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Looks like it's time to tone down slash and viral


TheArmchairThinker
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42 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Do you really need to jump into that conclusion? I'm not suggesting to remove CC, I'm suggesting to tone CC to not completely turn off enemies.

I jump to that conclusion because that is what you're implying! Crowd Control abilities are *designed to crowd control*. CC Frames like Vauban SURVIVE off them, because normally one or two stray bullets and they go splat. The entire POINT of crowd control is to turn off enemies. CC has been that way in nearly all multiplayer games where it is present.

 

What you're suggesting is changing everything that suspends in midair, to either just root or slow, letting the enemies still fire. So you want everything to basically be Gloom minus lifesteal? Wow, what diversity that is. Also, say goodbye then to passives like Vauban's, because his passive requires the enemy to be incapacitated to get the 25% damage buff. So I guess we'd have to throw passives like that out too, huh?

 

Let's just break frames like Limbo, Vauban, etc because they can "turn off" enemies. I suppose you want things like Loki/Ivara/Ash stealth removed too? After all that just "turns off" enemies too? Never mind that would kill the identity of those frames. Or Lull putting everyone to sleep? What about Silence stopping enemy fire? Shooting Gallery jamming enemy firearms? Guess we'll also have to redo *ALL THE AUGMENTS* that go along with all those CC abilities as well, since a good gigantic handful of them would be broken if the core mechanic of their associated abilities were removed. 

 

All I'm getting from you through all of your threads, is you want homogenized generic third person shooter where we are all weak and are basically all playing the same "class". Because nerfing CC into the ground like that makes it pointless. People already don't even bother with CC on the base star chart other than maybe Excavation and Interception missions solo, and only use it on Steel Path *to control and survive*, a.k.a. not getting shot at because *those enemies can hit hard*. CC is survivability. Leave CC alone.

 

You know what, how about just leaving FUN alone. 

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1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Didn't you want challenge? If CC turns off enemies, no challenge will present and CC isn't just about turning off enemies. CC can mean partial disable, preventing enemies from overwhelming you while still able to fight back to make the fight not completely dead.

2 hours ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

But the reason limbo can stasis is to counter his squishiness. A few shots from steel path enemies will kill him quick, so he needs a way to COMPLETELY disable his enemies in order to counteract his squishiness.

Terrify is used to redirect enemies from all allies. They still move and you make them afraid from you. Again, Nekros had this ability because he’s also quite a squishy frame.

Same for Shadows. Shadows is more of a CC than a damage ability but it can still do both, this is to divert the enemies’ attention.

 

Bro if you remove this part of some CC abilities your basically removing the frame.

 

Edited by (PSN)Reaper330011
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1 hour ago, x570Belmont said:

jump to that conclusion because that is what you're implying! Crowd Control abilities are *designed to crowd control*. CC Frames like Vauban SURVIVE off them, because normally one or two stray bullets and they go splat. The entire POINT of crowd control is to turn off enemies. CC has been that way in nearly all multiplayer games where it is present.

 

This!

 

1 hour ago, x570Belmont said:

What you're suggesting is changing everything that suspends in midair, to either just root or slow, letting the enemies still fire. So you want everything to basically be Gloom minus lifesteal? Wow, what diversity that is. Also, say goodbye then to passives like Vauban's, because his passive requires the enemy to be incapacitated to get the 25% damage buff. So I guess we'd have to throw passives like that out too, huh?

Exactly! Any crowd control ability without a unique affect is the same as a gloom without any life steal.

 

1 hour ago, x570Belmont said:

Let's just break frames like Limbo, Vauban, etc because they can "turn off" enemies. I suppose you want things like Loki/Ivara/Ash stealth removed too? After all that just "turns off" enemies too? Never mind that would kill the identity of those frames. Or Lull putting everyone to sleep? What about Silence stopping enemy fire? Shooting Gallery jamming enemy firearms? Guess we'll also have to redo *ALL THE AUGMENTS* that go along with all those CC abilities as well, since a good gigantic handful of them would be broken if the core mechanic of their associated abilities were removed. 

@TheArmchairThinker your literally ignoring the reason here.

 

Right so before you start suggesting

“let’s remove the point of cc while not removing cc”

think about how it affects the entire game.

Countless frames will be reduced to nothing if you remove CC, countless augments will have to be reworked, etc. 
 

if DE goes through with what you are saying, the unique affects of so many of the most fun abilities will be removed and the fun goes away.

Belmont here has already pointed out the consequences of your suggestion(s).

 

Just think about this before you type another wall of suggestions that ruin the fun for people in this game.

1 hour ago, x570Belmont said:

All I'm getting from you through all of your threads, is you want homogenized generic third person shooter where we are all weak and are basically all playing the same "class". Because nerfing CC into the ground like that makes it pointless. People already don't even bother with CC on the base star chart other than maybe Excavation and Interception missions solo, and only use it on Steel Path *to control and survive*, a.k.a. not getting shot at because *those enemies can hit hard*. CC is survivability. Leave CC alone.

 

You know what, how about just leaving FUN alone. 

I could not possibly agree more.

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10 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

But it doesn't address how you give those without armor strip or damage buff bigger importance since those without may be able to fight more comfortably but not needed in a team where chroma can just blast them away with 8x damage from Vex Armor, making CC and support have little to no importance. If DE removes true damage from bleed, that means those with armor strip or CC will be needed to keep the pressure from DPS and healer will be important to keep the team alive, making it similar to eidolon where DPS and support need to work together, not just going full DPS and ignore other roles or abilities

I could have used a lvl 200 Heavy Gunner instead of a lvl 120. The EHP of a lvl 200 Heavy Gunner is about 20 times more. Taking down that enemy with only the weapons I sued would take longer and at a point (even lvl 200) additional damage multipliers would be required either via player buffs, or enemy debuffs. CC becomes more valuable when enemies can't be nuked, so at least we'd get to a point where some teamplay will be more needed.

The thing is, only increasing enemy durability is not going going to greatly increase the need for certain classes, like healers, at lategame or endgame. Healers falling off towards lategame is only one of several symptoms resulting from an overreaching problem: Improper balance at lategame, with regards to several mechanics. Identify the problems that cause the symptom, address them and the symptom(s) will diminish. In the case of healers becoming valued at lategame, more than one problem will need to be addressed.

I can tell you what I believe the problems are that need to be addressed, but before I veer off topic like that, I'd like to know: Are you at endgame? What is the highest level SP Grineer enemy you faced? What did you use and how did you survive? Those answers may identify some of the problems for you.

Edit: I wouldn't discount the merit of a suggestion based only on how far a player has progressed - An MR8 could have a better understanding of mechanics than an MR30. I'm simply curious and I am trying to get a better understanding of what experience your point of view and suggestions are based on.

Edited by Silligoose
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2 hours ago, Silligoose said:

can tell you what I believe the problems are that need to be addressed, but before I veer off topic like that, I'd like to know: Are you at endgame? What is the highest level SP Grineer enemy you faced? What did you use and how did you survive? Those answers may identify some of the problems for you.

I’m also curious to know. The very cap I’ve faced is about…. 300-400 level corrupted enemies. Shredded them with the help of Harrow and a very good Ignis wraith. Wonder what this guy’s faced. 

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2 hours ago, Silligoose said:

CC becomes more valuable when enemies can't be nuked, so at least we'd get to a point where some teamplay will be more needed.

When I was a newbie and raw damage was too weak (at my stage) for the enemies I was fighting I had to rely on all my cc abilities to survive. It really works well. Terrify and shadows saved my life more times then any being can physically count. Crowd control rules.

 

2 hours ago, Silligoose said:

The thing is, only increasing enemy durability is not going going to greatly increase the need for certain classes, like healers, at lategame or endgame. Healers falling off towards lategame is only one of several symptoms resulting from an overreaching problem: Improper balance at lategame, with regards to several mechanics. Identify the problems that cause the symptom, address them and the symptom(s) will diminish. In the case of healers becoming valued at lategame, more than one problem will need to be addressed.

^ to simplify, address the problem and the symptoms will go away exactly like what this guy has said so many times already. nerfing viral/slash will only be dealing with a symptom of a problem…

I start thinking about covid after seeing/saying the word symptom so many times…

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There’s a weird sense of repeat deja vu going on here.

I’m mildly curious as to why @TheArmchairThinker would argue for nerfs when they’ve made clear their position of enjoying the power that they wield. Armchair seemed pretty happy with their lot, but it almost seems like there’s some sort of confusion on what some players actually want or are referring to (or maybe I’m the one misunderstanding something).

Will need additional information

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
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52 minutes ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

When I was a newbie and raw damage was too weak (at my stage) for the enemies I was fighting I had to rely on all my cc abilities to survive. It really works well. Terrify and shadows saved my life more times then any being can physically count. Crowd control rules.

 

Same here. Even now, despite being at endgame and being able to trivialize content with raw damage, I often don't (I find it boring). Instead of powerleveling new gear, I just use them on missions I decide to do for NW, sorties, Steel Path Incursions etc, making cc quite valuable, even cc from elemental damage sees use at times.

1 hour ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

I’m also curious to know. The very cap I’ve faced is about…. 300-400 level corrupted enemies. Shredded them with the help of Harrow and a very good Ignis wraith. Wonder what this guy’s faced. 

1 hour ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

^ to simplify, address the problem and the symptoms will go away exactly like what this guy has said so many times already. nerfing viral/slash will only be dealing with a symptom of a problem…

I start thinking about covid after seeing/saying the word symptom so many times…

Honestly I get the impression the OP is either not very deep into lategame or at endgame, or he might be, but did so using builds that worked well for him, without really appreciating why they did. 

I'm probably going to keep using that phrasology until something better comes along, because it seems to differentiate between the two subjects quite well. Funnily enough,  when using that phraseology thought of Covid hadn't crossed my mind. It may now... lol

I'll edit this in my previous reply, because it is more for the OP: I wouldn't discount the merit of a suggestion based on how far the OP has progressed - An MR8 could have a better understanding of mechanics than an MR30. I'm simply curious and I am trying to get a better understanding of the OP's point of view.

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12 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Same here. Even now, despite being at endgame and being able to trivialize content with raw damage, I often don't (I find it boring). Instead of powerleveling new gear, I just use them on missions I decide to do for NW, sorties, Steel Path Incursions etc, making cc quite valuable, even cc from elemental damage sees use at times.

Honestly I get the impression the OP is either not very deep into lategame or at endgame, or he might be, but did so using builds that worked well for him, without really appreciating why they did. 

I'm probably going to keep using that phrasology until something better comes along, because it seems to differentiate between the two subjects quite well. Funnily enough,  when using that phraseology thought of Covid hadn't crossed my mind. It may now... lol

I'll edit this in my previous reply, because it is more for the OP: I wouldn't discount the merit of a suggestion based on how far the OP has progressed - An MR8 could have a better understanding of mechanics than an MR30. I'm simply curious and I am trying to get a better understanding of the OP's point of view.

Understand his point of view would probably make things easier.

 

25 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

There’s a weird sense of repeat deja vu going on here.

I’m mildly curious as to why @TheArmchairThinker would argue for nerfs when they’ve made clear their position of enjoying the power that they wield. Armchair seemed pretty happy with their lot, but it almost seems like there’s some sort of confusion on what some players actually want or are referring to (or maybe I’m the one misunderstanding something).

Will need additional information

Now that you’ve pointed it out, yeah…

He was always saying 

“I find it fun to being a god that kills everything and being brain dead the whole game! So does a lot of people” but… then he ist dying to encourage nerfs.

14 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Same here. Even now, despite being at endgame and being able to trivialize content with raw damage, I often don't (I find it boring). Instead of powerleveling new gear, I just use them on missions I decide to do for NW, sorties, Steel Path Incursions etc, making cc quite valuable, even cc from elemental damage sees use at times

CC is extremely valuable. It can save your life so many times. It’s always valuable and needed in endgame.

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🤔 Y’know, I’m wondering if it might be worth, instead of asking how far one gets in Steel Path, maybe it’s worth asking how easy Warframe is to a player.

If someone’s only ever played Easyframe for aaaages, I would expect that suggestions about balance changes would be suspect. And if someone’s only been living in Steel Path, that would be suspect as well (I am still under the impression that they’re not balancing for SP, because certain cheese tactics or exploits are necessary at times)

Changes to core game mechanics like Warframe abilities and resistances and elemental effects will stretch beyond the highest level we can attain. New players will be exposed to said changes very quickly; is a change based on a perspective of overpowering everything going to work so well for those who aren’t overpowering everything?

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2 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Changes to core game mechanics like Warframe abilities and resistances and elemental effects will stretch beyond the highest level we can attain. New players will be exposed to said changes very quickly; is a change based on a perspective of overpowering everything going to work so well for those who aren’t overpowering everything?

Exactly why I mentioned before that, since DE balances around the base start chart, nuking us into oblivion is going to turn new players off entirely. The drop rates are already low, it takes newer players awhile to get used to the grinding required. Throw challenging/tough missions in their way every step of the way and the time investment vs reward factor basically will drive them all away.

 

That was why I was more in favor of DE taking a look at Steel Path, or any content above level 100, and reworking things like AI and enemy variety/abilities there. That way the base star chart is left alone, but a 'difficulty' factor can be placed into the 'hard mode' for those looking for a challenge.

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17 minutes ago, x570Belmont said:

Throw challenging/tough missions in their way every step of the way and the time investment vs reward factor basically will drive them all away.

This feels weirdly counter-intuitive. I was under the impression players started Warframe because they were looking for a third-person shooter? Usually those have some kind of challenge or fight; just because they can turn off the fight and focus on the grind, is that matching the reason they first started playing for?

edit: Not to mention there are already players who got bored before they even get far. I'm making a guess that it's because the things they had to do, like fighting through level 15 missions and bounties for rewards they don't have, didn't hold any semblance of what they were looking for if they're taking overpowered equipment to make the fight easy.

double edit: Even some veterans lament the loss of the new player experience, where one had to fight through and actually do well in a mission, before the game forced them into being overpowered to chase the grind

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
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On 2021-10-02 at 1:58 PM, x570Belmont said:

That was why I was more in favor of DE taking a look at Steel Path, or any content above level 100, and reworking things like AI and enemy variety/abilities there. That way the base star chart is left alone, but a 'difficulty' factor can be placed into the 'hard mode' for those looking for a challenge

I agree. For example your squad can vote on the difficulty and do “Extreme” mode. At that mode this happens:

New enemies will spawn, much harder to fight and are specially trained to eliminate Tenno.

Enemies with a wide range of coordination and synergy with the other enemies, as well as a large variety of abilities. 
 

Panels around the map which when activated by a enemy, will call enemy reinforcements (Optional: Tenno can hack it too if they want a fight). 
 

(Leave arbitration’s alone though, but take a look at steel path). Continuing.

Unpredictable attacks coming from the enemy.

Etc.

But the origin system should be left alone because the reward already isn’t too worth it but even when I was a newbie if I was hit by nukes I would’ve deleted the game immediately. 

On 2021-10-02 at 2:05 PM, (NSW)Greybones said:

This feels weirdly counter-intuitive. I was under the impression players started Warframe because they were looking for a third-person shooter? Usually those have some kind of challenge or fight; just because they can turn off the fight and focus on the grind, is that matching the reason they first started playing for?

edit: Not to mention there are already players who got bored before they even get far. I'm making a guess that it's because the things they had to do, like fighting through level 15 missions and bounties for rewards they don't have, didn't hold any semblance of what they were looking for if they're taking overpowered equipment to make the fight easy.

double edit: Even some veterans lament the loss of the new player experience, where one had to fight through

Or just add a difficulty filter to the origin system as well. More difficulty, but doesn’t have the steel path bonuses. 

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7 minutes ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

Or just add a difficulty filter to the origin system as well. More difficulty, but doesn’t have the steel path bonuses. 

 

You know what I'm starting to think?

I'm starting to think some players have used those loadout slots to make different builds, then get locked into those builds, and then it turns out that while the build is great for grinding, it's not always the solution to boredom.

I'm starting to think that players don't know how to build for a fight, only how to overpower one.

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
removal of question
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2 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

You know what I'm starting to think?

I'm starting to think some players have used those loadout slots to make different builds, then get locked into those builds, and then it turns out that while the build is great for grinding, it's not always the solution to boredom.

I'm starting to think that players don't know how to build for a fight, only how to overpower one.

Why else would a player want to limit most of their build options to engage in a difficulty option that basically puts them on the same level as if they didn't have all the stat increases?

The first part is true, I’ve experienced it myself. 
 

The second part is also true. All the builds I’ve seen were just about 1 shooting 20 enemies and repeat. Also could you elaborate what you mean by “build for a fight” though?

I did not understand the last part that well.

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5 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

 

You know what I'm starting to think?

I'm starting to think some players have used those loadout slots to make different builds, then get locked into those builds, and then it turns out that while the build is great for grinding, it's not always the solution to boredom.

I'm starting to think that players don't know how to build for a fight, only how to overpower one.

Alright ignore my previous message since you edited.

What do you mean by build for a fight?

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6 minutes ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

Alright ignore my previous message since you edited.

What do you mean by build for a fight?

Seems like basically the same thing was said across both posts, but okay.

Building for a fight means, well, building for a fight. You know how you usually overpower everything and it's easy? The opposite of that.

It's where, instead of "How can I make this easy", it's "How far can I get with what I brought".

It's where when you take a build, an actual fight happens. It happens in SP, but that's because players only know how to equip the most overpowered combinations, so SP is like "Nah, that's not gonna cut it here unless it's really overpowered"

🤔 It's where someone succeeds with the minimum required

edit: Hm. Now I'm mulling over additional ways to define it in case this wasn't sufficient

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
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1 minute ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Seems like basically the same thing was said across both posts, but okay.

Building for a fight means, well, building for a fight. You know how you usually overpower everything and it's easy? The opposite of that.

It's where, instead of "How can I make this easy", it's "How far can I get with what I brought".

It's where when you take a build, an actual fight happens. It happens in SP, but that's because players only know how to equip the most overpowered combinations, so SP is like "Nah, that's not gonna cut it here unless it's really overpowered"

🤔 It's where someone succeeds with the minimum required

Ahh I see now.

yeah most players just know how to go all out and just make do with that level of overpowering, that’s why most players do ridiculous endurance runs for fun, and it actually works.

The fun in this game is when the screen shake comes in and it gets intense.

If you go to a mission with the minimum required power then it will get intense at first. However bringing your most overpowered gear requires you to stay on the mission for a few hours before things get difficult. 

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9 minutes ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

Ahh I see now.

yeah most players just know how to go all out and just make do with that level of overpowering, that’s why most players do ridiculous endurance runs for fun, and it actually works.

The fun in this game is when the screen shake comes in and it gets intense.

If you go to a mission with the minimum required power then it will get intense at first. However bringing your most overpowered gear requires you to stay on the mission for a few hours before things get difficult. 

Pretty much. That's partly why Steel Path was implemented, because before SP, players were going to the highest-level endurance (I'm pretty sure it was Mot) and then staying in there for hours, and then complaining they had to stay in there for hours before they weren't bored.

So SP was brought out to give players who insisted on their overpowered builds being just powerful enough a way that they don't have to wait hours before reaching that point. Considering the sort of broken nature of SP, it's doing its job, but it doesn't seem like we're supposed to live in the damn thing when the rest of the game is outside of it even after it gets unlocked

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
added a few missing words
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2 minutes ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

I think it was.

I would clarify that it's "Minimum power". I'm not expecting someone to go completely modless when there's all these neat mods that alter how our equipment works, but once that threshold of "Enough health and enough damage" is reached to make a mission into an actual fight, that's the level of power, and the rest is player choice

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
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5 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Pretty much. That's partly why Steel Path was implemented, because before SP, players were going to the highest-level endurance (I'm pretty sure it was Mot) and then staying in there for hours, and then complaining they had to stay in there for hours before they weren't bored.

So SP was brought out to give players who insisted on their overpowered builds being just powerful enough that they don't have to wait hours before reaching that point. Considering the sort of broken nature of SP, it's doing its job, but it doesn't seem like we're supposed to live in the damn thing when the rest of the game is outside of it even after it gets unlocked

I only touch origin system for helping players and hydron. I just shut myself away from origin and went to steel path. 
The problem is

 

1. Without overpowered gear you will die eventually if you are going to do a run that lasts several hours.

2. With overpowered gear even in steel path it’ll take at the very least 30 minutes for things to get intense.

I don’t think a minimum is the answer. We need something that’s not too weak that it’s a last resort choice for the required content, but not something too overpowered that it’ll take an hour to not feel bored.

7 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I would clarify that it's "Minimum power". I'm not expecting someone to go completely modless when there's all these neat mods that alter how our equipment works, but once that threshold of "Enough health and enough damage" is reached to make a mission into an actual fight, that's the level of power, and the rest is player choice

I agree but the only problem is if your doing a long run you’ll be outgunned and they will eventually shred you, so like I said before we need a middle weapon.

The other option is just bring any weapon and use Harrow, he’ll do the job for you.

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4 minutes ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

I don’t think a minimum is the answer. We need something that’s not too weak that it’s a last resort choice for the required content, but not something too overpowered that it’ll take an hour to not feel bored.

What's wrong with building for that middleground? We have all the pieces; if you want to build for an endurance run, you're going to need to build for an endurance run. If you're not interested in an endurance run, don't build for an endurance run.

What is the appeal of the endurance run? I've always thought it was to test a build, and a tested build will either do insanely well or will just barely pass or will fail

edit: Most missions sort of run out of reason to continue after the last rotation

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
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Just a mild note: I feel like I have a bad habit of coming across more aggressively then I intended , @(PSN)Reaper330011. Sorry about that if it feels that way; I’m really not sure why dying without overpowered equipment in an endurance run isn’t anything more than simply the nature of an endless mission scaling up enemy levels until a player needs to duck out because the fight gets too hard.

I’ve seen players who seem to think an “endless mission” is just a mission that they can keep playing until they want to leave, but if that was the case, I wouldn’t expect it to get harder as it progresses

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47 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

What's wrong with building for that middleground? We have all the pieces; if you want to build for an endurance run, you're going to need to build for an endurance run. If you're not interested in an endurance run, don't build for an endurance run.

And? I didn’t entirely disagree with you.

80% of this game involves killing hence the reason most people create builds for killing.


 

50 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

What is the appeal of the endurance run? I've always thought it was to test a build, and a tested build will either do insanely well or will just barely pass or will fail

It WAS to test a build. Now we just do it because it’s the only fun thing to do in warframe. 

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