increase in your overall DPS.

DE's rule for exilus mods is that they must NOT affect DPS in any way. even reload speed mods are out because less time reloading means more time shooting, and more shooting = more sustained DPS.

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24 minutes ago, (XBOX)TyeGoo said:

And that sums up how inconsistent and garbage this system is. Because shotguns being able to extend their reach, and CRIT weapons being able to get a chance to enhance an entire tier of critical hits, is definitely everything in this world, except QoL.

 

So yes to the topic at hand, or no and remove vigilante armaments, projectile speed etc. mods from the exilus category

Small correction, i assume you meant vigilante supplies. Vigilante armaments is the multishot mod and is not exilus.

Having said that, i wouldnt consider the 5% set bonus much of a dps increase but i do see where you are coming from. 

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9 minutes ago, (XBOX)TyeGoo said:

Oh yh supplies 😂 armaments was the next word for auto correct so I just pressed it 😂

My main gripe is the inconsistency tbh.. "some" mods are fine despite actually being useful (I see plenty of enhancement with just the 2 vigilante mods, especially ones with higher fire rate) but "some" are outrageously forbidden like reload speed and or mag capacity, rendering the slot useless for the majority of weapons. Except "those" that not only benefit, but become stronger (shotguns, like Arca) or more convenient (no ammo issues and enhanced crit tier chance, like Acceltra)

---

I think it's unfair. All weapons should either have a useless mod slot (removing existing mods for consistency) or all should get something decent in there.

I'll edit the mistake out from my previous post xD

I agree. And lets not get started on the mess that is warframe exilus 🤣

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20 minutes ago, (XBOX)TyeGoo said:

And that sums up how inconsistent and garbage this system is. Because shotguns being able to extend their reach, and CRIT weapons being able to get a chance to enhance an entire tier of critical hits, is definitely everything in this world, except QoL.

 

So yes to the topic at hand, or no and remove vigilante armaments, projectile speed etc. mods from the exilus category

Nah, increased area is several orders of magnitude more of  a game changer than beam range or flight speed.  And the only one that's truly inconsistent in your list is Vigilante Supplies set affix, where the actual effect is tiny.   Some amount of consistency is nice, but perfect consistency is often a foolish endeavor.  This is one of those cases, IMO.

However Vigilante Supplies brings up a different point:  if you want an example of already exilus-eligible mods that are somewhat comparable to Firestorm and Fulmination in game effect, look no further than ammo mutation and ammo pool mods.   No more than QoL on most conventional weapons but game changing effective dps enhancements on many launchers that were designed to have their damage output throttled by ammo limitations.

 * * *

The only simple-ish way I really see out of the dilemma is to disallow particular mods as exilus on particular weapons / weapon classes.  Which isn't exactly elegant with the way the game is set up now, but we do have some examples of this already, where passive reload mods aren't allowed on most launchers.  It's a little ironic that DE caught on to that problem but apparently didn't realize how screwy ammo mutation could get.

Anyway, expand that system and I can picture a situationwhere exilus Firestorm is allowed on the Zhuge Prime but not the Ogris, and Vigilant Supplies is exilus on the Veldt but not the KZarr.   And maybe even Seeker allowed in the exilus on Twin Gremlins but not on the Knukor. 

That game sounds (even) more untidy but maybe (even) more fun than the current one to me.  Your mileage my vary!

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8 hours ago, (PSN)BillyBobJoeBro1 said:

While I agree Primed Firestorm is far too powerful to put in the Exilus slot, calculating like this is kind of misleading. Generally, you only care about the cross-sectional area of the sphere of the explosion, as enemies will usually be standing on a flat floor. There are probably specific instances where the full sphere is relevant; Hydron, maybe, if you want to hit enemies on both the upper and lower areas. But outside of specific circumstances you're probably only going to care about the 1.66area increase rather than the 1.663 volume increase.

Sort of. I think it's really common to care about either up or down, but not both at the same time. I can agree to that much. Either way I'm sure we can agree that just saying 66% bigger is wrong 😆

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Logically , blast radius mods should act similar to beam length/ projectile speed mods and so should technically be exilus mods.

But it is very obvious that they add much more DPS then the other mods as they affect damage area and fall off. So they cannot be considered to be similar.

I dislike how there are very few meaningful choices in exilus and how at the same time they can completely bypass many restrictions for select weapons.

Ammo mutation for most of the aoe launcher weapons is a much higher effective dps boost than blast radius.

You might be able to do damage in nearly 2.7x area 5 times with primed firestorm , buy you can do the damage in 1x area 20 to 100 times as much with mutation mods.

I consider exilus mod selection a failure as of now.

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40 minutes ago, SiriSnugglebottoms said:

Sort of. I think it's really common to care about either up or down, but not both at the same time. I can agree to that much. Either way I'm sure we can agree that just saying 66% bigger is wrong 😆

Yeah, agreed. If you're doing Steel Path survival or something where there's high enemy density, you're probably going to be able to at least double the number of enemies you hit.

 

13 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Logically , blast radius mods should act similar to beam length/ projectile speed mods and so should technically be exilus mods.

But it is very obvious that they add much more DPS then the other mods as they affect damage area and fall off. So they cannot be considered to be similar.

I dislike how there are very few meaningful choices in exilus and how at the same time they can completely bypass many restrictions for select weapons.

Ammo mutation for most of the aoe launcher weapons is a much higher effective dps boost than blast radius.

You might be able to do damage in nearly 2.7x area 5 times with primed firestorm , buy you can do the damage in 1x area 20 to 100 times as much with mutation mods.

I consider exilus mod selection a failure as of now.

Ammo mutation might be useful on, like, Spy, but if there are sufficiently many enemies in a mission you should be killing enough enemies per shot to not need to worry about ammo. Especially with the Merciless arcanes giving you some breathing room if you get unlucky with ammo drops for a bit.

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3 minutes ago, (PSN)BillyBobJoeBro1 said:

Ammo mutation might be useful on, like, Spy, but if there are sufficiently many enemies in a mission you should be killing enough enemies per shot to not need to worry about ammo. Especially with the Merciless arcanes giving you some breathing room if you get unlucky with ammo drops for a bit.

I disagree partially , mostly cause I see players running around blasting away even when there are single enemies around irrespective of mission type.

Granted this depends on the player and how ammo efficient the weapon actually is as well.

I am certain the situation would be different if they had to choose between ammo mutation and or other staple mods without exilus, the fact that one of the ammo mutation mods also boosts DPS directly is a different problem by itself 

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1 hour ago, (PSN)BillyBobJoeBro1 said:

Ammo mutation might be useful on, like, Spy, but if there are sufficiently many enemies in a mission you should be killing enough enemies per shot to not need to worry about ammo. Especially with the Merciless arcanes giving you some breathing room if you get unlucky with ammo drops for a bit.

I don't totally disagree but ammo mutation is my go-to for any weapon that doesn't need a different exilus mod or matches polarity with mutation. With the new Galvanized projectile speed mod there is reason to use a few other options but for the most part ammo mutation is BIS as a default option IMO. Especially if you're using one of the unranked prime mods that counts as 0 drain regardless of polarity and you have little/no capacity available.

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Unlike beam length which only increase the range that you can hit a target, explosion radius actually increase the dps because it can hit more targets. 

Also if we're going with increase AoE = Exilus, shouldn't punch through mods be up for it too? Punch though is pretty much the same as AoE radius increased, in a sense that they both allow you to hit more enemies, just in a different way.

 

Edited by EothasianBoar
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On 2021-09-10 at 4:59 PM, Loveframe said:

As title says, shouldn't Fulmination and Firestorm be Exilus Mods?

The Exilus mods are after all things like, beem length (sinister reach / ruinous extension), fall-off/Projectile speed (lethal momentum / fatal acceleration). Ammo, Recoil, Sound, etc.

Wouldn't blast radius fit the bill to go into a slot like that?

Seems like you could then have a meaningful choice between falloff/range vs explosion radius?

Heck no...and we shouldn't even be talking about these mods. Drop the subject. Everything is fine, yep...fine.

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Exilus Slots are pretty underwhelming.  There are bunches of mods that seem like they should fit in the Exilus slot, but if it can directly or indirectly contribute to damage output, it's a big nope.  Real bummer, since it seems ideal for Rate of Fire, Area of Effect, and Punch Through mods.

That class of mods that can trigger Slash procs off of Critical Hits or Impact Status would be a good fit for Exilus, too.

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Beam length isn't significant compared to blast radius, that's why it was moved to Exilus. Honestly, they could combine punch through with reduced fall off and beam length, and make the combine mod Exilus, and it would still be inferior to blast radius. 

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