Looks like it's time to tone down slash and viral

[TheArmchairThinker]

15 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

If there is nothing to challenge you, there is nothing to keep you engaged with the game. This results in the game becoming boring because you realize that the game is breaking down into the same slog of grinding missions. The challenge of struggling not to die or fail the mission helps keep you distracted from finding that pattern of grind.

Not everything must be a struggle to stay alive or fail the mission to keep you distracted. Nothing to challenge mean I can do what I find fun instead of stressing out from struggle of doing a mission. I can do dumb things like clearing exterminate with rider kick only or launching enemies all over the place for laughs to "distract myself from finding that pattern of grind"

[(NSW)Greybones]

4 minutes ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

I’m thinking it’s not…. if it was good you wouldn’t be deleted it…. 
 

 

🤔 Fair point. It must have been something bad then

[(PSN)Reaper330011]

14 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Not everything must be a struggle to stay alive or fail the mission to keep you distracted. Nothing to challenge mean I can do what I find fun instead of stressing out from struggle of doing a mission. I can do dumb things like clearing exterminate with rider kick only or launching enemies all over the place for laughs to "distract myself from finding that pattern of grind"

Still we need a bit of challenge or else we can just hit 1 button and be done with it.

[(PSN)Reaper330011]

12 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

🤔 Fair point. It must have been something bad then

Yep.

[TheArmchairThinker]

4 minutes ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

Still we need a bit of challenge or else we can just hit 1 button and be done with it.

And what is "challenge"? I find that the so called challenge is nothing more than putting enemies stronger than you to put pressure on you. We're already made as the strongest specimen in universe so what is challenge now?

[(PSN)Reaper330011]

14 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And what is "challenge"? I find that the so called challenge is nothing more than putting enemies stronger than you to put pressure on you. We're already made as the strongest specimen in universe so what is challenge now?

Challenge = Unpredictable moves. Ability to dodge certain attacks from us (instead of standing still). More abilities (like different types of grenades or deployable turrets that shred you easily). Enemies that have more options (like going back for several platoons of elite reinforcements or setting off a alarm that perma locks a door).

Challenge = More interactivity, more ways to deal with a situation, unpredictable enemies.

Challenge = MORE VARIETY.

 

Right now the solution we are using to everything is:

Increase the damage. Make it more durable. Make it stronger.

or

Decrease the damage. Make it squishy. Make it weaker. 
 

Like, when I imagine hellions with their jet packs they should be able to maneuver our shots instead of standing in the air. Maybe a unblockable move when they come down and hit you, slam you into a wall, leaving you motionless and staggered for 10 seconds with temporary armor strip. When I see elite lancers I see statues, what I expected was something ACTUALLY elite, specialized forces who can perform some amazing dodges, parries to melee attacks and team strikes. Maybe some abilities like deployable proximity mines that are barely visible to us or grenades that temporary blind us, energy and shield strip. 

We just need something more advanced than simple damage increase/decrease and durability. 

 

[TheArmchairThinker]

7 minutes ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

Unpredictable moves

With how many abilities to lock down the whole map?

8 minutes ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

Ability to dodge certain attacks from us

Doesn't matter, even Saryn can ignore that ability with miasma

9 minutes ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

More abilities (like different types of grenades or deployable turrets that shred you easily).

And at what level should they able to shred you easily? Make it able to shred chroma with 300% strength and you will see the rest abandoned from being "too squishy". Make it shred most at reasonable time and see tanks like chroma or inaros just walking to the turret like nothing happens

10 minutes ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

(like going back for several platoons of elite reinforcements or setting off a alarm that perma locks a door).

Elite reinforcement, maybe but what makes them such a danger? And for perma lock, does that mean mission fail if they lock the door on the way to extraction?

11 minutes ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

Challenge = More interactivity, more ways to deal with a situation, unpredictable enemies.

More interactivity is possible when you're at equal or weaker than your enemies. You're a god fighting mortals, explain how you interact with your godly powers

12 minutes ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

Challenge = MORE VARIETY.

What variety? Only saying "VARIETY" doesn't make everyone understand. You just look like most people in forums screaming of wanting this and that but never specify the word, and most of them end up complaining on what they get from DE trying to make things from their words

[(PSN)Reaper330011]

1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

With how many abilities to lock down the whole map?

Doesn't matter, even Saryn can ignore that ability with miasma

And at what level should they able to shred you easily? Make it able to shred chroma with 300% strength and you will see the rest abandoned from being "too squishy". Make it shred most at reasonable time and see tanks like chroma or inaros just walking to the turret like nothing happens

Elite reinforcement, maybe but what makes them such a danger? And for perma lock, does that mean mission fail if they lock the door on the way to extraction?

More interactivity is possible when you're at equal or weaker than your enemies. You're a god fighting mortals, explain how you interact with your godly powers

What variety? Only saying "VARIETY" doesn't make everyone understand. You just look like most people in forums screaming of wanting this and that but never specify the word, and most of them end up complaining on what they get from DE trying to make things from their words

We’re not gods. That’s a bad mentality. That’s what I mean. Make fights equal. Make fights equal = More interactivity = more ways to handle a situation = a more advanced and fun game.

 

No the mission won’t fail. The door will lock so we will have to find an alternative route or perhaps still a bypass from a commander. More stuff.

Variety. Let’s see, more variety in missions, stuff where killing/breaking things is NOT 80% of the mission, different ways to kill enemies instead of hitting 1 button, more differences in enemies instead of them being able to stand still, shoot, throw stuff and die, more variety in enemy abilities so it’s not too easy for us to handle everything, etc.

Elite reinforcement isn’t much, but it still gives enemies more things to do, because getting reinforcements requires them to retreat, possibly set off an alarm, which will prevent you from killing them, which gives you more interactivity, like a side objective which requires you to chase them down to stop them from calling in 200 more heavies for you to kill (trust me you do not want that in steel path). 
 

 

Watch that turret (easy as hell to kill) chip away your health reserves in a matter of seconds, with dead shot accuracy and a unimaginable fire rate (possibly a corpus thing since they are better at that type of stuff. Grineer would work too.) With enemies all around it, a bit spread so aoe won’t work to well on them (it works but won’t kill them as fast as if they were closer together). Enemies, who should have the intelligence to not clump up together leaving them vulnerable to air, should support turrets like that and try hard to kill you.

We use guns all the time, they should be trained to dodge some of our bullets (yep saryn’s nuke can’t be dodged that’s right, talking about bullets and throwable melees here). 
 

 

The enemies should have more interactivity (I’m saying this again), more things to DO. 

 

Right now they are too easy to kill. Even if they aren’t strong, they should have more options in their load out , more things to do than shoot and die. 

[(PSN)Reaper330011]

1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

 A annoying wall of salt.

If you actually read the messages before you sent that message you would’ve understand what I meant by variety. 
 

Is it fun to be brain dead while playing a game? Basically half asleep while hitting 1 button?  No.

 

I think your forgetting: WHAT IS THE POINT OF GAMES?

 

Entertainment, fun. Since those are the reasons if your brain dead you get nothing right? 
 

Enemies shouldn’t be annoyingly hard and one shot that it causes a unhealthy amount of frustration, but they should ‘t be too weak so you’ll be brain dead the whole time.

 

If you fight a enemy or enemies that are on level on you and if you beat them, if you use strategy, if you put EFFORT and THINKING into beating them then trust me, once you do best them it will give you immense satisfaction and joy. 
 

Make the enemies hardcore and intense but not too much and overkill that you’ll throw your remote/computer into a wall after the 50th time you’ve failed the mission. 
 

 

And by hardcore intense, I mean give them more interactivity, more things to do (how many times have I said this already), more abilities, not just simply pressing a button that increases their armour by 500%.

 

 

[TheArmchairThinker]

13 minutes ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

We’re not gods. That’s a bad mentality. That’s what I mean. Make fights equal. Make fights equal = More interactivity = more ways to handle a situation = a more advanced and fun game.

And your mentality is still stuck on things being equal. What's wrong with warframe being gods? There are tons of games with fights being equal

14 minutes ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

No the mission won’t fail. The door will lock so we will have to find an alternative route or perhaps still a bypass from a commander. More stuff.

Unless DE change the tileset system to allow alternative route, I doubt this will happen anytime soon when there's only one way to extraction

15 minutes ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

Variety. Let’s see, more variety in missions, stuff where killing/breaking things is NOT 80% of the mission

As if other games have something where killing/breaking things is not 80% of the mission. What shooter game that isn't killing/breaking things 80% of the mission?

17 minutes ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

different ways to kill enemies instead of hitting 1 button

Such as?

18 minutes ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

more differences in enemies instead of them being able to stand still, shoot, throw stuff and die

They do have differences, provided they're not killed in one bullet

19 minutes ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

possibly set off an alarm, which will prevent you from killing them

And how setting off an alarm preventing us from killing them? Suddenly they have invincibility just from setting off an alarm?

20 minutes ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

Watch that turret (easy as hell to kill) chip away your health reserves in a matter of seconds, with dead shot accuracy and a unimaginable fire rate (possibly a corpus thing since they are better at that type of stuff. Grineer would work too.) With enemies all around it, a bit spread so aoe won’t work to well on them (it works but won’t kill them as fast as if they were closer together). Enemies, who should have the intelligence to not clump up together leaving them vulnerable to air, should support turrets like that and try hard to kill you.

Let's see if you're not the first one complaining about this when it's added into the game

21 minutes ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

We use guns all the time, they should be trained to dodge some of our bullets (yep saryn’s nuke can’t be dodged that’s right, talking about bullets and throwable melees here). 

That just makes bullets and throwable melees pointless and people would shift to any AoE abilities that ignore cover and enemy dodge

10 minutes ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

Is it fun to be brain dead while playing a game? Basically half asleep while hitting 1 button?  No.

For you

10 minutes ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

Entertainment, fun. Since those are the reasons if your brain dead you get nothing right? 

Not really, killing enemies with dumb ways is my version of entertainment and fun. I'm not playing games to keep me on my toes as entertainment and fun

Seeing how you go, looks like you're the salty one

[(PSN)Reaper330011]

7 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And your mentality is still stuck on things being equal. What's wrong with warframe being gods? There are tons of games with fights being equal

Unless DE change the tileset system to allow alternative route, I doubt this will happen anytime soon when there's only one way to extraction

As if other games have something where killing/breaking things is not 80% of the mission. What shooter game that isn't killing/breaking things 80% of the mission?

Such as?

They do have differences, provided they're not killed in one bullet

And how setting off an alarm preventing us from killing them? Suddenly they have invincibility just from setting off an alarm?

Let's see if you're not the first one complaining about this when it's added into the game

That just makes bullets and throwable melees pointless and people would shift to any AoE abilities that ignore cover and enemy dodge

For you

Not really, killing enemies with dumb ways is my version of entertainment and fun. I'm not playing games to keep me on my toes as entertainment and fun

Seeing how you go, looks like you're the salty one

“What’s wrong with warframe being gods”? Oh nothing much, just the fact that we can hit 1 button and be done with it without getting any joy out of anything,

Probably won’t happen yes, but like I said you could also kill a commander as an alternative, get credentials from him then unlock the door.

 

Well not really. You can kill them, but setting off an alarm then just running away for more soldiers as fast as possible, meanwhile your probably preoccupied with the ones still fighting you.

 

”Provided they aren’t killed in 1 bullet” so give them ways to survive without just increasing durability.

being able to dodge every bullet is op, I mean occasionally they’ll make a dodge. 
 

You find it fun to be brain dead, playing a game but not using it for the reason it was created?

 

 

You have your own way of fun fine, I’m talking about people who prefer to fight enemies who AREN’T statues that die in a nanosecond.

[Pizzarugi]

5 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

With how many abilities to lock down the whole map?

 

5 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Doesn't matter, even Saryn can ignore that ability with miasma

Solve both by making enemies resistant to warframe abilities, especially "specialist" types.

5 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And at what level should they able to shred you easily? Make it able to shred chroma with 300% strength and you will see the rest abandoned from being "too squishy". Make it shred most at reasonable time and see tanks like chroma or inaros just walking to the turret like nothing happens

I think the game should have "specialist" enemies that exist based on warframe archetype in the mission. There are two kinds: Specialists that counter frame archetypes, and specialists that are all-round difficult and designed to be countered by specific frame archetypes.

There could be an anti-tank specialist that uses abilities which break through your defense abilities with ease and greatly reduces the effectiveness of their abilities. Got a nuke frame? Your team could be greeted by a specialist that makes all nuke abilities have significantly less damage and/or range. Healer? There could be a specialist that shuts down their ability to do any healing. Their presence greatly weakens the frames they're counter to throughout the entire map, meaning that ignoring them is dangerous and should also be focused on as soon as possible.

A turret creating specialist could be an all-round difficult specialist that is countered by CC frames. Another could be one that creates massive area denial abilities which deal tons of damage and can be countered by single-target damage frames. Another could be a powerful assassin type that singles out a player to deal massive damage and is countered by tank frames. Then there's a tank, a slow yet unstoppable enemy that takes very little damage, but is vulnerable to nuke frames. Finally there is a specialist that afflicts all various kinds of debuffs on the team including hard CC like stuns and knockdowns, but can only be countered by healers. When the offensive specialist is being countered by a frame, their capabilities get disrupted, resulting in them having reduced or no effect for a brief moment of time. Turret specialists have their turrets temporarily disabled. Area denial specialists can only use their AoEs more sparsely, tanks lose all damage reduction, debuffers have weakened effects against you.

If you're missing the frame archetype (playing solo, team just doesn't have one, etc), specialists will still spawn. While they can be countered by specific frames, they can still be killed by others at reduced effectiveness. Imagine if an area denial specialist appears, but you lack a single-target frame archetype. That could make for one wild experience having to deal with them while still doing the mission. Anti-frame specialists don't spawn if the frame archetype they counter isn't in the team, because there'd be no point.

5 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Elite reinforcement, maybe but what makes them such a danger?

I can see "elite" enemies being a new subtype. Special enemy platoons that are immune to any abilities, and they're all carrying shields that project a forcefield which can't be damaged. Attempting to get close will have them bash you away. However, since they're operating as a single unit, they can't turn to face you quickly enough which means you need to outmaneuver them to get behind the shields to damage them. Another elite could be highly mobile fighters that can use the environment to their advantage. Think of the Comba/Scrambus enemies with their skate boots, now imagine if they could move incredibly fast and skate along the walls all while shooting at you, never once stopping and immune to CC. Elites can also include healers that can revive allies so long as they weren't dismembered or disintegrated, and also provide both healing and high damage reduction (ancient healers are a good example, but can be expanded upon for the other factions).

5 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

More interactivity is possible when you're at equal or weaker than your enemies. You're a god fighting mortals, explain how you interact with your godly powers

You're not a god, just technologically more advanced and aided by the power of Void magic. Not even Superman is a god, and the makers gave him kryptonite to provide vulnerabilities for villains to exploit. The same can be applied to warframes. Nullify their powers or augment themselves to be stronger against it, similar to what the Sentients have been doing lately with gaining diminishing returns from you.

3 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

As if other games have something where killing/breaking things is not 80% of the mission. What shooter game that isn't killing/breaking things 80% of the mission?

While correct, there could be more things that could be added in order to make them more interesting. I've touched on this ages ago on another thread, which I'll share here:

Quote

I've been mulling over the idea in my head about applying random modifiers in endless missions every round, inspired by Mass Effect 3's multiplayer, Defection, and Disruption. First five minutes of survival is normal, next round is "Lights Out!" where the mission goes pitch black, the music stops, the minimap gets scrambled, and the only things that emit light is gunfire and abilities, so you've gotta hack a console somewhere in the playable area to put everything back to normal. In the next round after, the lone Tenno operative has to cut through your area, starting in one dead end room and you have to escort them to another one they path out, success rewards extra life support and failure stops capsules from spawning for the remainder of the round. This would all be random.

The events would range from "beneficial" (ex. Allied factions arrive to assist for a time period), to "conditional" (ex. This side objective must be completed and you'll get rewarded or punished depending on if you were successful), to "malicious" (ex. "Lights Out!", faction elite enemies like bursas or manics spawning for the entire round, non-arena planet boss attacks and retreats before they can be killed, random syndicate death squads).

The challenge here would come from how often the game throws malicious events at the player. First round is Lights Out, then you're swarmed by Grineer Manics in the next, then you gotta babysit a traveling operative, then a disruption field hits and you can only use one randomly selected weapon, etc.

 

[(PSN)Reaper330011]

42 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

 

Solve both by making enemies resistant to warframe abilities, especially "specialist" types.

I think the game should have "specialist" enemies that exist based on warframe archetype in the mission. There are two kinds: Specialists that counter frame archetypes, and specialists that are all-round difficult and designed to be countered by specific frame archetypes.

There could be an anti-tank specialist that uses abilities which break through your defense abilities with ease and greatly reduces the effectiveness of their abilities. Got a nuke frame? Your team could be greeted by a specialist that makes all nuke abilities have significantly less damage and/or range. Healer? There could be a specialist that shuts down their ability to do any healing. Their presence greatly weakens the frames they're counter to throughout the entire map, meaning that ignoring them is dangerous and should also be focused on as soon as possible.

A turret creating specialist could be an all-round difficult specialist that is countered by CC frames. Another could be one that creates massive area denial abilities which deal tons of damage and can be countered by single-target damage frames. Another could be a powerful assassin type that singles out a player to deal massive damage and is countered by tank frames. Then there's a tank, a slow yet unstoppable enemy that takes very little damage, but is vulnerable to nuke frames. Finally there is a specialist that afflicts all various kinds of debuffs on the team including hard CC like stuns and knockdowns, but can only be countered by healers. When the offensive specialist is being countered by a frame, their capabilities get disrupted, resulting in them having reduced or no effect for a brief moment of time. Turret specialists have their turrets temporarily disabled. Area denial specialists can only use their AoEs more sparsely, tanks lose all damage reduction, debuffers have weakened effects against you.

If you're missing the frame archetype (playing solo, team just doesn't have one, etc), specialists will still spawn. While they can be countered by specific frames, they can still be killed by others at reduced effectiveness. Imagine if an area denial specialist appears, but you lack a single-target frame archetype. That could make for one wild experience having to deal with them while still doing the mission. Anti-frame specialists don't spawn if the frame archetype they counter isn't in the team, because there'd be no point.

I can see "elite" enemies being a new subtype. Special enemy platoons that are immune to any abilities, and they're all carrying shields that project a forcefield which can't be damaged. Attempting to get close will have them bash you away. However, since they're operating as a single unit, they can't turn to face you quickly enough which means you need to outmaneuver them to get behind the shields to damage them. Another elite could be highly mobile fighters that can use the environment to their advantage. Think of the Comba/Scrambus enemies with their skate boots, now imagine if they could move incredibly fast and skate along the walls all while shooting at you, never once stopping and immune to CC. Elites can also include healers that can revive allies so long as they weren't dismembered or disintegrated, and also provide both healing and high damage reduction (ancient healers are a good example, but can be expanded upon for the other factions).

You're not a god, just technologically more advanced and aided by the power of Void magic. Not even Superman is a god, and the makers gave him kryptonite to provide vulnerabilities for villains to exploit. The same can be applied to warframes. Nullify their powers or augment themselves to be stronger against it, similar to what the Sentients have been doing lately with gaining diminishing returns from you.

While correct, there could be more things that could be added in order to make them more interesting. I've touched on this ages ago on another thread, which I'll share here:

 

Brilliant idea. Purely brilliant.

 

this is what I mean.

 

The only issue with specialist enemies is that it’s hard to narrow a frame down to a single role/archetype, but otherwise I like the idea. It makes enemies more special, and I like the idea. 

 

for elite enemies maybe they’ll only spawn when the alarm is sounded? If the alarm is sounded then the entire area will go on lockdown, preventing you from opening certain doors until lockdown is over, perma locking 1 door, and spawning elite enemies and specialists.

Also, every frame has an archetype right? So are you saying that specialists are set in a certain map (like for example, Defense, healing, and nuke specialists are spawnable on the map but no others)? Because otherwise, different specialists can spawn to match the respective player (like for example, if you have a defensive, healing, and offensive in a squad, the set specialists that spawn will change according to the squad? 
 

It’s a good idea and will make killing enemies more fun, overall.

 

If turret specialists appear, imagine having to fight a wall of dead shot accuracy turrets.

 

[Lutesque]

1 hour ago, Pizzarugi said:

I think the game should have "specialist" enemies that exist based on warframe archetype in the mission. There are two kinds: Specialists that counter frame archetypes, and specialists that are all-round difficult and designed to be countered by specific frame archetypes.

There could be an anti-tank specialist that uses abilities which break through your defense abilities with ease and greatly reduces the effectiveness of their abilities. Got a nuke frame? Your team could be greeted by a specialist that makes all nuke abilities have significantly less damage and/or range. Healer? There could be a specialist that shuts down their ability to do any healing. Their presence greatly weakens the frames they're counter to throughout the entire map, meaning that ignoring them is dangerous and should also be focused on as soon as possible.

A turret creating specialist could be an all-round difficult specialist that is countered by CC frames. Another could be one that creates massive area denial abilities which deal tons of damage and can be countered by single-target damage frames. Another could be a powerful assassin type that singles out a player to deal massive damage and is countered by tank frames. Then there's a tank, a slow yet unstoppable enemy that takes very little damage, but is vulnerable to nuke frames. Finally there is a specialist that afflicts all various kinds of debuffs on the team including hard CC like stuns and knockdowns, but can only be countered by healers. When the offensive specialist is being countered by a frame, their capabilities get disrupted, resulting in them having reduced or no effect for a brief moment of time. Turret specialists have their turrets temporarily disabled. Area denial specialists can only use their AoEs more sparsely, tanks lose all damage reduction, debuffers have weakened effects against you.

If you're missing the frame archetype (playing solo, team just doesn't have one, etc), specialists will still spawn. While they can be countered by specific frames, they can still be killed by others at reduced effectiveness. Imagine if an area denial specialist appears, but you lack a single-target frame archetype. That could make for one wild experience having to deal with them while still doing the mission. Anti-frame specialists don't spawn if the frame archetype they counter isn't in the team, because there'd be no point.

This is all very sexy stuff... But... Uhm... Where's the fun in that ?

1 hour ago, Pizzarugi said:

I can see "elite" enemies being a new subtype. Special enemy platoons that are immune to any abilities, and they're all carrying shields that project a forcefield which can't be damaged. Attempting to get close will have them bash you away. However, since they're operating as a single unit, they can't turn to face you quickly enough which means you need to outmaneuver them to get behind the shields to damage them. Another elite could be highly mobile fighters that can use the environment to their advantage. Think of the Comba/Scrambus enemies with their skate boots, now imagine if they could move incredibly fast and skate along the walls all while shooting at you, never once stopping and immune to CC. Elites can also include healers that can revive allies so long as they weren't dismembered or disintegrated, and also provide both healing and high damage reduction (ancient healers are a good example, but can be expanded upon for the other factions).

Soooo Nullifiers 2.0 basically ? 😐

1 hour ago, Pizzarugi said:

You're not a god, just technologically more advanced and aided by the power of Void magic. Not even Superman is a god, and the makers gave him kryptonite to provide vulnerabilities for villains to exploit. The same can be applied to warframes. Nullify their powers or augment themselves to be stronger against it, similar to what the Sentients have been doing lately with gaining diminishing returns from you

You do remember that its public oppinion that Superman's weaknesses to Kryptonite has always felt kinda silly ? That's why people prefer Goku 😝

 

[ShortCat]

On 2021-09-14 at 11:50 PM, Loza03 said:

-snip-

I am sorry but I still cannot comprehend your though process on this topic. I see different and simultaneously opposite views with regards to the same issue.

On one side, you see a problem, that Corpus are weak enough to be taken down by a suboptimal loadout, you don't like their defensive properties, yet you oppose making them more durable. On the other side, Grineer require a dedicated build in order to be manageble, yet emphasis on anti-armor builds is not desired, even though you speak in favor of making damage types more meaningfull.

Your argument is that our Arsenal has power creeped, which is an absolutely correct statement. However, I do not agree with the reasons you state. Strong weapons simply have better stats and are stronger than weak weapons, thus they will perform better, regardless what you are fighting, how you build your weapon or which equation describes armor scaling.
There might be a slight  lean towards armor friendly gear, however the reason for it is the absolut stupidity of the avarage WF player. I cannot underline how low-skilled, ignorant & lazy the avarage WF player is.

 

On 2021-09-15 at 12:45 AM, Loza03 said:

I want to have a lot of fun playing what I like. I want to look at my vast arsenal, browse through it and wonder 'what weapon should I play today' without a nagging voice in the back of my head saying "if you use that gun you really like, you're going to have a miserable time in 'high level' content." I want to pick up a new weapon and not feel like if I'm wasting my time putting anything other than the same tired old sets of mods on it.

I understand that feeling. I do not like running around with the most meta gear, since it becomes borring fast; I learned it back in 2014.
That said, I also understand that power creep is a natural occerrence and cannot be completely avoided. After 7 years it got so bad, that steel path was required. Even if I did not and do not agree with this solution, steel path is the new standard.
I also understand that most challanging content should not be the place for bad gear. You may like an off-meta weapon, still you have to acknowledge in what power bracket it belongs and threat it accordingly. Waging war against entire game systems because your favorite weapons got overtaken by time is a selfish endeavor. Best advice I could give is to look for similar & stronger gear options.

[ShortCat]

On 2021-09-14 at 11:33 PM, Lutesque said:

There's literally nothing I could care about less than Lore 🤔....

You said it yourself that you cannot comprehend why an enemy should have resistance agaisnt fire, or bullets, or push mechanics. I choose the word lore initially, even though it was less precise but more civil term. The correct term would be common sense, or your lack of it.

On 2021-09-14 at 11:33 PM, Lutesque said:

A game doesn't become more diverse just because Fire Magic doesn't work on a Fire Elemental.... All you have to do is make a new build exactly the same way as the fire Build except you just swap out all the Fire with Ice or PineApples or whatever then go back to playing exactly the same way you were playing before....

But you cannot change your build in the middle of an encounter! After you choose your build, you are committed and at this point the game can throw at you a mix of enemies, which are either easy or not easy depending on your initial choice.

On 2021-09-14 at 11:33 PM, Lutesque said:

And "Diverse" is definitely not the word I would use to describe it 😱 !!! It's Homogeneous As #&#$ 😭 

I never played Dark Souls, so I cannot validate anything you said, but one bad example does not make an argument. All you have is one bad example. If the game does not throw mixed enemy parties at you, so that you should adjust your gameplay, then said game does a poor job at managing its systems. This does not prove that the general idea is bad.
In fact even your Dark Souls example falls apart, because you back it up with knowledge & expereince. I am ready to bet, it is a different story on a first try, when the palyer has no knowledge of what awaits behind the next dore. In this case a palyer with flame sword would have a wastly different experience than one with a lightning spear, wouldn't they? This is diversity.
If you build several helbards and equip them with different elements in preparation for every possible encounter and experience the same fight over and over again, then it is you who did all the homogenization.

[Lutesque]

31 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

You said it yourself that you cannot comprehend why an enemy should have resistance agaisnt fire, or bullets, or push mechanics.

I'm pretty sure I didn't say that. 😐 

33 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

But you cannot change your build in the middle of an encounter! After you choose your build, you are committed and at this point the game can throw at you a mix of enemies, which are either easy or not easy depending on your initial choice.

Depends on the Game... Some games let you change them on the fly and others don't... But that's not the point...

The point is... Why ?

Are telling me that when you play a game you are excited by the concept that some enemies just take less damage because you are using the Wrong Coloured Numbers ? Is this what passes for Depth ?

36 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

I never played Dark Souls, so I cannot validate anything you said, but one bad example does not make an argument. All you have is one bad example. If the game does not throw mixed enemy parties at you, so that you should adjust your gameplay, then said game does a poor job at managing its systems. This does not prove that the general idea is bad.

You don't have to play Dark Souls... Literally every RPG That uses multiple Damage/Resistance Types does this... Pick one.... It's equally stupid regardless of which game you see it in... 

Take The Witcher 3 for Example.... Geralt Carries Two Swords... A Steel Sword for Humans and Animals and a Silver Sword for Monster.... Whether you're fighting One group exclusively or both Groups mixed together... Does this limitation really add anything to the game play.... Geralt uses Both Swords the exact same way... The difference is each sword does better against one of the two groups.... This doesn't magically become engaging by mixing the Groups Together and Taking away one of his swords or leaving it there... Both are dumb because one makes you switch swords because Damage Numbers and the other just leaves you with a group that's Resistant to damage and so you have to deal with it...

This is Further exacerbated by the Oils that work better on the Subcategories of those enemies...

 

I can Comprehend the system just fine... Infact I would say that I have mastered it... Which is how I know it's stupid and a lazy way to attempt to Differentiate otherwise Similar enemies...

It's a universally bad idea... Want more examples ? I've played a bunch Of RPGs that do this crap... Give me the word and Il explain how dumb it is in each game I've played...

 

 

[(PSN)Reaper330011]

21 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

I'm pretty sure I didn't say that. 😐 

Depends on the Game... Some games let you change them on the fly and others don't... But that's not the point...

The point is... Why ?

Are telling me that when you play a game you are excited by the concept that some enemies just take less damage because you are using the Wrong Coloured Numbers ? Is this what passes for Depth ?

You don't have to play Dark Souls... Literally every RPG That uses multiple Damage/Resistance Types does this... Pick one.... It's equally stupid regardless of which game you see it in... 

Take The Witcher 3 for Example.... Geralt Carries Two Swords... A Steel Sword for Humans and Animals and a Silver Sword for Monster.... Whether you're fighting One group exclusively or both Groups mixed together... Does this limitation really add anything to the game play.... Geralt uses Both Swords the exact same way... The difference is each sword does better against one of the two groups.... This doesn't magically become engaging by mixing the Groups Together and Taking away one of his swords or leaving it there... Both are dumb because one makes you switch swords because Damage Numbers and the other just leaves you with a group that's Resistant to damage and so you have to deal with it...

This is Further exacerbated by the Oils that work better on the Subcategories of those enemies...

 

I can Comprehend the system just fine... Infact I would say that I have mastered it... Which is how I know it's stupid and a lazy way to attempt to Differentiate otherwise Similar enemies...

It's a universally bad idea... Want more examples ? I've played a bunch Of RPGs that do this crap... Give me the word and Il explain how dumb it is in each game I've played...

 

 

*takes a gun*

*shoots it at enemies*

*innate electric damage shreds robotic but deals 1 damage to other enemies*

*switches to identical gun* 

*innate toxic damage shreds the other enemies but doesn’t do as well to robotic*

your firing a gun.

firing it in the same way.

same speed.

same innate damage.

same appearance.

why does one work better for one thing than the other? For what reason?

[(PSN)Reaper330011]

1 hour ago, ShortCat said:

You said it yourself that you cannot comprehend why an enemy should have resistance agaisnt fire, or bullets, or push mechanics. I choose the word lore initially, even though it was less precise but more civil term. The correct term would be common sense, or your lack of it.

But you cannot change your build in the middle of an encounter! After you choose your build, you are committed and at this point the game can throw at you a mix of enemies, which are either easy or not easy depending on your initial choice.

I never played Dark Souls, so I cannot validate anything you said, but one bad example does not make an argument. All you have is one bad example. If the game does not throw mixed enemy parties at you, so that you should adjust your gameplay, then said game does a poor job at managing its systems. This does not prove that the general idea is bad.
In fact even your Dark Souls example falls apart, because you back it up with knowledge & expereince. I am ready to bet, it is a different story on a first try, when the palyer has no knowledge of what awaits behind the next dore. In this case a palyer with flame sword would have a wastly different experience than one with a lightning spear, wouldn't they? This is diversity.
If you build several helbards and equip them with different elements in preparation for every possible encounter and experience the same fight over and over again, then it is you who did all the homogenization.

He said that he didn’t understand the POINT of it, like why it exists, not how it works.

 

2 hours ago, Lutesque said:

This is all very sexy stuff... But... Uhm... Where's the fun in that ?

Soooo Nullifiers 2.0 basically ? 😐

You do remember that its public oppinion that Superman's weaknesses to Kryptonite has always felt kinda silly ? That's why people prefer Goku 😝

 

Yes It’s a cool idea in my opinion, more variety in enemies. The fun is, you’ll be able to meet a match. (Don’t take that the other way)

Imagine killing 1 all by yourself. Imagine killing an army of them because you put effort in. You’ll scream “YES!” and get immense satisfaction if you killed one. (Then again, that’s how I WOULD feel. You could be different)

 

Techo-Advanced-Elite-Basher-Terminator-Annihilator-Nullfier 2.0

 

[Lutesque]

58 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

In fact even your Dark Souls example falls apart, because you back it up with knowledge & expereince. I am ready to bet, it is a different story on a first try, when the palyer has no knowledge of what awaits behind the next dore. In this case a palyer with flame sword would have a wastly different experience than one with a lightning spear, wouldn't they? This is diversity.

Yes the experience would be vastly different... But definitely wouldn't be better... Or are you saying that Haphazardly flailing at an enemy that doesn't take much damage is some how fun.... Yeah let's go ask all the New Warframe players who haven't figured out how to mod their Weapons how much fun that is 😐 

Seriously if this is what passes for Diversity to you then I urge you to play other games .. you have no idea what you're missing out on...

1 hour ago, ShortCat said:

If you build several helbards and equip them with different elements in preparation for every possible encounter and experience the same fight over and over again, then it is you who did all the homogenization.

That's exactly why it's Bad... 

[(PSN)Reaper330011]

25 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Yes the experience would be vastly different... But definitely wouldn't be better... Or are you saying that Haphazardly flailing at an enemy that doesn't take much damage is some how fun.... Yeah let's go ask all the New Warframe players who haven't figured out how to mod their Weapons how much fun that is 😐 

Seriously if this is what passes for Diversity to you then I urge you to play other games .. you have no idea what you're missing out on...

That's exactly why it's Bad... 

I even find guys like General Servus Run and that other guy on Mars annoying (can’t remember his name) not because they are difficult but because I’m throwing like, a million degree Celsius at them to no affect.

 

NOT FUN.

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

*takes a gun*

*shoots it at enemies*

*innate electric damage shreds robotic but deals 1 damage to other enemies*

*switches to identical gun* 

*innate toxic damage shreds the other enemies but doesn’t do as well to robotic*

your firing a gun.

firing it in the same way.

same speed.

same innate damage.

same appearance.

why does one work better for one thing than the other? For what reason?

Another interaction that gets shut off by simply overpowering everything, but when faced with a group of enemies, some of which are resistant to one type of damage and some which are resistant to another, it raises the question of which weapon are you going to use.

If Warframe didn’t have a secondary, primary, and melee, and only had one gun that we could take into a fight, it would be understandable if the damage types were simplified to one. As it stands, the mix of enemies means that sometimes a player needs to use a different weapon at different times; maybe that enemy is weak to the element assigned to melee, and so the player has to either chip away from a distance with un-matched element weapons, or jump into the fray with high-risk, high reward melee. Maybe the secondary is precision and the primary is explosive, and the particular group of enemies that a player is currently fighting makes the mechanically non-ideal weapon (the single target weapon) the better one for damage. The player could try and power through the group with the non-matched AoE, or the player can more quickly pick them off individually with the matched single-target.

[(PSN)Reaper330011]

54 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Another interaction that gets shut off by simply overpowering everything, but when faced with a group of enemies, some of which are resistant to one type of damage and some which are resistant to another, it raises the question of which weapon are you going to use.

If Warframe didn’t have a secondary, primary, and melee, and only had one gun that we could take into a fight, it would be understandable if the damage types were simplified to one. As it stands, the mix of enemies means that sometimes a player needs to use a different weapon at different times; maybe that enemy is weak to the element assigned to melee, and so the player has to either chip away from a distance with un-matched element weapons, or jump into the fray with high-risk, high reward melee. Maybe the secondary is precision and the primary is explosive, and the particular group of enemies that a player is currently fighting makes the mechanically non-ideal weapon (the single target weapon) the better one for damage. The player could try and power through the group with the non-matched AoE, or the player can more quickly pick them off individually with the matched single-target.

Imagine this situation:

 

 You have a strong primary (Kuva Sarr) and a weak secondary. 
the secondary has the damage the enemies are weak to, the primary has the one the enemies are resistant to but the Zarr is more powerful.

Which will you use?

You’ll eventually die trying to make a decision so it’s unnecessarily complicated (worse when it’s void).

[(NSW)Greybones]

5 minutes ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

Imagine this situation:

 

 You have a strong primary (Kuva Sarr) and a weak secondary. 
the secondary has the damage the enemies are weak to, the primary has the one the enemies are resistant to but the Zarr is more powerful.

Which will you use?

You’ll eventually die trying to make a decision so it’s unnecessarily complicated (worse when it’s void).

Bring level-matched equipment and they all get a chance to shine in certain situations. You bring an overtuned AoE of course you’re going to use it over anything else. If it’s matched to the fight though, it will do well in some situations while struggling in others (so it’s a good thing you’ve got that secondary and  melee).

 🤔 I wonder if this is what’s meant by “Build Diversity”. Bring a diverse build and there will be a variety of situations that a player will have to use the right option for.

Overtune your Zarr though and you’ve got one weapon worth using. Not very diverse

[(PSN)Reaper330011]

6 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Bring level-matched equipment and they all get a chance to shine in certain situations. You bring an overtuned AoE of course you’re going to use it over anything else. If it’s matched to the fight though, it will do well in some situations while struggling in others (so it’s a good thing you’ve got that secondary and  melee).

 🤔 I wonder if this is what’s meant by “Build Diversity”. Bring a diverse build and there will be a variety of situations that a player will have to use the right option for.

Overtune your Zarr though and you’ve got one weapon worth using. Not very diverse

Yes, there are solutions to it, but why? Isn’t it overly complicated to make enemies have Restistsnces/weaknesses to like 10 different element types?

just do something like:

Grineer more durable

Corpus more smart/offensive

Infested more buggy (Pun intended).