Top 10 Ways To Revive Conclave

[CrownOfShadows]

On 2021-09-12 at 9:52 AM, (PSN)SHINOBISERPENT said:

I disagree. Conclave shouldnt be pvp. It should be pve vs pve.

I agree with this guy's entire post. I know there's a group of people who actually like conclave the way it is and just want some balance changes and matchmaking and stuff, but I will NEVER play it in it's current format, the entire system has to change before I will even look at it, it's like playing the Grendel missions only much, much worse, and I think that goes for most of the WF community, idk, would be interesting to see a poll.

I DO want pvp, because it would fill the great lulls between content drops, but the only true way to implement it in warframe without knee-capping everyone seems to be as he says, pve vs pve, or as I mentioned in another post somewhere, a whole new roster of pvp-specific frames that are designed for pvp from the ground up. Kdrives and necramechs and maybe RJ would be fun, but idk how much long term interest they would hold for me, and tbh even necramechs in their current form seem pretty hard to balance for pvp, though it's certainly a step in the right direction.

The Paths Forward:

• PvE vs PvE
• A Whole New System
• Bandaids for existing conclave
• Alternative PvP (kdrives,necramechs,RJ,archwing)

Personally i hope for #1 or #2, those would be things I would be avidly interested in. #4 would be lower hanging fruit but possibly still fun and something I would try. #3 would be me never looking at it still.

[Rubbertubtub01]

2 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

I agree with this guy's entire post. I know there's a group of people who actually like conclave the way it is and just want some balance changes and matchmaking and stuff, but I will NEVER play it in it's current format, the entire system has to change before I will even look at it, it's like playing the Grendel missions only much, much worse, and I think that goes for most of the WF community, idk, would be interesting to see a poll.

I DO want pvp, because it would fill the great lulls between content drops, but the only true way to implement it in warframe without knee-capping everyone seems to be as he says, pve vs pve, or as I mentioned in another post somewhere, a whole new roster of pvp-specific frames that are designed for pvp from the ground up. Kdrives and necramechs and maybe RJ would be fun, but idk how much long term interest they would hold for me, and tbh even necramechs in their current form seem pretty hard to balance for pvp, though it's certainly a step in the right direction.

The Paths Forward:

• PvE vs PvE
• A Whole New System
• Bandaids for existing conclave
• Alternative PvP (kdrives,necramechs,RJ,archwing)

Personally i hope for #1 or #2, those would be things I would be avidly interested in. #4 would be lower hanging fruit but possibly still fun and something I would try. #3 would be me never looking at it still.

 

The whole point of Conclave is for it to be PvP... What you're suggesting is completely removing it's intended point of existence. I don't know about you, but when I played as the Grineer and Corpus in The New War, it was so slow and boring. Removing the current Conclave in exchange for that is a total downgrade. 

What they need to do is:

• Consolidate all Warframes Shield, HP, Armour and Mobility valves to the same amount. (ex. 145 shield, 110 hp, 100 armour, 0.8 mob.) Keeping the ±mob ±ehp (not ncl) mods to go to 0.9 and 0.7 if you want to be squishy/tanky. (Having the mobility capped at 0.9 will make it easier to aim)
• Re-Balance weapons to the above stats. 
• Remove shield gating from Conclave (obviously)
• Remove 100% melee blocking (obviously)
• Remove the Telos Boltace and Wolf Sledge (obviously)
• Remove the damage reduction mods
• Optional: Remove the use of abilities and give each warframe a "Conclave passive" like how Mesa reloads faster or something like that.
• Bots to fill the rest of the player slots so the matches aren't empty
• Some sort of SBMM in the future if player numbers are up. (better than RC)

Doing these few things would go a LONG way to improving Conclave. 

[Tyreaus]

16 minutes ago, Rubbertubtub01 said:

What they need to do is:

Only thing I'd say is missing is some sort of "farm bypass". Like giving players access to all Conclave-eligible weapons and Warframes, whatever those might be. (Insofar as uniqueness goes: obviously they don't need access to the Prime frame if it's identical to the regular in everything but appearance)

I mentioned in my first post how the current setup encourages players not to play Conclave to get things to use in Conclave. If you want people to play Conclave, you should be making that as straightforward as possible. Having them jump out of Conclave to play the rest of the game for a good while to get some weapon to use in Conclave is quite the opposite of that.

21 minutes ago, Rubbertubtub01 said:

• Re-Balance weapons to the above stats. 
• Remove shield gating from Conclave (obviously)

Part of me does wonder if it'd be acceptable to remove shields altogether, use Tenno health values (for balance simplicity - take damage, ROF, headshot multi, and that's it), and rebalance weapons from there. Trying to untie the underlying code could be a huge pain, but we know they can just turn shields off. Does mean the weapon swap meta hits the road, but...?

[(XBOX)GameGhost123]

29 minutes ago, Rubbertubtub01 said:

 

The whole point of Conclave is for it to be PvP... What you're suggesting is completely removing it's intended point of existence. I don't know about you, but when I played as the Grineer and Corpus in The New War, it was so slow and boring. Removing the current Conclave in exchange for that is a total downgrade. 

What they need to do is:

• Consolidate all Warframes Shield, HP, Armour and Mobility valves to the same amount. (ex. 145 shield, 110 hp, 100 armour, 0.8 mob.) Keeping the ±mob ±ehp (not ncl) mods to go to 0.9 and 0.7 if you want to be squishy/tanky. (Having the mobility capped at 0.9 will make it easier to aim)
• Re-Balance weapons to the above stats. 
• Remove shield gating from Conclave (obviously)
• Remove 100% melee blocking (obviously)
• Remove the Telos Boltace and Wolf Sledge (obviously)
• Remove the damage reduction mods
• Optional: Remove the use of abilities and give each warframe a "Conclave passive" like how Mesa reloads faster or something like that.
• Bots to fill the rest of the player slots so the matches aren't empty
• Some sort of SBMM in the future if player numbers are up. (better than RC)

Doing these few things would go a LONG way to improving Conclave. 

U tell em 😤

[CrownOfShadows]

1 hour ago, Rubbertubtub01 said:

 

The whole point of Conclave is for it to be PvP... What you're suggesting is completely removing it's intended point of existence

Eh...no i think you missed it, what I'm saying is that it's not possible or practical to balance frames for pvp. They aren't designed for it, straight up. We all know this.

If you want to use frames, the only real way to accomplish that (short of making it like it is now with a few improvements) is pve pvp (and just because it's indirect doesn't mean it's not pvp). That's why people recommend it so much - it takes everything we love about regular warframe and makes a pvp mode out of it with ZERO balance concerns.

OR you start fresh, make things actually designed for pvp. You want to remove all abilities, all mods, equalize all weapons, normalize all values... geez, yeah no, that's not warframes, that's cardboard boxes and about as fun - i'd very much prefer to just be grineer / corpus at that point like Nightseid suggested.

[Rubbertubtub01]

1 hour ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Eh...no i think you missed it, what I'm saying is that it's not possible or practical to balance frames for pvp. They aren't designed for it, straight up. We all know this.

If you want to use frames, the only real way to accomplish that (short of making it like it is now with a few improvements) is pve pvp (and just because it's indirect doesn't mean it's not pvp). That's why people recommend it so much - it takes everything we love about regular warframe and makes a pvp mode out of it with ZERO balance concerns.

OR you start fresh, make things actually designed for pvp. You want to remove all abilities, all mods, equalize all weapons, normalize all values... geez, yeah no, that's not warframes, that's cardboard boxes and about as fun - i'd very much prefer to just be grineer / corpus at that point like Nightseid suggested.

What I recommended is exactly Warframe, keeping us playing in our actual Warframes, and normalizing the values so you can play whatever Warframe you want to play.

What you want is a worse version of Battlefront...

[CrownOfShadows]

If you like it the way it basically is, hey, more power to you, this is your dream time minus a few tweaks.

Me and most of the rest of WF will never play it, we want something better.

[(PSN)PRINCE_ALI_1985]

I’d like to add 1 thing to conclave more then anything better netcode or servers because what turns me off from it is the connection

[Kontrollo]

2 hours ago, (PSN)PRINCE_ALI_1985 said:

I’d like to add 1 thing to conclave more then anything better netcode or servers because what turns me off from it is the connection

There are servers on PC at least. Might just have to wait for cross-play.

But "netcode" isn't that much of a problem unless you experience rubberbanding/teleporting and other things clearly cause by bad connections. Hit detection in this game is client-side.

[Wolfdoggie]

Just add an umbra forma as standing reward.

Also need a way to queue without sitting inside the matchmaking menu forever.

[BeardyKyle]

On 2021-09-12 at 12:52 PM, (PSN)SHINOBISERPENT said:

I disagree. Conclave shouldnt be pvp. It should be pve vs pve. Warframe is simply too fast paced that the combat system isn't fluid. When a player can backflip, front flip, bullet jump, summersault, and teleport, it becomes inconsistent to shoot people. It's no longer a matter of skill. It's a matter of, "Do we enjoy playing this or just winning?" There's a distinct difference. When you only enjoy winning, you don't enjoy the game itself. Losing becomes a punishment on yourself. Winning however boosts the competitive ego. However enjoying the game allows the loser and the winner to grow. It's no longer about just winning. It's about fairness and getting better.

Warframe was never a pvp game. It just had pvp slapped in it without any intention of it being good or balanced. So the best way to compete in a pve game is to pit two teams of players against enemies and outkill each other. Lunaro is kinda fun though. Destiny has a good pvp system and it is constantly being improved and rebalanced. The movement system is fluid and also allows higher agility classes to have a slight edge while also not being too powerful. Same with the other classes. But warframe cannot have this because it is a game based on being as powerful as possible. So you have to place power against power. Instead of "who can bullet jump and flip and run and pop out of corners the best?" It should be "who knows the game the best? And who has the best build to handle enemies in the pve game?" And there should be a matchmaking system based on rank or skill or previous wins and losses.

I agree with you on the racing and stuff. Racing is straight forward and fair. And railjack has a good pacing to it so I can agree there. But players should not be able to fly into another's ship, bullet jump and flip around and then nuke everybody on board. Players also should not be nerfed to the ground to play against one another. That's what I mean by fair. Because a person can run away in pvp and never be killed. While a person can try to sit still to shoot someone and immediately be stabbed in the back.

Destiny has a game mode that puts players against hordes of enemies and killing enemies and doing some other crap sends enemies to other groups. So the goal isn't to kill the opponent, it's to overwhelm them by killing faster. 

Hide and seek is also something that, no matter how childish it seems, is always fun. 

Having a paintball set of rules would be nice. Where if you get hit once you are out. It would balance the side of bullet jumping constantly and running away with actual skill. Maybe have a specific gun that has less firerate and splashes opponents with a color. 

But it shouldn't be the way it is now where you have to shoot someone15 times while they are flipping and flopping and shoot around corners and jumping and dodging and blocking.... just to get a kill. 

I'm saying all this cause I like fair pvp but I don't like the tryhard nature of pvp. You lose in pvp in warframe and you get called trash when it's nearly impossible to hit something flipping around at mach 10.

And a battle pass system would be terrible. We already have nightwave. In a strictly pve grind game, having a battle pass system would draw people away from the regular farms and stress them out and force them to play pvp to get loot and cosmetics they want. Pvp should be as something that's just for fun and friendly competition instead of a grind to beat other people.

I'd prefer this suggestion to be worked into raids. 1 team of 4 pve players vs another team of 4 pve players. Clan battles, dark sectors, that kind of thing.

Pvp should 100% be it's own thing. It just needs to be better and more consistent - tbh it will never be unless the massive power creep in pve is addressed and balanced. 

[Tyreaus]

1 hour ago, BeardyKyle said:

it will never be unless the massive power creep in pve is addressed and balanced.

It is. Stats in Conclave are toned down (Vectis Prime goes from 350 to 107) and mods like Serration or Vital Sense flat-out aren't in the mode. The only sticking issues are a few PvE bleed-overs, like shield gating and 100% damage block on melee and Telos Boltace ragdoll, that just don't work very well in a PvP setting and have yet to be addressed.

[BeardyKyle]

On 2022-06-24 at 10:59 AM, Tyreaus said:

It is. Stats in Conclave are toned down (Vectis Prime goes from 350 to 107) and mods like Serration or Vital Sense flat-out aren't in the mode. The only sticking issues are a few PvE bleed-overs, like shield gating and 100% damage block on melee and Telos Boltace ragdoll, that just don't work very well in a PvP setting and have yet to be addressed.

I know. I said PVE. 

The transition to pvp is so jarring, you move slower, you have less weapons and mods. It's a big nerf from PVE gameplay. I think PVE gameplay needs to be nerfed slightly to make the transition less noticeable and ultimately more fun

[Tyreaus]

1 hour ago, BeardyKyle said:

I know. I said PVE. 

The transition to pvp is so jarring, you move slower, you have less weapons and mods. It's a big nerf from PVE gameplay. I think PVE gameplay needs to be nerfed slightly to make the transition less noticeable and ultimately more fun

I strongly doubt there is a way to make the transition less noticeable, at least in any worthwhile sense.

1. PvE is far too fundamentally different from PvP. The major discrepancies would stick around no matter what smaller changes (like to movement speed) would be introduced. The powers to handle armies of enemies don't translate super well to one-on-one encounters, and every player will feel that.
2. It's regressive. We've actually seen glimpses of what each could look like in the state of the other. PvP used to allow PvE mods and weapons. PvE used to be a slower, more tactical shooter. I wasn't around for those eras but I think most would agree their current states are pretty big improvements.
3. It's a metric ton of work to balance everything for PvP like that. Weapons alone are rough enough. Mods too? That's insane. And that's best case of "going down to PvP level". Rebalancing those for PvE and separately PvP is double that workload.
4. A number of mechanics and designs create irreconcilable discrepancies. Take shield gating. In PvE, you can only get one-shot with toxin, and even then it takes really high levels (and not playing Inaros) to get to that point. In PvP, a well-placed Daikyu headshot can do it as soon as you start playing. The latter situation doesn't exist in PvE.
5. Balance and feel are major factors. If we up mobility, we'd have to look at lowering durability. Does that feel better? It might - to a point. And that point might still lie shy of proper parallel. Same with abilities, either in strength or accessibility or both. And, if we start this from the PvP-balance side, do either of those still feel good in PvE? Again: the powers to handle armies of enemies don't translate super well to one-on-one encounters. Vice versa counts, too.

I wouldn't be against some small changes, like upping movement speed a touch and lowering durability with faster respawns. Removing shield gate is top of the list on that. But that does nothing for all the other speedbumps in the PvE to PvP transition. And some of those bumps might be in a schoolzone where they're kind of important.

[BeardyKyle]

17 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

I strongly doubt there is a way to make the transition less noticeable, at least in any worthwhile sense.

1. PvE is far too fundamentally different from PvP. The major discrepancies would stick around no matter what smaller changes (like to movement speed) would be introduced. The powers to handle armies of enemies don't translate super well to one-on-one encounters, and every player will feel that.
2. It's regressive. We've actually seen glimpses of what each could look like in the state of the other. PvP used to allow PvE mods and weapons. PvE used to be a slower, more tactical shooter. I wasn't around for those eras but I think most would agree their current states are pretty big improvements.
3. It's a metric ton of work to balance everything for PvP like that. Weapons alone are rough enough. Mods too? That's insane. And that's best case of "going down to PvP level". Rebalancing those for PvE and separately PvP is double that workload.
4. A number of mechanics and designs create irreconcilable discrepancies. Take shield gating. In PvE, you can only get one-shot with toxin, and even then it takes really high levels (and not playing Inaros) to get to that point. In PvP, a well-placed Daikyu headshot can do it as soon as you start playing. The latter situation doesn't exist in PvE.
5. Balance and feel are major factors. If we up mobility, we'd have to look at lowering durability. Does that feel better? It might - to a point. And that point might still lie shy of proper parallel. Same with abilities, either in strength or accessibility or both. And, if we start this from the PvP-balance side, do either of those still feel good in PvE? Again: the powers to handle armies of enemies don't translate super well to one-on-one encounters. Vice versa counts, too.

I wouldn't be against some small changes, like upping movement speed a touch and lowering durability with faster respawns. Removing shield gate is top of the list on that. But that does nothing for all the other speedbumps in the PvE to PvP transition. And some of those bumps might be in a schoolzone where they're kind of important.

1. This post details how to balance pve in terms of modding, damage and enemy scaling with relatively lightweight changes. TL;DR: 1. limit the amount of certain types of mods you're allowed to equip on a weapon. It doesn't require changing any functionality or dependencies, simply add an equip limit at the loadout screen. 2. Change like 4 values for enemy armor scaling.  

2. There's another post about limiting the bullet jump momentum *slightly* in place of adding better parkour (wall run + object traversal) - Ideally this doesn't nerf freedom of movement, it just changes the way it is achieved from a bullet jump spam to a more tactical environment traversal.

3. Adding shield gating to pvp would be good. 

These changes put PvE and PvP much closer to each other. While still maintaining the power fantasy of PvE and power balance of PvP. That's the direction I think Warframe is ultimately going to have to go in in another 5 years maybe. This community is too sensitive to change.

[Tyreaus]

4 hours ago, BeardyKyle said:

Adding shield gating to pvp would be good. 

Hold up...

Is this a typo? If it isn't, how much Conclave experience do you have?

It has shield gating. Not as an idea. It's in there right now. That's why I mentioned removing it.

Ordinarily, I don't care about experience, but if you're not that familiar with Conclave, that's going to make sorting out balance concerns really difficult. It's hard enough for me to do and I actually play it on occasion.

That aside...being honest, you didn't really respond to anything I'd written. What I wrote applies just as well to PublikDomain's proposal: it either gets adapted to PvP and, by a number of opinions, we take steps backwards; or it remains PvE only, we keep an assortment of discrepancies, and it becomes off-topic because it - by definition - doesn't pertain to Conclave.

 

[Tyreaus]

Weird double-post.

[BeardyKyle]

15 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

Hold up...

Is this a typo? If it isn't, how much Conclave experience do you have?

It has shield gating. Not as an idea. It's in there right now. That's why I mentioned removing it.

Ordinarily, I don't care about experience, but if you're not that familiar with Conclave, that's going to make sorting out balance concerns really difficult. It's hard enough for me to do and I actually play it on occasion.

Ah from the previous post about the daikyu I assumed you meant shield gating wasn't in pvp. My bad. 

I haven't played pvp in minute. I've tried several times over the last month but matchmaking takes too long. Though I don't see how shield gating would be a bad thing.

15 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

That aside...being honest, you didn't really respond to anything I'd written. What I wrote applies just as well to PublikDomain's proposal: it either gets adapted to PvP and, by a number of opinions, we take steps backwards; or it remains PvE only, we keep an assortment of discrepancies, and it becomes off-topic because it - by definition - doesn't pertain to Conclave.

I did.

You mentioned the "major rebalancing" that would be needed. PublikDomain's proposal addresses this entirely at least where PvE is concerned. Simply "nerfing" PvE with these suggestions would make the transition to PvP less noticiable without actually making any changes to PvP. 

I mentioned the post about nerfing bullet jumping and adding better parkour as a response to "increasing movement speed and lowering durability" - I would suggest that those changes to movement would benefit the overall gameplay. Essentially reduce bullet jump spamming, introduce more tactical traversal means. 

I say this because PvP is barebones warframe. No powerful mods, no indefinite ability casting. It comes down to who is better at the movement system and how good that system is. Once the movement system can be further refined then we can start to look at other aspects.

 

 

[Tyreaus]

5 hours ago, BeardyKyle said:

Though I don't see how shield gating would be a bad thing.

For one, there's a pretty drastic effect on balance. Mire is great because it has chunky Toxin damage that can bypass shield gate, as an example. Because headshots bypass the 1,3 second shield gate, any weapons that were balanced with body hits in mind - less-accurate auto weapons with their 1.2x headshot multiplier - are skewed downward. Inaros and Nidus also take a right kicking in the nuts.

The other problem is that it makes the mode even less new-player friendly. The effective gap in the past was 1.2-1.5x damage - the headshot multiplier. With shield gating, and assuming an old body-shot TTK of 1 second, the gap more than doubles to 2.77-3.43x. That's conservative: the actual old TTK was likely lower than 1 second, increasing that multiplier further. That doesn't account for the 1.3 seconds of invulnerability a new player wouldn't bypass but a skilled player would, granting the skilled player more of an opportunity to escape and heal. Those effects compound to discourage new and less skilled players from playing: many don't like playing when the cards are so stacked against them, after all. But you kind of need those players for the mode to function long-term.

6 hours ago, BeardyKyle said:

I did.

...you may want to double-check what I wrote then, because your one response to the five items I listed:

6 hours ago, BeardyKyle said:

You mentioned the "major rebalancing" that would be needed. PublikDomain's proposal addresses this entirely at least where PvE is concerned. Simply "nerfing" PvE with these suggestions would make the transition to PvP less noticiable without actually making any changes to PvP. 

Talks about PvE when I wrote of the "metric ton of work to balance everything for PvP like that." The other reply is just detail on what I said I wouldn't mind.

Moreover, if you don't want to make any changes to PvP, then it doesn't really pertain to this thread. Or to Conclave. Be happy to discuss PvP changes or extant issues with PvP, of course, or discuss PvE changes elsewhere.

[thetdw2000]

We already have the option to purchase fully built Excalibur, Mag, and Volt from the conclave at rank 5. I think if people were able to buy other warframes as well as weapons (at lower ranks) we would see more people playing. One (perhaps minor) reason I think people don't want to delve into conclave is because while you play it you aren't playing the PvE game which means you're basically falling behind. Being able to get warframes and weapons (fully built) in conclave as an alternative to unlocking them in PvE would give a decent reason to play it.

[BeardyKyle]

On 2021-09-12 at 12:52 PM, (PSN)SHINOBISERPENT said:

"who can bullet jump and flip and run and pop out of corners the best?" It should be "who knows the game the best? And who has the best build to handle enemies in the pve game?"

I don't agree with this. The game would become who puts more time into acquiring god tier stuff, or pay to win. Keep the PvE vs PvE idea for something like raids, or an expansion on the railjack system (the one they showcased, not the one we got). 

Conclave should remain PvP and should be rebalanced to be skill based. Currently it is really fun to play with the flipping and soaring and gliding. It's very challenging and the skill gap is real but it's still fun.

Personally I think there needs to be more variety in PvP and it also needs to be a completely separate experience from PvE. PvP should be less about being powerful and more about tactics, stealth, timing. The PvP experience needs to be a heavily nerfed version of PvE to achieve this. People lose their S#&$ when you suggest this but think about it like this, Conclave is basically Tenno training and honing their skills. You don't go into sparring trying to kill your partner.