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Opinions on Trinity? (V.S other support frames)


Harvenger76
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On 2021-09-11 at 2:33 AM, Sevek7 said:

I think Trinity is outdated. Every frame has access to many methods of self-healing that are very fast and safe. (generally much faster and more reliable than depending on a Trinity teammate noticing that your health is low). The same is true for energy restore via Zenurik, Arcane Energize, Pizzas... which makes energy vampire basically only good for teams of newer players lacking those items/progression.

You're right that Trinity in today's Warframe basically becomes a mini-support (periodically prevents other players needing to remember to regen their own energy & health) while being primarily a tank by using Link & Blessing for damage reduction.

Unfortunately, the duration of the damage reduction buffs from Link & Blessing are both super low compared to similar damage reduction abilities on other frames. So if you want to play a tank-style build then Trinity is a bad choice since you end up needing to micromanage two separate short timers, instead of a single long one (or even no timer managing at all).

There's an upcoming augment for Trinity that will increase her weapon damage output, but I doubt it will help since all mobs are trash mobs and all players have AOE that wipes the room.

TLDR: I think her popularity is low because her entire support kit has been copied in Arcanes & Focus schools so she's just become unnecessary as a team player and her tank style requires micromanaging far beyond other frames' tank setups.

All of this. Trinity is a great example of Warframe's design as a game. Over the years we've gotten tools, mechanics, and changes to the game that enable players to be less required to play as a group and have  their cake and eat it too when it comes to roles. Trinity was a star when Warframe was more role centric, but everyone has an Operator now, multiple Arcanes, massive AOE through weapons, and buffs through Helminth. Support Warframes have fallen out of style with the exception of Wisp because she has one ability that gives health while the others give DPS.

There's no real way to bring Trinity up to par without changing the core design of the game to require people to play together. Given the profit the game generates by being extremely solo friendly and not having much team play at all, I don't see any way to make Trinity or any support Warframe truly a viable option without lazily slapping buffs on her existing abilities like we see with the potential augment coming for Bless.

Edited by Voltage
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11 hours ago, Voltage said:

There's no real way to bring Trinity up to par without changing the core design of the game to require people to play together. Given the profit the game generates by being extremely solo friendly and not having much team play at all, I don't see any way to make Trinity or any support Warframe truly a viable option without lazily slapping buffs on her existing abilities like we see with the potential augment coming for Bless.

I don't fully agree with this: while it is true that Trinity has fallen off over time in large part because the game has made players more self-sufficient, and while I do agree that players are a bit too good at recovering from anything, I do think there's still a place for her and other support frames, so long as their usefulness doesn't revolve around being walking resource batteries for other players (which is arguably the most boring way to play any support), and so long as supporting their team isn't literally all they're meant to do. Wisp is a good example of this because she can help her team while still doing well on her own, and even Trinity's decently good at this given that she's a really strong tank. If her 1 were changed to let her do something new, ideally that didn't revolve around replenishing her team's resources, she'd likely do a lot better already, though she'd still have the clunk of early warframe design.

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2 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I do think there's still a place for her and other support frames, so long as their usefulness doesn't revolve around being walking resource batteries for other players (which is arguably the most boring way to play any support), and so long as supporting their team isn't literally all they're meant to do. Wisp is a good example of this because she can help her team while still doing well on her own, and even Trinity's decently good at this given that she's a really strong tank.

This reads like "There's a place for support frames, because they can be tanks instead of support!" Sure, you're not wrong, but at that point it's really not a support frame anymore. 

For example, by this logic Inaros is a good support frame because he supports the team by shooting things and not dying.

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12 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

This reads like "There's a place for support frames, because they can be tanks instead of support!" Sure, you're not wrong, but at that point it's really not a support frame anymore. 

This is a rather disingenuous reading of what I'd written, which was: "support frames can fit in Warframe, so long as their literal entire function isn't just to support other players".

If you want to play a game where every character functions under a strict role classification and has to remain within the boundaries of that role at all times, feel free to play any of the hundreds of other games that do just that. League of Legends is a free game too, and it could certainly do with more support players, because as it turns out, playing a dedicated support who does nothing except support isn't actually very popular. Meanwhile, I can continue to play Warframe, and can continue to play Trinity as a tanky, independent frame capable of healing and buffing teammates, rather than whichever sort of team servant you feel she should be.

 

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Support frames are cool when they show up, but hardly ever necessary. I'm assuming this is by design. 

We hardly ever fail missions in Warframe anyway. There is no need for a frame that fits anything but help complete the mission faster. 

That said, Trin feels like a solo frame that other frames can benefit from. Her 1 is disposable, so adding roar or dispensary (with augment) also helps to support herself and other frames. 

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28 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

This is a rather disingenuous reading of what I'd written, which was: "support frames can fit in Warframe, so long as their literal entire function isn't just to support other players".

Sure we can back up a second. Take that statement and then add the fact that every frame has access to the bevy of arcanes, operator, helminth, pizzas, etc... and realize that the entire support provided by a "support frame" is therefore already built in to every single frame in the game, often passively.

So, a "support frame" with a secondary function (like being a tank) then effectively becomes relegated to only the secondary function. [Not 100% true for new players who don't yet have access to 90% of the toolkit]

(This is the context provided by Voltage's post which you quoted)

Which then leads us to the statement

49 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

 "There's a place for support frames, because they can be tanks instead of support!"

That was the logic I used to get here, hope this makes it more clear. Let me know if you think I'm still wrong.

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2 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

Sure we can back up a second. Take that statement and then add the fact that every frame has access to the bevy of arcanes, operator, helminth, pizzas, etc... and realize that the entire support provided by a "support frame" is therefore already built in to every single frame in the game, often passively.

So, a "support frame" with a secondary function (like being a tank) then effectively becomes relegated to only the secondary function. [Not 100% true for new players who don't yet have access to 90% of the toolkit]

(This is the context provided by Voltage's post which you quoted)

Which then leads us to the statement

That was the logic I used to get here, hope this makes it more clear. Let me know if you think I'm still wrong.

By this inane logic, there's no point in frames with high potential for DPS or tanking because our customization options give us that in spades too. As per my reply to Voltage, I do agree that it is too easy to recover certain resources, but that does not mean that support frames have no place in the game, particularly as Voltage themselves listed Wisp as an example of a viable support. I would also encourage you to actually play Trinity, and see that she is still to this day capable of doing things that are not provided by our customization options, such as fully healing allies from large distances or healing defense objectives. This isn't to say Trinity is in no need of changes (I think she could do with quite a few), it's just to point out that there's no sense in claiming that it's impossible to support effectively in Warframe, and that pretending that that's the case leads to no productive discussion whatsoever.

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2 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

By this inane logic, there's no point in frames with high potential for DPS or tanking because our customization options give us that in spades too.

Uh... what? No. The logic was: Support provides bonuses to other players, but if those players are able to provide those bonuses (mostly passively) to themselves then there's no need for a Support frame in a team environment. 

I'm not sure how that translated to "There's no need for frames with high DPS." 

8 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

particularly as Voltage themselves listed Wisp as an example of a viable support.

Yeah that's a fair point. A max health buff with passive regen with a speed & attack speed boost and some light CC is a good example of support that works with Warframe. I'll admit that my focus was on Trinity (the topic of this thread) and I didn't consider Wisp, you're right on this point.

10 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I would also encourage you to actually play Trinity, and see that she is still to this day capable of doing things that are not provided by our customization options, such as fully healing allies from large distances or healing defense objectives.

Yes, she's capable of doing those things.

But the point is that every other frame is also capable of doing those things due to the toolkit of arcanes, operators, etc...

I think I'll stop here, it doesn't look like we'll end up agreeing - I suspect we both have better things to spend our time on :)

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16 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

Uh... what? No. The logic was: Support provides bonuses to other players, but if those players are able to provide those bonuses (mostly passively) to themselves then there's no need for a Support frame in a team environment. 

Which can be said just the same for DPS or tankiness, so you are simply repeating yourself here. As also pointed out, not only does this not prevent some frames from being able to support (again with the example of Wisp), it is also not a truly accurate representation of the problem given that, as also pointed out, support frames can still contribute things our customization options cannot.

16 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

I'm not sure how that translated to "There's no need for frames with high DPS." 

When the argument is that a frame's strengths are worthless if they can be accessed through customization options, that same argument can be applied to literally any aspect of any frame, as our customization options let us access most things, including damage increases and durability. The problem is not exclusive to support, and does not fully describe the problem with support frames in the game right now. It does have some relevance to some of Trinity's problems, because she was once great for providing constant top-ups to Energy and health, which are no longer needed as much due to our recovery options, but it neither describes them in their entirety (she's also a really clunky frame that's not very fun for most to play), nor accurately describes the problem of most supports (neither Harrow nor Titania specialize all that much in resource recovery, for example, but are still not especially popular, for different reasons). Framing the problem of supports in Warframe as one of customization options is making an excessive generalization that neither describes the problem effectively nor I think has much of a chance to offer useful solutions.

16 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

Yes, she's capable of doing those things.

But the point is that every other frame is also capable of doing those things due to the toolkit of arcanes, operators, etc...

Read what I posted again. Those specific examples I listed were of things that Trinity can do that are not provided by our customization options. No customization option will let you heal 100% of your entire team's health and shields from Affinity range (and provide 75% damage reduction to boot). No customization option will let you heal a defense objective. These are not necessarily game-changers in today's state of Warframe, but they are clear evidence that customization options don't completely swallow up all of Trinity's contributions. What we need isn't a return to a game with roles set in stone where dedicated support frames are once more necessary, what we need IMO is to drop the notion of dedicated supports in Warframe, or any sort of class with a single exclusive role: sure, we can and certainly should tone down some of our customization options so that we can't just trivialize every bit of gameplay we participate in, but we also need to make sure that even frames designated as support frames can do just fine on their own, and not need a premade group to be able to support their team. Trinity can do this already, and she should have those aspects amped up and updated to fit modern quality-of-life standards, rather than be forever relegated to being the game's resource battery.

Edited by Teridax68
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1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

This is a rather disingenuous reading of what I'd written, which was: "support frames can fit in Warframe, so long as their literal entire function isn't just to support other players"

I don't know man.... It seems pretty spot on. If you ask me 🤔 

1 hour ago, Sevek7 said:

That was the logic I used to get here, hope this makes it more clear. Let me know if you think I'm still wrong.

I was thinking the same thing 😁

54 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

or healing defense objectives.

Can she actually do this ? 🤔 It was my understanding that when DE enabled us to Heal Defense Objectives.... The majority of the abilities didn't work as described and were severely gimped... I'm pretty sure Trinity was one of those Frames....

Meanwhile Wisp Spectre gives continuous healing to objectives.... Yes.... The Spectre does this.... Meaning you arent even Locked into using Wisp yourself to reap the benefits. 

41 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

 

I think I'll stop here, it doesn't look like we'll end up agreeing - I suspect we both have better things to spend our time on :)

I don't....but Il pretend that I do just So I can be one of the Cool Kids 😎

27 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

No customization option will let you heal a defense objective.

Doesn't Wisp Spectre Count ? 😞

 

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1 minute ago, Lutesque said:

Can she actually do this ? 🤔 It was my understanding that when DE enabled us to Heal Defense Objectives.... The majority of the abilities didn't work as described and were severely gimped... I'm pretty sure Trinity was one of those Frames....

You are most welcome to play Trinity and see for yourself. Yes, she can do this, and from what I'm seeing there appears to be an awful lot of people commenting on Trinity without actually knowing what she does.

1 minute ago, Lutesque said:

Meanwhile Wisp Spectre gives continuous healing to objectives.... Yes.... The Spectre does this.... Meaning you arent even Locked into using Wisp yourself to reap the benefits. 

I don't....but Il pretend that I do just So I can be one of the Cool Kids 😎

Doesn't Wisp Spectre Count ? 😞

 

If you want to argue that a frame's contributions aren't unique because you can literally spawn that frame as a specter, then I guess no frame is unique, nor has any chance to be. Seriously, though, that is a pretty terrible argument when discussing the unique contributions and viability of any warframe.

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41 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Can she actually do this ? 🤔 It was my understanding that when DE enabled us to Heal Defense Objectives.... The majority of the abilities didn't work as described and were severely gimped... I'm pretty sure Trinity was one of those Frames... 

 

 

I forget when exactly they changed this but trinity can can heal objectives using her fourth ability, but instead of restoring it to full shields and health, it only heals 500 hp over the course of 5 seconds, which is nothing to scoff at since this can be incredibly useful in high level excavation.

But as the others have stated we rarely lose missions anyways making Trinity's usefulness in this aspect a bit null as well.

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She's good on paper but I hate playing her in practice. She's at a very irritating place where her abilities aren't really interactive, but also you have to babysit them.


As others have said, Link and Blessing are on short timers for different durations. You don't have to do anything except press the button to refresh them. So what I'm actually doing in practice is watching a little timer and pressing a button every few seconds. That's not interactive enough to be fun, but just interactive enough to be annoying.

Contrast this with Oberon, who has a channeled heal: set it and forget it, just make sure you don't drop to zero energy. Or with Harrow, you have to actually do something (kill enemies) to heal, and you know when the ability runs out because there is an indicator on your reticle.

This is why I say that Trinity is good on paper, but I don't actually have fun using her 3 and 4. Energy Vampire is pretty fun and useful, but in high level content you still have to use your 3 and 4 to stay alive and I invariably forget to press the buttons because I'm having so much fun playing the video game that I get distracted.

Edited by dudefaceguy
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1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

You are most welcome to play Trinity and see for yourself. Yes, she can do this, and from what I'm seeing there appears to be an awful lot of people commenting on Trinity without actually knowing what she does.

She was my Eidolon Hunting Frame... I have decent idea of how she works.... 

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

If you want to argue that a frame's contributions aren't unique because you can literally spawn that frame as a specter, then I guess no frame is unique, nor has any chance to be. Seriously, though, that is a pretty terrible argument when discussing the unique contributions and viability of any warframe.

It's less about Uniqueness and more about Overall Effectiveness... The Health Regen from health motes even if it's just the base stats are more effective at healing Defense Objectives than Trinity regardless of how you mod her because of how they gimped how her abilities work on Objectives.... 

So I mean...  Think about it.. would use Trinity or use Use any Warframe you want + Wisp Spectre ?

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1 hour ago, Harvenger76 said:

I forget when exactly they changed this but trinity can can heal objectives using her fourth ability, but instead of restoring it to full shields and health, it only heals 500 hp over the course of 5 seconds, which is nothing to scoff at since this can be incredibly useful in high level excavation

I also forget but this was the same time they Nerfed Vazarin's Protective Dash...

As for how effective Trinity is at healing Excavators.... It's definitely something to Scoff at...and I'm not just saying that because I miss Vazarin... it's because Wisp's 20HP per second is WAAAAAAAAY more effective than Trinity's 100HP per second... Funny as that may sound...

 

My guess is part of the reason why that is because although Trinity's Healing is higher... Her ability to actually keep enemies away from the Excavator is not.... Hence you can defend the excavator's better by outsourcing the Healing to someone else while you use a more effective Murder/Keep Away Frame.... That plus Shock More further mitigates incoming damage by stunning enemies who get to close....

I like Trinity.... She was my Noobie Frame and a Gift from a very dear Tenno to me.... but even before I got my Arcane Energizers and Adaptation she was kinda meh... And really boring if I'm being honest....

 

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After doing some thinking, I believe there is one aspect of the game where supports like Trinity may find a new and much welcomed use, this is all hypothetical of course but hear me out.

So with the return of raids announced I believe that they should come with a feature that let's the player select different conditions, debuffs that will effect your whole team during the raid, making it more difficult but at the prospect of greater rewards.

Things like energy drain, increased damage vulnerability or disabled health drops for example would be amongst these many debuffs. If these where to feature in raids or a whole new game mode, then I believe somthing like this could make supports and healers useful again.

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2 hours ago, Lutesque said:

She was my Eidolon Hunting Frame... I have decent idea of how she works.... 

Not enough apparently to know that she can heal defense objectives, a fact I told you that you could have verified independently, yet still chose to deny.

2 hours ago, Lutesque said:

It's less about Uniqueness and more about Overall Effectiveness... The Health Regen from health motes even if it's just the base stats are more effective at healing Defense Objectives than Trinity regardless of how you mod her because of how they gimped how her abilities work on Objectives.... 

So I mean...  Think about it.. would use Trinity or use Use any Warframe you want + Wisp Spectre ?

Look at my statistics and come back to me with that question again. Biased as I may be, I don't think most people go through the trouble of constantly carrying around and using Wisp specters for the express purpose of making Trinity obsolete, not even during Defense missions. To be clear: I do in fact believe Trinity, other support frames, and the game all need to change. Trinity in particular is really clunky, and many other support frames have the problem of not working very well in pubs (Harrow especially can't use one of his abilities at all). I do agree that there's not enough interaction between players, and would like to move towards a game state where there'd be more of that. I do not, however, believe returning to a state of dependency on supports is what will improve the game or even the experience of playing supports, nor do I feel making harebrained comparisons to Wisp specters or the like is really going to set grounds for any discussion that would accurately describe the issue with Trinity, let alone any other support frame. Even with Vazarin's Energy dash, Magus Repair, and a Wisp specter, you are still not going to be able to play Trinity without actually playing Trinity, nor quite do all of the things she can do. The trouble with Trinity's popularity isn't simply that healing or Energy options exist (those were around while she was still dominant), but that we have become so powerful and self-reliant that we don't need a frame based entirely around supplementing our resources anymore. Some part of this could be improved with changes to the game, but I also think some part of it needs to be addressed by changing Trinity herself, as being a walking dispenser was never the most fun way to play her. 

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5 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Not enough apparently to know that she can heal defense objectives, a fact I told you that you could have verified independently, yet still chose to deny.

Where did I deny that she could heal Defense Objectives ? 🤔

7 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Biased as I may be, I don't think most people go through the trouble of constantly carrying around and using Wisp specters for the express purpose of making Trinity obsolete, not even during Defense missions.

Well... Obviously.... She's already Obselete so it wouldn't make sense for them to use Wisp Spectres that way... 

 

10 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

nor do I feel making harebrained comparisons to Wisp specters or the like is really going to set grounds for any discussion that would accurately describe the issue with Trinity, let alone any other support frame.

You're probably right.... But its still telling that most players would prefer a modless AI companion over a living, breathing Trinity... 😮 

12 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Even with Vazarin's Energy dash, Magus Repair, and a Wisp specter, you are still not going to be able to play Trinity without actually playing Trinity, nor quite do all of the things she can do.

Well yeah.... That's kinda the point of those tools.... It saves me from having to play Trinity....as for what she can or can't do.... You can blame DE for that.... Energy Vampire can be mitigated by Damage Reduction, the DR you get from Blessing isn't enough (if it's not 90% then it's not worth it)... Self Damage doesn't work on Link (this was before self knockdown)... And God knows what else I might be missing. I would say DE has an Axe to grind against Trinity but I believe Mag and Mirage are better candidates for that.

19 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

The trouble with Trinity's popularity isn't simply that healing or Energy options exist (those were around while she was still dominant)

There's is. Difference between something merely existing and it being Ubiquitous....  Healing and Energy Acquisition may have always been around but they haven't always been Ubiquitous or Practical.... As the game has evolved and those things become easier to Access at earlier Stages of Progression... So too does Trinity's relevance as a Warframe...

24 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Some part of this could be improved with changes to the game, but I also think some part of it needs to be addressed by changing Trinity herself, as being a walking dispenser was never the most fun way to play her.

You know.... I could say the same thing about Life Line in Apex Legends.... If I didn't suck so bad at that game 😝 !! 3 Hours of play time and I still have Zero Kills !

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14 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Where did I deny that she could heal Defense Objectives ? 🤔

Right here:

6 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Can she actually do this ? 🤔 It was my understanding that when DE enabled us to Heal Defense Objectives.... The majority of the abilities didn't work as described and were severely gimped... I'm pretty sure Trinity was one of those Frames....

 

14 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Well... Obviously.... She's already Obselete so it wouldn't make sense for them to use Wisp Spectres that way... 

It doesn't make much sense to bring a Wisp specter to every mission, or even every defense mission, which is why that isn't done either. The whole notion that one brings a Wisp specter in case one wants a Trinity in a Defense mission is complete fiction.

14 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

You're probably right.... But its still telling that most players would prefer a modless AI companion over a living, breathing Trinity... 😮 

Who and where are these "most players"?

14 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Well yeah.... That's kinda the point of those tools.... It saves me from having to play Trinity....as for what she can or can't do.... You can blame DE for that.... Energy Vampire can be mitigated by Damage Reduction,

EV deals true damage, which ignores armor.

14 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

the DR you get from Blessing isn't enough (if it's not 90% then it's not worth it)...

The DR you get from Blessing stacks with the DR from Link, giving you 93.75% damage reduction. This is equivalent to multiplying your effective health by a factor of 16, as opposed to the usual multiplier of 10 from 90% DR.

14 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Self Damage doesn't work on Link (this was before self knockdown)...

Self-damage was taken out of every other damage-transmitting ability at the same time as Link. Trinity was not the only one affected.

14 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

And God knows what else I might be missing. I would say DE has an Axe to grind against Trinity but I believe Mag and Mirage are better candidates for that.

They did once, for good reason, because during those times Trinity was godlike. She was far too strong, and was turning missions into their current state back when resource replenishment and personal durability weren't quite where they are now. Her nerfs were well-deserved, and to this day I still think her Energy restoration is excessive, not that it's an issue now that everyone can get all the Energy they need. More pertinently, I think the biggest problem was that she was too good at offering power that just made the game less interesting, which is why she needs changes even now.

14 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

There's is. Difference between something merely existing and it being Ubiquitous....  Healing and Energy Acquisition may have always been around but they haven't always been Ubiquitous or Practical.... As the game has evolved and those things become easier to Access at earlier Stages of Progression... So too does Trinity's relevance as a Warframe...

You could have perhaps read a little further ahead before reflexively coming up with an answer, because your knee-jerk response is in fact exactly the point I was making. It's not just the existence of healing and Energy restoration in our options that made Trinity obsolete, it's the fact that our options cover essentially all of our needs, not just because they've become stronger, but also because we've become strong enough in so many other respects (through shield gating, for example) that we don't depend on what Trinity provides as much either. Merely chalking it down to a few mods or arcanes doesn't paint an accurate picture.

 

Edited by Teridax68
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5 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Right here:

That's my fault.... I should have clarified that my doubt was with Trinity's ability to Heal Defense Objectives Effectively rather than in a technical sense...

8 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

It doesn't make much sense to bring a Wisp specter to every mission, or even every defense mission, which is why that isn't done either. The whole notion that one brings a Wisp specter in case one wants a Trinity in a Defense mission is complete fiction.

Well obviously missions that start from one end and finish somewhere else are not Wisp Spectre's wheel house.... But then again the Other Spectres don't fair any better or worse than she does in that case.... However... In every other mission type Vapor Wisp is just better than everyone else... With one exception.... If you're sealing Fractures and are using more than 2 Cannisters for each Fracture then Wisp Spectre is useless under those conditions.... She's just falls apart because Nullifiers delete her Motes.... I found Trinity's Spectre to be significantly far more effective in this Activity...

As for why people don't use Wisp Spectres everywhere... It could be any number of reasons but My money is on they are simply just saving Resources..... I personally never had this issue so I always brought Her with me everywhere I went.... She's a great Wing Man...

17 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Who and where are these "most players"?

Try throwing a Rock.... Guaranteed to land on one such Player... 😁

18 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

EV deals true damage, which ignores armor.

Who said anything about Armor ? I said Damage Reduction.... 

20 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

The DR you get from Blessing stacks with the DR from Link, giving you 93.75% damage reduction. This is equivalent to multiplying your effective health by a factor of 16, as opposed to the usual multiplier of 10 from 90% DR.

And if Link's Duration wasn't so short this might actually be good.... In practice though... It isn't hence I just let Blessing Stack with Adaptation Instead.... It's a significantly less frustrating Combination than Blessing + Link... I mean... For those who have that option.... 

22 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Self-damage was taken out of every other damage-transmitting ability at the same time as Link. Trinity was not the only one affected.

The Self Damage on Link got nerfed Years before Universal Self Damage was replaced with Self Stagger....

"For consistency, damage link abilities (Trinity, Nidus, Nekros) will no longer transmit self-damage, but you will still get the damage reduction. This is particularly relevant for the healer/support class of Trinity who had become the go-to DPS frame in addition to the intended support roles. The re-release of Mods like Aviator added to some clever but ultimately uncharacteristic roles for Trinity.

Update 22.14 (2018-03-01)"

- The Wiki.

30 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

They did once, for good reason, because during those times Trinity was godlike. She was far too strong, and was turning missions into their current state back when resource replenishment and personal durability weren't quite where they are now. Her nerfs were well-deserved, and to this day I still think her Energy restoration is excessive, not that it's an issue now that everyone can get all the Energy they need. More pertinently, I think the biggest problem was that she was too good at offering power that just made the game less interesting, which is why she needs changes even now.

I want to disagree but I wasn't around back before Trinity got Nerfed and this section basically describes how I feel about Octavia right now... So much so that I believe she needs a rework more than Trinity does...

32 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

You could have perhaps read a little further ahead before reflexively coming up with an answer,

I did....

33 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

because your knee-jerk response is in fact exactly the point I was making.

It is ? 

I honestly don't even know what we are discussing exactly... To be honest with you... It's late and I can't fall asleep... That's my only excuse....

 

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17 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Well obviously missions that start from one end and finish somewhere else are not Wisp Spectre's wheel house.... But then again the Other Spectres don't fair any better or worse than she does in that case.... However... In every other mission type Vapor Wisp is just better than everyone else... With one exception.... If you're sealing Fractures and are using more than 2 Cannisters for each Fracture then Wisp Spectre is useless under those conditions.... She's just falls apart because Nullifiers delete her Motes.... I found Trinity's Spectre to be significantly far more effective in this Activity...

So in the few situations where you've used a specter, you've found Trinity better than Wisp? What?

17 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

As for why people don't use Wisp Spectres everywhere... It could be any number of reasons but My money is on they are simply just saving Resources..... I personally never had this issue so I always brought Her with me everywhere I went.... She's a great Wing Man...

I agree fully that Wisp is a great support, what you're saying just points out that her specter isn't a credible replacement for Trinity.

17 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Try throwing a Rock.... Guaranteed to land on one such Player... 😁

That's interesting, because I've seen Wisp specters about twice in my gameplay. "Trust me bro" is not a credible source for a claim.

17 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Who said anything about Armor ? I said Damage Reduction.... 

Sure, from which sources? Because armor is the most common source of damage reduction, and is ignored by true damage. The existence of other DR is not what's holding Trinity back from being a DPS monster, so much as just a general lack of powerful damage effects (nuking single-target enemies with EV isn't that impressive anymore when most frames can kill crowds at a time).

17 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

And if Link's Duration wasn't so short this might actually be good.... In practice though... It isn't hence I just let Blessing Stack with Adaptation Instead.... It's a significantly less frustrating Combination than Blessing + Link... I mean... For those who have that option.... 

Link's duration is greater than Blessing's.

17 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

The Self Damage on Link got nerfed Years before Universal Self Damage was replaced with Self Stagger....

"For consistency, damage link abilities (Trinity, Nidus, Nekros) will no longer transmit self-damage, but you will still get the damage reduction. This is particularly relevant for the healer/support class of Trinity who had become the go-to DPS frame in addition to the intended support roles. The re-release of Mods like Aviator added to some clever but ultimately uncharacteristic roles for Trinity.

Update 22.14 (2018-03-01)"

- The Wiki.

Please, for the sake of intelligent discussion, actually read what you are presenting. The very text you are quoting states that damage link abilities, including Trinity's Link but also Nekros's Parasitic Link and Nekros's Shield of Shadows, all had their self-damage transmission turned off at the same time. Self-damage was removed only years later.

17 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

I did....

It is ? 

I honestly don't even know what we are discussing exactly... To be honest with you... It's late and I can't fall asleep... That's my only excuse....

Then stay off internet forums until you get sleep when you can, and come back to this conversation with a clear head. Confused, half-formed responses only waste your time and mine, and clog up the thread they're on.

Edited by Teridax68
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