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Looks like it's time to tone down slash and viral


TheArmchairThinker
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On 2021-09-12 at 8:28 PM, ARM0R3D_WARFRAME said:

No offense here, but no matter how much you change the stats of some weapons... there will always be those who find ways around it ...  Please stop suggesting that this or that get nerfed.  I've been trying to get into the Steel Path for a week now and its actually not fun trying to fight a bunch of bullet sacks.  I keep seeing how people are getting nothing but Red Crits on almost every weapon they use and I'm here like wow I cant get more than 50%... why? because they nerfed the Crit stacking.. (well at least for someone like me who is a casual player.... I'm a Dad first, gamer 2nd).  Finding a Balance is hard I will agree, however dont make it worse for those of us who are not "Die Hards" 

Unfortunately, casual gamers like yourself aren't a good reason for the developers to ignore game balance. If the game becomes too easy, people will grow bored of it and quit playing. The solution is to nerf what makes it easy, because the other option is to buff enemies which in turn hurts casual gamers. I play Path of Exile, a game that's done the latter, and unless you know how to make mountains of currency in very short amounts of time, you'll never beat the endgame because of how strong the enemies are. I'd rather not see Warframe become another PoE, and I'm saying this while maining Revenant, one of the few frames in the game that can scale infinitely in power and defense.

I'd recommend visiting weapon build sites and look up builds for your favorite guns in order to get an idea how some people manage to reach red crits.

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7 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

If the game becomes too easy, people will grow bored of it and quit playing.

I disagree with this statement....

Yes players will definitely quit once they get bored but the part that I disagree with is that Easy Gameplay leads to Boredom...

7 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

The solution is to nerf what makes it easy, because the other option is to buff enemies which in turn hurts casual gamers. I

I think it's better to Nerf anything that makes it Brain Dead.... Because that's what leads to Boredom.... You can still be Thoroughly Stimulated in an Easy Game...

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1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

Yes players will definitely quit once they get bored but the part that I disagree with is that Easy Gameplay leads to Boredom...

If there is nothing to challenge you, there is nothing to keep you engaged with the game. This results in the game becoming boring because you realize that the game is breaking down into the same slog of grinding missions. The challenge of struggling not to die or fail the mission helps keep you distracted from finding that pattern of grind.

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

I think it's better to Nerf anything that makes it Brain Dead.... Because that's what leads to Boredom.... You can still be Thoroughly Stimulated in an Easy Game...

Then the game has a lot of nerfing to do, because there's plenty of ways to let you play the game braindead. Invulnerable tank frames like Revenant and Rhino, press-4-to-win nuke frames like Saryn and Mesa who just need to press one button to mow down entire rooms of enemies, melee being grossly overtuned to the point that mashing its button is all you need to do, just to name a few outliers.

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15 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

If there is nothing to challenge you, there is nothing to keep you engaged with the game.

Depends on the game... And the player... 

 

17 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

This results in the game becoming boring because you realize that the game is breaking down into the same slog of grinding missions. 

Well there you go... The boredom isn't from the lack of challenge.... It's from the lack of Variety...  Wouldn't you agree ? 😁

19 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

The challenge of struggling not to die or fail the mission helps keep you distracted from finding that pattern of grind.

LoL.... This describes my experience with Dark Souls perfectly....

I really hated my time with those games.... I felt like the constant dying was getting in the way of me being able to enjoy.... So I watched a bunch of YouTube videos on how to make things much easier....and it worked.... Once I had all the right Goodies the game became much easier.... And thus it was extremely Boring. 

And normally that would be the end of the story but without Going into details... I now know that there's more that goes into what makes a game enjoyable.... And Challenge isn't even a large part of it.... But.... Like I said... It depends on the Game and The Player....

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1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

I disagree with this statement....

Yes players will definitely quit once they get bored but the part that I disagree with is that Easy Gameplay leads to Boredom...

I think it's better to Nerf anything that makes it Brain Dead.... Because that's what leads to Boredom.... You can still be Thoroughly Stimulated in an Easy Game...

You are right and not right. 
 

The most fun I’ve had in warframe is when I was in a intense railjack mission. What we need is a 70% intense 30% easy (too specific?), because if it’s too hard, then your just sweating and slamming every button to try stay alive (experienced it when a shadow stalker came in when I had really weak gear, I nearly broke my remote). If it’s too easy, you are brain dead the whole time and you could eat, watch YouTube and do an exam while playing the game. Brain dead isn’t fun, swearing at max volume and slamming every button ALSO isn’t fun. We need intense in a good way, a intense where you can play with friends, synergise with them find struggle but in a fun way (An example is having a really epic fight with a assassin or boss, basically having a match but one that’s not TOO overpowered nor underpowered). 
 

Without anything challenging, like that guy said, the game is brain dead, so that’s why we need a equal match/enemy.

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7 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Depends on the game... And the player... 

 

Well there you go... The boredom isn't from the lack of challenge.... It's from the lack of Variety...  Wouldn't you agree ? 😁

LoL.... This describes my experience with Dark Souls perfectly....

I really hated my time with those games.... I felt like the constant dying was getting in the way of me being able to enjoy.... So I watched a bunch of YouTube videos on how to make things much easier....and it worked.... Once I had all the right Goodies the game became much easier.... And thus it was extremely Boring. 

And normally that would be the end of the story but without Going into details... I now know that there's more that goes into what makes a game enjoyable.... And Challenge isn't even a large part of it.... But.... Like I said... It depends on the Game and The Player....

We have a large variety of missions (more would be cool though) but it’s just the same thing because they are (mostly) underpowered. Hold fire button. Run around the room.  Use abilities. Repeat. It’s still lack of challenge (at least for me) but yes, more variety would make it better.  It depends on how you play that’s right but what we basically need is this:

If you stand still, you’ll die. If you put no effort in and become brain dead, YOU’LL DIE.

If you perform maneuvers, you’ll live. If you think of strategy and think “how should I do this” you’ll live. If you put in gaming effort, you’ll live. 

Right now we just need to hit buttons and do not need to think, which is what makes it brain dead. 

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Just now, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

We have a large variety of missions (more would be cool though) but it’s just the same thing because they are (mostly) underpowered. Hold fire button. Run around the room.  Use abilities. Repeat. It’s still lack of challenge (at least for me) but yes, more variety would make it better.  It depends on how you play that’s right but what we basically need is this:

If you stand still, you’ll die. If you put no effort in and become brain dead, YOU’LL DIE.

If you perform maneuvers, you’ll live. If you think of strategy and think “how should I do this” you’ll live. If you put in gaming effort, you’ll live. 

Right now we just need to hit buttons and do not need to think, which is what makes it brain dead. 

A decent example of this is spectres. They scale to match the enemies’ level. If you command them to stay still and shoot, they’ll eventually take tons of damage and get outgunned and die. If they move and everything,  they’ll kill enemies, but not too fast and not too long. They scale to manage the enemy, in damage, level, durability, and ability efficiency (I mean how well they work, not energy cost).

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5 minutes ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

We have a large variety of missions (more would be cool though) but it’s just the same thing because they are (mostly) underpowered.

Well.... That's what DE should focus on fixing.... Among other things. 

I think the main problem is that... Like you said.... Too many (supposedly different) are too similar.... They require too much killing.... Which puts certain Warframe's in a bad position because not all of them are Maaters of Murder. DE's solution has been to create new frames and rework old frames to be better at Killing things. And I don't like this approach.... I think it would be better to have more missions that didn't have Killing as a Requirement...

 

And not just missions either.... Even things like Resource Gathering and Affinity Farming need Non-Violent Alternatives....

 

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29 minutes ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

You are right and not right. 
 

The most fun I’ve had in warframe is when I was in a intense railjack mission. What we need is a 70% intense 30% easy (too specific?), because if it’s too hard, then your just sweating and slamming every button to try stay alive (experienced it when a shadow stalker came in when I had really weak gear, I nearly broke my remote). If it’s too easy, you are brain dead the whole time and you could eat, watch YouTube and do an exam while playing the game. Brain dead isn’t fun, swearing at max volume and slamming every button ALSO isn’t fun. We need intense in a good way, a intense where you can play with friends, synergise with them find struggle but in a fun way (An example is having a really epic fight with a assassin or boss, basically having a match but one that’s not TOO overpowered nor underpowered). 
 

Without anything challenging, like that guy said, the game is brain dead, so that’s why we need a equal match/enemy.

Impossible. There is simply no way at all that Warframe can put the player at the level the player wants. No options, no choice for that, nothing. You either equip all of the power, or... well, actually that's the only option. DE has not been balancing for the collection we've amassed outside the missions, and that's what they need to do. They need to look at all of the equipment that we can get, and then give us an enemy that matches that combination of everything that we can earn, validating the efforts we as players have put towards playing the game and turning it off for most of our playtime as we grind.

We need DE to make the best of us fight like we've just started the game, but give us tougher enemies. That's the only solution.

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4 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Impossible. There is simply no way at all that Warframe can put the player at the level the player wants. No options, no choice for that, nothing. You either equip all of the power, or... well, actually that's the only option. DE has not been balancing for the collection we've amassed outside the missions, and that's what they need to do. They need to look at all of the equipment that we can get, and then give us an enemy that matches that combination of everything that we can earn, validating the efforts we as players have put towards playing the game and turning it off for most of our playtime as we grind.

We need DE to make the best of us fight like we've just started the game, but give us tougher enemies. That's the only solution.

Yeaaaaah.... But ..... Would that really make Warframe more fun for you ? 🤨

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Just now, Lutesque said:

Yeaaaaah.... But ..... Would that really make Warframe more fun for you ? 🤨

🤔 Gee, I dunno. Let me test by customizing my difficulty to match what I'm looking for and I'll get back to you.

Test done. Yeah, it was pretty fun. Not braindead. Ran out of ammo. Or was saved by my Lich. Or turned a losing fight around by mind controlling a Shield Drone.

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10 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Impossible. There is simply no way at all that Warframe can put the player at the level the player wants. No options, no choice for that, nothing. You either equip all of the power, or... well, actually that's the only option. DE has not been balancing for the collection we've amassed outside the missions, and that's what they need to do. They need to look at all of the equipment that we can get, and then give us an enemy that matches that combination of everything that we can earn, validating the efforts we as players have put towards playing the game and turning it off for most of our playtime as we grind.

We need DE to make the best of us fight like we've just started the game, but give us tougher enemies. That's the only solution.

One of the big things Warframe suffers from is the lack of traditional levels for players. There is no correlation between player power and levels. 

Players don't scale the same way enemies do, which leads to unbalanced encounters and squad compositions.

 

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1 minute ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

One of the big things Warframe suffers from is the lack of traditional levels for players. There is no correlation between player power and levels. 

Players don't scale the same way enemies do, which leads to unbalanced encounters and squad compositions.

 

Well shoot. I guess I'm stuck fighting weak ass enemies then because my search for more and more power was not met with an end goal of being a newly-hatched Tenno but with tougher enemies. That test that I've been doing for the last half a year? Invalidated. Nothing to it, just a bad idea. Time to stay bored while playing a videogame, since it's only logical

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23 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

🤔 Gee, I dunno. Let me test by customizing my difficulty to match what I'm looking for and I'll get back to you.

Test done. Yeah, it was pretty fun. Not braindead. Ran out of ammo. Or was saved by my Lich. Or turned a losing fight around by mind controlling a Shield Drone.

See... Now that's interesting.... I could argue that interaction was more fun not because of the Difficulty but because of the variety of ways you dealt with the situation..... Ofcourse that only happened because of the Difficulty being just right....

 

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10 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

See... Now that's interesting.... I could argue that interaction was more fun not because of the Difficulty but because of the variety of ways you dealt with the situation..... Ofcourse that only happened because of the Difficulty being just right....

 

Yus. There are so many times when the same mission plays out differently because of interactions that are allowed to breathe

edit: Some interactions I did not expect at all, like irradiating my Lich and then having all of his friends beat him down (or something? I’m pretty sure that’s what tore through his health). I was really struggling with that rank 4 before that point

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
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34 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

See... Now that's interesting.... I could argue that interaction was more fun not because of the Difficulty but because of the variety of ways you dealt with the situation..... Ofcourse that only happened because of the Difficulty being just right....

 

Well that's the thing. 

Games are built on interaction.

Power is good when it expands our options for interactivity, but it also runs the risk of depriving the enemy of interactivity. 

But the enemy not being able to interact is also the fastest way to farm.

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1 hour ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Impossible. There is simply no way at all that Warframe can put the player at the level the player wants. No options, no choice for that, nothing. You either equip all of the power, or... well, actually that's the only option. DE has not been balancing for the collection we've amassed outside the missions, and that's what they need to do. They need to look at all of the equipment that we can get, and then give us an enemy that matches that combination of everything that we can earn, validating the efforts we as players have put towards playing the game and turning it off for most of our playtime as we grind.

We need DE to make the best of us fight like we've just started the game, but give us tougher enemies. That's the only solution.

I don’t mean make the players able to change their level because we can handle level 300 at level 30 already, but many make the enemies scale according to the strength of the opponent? (For example, dauntless. The enemy scales in durability and armor according to who is fighting them and the number of people fighting them. Not like sentient adaptability, but in standard durability, maneuvers, and damage.)

 

2 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Well.... That's what DE should focus on fixing.... Among other things. 

I think the main problem is that... Like you said.... Too many (supposedly different) are too similar.... They require too much killing.... Which puts certain Warframe's in a bad position because not all of them are Maaters of Murder. DE's solution has been to create new frames and rework old frames to be better at Killing things. And I don't like this approach.... I think it would be better to have more missions that didn't have Killing as a Requirement...

 

And not just missions either.... Even things like Resource Gathering and Affinity Farming need Non-Violent Alternatives....

 

Exactly. We have mission alternatives (variety) but all have the same goal (or involvement): killing. 80% of every mission involves slaughter, and our weapons and warframes are nerfed/buffed (like you said) according to how well they kill, while some are not made for killing but for just helping out or crowd control. 
 

1 hour ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

🤔 Gee, I dunno. Let me test by customizing my difficulty to match what I'm looking for and I'll get back to you.

Test done. Yeah, it was pretty fun. Not braindead. Ran out of ammo. Or was saved by my Lich. Or turned a losing fight around by mind controlling a Shield Drone.

See?

 

1 hour ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

One of the big things Warframe suffers from is the lack of traditional levels for players. There is no correlation between player power and levels. 

Players don't scale the same way enemies do, which leads to unbalanced encounters and squad compositions.

 

This. 
 

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

See... Now that's interesting.... I could argue that interaction was more fun not because of the Difficulty but because of the variety of ways you dealt with the situation..... Ofcourse that only happened because of the Difficulty being just right....

 

And my point stands. A match and correct difficulty according to your strength opens up opportunities for different ways to deal with the problem/enemy(s), like I said before.

 

36 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Well that's the thing. 

Games are built on interaction.

Power is good when it expands our options for interactivity, but it also runs the risk of depriving the enemy of interactivity. 

But the enemy not being able to interact is also the fastest way to farm.

The last sentence is true, but that’s a bad thing. If a game is being brain dead and hitting 1 button then why even play the game? It removes the point of the game, and if you don’t need to think or use strategy then it limits our options for interactivity or opportunities to handle the situation, and because the way of completing the mission (in most cases) involves killing people, then it limits our opportunities even further. The enemies are predictable, and don’t have any challenge. (For example Monster Hunter, the enemies aren’t readable at all and can perform random move patterns in every fight so you can’t learn them).

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13 minutes ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

And my point stands. A match and correct difficulty according to your strength opens up opportunities for different ways to deal with the problem/enemy(s), like I said before.

Well kinda.... The game already has the variety... The problem is it just doesn't force you to use it...

It depends on the player.... Some people will try new approaches without needing the game to be harder to make them consider it...

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9 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Well kinda.... The game already has the variety... The problem is it just doesn't force you to use it...

It depends on the player.... Some people will try new approaches without needing the game to be harder to make them consider it...

The game has variety. But in every mission how do you get it done? Killing. In that way you could say there’s no variety at all.

 

 

9 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

😐 Yeah. Yeah, I see. If only they’d put additional resources into fixing this inability to have a good fight. Because it’s just not an acceptable option at the moment.

It’s be really cool if this was made so though.

Edited by (PSN)Reaper330011
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