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The Nerfing of things in this game doesn't help balance it only shifts lack of balance onto a different item.


(XBOX)Harbinger XK5
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in the years this game has been out never once was it actually balanced and the reason for that is because DE primarily relies on nerfs and mediocre buffs in a failed attempt to balance rather than addressing some of the real issues which are:

.1 Enemy armor scaling

.2 Lack of a truly descriptive tutorial.

.3 The sheer lack of weapons capable of extremely high level content.

.4 outrageously unrewarding drop pools

Let's say for example DE were to buff the base stats of the weapons that you build to be more compatible with endgame content when modded right, this would open up a wider variety of weapons for people to use and in the process make the game more enjoyable for people because they're not stuck with the decision of only doing not endgame content or conforming to the current metas. so rather than nerfing everything bring the capability of the other content up to a reasonable level.

the drop pools on the other hand is a much more complicated issue because it needs to be reworked from the ground up

however this still leaves us with the ridiculous armor scaling issue and tutorial that drops off and leaves you with no idea what's going on.

now for the armor scaling issue the simplest solution would be to add a cap to enemy armor scaling, but what really should be done is have the armor scaling systems percentage values not shoot up so ridiculously.

Now for the issue of the tutorial which is a very big problem given that all of the people I talk to say that tutorial didn't tell them what they needed to know such how modding worked and stuff like and how if it weren't for veteran players guiding them through it they would have just quit.

I understand that doing this isn't simple but it is needed if this game is to truly last and thrive.

but i love this game and want nothing more for it to utilize it's full potential which unfortunately is not happening currently.

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8 minutes ago, (XBOX)Harbinger XK5 said:

in the years this game has been out never once was it actually balanced and the reason for that is because DE primarily relies on nerfs and mediocre buffs in a failed attempt to balance rather than addressing some of the real issues which are:

.1 Enemy armor scaling

.2 Lack of a truly descriptive tutorial.

.3 The sheer lack of weapons capable of extremely high level content.

.4 outrageously unrewarding drop pools

Let's say for example DE were to buff the base stats of the weapons that you build to be more compatible with endgame content when modded right, this would open up a wider variety of weapons for people to use and in the process make the game more enjoyable for people because they're not stuck with the decision of only doing not endgame content or conforming to the current metas. so rather than nerfing everything bring the capability of the other content up to a reasonable level.

the drop pools on the other hand is a much more complicated issue because it needs to be reworked from the ground up

however this still leaves us with the ridiculous armor scaling issue and tutorial that drops off and leaves you with no idea what's going on.

now for the armor scaling issue the simplest solution would be to add a cap to enemy armor scaling, but what really should be done is have the armor scaling systems percentage values not shoot up so ridiculously.

Now for the issue of the tutorial which is a very big problem given that all of the people I talk to say that tutorial didn't tell them what they needed to know such how modding worked and stuff like and how if it weren't for veteran players guiding them through it they would have just quit.

I understand that doing this isn't simple but it is needed if this game is to truly last and thrive.

but i love this game and want nothing more for it to utilize it's full potential which unfortunately is not happening currently.

This complaint has been said several times, and I agree with it:

Poorly explained mechanisms.

Unexplained content.

Drastic changes that affects gameplay which is poorly explained (or not explained at all) so it’s not understandable. 
 

Ridiculous changes such as a spike of damage resistance or armour scaling.

Most of the things I know now were explained by players who had to spend weeks/months testing stuff to actually find out how the game works because it’s not explained that well. A lot of things are under or unexplained. Instead of making the OP things weak, balance out all the weak things so the things we now consider op are not so high up compared to 90% of all weapons/frames. The tutorials don’t explain much and I’m pretty sure I’m not the only person who’s googled 100 “HOW TO” “WHERE TO” “WHY DOES” “WHERE DO I” “HOW DO I GET” “ “WHAT DO I DO IF” “HOW DO I KILL” every time you play the game. 

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My last forum on this topic was more of a rant that didn't get across what I meant to, so I'm glad that this approach seems to be yielding better results. if we're lucky maybe DE will take this advice and finally make their game into the masterpiece it could be.

Edited by (XBOX)Harbinger XK5
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8 minutes ago, (XBOX)Harbinger XK5 said:

My last forum on this topic was more of a rant that didn't get across what I meant to, so I'm glad that this approach seems to be yielding better results. if we're lucky maybe DE will take this advice and finally make their game into the masterpiece it could be.

Agreed, however I am quite curious as to how your “last forum” turned out.

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5 hours ago, (XBOX)Harbinger XK5 said:

but what really should be done is have the armor scaling systems percentage values not shoot up so ridiculously.

They already did this 1.5 years ago. 

After level 75 armor now scales logarithmically, instead of exponentially. A pretty massive nerf to armor.

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5 hours ago, (XBOX)Harbinger XK5 said:

.2 Lack of a truly descriptive tutorial.

They have made efforts to improve on this in the last year or so, but that's not to say they could do a whole lot more. Honestly I find it baffling why they haven't simply integrated the wiki and offered better details to them in exchange, so as to better player knowledge and accessibility to said knowledge.

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I think the intro quest is actually quite good at explaining how to play the missions. Where the lack of tutorials suffers is how do anything outside of shoot, use powers, or parkour. The Josh Strife Hayes video of "Worst MMO Ever?: Warframe" (before you get your pitchforks out, it's just a title, and he actually quite liked the game, but...), mods are highlighted as the least welcoming aspect of the game. Brozime even pointed out in his watch of the video that JSH didn't even have a stance on his Mk-1 Bo. But the game does not tell you how modding works. Yeah, there's a "tutorial" button, but it's a few static Captura dioramas with some text. It doesn't explain very easily "If you match the symbols the mods are cheaper, but if they're mismatched they're more expensive," and it doesn't have a pop-up that says "Hey, you wanna equip a stance/aura?" Not to mention how much a time and resource sink leveling mods is.

Then there's the mess that is the codex. Let's ignore the Smash Bros. tier menu design. What, exactly, in-game tells you how to form elemental combos? That's right, a menu buried behind another menu inside of the codex, which most players will probably ignore. The way you learn who statuses do is also not even IN the codex, it's done by hovering over your damage types, something I've seen players completely ignore. Then I have other gripes, like how relics and arcanes occupy the same page in the codex despite having literally zero relation. The fact that if you want to look up drop tables, DE DOES publish them but they aren't in the game. If you want to look up a mod you don't have, the codex censors it, but if you link it in chat, you can read what it does. I understand that hand-holding gets old fast, but as soon as that intro quest ends, you're expected to have the same level of knowledge, or at least instincts, as a veteran.

Drop tables are a point of contention. On one hand, free to play game. Believe it or not, the game isn't free so players can be happy. The game is free so DE can hook as many players on the shooting and melee enough to convince them to buy stuff for platinum, while still keeping things just out of reach enough to prevent the average player from just getting them easily. On the other hand, whoever thought 50 endo fits in the same drop category as a rare mod is having a laugh. A lot of the garbage items were culled with a recent update, but man. Some drop rates are just confusing. Did you know that (according to the Wiki) Tempo Royale has a 0.0603% chance of dropping from Isolator Bursas? Did you know that Isolator Bursas are incredibly rare enemies? Tempo Royale is by far, in my opinion, the best heavy blade stance, so you need it.

As for your other points: armor was recently reworked, as it has been said. Armor sharply rises between levels 50 and 80, but starts to level off once you hit level 100. I also don't get why you think there are only a handful of meta endgame weapons. Especially now that there are the arcanes and galvanized mods, there are some surprise hits, like the Phantasma. Honestly, I've been running the Corinth Prime, a weapon that was kind of met with a giant "meh" from the community. Thing shreds. I do think a huge problem is how strong viral and slash is, though.

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The "high level" argument never really makes much sense. Buffing weapons to the point they clear "high level" the same way they do "low level' just makes "high level" also "low level"; just with more enemies [SP] and higher damage being dealt, either of which just restricts Warframe choice which is seemingly ignored. If enemies deal a lot of damage, any Warframe that has a function tied to protecting HP become completely irrelevant. Other functions being useless with a combination of higher damage and hp, such as how Mesa goes from obliterating things to then just using Helminth to replace her Peace Makers and converting to a generic weapon platform shield gate abuser.

If anything, this is more of an argument towards SP just being a mistake/failure. Other than Kuva, it's not as if it's rewarding in the first place and it's still dethatched from most of the game's actual grinds.

"High level" is also subjective. Some view SP as high, others think only max level enemies are high. Balancing weapons around DE's actual high level, which is standard star chart around the 50-100s, SP levels, and endless levels is not realistic and these very different view points and DE trying to appease them all is partly why things are a mess.

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6 hours ago, (NSW)Electropuncher said:

I think the intro quest is actually quite good at explaining how to play the missions. Where the lack of tutorials suffers is how do anything outside of shoot, use powers, or parkour. The Josh Strife Hayes video of "Worst MMO Ever?: Warframe" (before you get your pitchforks out, it's just a title, and he actually quite liked the game, but...), mods are highlighted as the least welcoming aspect of the game. Brozime even pointed out in his watch of the video that JSH didn't even have a stance on his Mk-1 Bo. But the game does not tell you how modding works. Yeah, there's a "tutorial" button, but it's a few static Captura dioramas with some text. It doesn't explain very easily "If you match the symbols the mods are cheaper, but if they're mismatched they're more expensive," and it doesn't have a pop-up that says "Hey, you wanna equip a stance/aura?" Not to mention how much a time and resource sink leveling mods is.

Then there's the mess that is the codex. Let's ignore the Smash Bros. tier menu design. What, exactly, in-game tells you how to form elemental combos? That's right, a menu buried behind another menu inside of the codex, which most players will probably ignore. The way you learn who statuses do is also not even IN the codex, it's done by hovering over your damage types, something I've seen players completely ignore. Then I have other gripes, like how relics and arcanes occupy the same page in the codex despite having literally zero relation. The fact that if you want to look up drop tables, DE DOES publish them but they aren't in the game. If you want to look up a mod you don't have, the codex censors it, but if you link it in chat, you can read what it does. I understand that hand-holding gets old fast, but as soon as that intro quest ends, you're expected to have the same level of knowledge, or at least instincts, as a veteran.

Drop tables are a point of contention. On one hand, free to play game. Believe it or not, the game isn't free so players can be happy. The game is free so DE can hook as many players on the shooting and melee enough to convince them to buy stuff for platinum, while still keeping things just out of reach enough to prevent the average player from just getting them easily. On the other hand, whoever thought 50 endo fits in the same drop category as a rare mod is having a laugh. A lot of the garbage items were culled with a recent update, but man. Some drop rates are just confusing. Did you know that (according to the Wiki) Tempo Royale has a 0.0603% chance of dropping from Isolator Bursas? Did you know that Isolator Bursas are incredibly rare enemies? Tempo Royale is by far, in my opinion, the best heavy blade stance, so you need it.

As for your other points: armor was recently reworked, as it has been said. Armor sharply rises between levels 50 and 80, but starts to level off once you hit level 100. I also don't get why you think there are only a handful of meta endgame weapons. Especially now that there are the arcanes and galvanized mods, there are some surprise hits, like the Phantasma. Honestly, I've been running the Corinth Prime, a weapon that was kind of met with a giant "meh" from the community. Thing shreds. I do think a huge problem is how strong viral and slash is, though.

i don't consider anything under level 1000 to be engame

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5 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

The "high level" argument never really makes much sense. Buffing weapons to the point they clear "high level" the same way they do "low level' just makes "high level" also "low level"; just with more enemies [SP] and higher damage being dealt, either of which just restricts Warframe choice which is seemingly ignored. If enemies deal a lot of damage, any Warframe that has a function tied to protecting HP become completely irrelevant. Other functions being useless with a combination of higher damage and hp, such as how Mesa goes from obliterating things to then just using Helminth to replace her Peace Makers and converting to a generic weapon platform shield gate abuser.

If anything, this is more of an argument towards SP just being a mistake/failure. Other than Kuva, it's not as if it's rewarding in the first place and it's still dethatched from most of the game's actual grinds.

"High level" is also subjective. Some view SP as high, others think only max level enemies are high. Balancing weapons around DE's actual high level, which is standard star chart around the 50-100s, SP levels, and endless levels is not realistic and these very different view points and DE trying to appease them all is partly why things are a mess.

level 50-100s are low almost any weapon in the game if modded right can kill them but for the large number of people who like to do endurance runs that's when their potential dies off.

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7 hours ago, (NSW)Electropuncher said:

also don't get why you think there are only a handful of meta endgame weapons. Especially now that there are the arcanes and galvanized mods

those said arcanes and galvanized mods still require you to get a kill to proc them which means if it isn't strong enough to get the kill then those are effectively useless.

also not all of the weapons are truly capable of endurance runs, examples being the basmu, paracyst, keratinos, nagantaka, boltor, soma, and the list could go on.

Edited by (XBOX)Harbinger XK5
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I think it's gonna be my first post actually without any criticism against developers. Guys, have you been digging into WF mechanics? I mean literally checking formulas, multi layering damage instances, status effect stacking, how criticals work etc etc? No? It's complicated, really. Never expected game looking like a simple shooter having such an advanced combat mechanic. It is not possible to explain that in the game tutorial. Go and check WF wiki category mechanic - it's HUGE. I don't see any point to copy - paste wiki content since it's already available for everybody.

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14 hours ago, (XBOX)Harbinger XK5 said:

...

some of the real issues which are:

.1 Enemy armor scaling

.2 Lack of a truly descriptive tutorial.

.3 The sheer lack of weapons capable of extremely high level content.

...

 

These are not real issues. 

Enemies should be tougher

Long and elaborate tutorials are often tiring for players and have a countereffect

There is a sheer lack of weapons NOT capable of extremely high level content. 

You simply don't know what you're talking about. 

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12 minutes ago, Proscriptor said:

These are not real issues. 

Enemies should be tougher

Long and elaborate tutorials are often tiring for players and have a countereffect

There is a sheer lack of weapons NOT capable of extremely high level content. 

You simply don't know what you're talking about. 

the game does not mention anything about how to upgrade mods what polarities are, it drives people away from the game. it drops you off not knowing what to do after you kill captain vor.

 

Edited by (XBOX)Harbinger XK5
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34 minutes ago, Proscriptor said:

Enemies should be tougher

Sure enemies should be tougher but not to the extent where you're wailing on them for 30 seconds while 15 other enemies are swarming you from behind. granted if you use the "META" you don't always have that issue but people like myself don't want to be forced into using the meta I play the game for fun and using the same few weapons until they get nerfed is both draining and boring.

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\

27 minutes ago, (XBOX)Harbinger XK5 said:

There is a sheer lack of weapons NOT capable of extremely high level content. 

You simply don't know what you're talking about. 

There is no point in having interesting and fun weapons if they cap out before you reach high level content, if anyone doesn't know what they're talking about it's you come back to me with that statement when you've put 5000 hours into this game and then we can talk about who knows more.

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3 hours ago, (XBOX)Harbinger XK5 said:

i don't consider anything under level 1000 to be engame

While I agree with what you said in your original post I think this is a hugely problematic statement. DE have said time and time again that the game is not (and will not) be balanced around ridiculous endurance gameplay. The hardest content that is reasonably part of DE's scope is likely one hour of endurance and lower. So if enemies are scaling to 1000 in that hour sure I am with you, but if you're talking 2-3 hours of endurance then yeah that's not part of the plan. Once you go beyond the expectation of the developers you're entering into obvious "this is no longer balanced" territory. Things get expectedly wonky when going beyond the expectation of DE with regard to scaling. 

Having said that I think you're spot on with your original post.

16 hours ago, (XBOX)Harbinger XK5 said:

.1 Enemy armor scaling

.2 Lack of a truly descriptive tutorial.

.3 The sheer lack of weapons capable of extremely high level content.

.4 outrageously unrewarding drop pools

I agree with each of these issues.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Harbinger XK5 said:

There is no point in having interesting and fun weapons if they cap out before you reach high level content, if anyone doesn't know what they're talking about it's you come back to me with that statement when you've put 5000 hours into this game and then we can talk about who knows more.

Yeah... maybe its time you played a different game. I have mastered nearly everything in the game and I only have 1400 hours in mission time. You've got 3600 hours in over me and I have had to step away from playing Warframe because there is absolutely no challenge in anything anymore. ZZZing everything is really boring, and playing to get more junk (mods, plat etc.) is pretty pointless IMO. You're playing ridiculous endurance missions because nothing else is challenging, right? Just put Warframe down a bit more and play/do something else for awhile. 

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16 hours ago, iPathos said:

They have made efforts to improve on this in the last year or so, but that's not to say they could do a whole lot more. Honestly I find it baffling why they haven't simply integrated the wiki and offered better details to them in exchange, so as to better player knowledge and accessibility to said knowledge.

Sometimes I don’t even use the wiki because some information is either inaccurate or ism’t explained well.  (Rift surge is a good example).

5 hours ago, Leqesai said:

While I agree with what you said in your original post I think this is a hugely problematic statement. DE have said time and time again that the game is not (and will not) be balanced around ridiculous endurance gameplay. The hardest content that is reasonably part of DE's scope is likely one hour of endurance and lower. So if enemies are scaling to 1000 in that hour sure I am with you, but if you're talking 2-3 hours of endurance then yeah that's not part of the plan. Once you go beyond the expectation of the developers you're entering into obvious "this is no longer balanced" territory. Things get expectedly wonky when going beyond the expectation of DE with regard to scaling. 

Having said that I think you're spot on with your original post.

I agree with each of these issues.

Yeah... maybe its time you played a different game. I have mastered nearly everything in the game and I only have 1400 hours in mission time. You've got 3600 hours in over me and I have had to step away from playing Warframe because there is absolutely no challenge in anything anymore. ZZZing everything is really boring, and playing to get more junk (mods, plat etc.) is pretty pointless IMO. You're playing ridiculous endurance missions because nothing else is challenging, right? Just put Warframe down a bit more and play/do something else for awhile. 

Just farm nidus prime if you want to do something, get another prime frame. Don’t like it? Sell it for platinum. Buy something with that platinum. 
 

7 hours ago, (XBOX)Harbinger XK5 said:

the game does not mention anything about how to upgrade mods what polarities are, it drives people away from the game. it drops you off not knowing what to do after you kill captain vor.

 

Yep. After I killed vor I was like

 

”So… now what do I do?”

”Er… what’s hydron?”

”Is there any tutorials anywhere? “
 

”How do I get more gunz?”

Was lost for a really long time and spent a month running Defense missions in earth and Mars. Once I got a good explanation then I actually progressed through the game.

7 hours ago, Proscriptor said:

These are not real issues. 

Enemies should be tougher

Long and elaborate tutorials are often tiring for players and have a countereffect

There is a sheer lack of weapons NOT capable of extremely high level content. 

You simply don't know what you're talking about. 

Just wow.

”Enemies should be tougher” not. When I enter SP with my 1 shot kill guns I’m always vastly outgunned or too vulnerable when I am sitting in a spot firing 200 fuel at 1 guy. 1 shot killing sp is ridiculous but throwing a whole mag at them with barely and change gets tiring after a while. 
 

I wish I had long and detailed tutorials so I didn’t spend 1 month running spear over and over again.

I wish I had long and detailed tutorials so I didn’t end up wasting all my forma on a regular Excalibur.

I wish I had long and detailed tutorials so I had an idea of how to ply the game and what on earth to do next without just sitting in my orbiter searching up “HOW TO PLAY WARFRAME”.

Galvanised mods make all weapons powerful, however it’s useless if you can’t kill anything. Like, try put galvanised and damage mods on the Braton, and your about as weak as a ant.

Take a Grakata, slap those same mods on it, you’ll barely do anything. (But Idgas about that because Grakatas rule)

Personally, I think there’s less than 15 weapons that can handle steel path with extreme efficiency with the least effort.

 

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6 hours ago, Leqesai said:

While I agree with what you said in your original post I think this is a hugely problematic statement. DE have said time and time again that the game is not (and will not) be balanced around ridiculous endurance gameplay. The hardest content that is reasonably part of DE's scope is likely one hour of endurance and lower. So if enemies are scaling to 1000 in that hour sure I am with you, but if you're talking 2-3 hours of endurance then yeah that's not part of the plan. Once you go beyond the expectation of the developers you're entering into obvious "this is no longer balanced" territory. Things get expectedly wonky when going beyond the expectation of DE with regard to scaling. 

Having said that I think you're spot on with your original post.

I agree with each of these issues.

Yeah... maybe its time you played a different game. I have mastered nearly everything in the game and I only have 1400 hours in mission time. You've got 3600 hours in over me and I have had to step away from playing Warframe because there is absolutely no challenge in anything anymore. ZZZing everything is really boring, and playing to get more junk (mods, plat etc.) is pretty pointless IMO. You're playing ridiculous endurance missions because nothing else is challenging, right? Just put Warframe down a bit more and play/do something else for awhile. 

there aren't any other games that i actually enjoy no other games let me constantly slaughter hordes of enemies like Warframe. also i really care about this game and i want to progress past the stagnant point it is in. I don't want to just stop playing because it's boring i want to help it grow so it isn't boring anymore for people. having long endurance runs is just a part of variety the game should have.

Edited by (XBOX)Harbinger XK5
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9 minutes ago, (XBOX)Harbinger XK5 said:

there aren't any other games that i actually enjoy no other games let me constantly slaughter hordes of enemies like warframe

I've found some of the Warriors games (dynasty warriors, dragon quest warriors etc.) to scratch that itch a bit. They're not the same but they certainly are not bad. Personally Hyrule Warriors was a great fun game with tons and tons to do.

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8 hours ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

Sometimes I don’t even use the wiki because some information is either inaccurate or ism’t explained well.  (Rift surge is a good example).

Then work on correcting things you know to be wrong, or else mention it so others can focus on it? The whole idea of the wiki is that it's the culmination of the community's knowledge, not helping is actively choosing to ignore the issue. (The vast majority of its information is entirely accurate, usually to a far greater degree than DE even thinks to mention ingame. If Rift Surge's article is wrong, do something about it.)

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14 hours ago, (XBOX)Harbinger XK5 said:

You're playing ridiculous endurance missions because nothing else is challenging, right?

Not exactly I do as you say "Ridiculous endurance runs" because of the flow of the combat and by no means do I find it boring. Personally two to three hour runs is mediocre, but if they would balance all the weapons to have potential to somewhere around there, the game would be a lot less boring variety of weapons is what is truly lacking in my opinion. I don't really care if it's challenging or not so long as I can blend and rip through hordes of enemies with little to no effort. 

Edited by (XBOX)Harbinger XK5
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16 hours ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

”Enemies should be tougher” not. When I enter SP with my 1 shot kill guns I’m always vastly outgunned or too vulnerable when I am sitting in a spot firing 200 fuel at 1 guy. 1 shot killing sp is ridiculous but throwing a whole mag at them with barely and change gets tiring after a while. 
 

I wish I had long and detailed tutorials so I didn’t spend 1 month running spear over and over again.

I wish I had long and detailed tutorials so I didn’t end up wasting all my forma on a regular Excalibur.

I wish I had long and detailed tutorials so I had an idea of how to ply the game and what on earth to do next without just sitting in my orbiter searching up “HOW TO PLAY WARFRAME”.

Galvanised mods make all weapons powerful, however it’s useless if you can’t kill anything. Like, try put galvanised and damage mods on the Braton, and your about as weak as a ant.

Take a Grakata, slap those same mods on it, you’ll barely do anything. (But Idgas about that because Grakatas rule)

Personally, I think there’s less than 15 weapons that can handle steel path with extreme efficiency with the least effort.

 

you just need to git gud, like the rest of us

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1 hour ago, Proscriptor said:

you just need to git gud, like the rest of us

oh really now if you were good you wouldn't be sitting here bashing on other people and actually contributing to the forums not that it really matters since i'm pretty sure you are just a forum troll anyways. if you don't have anything useful don't say anything at all you're just diluting the forum post.

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