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Top 10 Ways To Revive Conclave


(PSN)ExcaliburSpecter
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1) add bots or specters to fill unfilled player slots and when a player join it removes a specter.

2) balance all weapons that were unbalanced and removed, also balance the unbalanced weapons that still remain

3) listen to the conclave player base for feedback and bugs

4) make it more rewarding to play and give people motive to play

5) add a battle pass system

6) add ranked matches to balance match making

7) add more fun game modes. I.E necramech pvp, kdrive racing, archwing pvp, open world battle royal, railjack pvp.

8) have a dedicated team to pvp side of things so you have time to work on both pve and pvp

9) make conclave its own dedicated region so no mater what reqion you are it will match everyone up. Also allow crossplay to conclave too

10) increase the player limit to 10 or 12

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I disagree. Conclave shouldnt be pvp. It should be pve vs pve. Warframe is simply too fast paced that the combat system isn't fluid. When a player can backflip, front flip, bullet jump, summersault, and teleport, it becomes inconsistent to shoot people. It's no longer a matter of skill. It's a matter of, "Do we enjoy playing this or just winning?" There's a distinct difference. When you only enjoy winning, you don't enjoy the game itself. Losing becomes a punishment on yourself. Winning however boosts the competitive ego. However enjoying the game allows the loser and the winner to grow. It's no longer about just winning. It's about fairness and getting better.

Warframe was never a pvp game. It just had pvp slapped in it without any intention of it being good or balanced. So the best way to compete in a pve game is to pit two teams of players against enemies and outkill each other. Lunaro is kinda fun though. Destiny has a good pvp system and it is constantly being improved and rebalanced. The movement system is fluid and also allows higher agility classes to have a slight edge while also not being too powerful. Same with the other classes. But warframe cannot have this because it is a game based on being as powerful as possible. So you have to place power against power. Instead of "who can bullet jump and flip and run and pop out of corners the best?" It should be "who knows the game the best? And who has the best build to handle enemies in the pve game?" And there should be a matchmaking system based on rank or skill or previous wins and losses.

I agree with you on the racing and stuff. Racing is straight forward and fair. And railjack has a good pacing to it so I can agree there. But players should not be able to fly into another's ship, bullet jump and flip around and then nuke everybody on board. Players also should not be nerfed to the ground to play against one another. That's what I mean by fair. Because a person can run away in pvp and never be killed. While a person can try to sit still to shoot someone and immediately be stabbed in the back.

Destiny has a game mode that puts players against hordes of enemies and killing enemies and doing some other crap sends enemies to other groups. So the goal isn't to kill the opponent, it's to overwhelm them by killing faster. 

Hide and seek is also something that, no matter how childish it seems, is always fun. 

Having a paintball set of rules would be nice. Where if you get hit once you are out. It would balance the side of bullet jumping constantly and running away with actual skill. Maybe have a specific gun that has less firerate and splashes opponents with a color. 

But it shouldn't be the way it is now where you have to shoot someone15 times while they are flipping and flopping and shoot around corners and jumping and dodging and blocking.... just to get a kill. 

I'm saying all this cause I like fair pvp but I don't like the tryhard nature of pvp. You lose in pvp in warframe and you get called trash when it's nearly impossible to hit something flipping around at mach 10.

And a battle pass system would be terrible. We already have nightwave. In a strictly pve grind game, having a battle pass system would draw people away from the regular farms and stress them out and force them to play pvp to get loot and cosmetics they want. Pvp should be as something that's just for fun and friendly competition instead of a grind to beat other people.

Edited by (PSN)SHINOBISERPENT
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7 hours ago, (PSN)ExcaliburSpecter said:

have a dedicated team to pvp side of things so you have time to work on both pve and pvp

This is the big thing. Or at least, y'know, any iota of half-decent attention.

My personal "best take for PvP" centres around variant modes for a few reasons.

1. Current Conclave is restrictive based on PvE progress. If you're new to Warframe, you're walking into Conclave with starter gear (setting aside current issues of actually getting that gear working in Conclave - let's just assume someone fixes that). If you happen to want to try any of the weapons other players are using, you have to farm those weapons in PvE. That basically boots players out of PvP for a fairly extended period. That's less of an issue if everyone has the same stuff available from the get-go. (This "booting" also applies to loadouts to a lesser degree: fussing with loadouts means less time spent actually playing PvP)

2. The easier it is to get players into a game, the more likely it is for them to end up in that game. We already don't have a ton of material incentive to play Conclave (resource gain is sub-par and exclusive items are a collective "meh" by most players). Wanting the pride of beating other players, or just mucking about with friends, is a fine reward. If you have to spend half an hour setting up a loadout to get to that point, you start chipping at a player's patience. (We have a number of threads talking about not finding games, after all...)

3. PvP bleed-overs are much easier to contain in variant modes (and, if players have the same gear available, are a lot less impactful to balance). An instant-kill Opticor variant doesn't need to worry about shield gating, for example. And you can easily turn off abilities and passives as development of a particular variant requires. They're pretty much their own self-contained boxes.

4. They're easy to develop new updates for. Some crazy concepts, like K-drive racing, might be more in-depth. But it also takes little to no effort to just enable the Nikana and Kunai variant, or Opticor variant, or "Stuggy Wuggy Time" variant where everyone has a Stug and the best weapon in the game gets to truly shine. You can have a virtually constant influx of new PvP content that, while superficial, is at least something new without a huge impact on PvE development. (Not only shows players the mode is getting worked on, but gives developers a little light-hearted creative outlet)

5. They're decently popular. Most players in the forums ask for variants mainly because the main Conclave mode is so broken with PvE bleed-overs. But at the same token, it's not like people hate them, and at least a few have genuinely asked for their return. A fair number of players were questioning where the PvP component was when the first Dog Days dropped. (And, as above: it gives developers a creative outlet, so they don't have to come into Conclave work only from the PoV of a bug-fixer)

And probably a bunch of player psychology stuff, like winning or losing being based solely on skill rather than equipment, the intimate knowledge that the game is balanced pretty much by nature...

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On 2021-09-12 at 11:36 AM, (PSN)ExcaliburSpecter said:

1) add bots or specters to fill unfilled player slots and when a player join it removes a specter.

2) balance all weapons that were unbalanced and removed, also balance the unbalanced weapons that still remain

3) listen to the conclave player base for feedback and bugs

4) make it more rewarding to play and give people motive to play

5) add a battle pass system

6) add ranked matches to balance match making

7) add more fun game modes. I.E necramech pvp, kdrive racing, archwing pvp, open world battle royal, railjack pvp.

8) have a dedicated team to pvp side of things so you have time to work on both pve and pvp

9) make conclave its own dedicated region so no mater what reqion you are it will match everyone up. Also allow crossplay to conclave too

10) increase the player limit to 10 or 12

I can agree with everything u said except #1 and #9. For #9 its pretty simple lag in conclave when players of different regions are playing with each other can be absolutely ridiculous and can completely tip the scales of the match. For #1 i disagree with because thats just a bandaid for the activity problem. With crossplay conclave will be more active if it gets implemented. Even if doesn't theres other ways that are better to improve activity than just being lazy and adding bots and specters

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To be fair:

8 hours ago, (XBOX)GameGhost123 said:

i disagree with because thats just a bandaid for the activity problem.

There's more benefits than merely provoking activity in a match that has a low player count. One thing bots can do decently well is soften skill gap blows. That is, if a low-skilled player matches with higher-skilled players, their course of action isn't just "die over and over until you quit" - there's a chance they can at least beat out some frustration with the fairly brain-dead bots. That's a pretty good boost to player retention and, I believe, a good part of the reason behind grunts in Titanfall.

Also consider that bots factor in only as much as is necessary. If activity is good and lobbies are full, they just don't show up in the first place.

8 hours ago, (XBOX)GameGhost123 said:

With crossplay conclave will be more active if it gets implemented.

With how twitchy Conclave is, I can see a pretty big potential gap between controllers and KBM players. I'm not huge into the PvP scene in other cross-platform games, but I've heard plenty of vitriol exists around that topic. So I can definitely see DE skipping that. (Or just saying "screw it" and going for it anyway. With how other things bleed over into Conclave so much, that wouldn't surprise me either.)

8 hours ago, (XBOX)GameGhost123 said:

theres other ways that are better to improve activity than just being lazy and adding bots and specters

Such as? I mean OP does ask for other ideas.

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On 2021-09-12 at 5:36 PM, (PSN)ExcaliburSpecter said:

1) add bots or specters to fill unfilled player slots and when a player join it removes a specter.

2) balance all weapons that were unbalanced and removed, also balance the unbalanced weapons that still remain

3) listen to the conclave player base for feedback and bugs

4) make it more rewarding to play and give people motive to play

5) add a battle pass system

6) add ranked matches to balance match making

7) add more fun game modes. I.E necramech pvp, kdrive racing, archwing pvp, open world battle royal, railjack pvp.

8) have a dedicated team to pvp side of things so you have time to work on both pve and pvp

9) make conclave its own dedicated region so no mater what reqion you are it will match everyone up. Also allow crossplay to conclave too

10) increase the player limit to 10 or 12

 

I have merely dabbled in Conclave and won't have nearly the same experience some other players have in Conclave, but most of the suggestions seem good, Two points jumped out in terms of possible issues that could arise depending on implementation of the ideas: 

4) Any rewards that relate to PvE shouldn't be too high up on the Conclave rankings - don't want Conclave to become a match-fixing fiasco as players try to get to higher ranks in order to obtain certain items.

9): Lag could be an issue with players from all regions and any aim assist consoles may have, would need to be turned off.

Aside from that, I can simply share why Conclave didn't grab me:

1) Balance and viable variety: Already addressed in the OP. 

2) Lack of ability use: Energy energy energy, or lack thereof. For me, conclave competed with games like Overwatch as well as Warframe PvE in a way - you have great movement and abilities, but unlike some other PvP games or PvE Warframe, in Conclave you just can't use your abilities all that often and some abilities, due to the energy cost, you are better off not using at all. This mechanic just doesn't feel great compared to other options out there.

3) Lack of mods: I get that mods could be hard to balance around Conclave, but boy oh boy, being used to your frame playing a certain way, handling a certain way and not being able to emulate that in Conclave just wasn't as enjoyable.

The lack of players didn't help either and may have impacted my impression more negatively. I'm sure there are people that are happy to make arrangements/form squads to have matches, but I just wasn't interested enough to take those steps.

I don't have any solutions other than "more energy orbs" or  "switch abilities to cooldowns instead of energy" and "enable some mods", so nothing in-depth that considers the current balance in Conclave, but maybe the reasons I didn't gravitate to it are the same as the reasons many others did not gravitate to it, at which point it may be worthwhile in addressing them.

I'll probably pop in there at some stage in the future to see how it is.  Who knows? Maybe things changed, or I changed,by then and I get more enjoyment out of it. Good luck in your quest.

Edited by Silligoose
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On 2021-09-12 at 5:52 PM, (PSN)SHINOBISERPENT said:

I disagree. Conclave shouldnt be pvp. It should be pve vs pve. Warframe is simply too fast paced that the combat system isn't fluid. When a player can backflip, front flip, bullet jump, summersault, and teleport, it becomes inconsistent to shoot people.

Definitely not the case on PC. You can very much shoot people doing all that.

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and you can build a pc upside down, but what's the point?

I THINK that there is a VERY VERY good reason for why conclave is in the state that it's in. it's that people DO NOT like to play it and it's probably because of some of the reasons I listed.  My point being that just because YOU can do something or it's possible to do something doesn't mean it's good. It's like eating crawfish. they're very delicious but does anyone want to work that hard for each little piece of meat? not really.. which makes crawfish a very occasional treat because if you were to eat crawfish everyday, you would be fat and your fingers would be messed up and bloody and dry from tearing apart crawfish shells.

conclave is currently like crawfish. its a lot of work and crazy nonsense that isn't really sustainably fun. after about 2 rounds, you easily either get bored or fall into the "it's only fun when I'm winning" category.  

so it's fine if you like conclave but that doesn't make it good for everyone if only you like it. you can see redeeming qualities in it but the vast majority do not like it. so just because you think it's alright and you like it doesn't mean that it's in a good state and that it doesn't need to be improved. or that everyone doesn't have the problems I listed above. those are my problems with conclave and I'm pretty sure there's someone who agrees with me that just isn't here to say that. and even if there was nobody here, the proof is in the pudding. if conclave was fun to shoot backflipping and rolling and blah blah blah stuff, then more people would like it. if the rewards reflected the difficulty for shooting highly mobile opponents then it would probably be worth it. but you get skins from conclave and a bunch of mods that can only be used in conclave. it just isn't enough fun and  there just aren't good enough rewards for it to incentivize the overwhelming majority of players into playing it.

Edited by (PSN)SHINOBISERPENT
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16 hours ago, (PSN)SHINOBISERPENT said:

I THINK that there is a VERY VERY good reason for why conclave is in the state that it's in. it's that people DO NOT like to play it and it's probably because of some of the reasons I listed. 

 

Ah reasons? Let me tell you:

 

  • Poor balance state through a couple unfixed bugs and unbalanced reworks from 4 years of dev neglect (where most of them are simple single 1 to 0 flag changes in the code if DE could be arsed to move a pinky already)

 

  • unfitting match up system for 8 player endless lobbies with 48 delimited 'spheres' (6 regions * 4 modes * rc enabled/disabled) and this doesn't even take ping limit, private lobbies, already filled lobbies, different server hosted lobbies within the same 'sphere' and bugged lobbies (not full but can't join em) into account... can be easily fixed by a server browser btw

 

  • big skill gap between regulars and the usual pve player cuz in pve your mod build makes up for your gameplay mistakes against a brain dead zerking AI (most players are barely capable of the very basic core mechanics and many even fail at that cuz there is no need to learn them in pve), while in pvp you face other players with equal chances who punish these mistakes and learned to go beyond the basics... flow charts, strategies, player behavior for prediction can all be learned rather quickly, but ppl would have to step down their power fantasy ego to do so...

 

  • "nice mode, nice gameplay but cba to go through that huge pve grind wall to begin with" yes many players from other games like the idea and gameplay of Conclave, but they have no intention to sink months into the game just to get the gear they might like... also to little dev support on Conclave for them to even make a casual slow entrance to the game itself

 

  • years of petty parroted meme and troll posts for forum and /r rep points from toxic ppl, many aspiring small and (in terms of this game) big content creators who lack insight, knowledge and reason when talking about Conclave, who also do the parroting to gain ez trust with the toxic bunch I already mentioned before in hope to get a fame boost... while DE barely ever promotes Conclave in their streams to begin with, neither do they bother to shut down the mass of misinformation and the resulting gossip through clarification, not even sure if such even reaches their radar to begin with
Edited by Loxyen
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3 hours ago, (PSN)SHINOBISERPENT said:

Why do you think there is no matchmaking?

Why do you think there is a skill gap?

Why do you think the devs have neglected it?

I think it's because the devs neglect everything shortly after release. This applies to every single part of the game. New things get introduced, then there's a couple months of bug fixing, balancing, tweaking, etc... Then nothing for many years. This is true of every mission type, every open world, every weapon, frame, pet, etc...

Conclave is no different, there was a strong effort during early days to fix the bugs, balance it, etc... But eventually (like with everything else) they just stopped.

As a development style this doesn't really hurt PvE modes that much because an insanely unbalanced game can still be quite fun! Unfortunately this style does hurt Conclave a lot more because PvP really needs continuous attention to keep it balanced and fair.

So, your implied chronology is wrong. DE didn't neglect conclave because it was a failure. Conclave became a failure after (and because) DE decided to neglect it. I don't really fault the devs here, this cycle of intense attention to complete neglect and back again when they feel like it is exactly the work-style that comes naturally to people who are really passionate about something. 

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26 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

As a development style this doesn't really hurt PvE modes that much because an insanely unbalanced game can still be quite fun! Unfortunately this style does hurt Conclave a lot more because PvP really needs continuous attention to keep it balanced and fair.

I agree, just want to add/clarify for others: continuous attention is only necessary because they didn't separate PvP better from PvE. Its balance is already separate, but changes in PvE can affect that negatively -- for no good reason. And I'm not even talking about changes to core mechanics.

 

I'd add to the OP:

0) Fix bugs, exploits and unintended balance changes that have accumulated over the years.

 

That alone would make it more attractive again.

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I doubt that pvp will ever be ever be popular in the style that warframe is. Warframe's movement in pvp just isnt that fun or balanced. Even lunaro, which is probably the most balanced and fun pvp mode, is completely deserted. Pvp actually wasnt that boring when it was first released many moons ago. But with parkour 2.0 and all the other new things, it just isn't fun. And playing with most of the people that DO play conclave in their little niche just isn't fun. Them people ARE NOT fun to play with. I repeat ARE NOT.  Fun to play with. I dunno. There's just something about the conclave clique that ruins it for me.

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3 hours ago, (PSN)SHINOBISERPENT said:

I doubt that pvp will ever be ever be popular in the style that warframe is. Warframe's movement in pvp just isnt that fun or balanced. Even lunaro, which is probably the most balanced and fun pvp mode, is completely deserted. Pvp actually wasnt that boring when it was first released many moons ago. But with parkour 2.0 and all the other new things, it just isn't fun. And playing with most of the people that DO play conclave in their little niche just isn't fun. Them people ARE NOT fun to play with. I repeat ARE NOT.  Fun to play with. I dunno. There's just something about the conclave clique that ruins it for me.

Well, Console gameplay is of course different, and if you have trouble with console players then that's a community problem.

I'd advise you what I generally do to PC players these days as well: add people you like to play with to your friends list. Easy to get games going that way, too. Especially goes for Lunaro. I can't speak for others, but I strongly prefer the "shooty PvP", but Lunaro was made for people who don't. So while I pretty much don't play that, I really don't understand the hate that mode gets in general.

 

Also, I'm not exclusively playing PvP here, but even after years of neglect it's IMHO still a much better experience than sitting in a spot pressing one button repeatedly, or rush through a level chasing the green extraction marker. Of course, a lot of people are entirely happy with the latter, but that's why we have different game modes after all.

There's no need to turn PvP into more of the same old PvE. If you're not happy with it, then maybe it just isn't for you. It doesn't have to be for everyone.

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18 hours ago, (PSN)SHINOBISERPENT said:

Why do you think there is no matchmaking?

Why do you think there is a skill gap?

Why do you think the devs have neglected it?

 

Because and despite what some toxic meme trolls might wanna say Conclave was never dead and the casual pve match up system worked fine in the days when it received dev support. You could find matches literally almost every time. And if not it ususally was the ping limit, already all existing lobbies were full, or it was something like 4am in the region you tried to search lobbies in and the people of that region who would play even at that hour were either in private matches or sleeping once in a while. Still... a server browser was already requested at that time, but it did not have that much of a priority.

 

Because with all the freedom that eg. the movement system gives and the weapon and Warframe variety we have in Warframe it creates a big pool for individualized gameplay approaches. Like it is in every other games it needs some time to learn the things and build experience. But even then I have witnessed players that started off completely new with no prior Warframe experience and they made the climb in Conclave (and also pve) to be fairly decent and respectable competitive (cuz that was their ambition) within less than a month. That fast time does not count for everyone, because some might wanna approach the game more casually than others, but thats also what makes games with such variety and  skill gap interesting. Because you can see different skill plateaus with different gameplay approaches and it is nice to see how players tweak their gameplay and manage the next step up there. Often learning from observing others or straight up asking for advise and teaching and training also plays a role there, which in my opinion, is a pretty wholesome human interaction.

 

The Conclave rework we play atm has an old road map, but with the big ambition DE took when they tried to create the first open world PoE they miscalculated their time and resource investment since it was a pioneer project in terms of Warframe. So to not let the resulting content drought go on for much longer they involved every available dev to the poe development. The pvp dev included because it wouldn't have hurt much since pvp had its best balance state directly before poe launched and because pve is the main focus of the game. Sadly they never returned the dev to pvp, but had more such ambitious projects planned for the next years (Fortuna, Deimos, Railjack, melee rework etc.)... Actually they announced on stream that 2020 was supposed to be the year where they'd came back to pvp development, but then the global covid pandemic happened and they had to postpone lots of plans including the pvp thing when they had to spent time for the work from home restructure. During Tennocon in Tenno Live Scott mentioned work or discussions about pvp briefly, but thats all we know so far.. not what it is, neither when.

 

 

6 hours ago, (PSN)SHINOBISERPENT said:

Warframe's movement in pvp just isnt that fun or balanced. Even lunaro, which is probably the most balanced and fun pvp mode, is completely deserted.

 

Its actually balanced pretty well. You got your effective hit points (ehp) and you got your mobility stat. E.g. the less mobility the slower you are, but the tankier your Warframe. imho its a pretty well balanced system. There are a couple outliners now due to new Prime Warframes making it into Conclave during these 4 years of dev neglect without getting balanced. But its just a very few.

Lunaro has other causes. The pve community at that time asked for a Conclave mode that does not include killing other Tennos. So DE decided to implement a Rocket League alike ball sport game, which these players never expected. Lunaro suffers from 2 major things. The first would be that those players were just ranting about Conclave and never intended to play it, even after DE decided to implement something that fulfilled what they asked for. And the other problem is the poor netcoding of Lunaro. You can see that Lunaro got put together in a rush. On launch it had a couple bugs, but was fairly playable. Later on during the couple early fixes and changes other problems got introduced. For example the weird coding and ball behavior and lag causing more trouble than before. Depending on the ping some people can catch instable balls, players that are behind you catch the ball earlier than you and with the later implemented tackle resistance laggy players can ignore your one chance of interrupting them and continue to score easily. Its a shame that it has come to that, but DE dropped development on Lunaro pretty quick.

Edited by Loxyen
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I don`t like conclave however I am open for some improvements. For one I think that only operators and the on-call crew should be the characters you play in conclave, this alone addresses the issue of ppl jumping and bullet jumping everywhere making it harder for ppl to attack them.

As for a game-mode I would like to see k-drive racing in conclave that is similar to mario karts but the pick-ups are warframe abilities. This alone would make me want to play in conclave.

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