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Looks like it's time to tone down slash and viral


TheArmchairThinker
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1 minute ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

Yes, there are solutions to it, but why? Isn’t it overly complicated to make enemies have Restistsnces/weaknesses to like 10 different element types?

just do something like:

Grineer more durable

Corpus more smart/offensive

Infested more buggy (Pun intended). 

Reaper, I’m going to be unpleasantly blunt; you come across like someone who never encountered the situations I’m describing. If I had to hazard a guess, throughout your Warframe experience you fought everything with “one size fits all” builds, builds that only worked because you poured so much damage into them that the game simply folded over

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2 hours ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

I even find guys like General Servus Run and that other guy on Mars annoying (can’t remember his name) not because they are difficult but because I’m throwing like, a million degree Celsius at them to no affect.

 

NOT FUN.

He's a symptom of what happens when the game becomes braindead easy, bosses and certain particularly tough enemies get invulnerability phases because it's the only way they can stay alive long enough to remain a threat to you. This isn't new, Lech Kril's update is ancient by now, but he was the beginning of invulnerability phases. Same thing Path of Exile has to do for rich players who can 1shot bosses in that game.

Sounds to me like that could've also been fixed with some nerfs.

Edited by Pizzarugi
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38 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Reaper, I’m going to be unpleasantly blunt; you come across like someone who never encountered the situations I’m describing. If I had to hazard a guess, throughout your Warframe experience you fought everything with “one size fits all” builds, builds that only worked because you poured so much damage into them that the game simply folded over

Hey atleast that approach isn't Annoying... It would be much worse if you couldn't do this....

 

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43 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Reaper, I’m going to be unpleasantly blunt; you come across like someone who never encountered the situations I’m describing. If I had to hazard a guess, throughout your Warframe experience you fought everything with “one size fits all” builds, builds that only worked because you poured so much damage into them that the game simply folded over

“One size fits all” will never work. I use 3 builds per frame (as norm)  and spend 10 whole minutes changing them for the respective situation. If I fight grineer I try to go for quick-semitank build since the grineer are slow but quite tough. 
 

For infested i use a fire/viral damage weapons to chip their health away real fast , and heavy armor since shields are useless to their toxic. 
 

For corpus I make myself as durable as possible and use warframes with quick kill abilities and use ones with healing (Sevagoth, which is immortal and mass life steal, Harrow which can get 2000+ over shields, restore energy, make you immortal, and restore health, etc.) since corpus are heavily offensive (those moas just don’t breathe and keep pelting rounds at you).

I pour in ridiculous damage when I’m going to kill an enemy(ies) that are hardcore, not all the time (Why have 10k damage when you can have 2m red crit). 
 

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Just now, Lutesque said:

Hey atleast that approach isn't Annoying... It would be much worse if you couldn't do this....

 

No judgement; it’s player’s choice, and we choose how we play. Not everyone wants to switch away from a favourite build, I get that (though I get it less if the build isn’t fun anymore).

But colour me unsurprised that the decision to simplify the game has resulted in a simpler game

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18 minutes ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

“One size fits all” will never work. I use 3 builds per frame (as norm)  and spend 10 whole minutes changing them for the respective situation. If I fight grineer I try to go for quick-semitank build since the grineer are slow but quite tough. 
 

For infested i use a fire/viral damage weapons to chip their health away real fast , and heavy armor since shields are useless to their toxic. 
 

For corpus I make myself as durable as possible and use warframes with quick kill abilities and use ones with healing (Sevagoth, which is immortal and mass life steal, Harrow which can get 2000+ over shields, restore energy, make you immortal, and restore health, etc.) since corpus are heavily offensive (those moas just don’t breathe and keep pelting rounds at you).

I pour in ridiculous damage when I’m going to kill an enemy(ies) that are hardcore, not all the time (Why have 10k damage when you can have 2m red crit). 
 

Alright, so you’ve got specific builds for specific factions. Not surprising, I used to as well.

It still sounds like we’re on different pages regarding the mission-balanced resistance thing; when you wanted to simplify the different factions into their own categories, that told me that you never (or at least rarely) had to switch weapons or tactics to deal with different enemies, and instead you sort of hit them all equally, and the only difference is the factions themselves.

Because switching it up mid-fight is the interest that the resistances system can provide to a fight. It not only keeps a player on their toes, but if the right elements are brought, the amount of carrying that a single weapon has to do can be lessened, and that can free the player up to equip something other than only damage-increase mods

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
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6 hours ago, Lutesque said:

This is all very sexy stuff... But... Uhm... Where's the fun in that ?

Challenge, fighting a rare enemy that won't behave exactly like the rest of the cannon fodder that gets mowed down with ease and behaves differently with the intent on either killing you or suppressing you.

6 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Soooo Nullifiers 2.0 basically ? 😐

Nope. Specialists are either immune to abilities unrelated to frames that counter them, or they only weaken/nullify specific frame archetypes they were spawned to counter. Nullifiers will shut down everything within a small radius of itself which you can disable at any time. Plus the specialists are rare.

Elite packs don't have nullifying powers, they're simply just immune to you. There's kind of a big difference. They won't stop you from using your powers against anyone except themselves.

6 hours ago, Lutesque said:

You do remember that its public oppinion that Superman's weaknesses to Kryptonite has always felt kinda silly ? That's why people prefer Goku 😝

Goku isn't god either and has been beaten multiple times, sometimes even by having him weakened.

Edited by Pizzarugi
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19 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Challenge, fighting a rare enemy that won't behave exactly like the rest of the cannon fodder that gets mowed down with ease and behaves differently with the intent on either killing you or suppressing you.

How does giving all the Goodies to the enemies and me getting nothing result in more fun ? 😱

20 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Nope. Specialists are either immune to abilities unrelated to frames that counter them, or they only weaken/nullify specific frame archetypes they were spawned to counter. Nullifiers will shut down everything within a small radius of itself which you can disable at any time. Plus the specialists are rare.

Elite packs don't have nullifying powers, they're simply just immune to you. There's kind of a big difference. They won't stop you from using your powers against anyone except themselves.

Sounds like Nullifiers to me... 

21 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Goku isn't god either and has been beaten multiple times, sometimes even by having him weakened.

He actually is a God....and he didn't get Beaten.... He was just catching his Breath alil bit...😝

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14 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

How does giving all the Goodies to the enemies and me getting nothing result in more fun ? 😱

Who said anything about them not having goodies? I'm sure DE could think of something to give them. High chance of rare mats, new frame/weapon blueprints/parts or something.

14 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Sounds like Nullifiers to me... 

Lemme know when Nullifiers stop disabling your abilities, are only immune to your powers, and come in large groups when enemies manage to summon them. :P

Edited by Pizzarugi
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3 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Who said anything about them not having goodies? I'm sure DE could think of something to give them. High chance of rare mats, new frame/weapon blueprints/parts or something.

That's not what I meant... I don't want to be Bribed into dealing with Something so frustrating I want the enemies not to be so frustrating in the first place.

5 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Lemme know when Nullifiers stop disabling your abilities, are only immune to your powers, and come in large groups when enemies manage to summon them. :P

All the same to me... If my Abilities don't work on my end or on the Enemies End... Then I'm crying Nullifier.... 😭

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21 hours ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

“What’s wrong with warframe being gods”? Oh nothing much, just the fact that we can hit 1 button and be done with it without getting any joy out of anything,

We? Speak for yourself, I find joy from hitting one button and be done with it. It shows how powerful I am from all of those things I do to gain the power. Why must warframe be the same with the rest of the game? I barely play other games now seeing how little the difference I make after getting all things to make me stronger

21 hours ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

Well not really. You can kill them, but setting off an alarm then just running away for more soldiers as fast as possible, meanwhile your probably preoccupied with the ones still fighting you.

Preoccupied? Only if you're a new player with little to no upgrades. Once you get enough power you're not going to be preoccupied with those fighting you. You're just wiping them out and the one setting off an alarm will be dead before that one enemy can run 100 meters away from you

21 hours ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

”Provided they aren’t killed in 1 bullet” so give them ways to survive without just increasing durability.

With how we can AoE the crap out of the map, give them ways to survive? You tell me, how do you survive against someone who ignore if you're behind a cover or not and will just spread death around you? Nerf us to the ground?

21 hours ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

You find it fun to be brain dead, playing a game but not using it for the reason it was created?

The reason it was created? A space ninja doing genocide without breaking a sweat, I find it fun being able to do it after going home from work, not stressed out trying to not get hit nor keeping my health high enough to survive

21 hours ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

You have your own way of fun fine, I’m talking about people who prefer to fight enemies who AREN’T statues that die in a nanosecond.

And potentially ruining the fun of those who like to kill enemies in a nanosecond?

18 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

Solve both by making enemies resistant to warframe abilities, especially "specialist" types.

Seeing how enemies being resistant or immune to warframe abilities are dismissed as "cheap", surely the community will accept you with smiles

18 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

Nullify their powers or augment themselves to be stronger against it, similar to what the Sentients have been doing lately with gaining diminishing returns from you.

Blast them with pure void energy from operator, they're now back to weak again

18 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

I've been mulling over the idea in my head about applying random modifiers in endless missions every round, inspired by Mass Effect 3's multiplayer, Defection, and Disruption. First five minutes of survival is normal, next round is "Lights Out!" where the mission goes pitch black, the music stops, the minimap gets scrambled, and the only things that emit light is gunfire and abilities, so you've gotta hack a console somewhere in the playable area to put everything back to normal. In the next round after, the lone Tenno operative has to cut through your area, starting in one dead end room and you have to escort them to another one they path out, success rewards extra life support and failure stops capsules from spawning for the remainder of the round. This would all be random.

The events would range from "beneficial" (ex. Allied factions arrive to assist for a time period), to "conditional" (ex. This side objective must be completed and you'll get rewarded or punished depending on if you were successful), to "malicious" (ex. "Lights Out!", faction elite enemies like bursas or manics spawning for the entire round, non-arena planet boss attacks and retreats before they can be killed, random syndicate death squads).

The challenge here would come from how often the game throws malicious events at the player. First round is Lights Out, then you're swarmed by Grineer Manics in the next, then you gotta babysit a traveling operative, then a disruption field hits and you can only use one randomly selected weapon, etc.

In the end it's still killing things, with random modifiers slapped, basically what other games do and I'm sure you know how people react to it. Not to mention the escort part, you know how popular defection is

17 hours ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

Also, every frame has an archetype right? So are you saying that specialists are set in a certain map (like for example, Defense, healing, and nuke specialists are spawnable on the map but no others)? Because otherwise, different specialists can spawn to match the respective player (like for example, if you have a defensive, healing, and offensive in a squad, the set specialists that spawn will change according to the squad? 

Yeah, no. You can take multiple roles in one Tenno. Such as Nezha, being able to CC, heal, offensive, tank, support in one go. How do you categorize each warframe into a role? Keep in mind warframe is not your basic mainstream game with one set role. You can become all class in one character

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16 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Yeah, no. You can take multiple roles in one Tenno. Such as Nezha, being able to CC, heal, offensive, tank, support in one go. How do you categorize each warframe into a role? Keep in mind warframe is not your basic mainstream game with one set role. You can become all class in one character

Read my message before that message properly before saying that. 
 

 

16 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

With how we can AoE the crap out of the map, give them ways to survive? You tell me, how do you survive against someone who ignore if you're behind a cover or not and will just spread death around you? Nerf us to the ground?

Use your brain? Don’t stand still? Aim properly? Git more abilities?
 

25 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And potentially ruining the fun of those who like to kill enemies in a nanosecond?

What’s the point in killing an enemy in a nanosecond? What benefits do you get other than removing an enemy. Explain please? Because I don’t seem to get it 😐

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On 2021-09-17 at 1:20 PM, Lutesque said:
On 2021-09-17 at 12:24 PM, ShortCat said:

You said it yourself that you cannot comprehend why an enemy should have resistance agaisnt fire, or bullets, or push mechanics.

I'm pretty sure I didn't say that. 😐 

Then what are you talking about here?

On 2021-09-14 at 1:50 AM, Lutesque said:

My issue with the "Nature Enemies are Weak To Fire" type of design is with how Incredibly Abstract it is.... Naturally developers are aware of this so rather than trying make the interaction more "Meaningful"... They basically just make it significantly more obscure....

 

On 2021-09-17 at 1:20 PM, Lutesque said:

Depends on the Game... Some games let you change them on the fly and others don't...

We were directly reffering to initial idea where you cannot change it. The inital example was D&D and you cannot change your build there. "But other games..." what's with them? Differnt game, different machenic, different design, different intent. Stay on the point and don't digress.

On 2021-09-17 at 1:20 PM, Lutesque said:

The point is... Why ?

I answered it in my first response.

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25 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

Then what are you talking about here?

 

27 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

We were directly reffering to initial idea where you cannot change it. The inital example was D&D and you cannot change your build there. "But other games..." what's with them? Differnt game, different machenic, different design, different intent. Stay on the point and don't digress

Yeah... Aaaaand ? 

28 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

I answered it in my first response.

And I pointed out how lazy it was.... Multiple Times infact....

My guess is you just simply don't know that there is a much much better way to Differentiate Damage Types in which case you're just not going to be able to see what's wrong with this Approach until you do...

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This argument has existed in every loot drop game since time immemorial. The simple fact remains that this is a looter shooter. We grind for resources. We grind for weapons. We grind to make our characters stronger.

 

In this scenario, this type of game, the end goal is to become efficient at dispatching the enemies/mission to either farm or clear as fast as possible. This is backed up by the ABYSMALLY LOW drop rates of so many things in Warframe that I've lost count.

 

Dragging out the nerf bat should not be the first reaction. If Viral+Slash is so good, why not look at why it's so good? The answer is synergy. They work well together. So why not buff other combos to work together like Viral+Slash to create more diversity. Things should be buffed UPWARDS towards the efficient ways, not the efficient ways nerfed DOWN into the ground. Especially because, nerfing down is just going to make everyone find the next most efficient method.

 

This doesn't mean that I'm against difficulty being added in. Elite mobs, packs that offer different resistances, etc... They all sound like great ideas to me. But... why, exactly? DE would need to make spongier, harder enemies worth it. Just adding something for the sake of difficulty to a speed based horde mode looter shooter that doesn't offer meaningful rewards for time invested, will just result in players avoiding nodes that have those particular enemies.  I *do* want more difficult content, but I also want the rewards for that content to reflect the time I've put into the game and make it worth doing.

 

For example, the only reason I do any Steel Path at all, is for essence. The bonuses offered there are laughable at best for the effort. +100% mod drop chance? Yeah, that'd be cool... if it only increased the chances for the better mods and reduced the things we all have billions of. Why isn't it +100% rare mod drop chance instead? Why not +100% drop chance to rare resources? Most of those things are already only between 1%-10% drops. Giving it a double boost to 2-20% isn't unreasonable at all. Just filter out the garbage for Steel Path and suddenly it becomes more lucrative.

 

Players need incentive to do content. I will guarantee you if DE adds "harder" enemies in (Completely new units like was suggested), if they don't offer meaningful rewards, the nodes they spawn on will just be ignored. Or, alternatively, people will figure out how to either efficiently dispatch them instantly like every other mob, or how to cheese them (Like Acolytes), and then the whole point of them goes out the window.

 

Acolytes are a great example of this. On paper, they are basically these countering "elite" units. They have their own powers, counter your own stuff, are tanky, etc... Until people learned all the various ways to send them packing within 3 seconds. Now they are just steel essence dispensers.

 

TLDR: Don't nerf things down, buff other stuff upwards. I'm all for adding more difficulty to the game, but make that difficulty worth the time investment.

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32 minutes ago, x570Belmont said:

This argument has existed in every loot drop game since time immemorial. The simple fact remains that this is a looter shooter. We grind for resources. We grind for weapons. We grind to make our characters stronger.

 

In this scenario, this type of game, the end goal is to become efficient at dispatching the enemies/mission to either farm or clear as fast as possible. This is backed up by the ABYSMALLY LOW drop rates of so many things in Warframe that I've lost count.

 

Dragging out the nerf bat should not be the first reaction. If Viral+Slash is so good, why not look at why it's so good? The answer is synergy. They work well together. So why not buff other combos to work together like Viral+Slash to create more diversity. Things should be buffed UPWARDS towards the efficient ways, not the efficient ways nerfed DOWN into the ground. Especially because, nerfing down is just going to make everyone find the next most efficient method.

 

This doesn't mean that I'm against difficulty being added in. Elite mobs, packs that offer different resistances, etc... They all sound like great ideas to me. But... why, exactly? DE would need to make spongier, harder enemies worth it. Just adding something for the sake of difficulty to a speed based horde mode looter shooter that doesn't offer meaningful rewards for time invested, will just result in players avoiding nodes that have those particular enemies.  I *do* want more difficult content, but I also want the rewards for that content to reflect the time I've put into the game and make it worth doing.

 

For example, the only reason I do any Steel Path at all, is for essence. The bonuses offered there are laughable at best for the effort. +100% mod drop chance? Yeah, that'd be cool... if it only increased the chances for the better mods and reduced the things we all have billions of. Why isn't it +100% rare mod drop chance instead? Why not +100% drop chance to rare resources? Most of those things are already only between 1%-10% drops. Giving it a double boost to 2-20% isn't unreasonable at all. Just filter out the garbage for Steel Path and suddenly it becomes more lucrative.

 

Players need incentive to do content. I will guarantee you if DE adds "harder" enemies in (Completely new units like was suggested), if they don't offer meaningful rewards, the nodes they spawn on will just be ignored. Or, alternatively, people will figure out how to either efficiently dispatch them instantly like every other mob, or how to cheese them (Like Acolytes), and then the whole point of them goes out the window.

 

Acolytes are a great example of this. On paper, they are basically these countering "elite" units. They have their own powers, counter your own stuff, are tanky, etc... Until people learned all the various ways to send them packing within 3 seconds. Now they are just steel essence dispensers.

 

TLDR: Don't nerf things down, buff other stuff upwards. I'm all for adding more difficulty to the game, but make that difficulty worth the time investment.

This all the way.

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Viral+HM isn't the problem but corrosive+heat being outclassed for the absurd armor scaling in steel path. Gas/blast probably need a change and all infested should be immune to viral procs. 

Just don't tell DE about viral slash trumna + a magnetic kuva nukor. 

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

That's what usually happen on other games where the "endgame" consists of absurdly scaled enemies to make roles important. You bring DPS, tank, support (buff/debuff), healer and mage in your team or don't bother

This can be really seen in how CC frames feel redundant on the base star chart, because their core design philosophy is wasted on missions where a slight breeze can kill the enemies. Once you enter Steel path, the CC frames really can come into their own and are core parts of the team composition.

 

This though is the one reason why I won't bash on Steel Path too hard, because inflating the stats of enemies, in this particular case, allows the core designs of the various warframes to finally shine. Abilities that go totally unused on the base star chart get their time in the spotlight.  Though where it does hit hard, is the survivability department. Though there are various ways to combat that issue.

 

For example, bring so much CC that you never get hit. Or work lifesteal into a weapon. Helminth on a new ability to replace one of the more useless ones in a warframe's kit. Steel path becomes the playground in which veterans and mid-tier players can really let creativity flow and come up with some really fun builds.

 

My only issue with it, is the drops. Other than essence, the added "difficulty' doesn't really scale the rewards at all. At least in my opinion. Of course, others are free to disagree on that point.

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3 hours ago, x570Belmont said:

For example, bring so much CC that you never get hit. Or work lifesteal into a weapon. Helminth on a new ability to replace one of the more useless ones in a warframe's kit. Steel path becomes the playground in which veterans and mid-tier players can really let creativity flow and come up with some really fun builds.

How… does this work? Aren’t we already forced into certain mods just to keep up? Even on Star Chart we have to equip either a Serration or Element just to fight levels 40s, and depending on the mission we’ll need at least a Vigor to survive level 80s, maybe level 60s (Ganymede on Jupiter can need it at level 30-something, but that’s because there are just so many spawns that keep shooting while focus is on the Demolyst). As we climb higher our combination options get smaller, and Steel Path requires some guaranteed combinations. You even say that we need to helminth off certain abilities, which seems additionally restrictive

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
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9 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

How… does this work? Aren’t we already forced into certain mods just to keep up? Even on Star Chart we have to equip either a Serration or Element just to fight levels 40s, and depending on the mission we’ll need at least a Vigor to survive level 80s, maybe level 60s. As we climb higher our combination options get smaller, and Steel Path requires some guaranteed combinations

Well, I can give you one example that I use. I paired Equilibrium on Protea with Sevagoth's Gloom Helminth'ed into her 4. I simply built for enough power strength, around 160, and use the Growing Power aura and her passive to hit the strength requirement to cast a max strength Gloom. Equilibrium makes it so I never run out of energy via her dispenser, when paired with Synth Fiber on a companion since at full health you can still pick up the health orbs, making them energy. Such a huge stream of energy coming in makes the Gloom drain negligible. Max strength Gloom makes everything sort of just... a non issue. Nothing moves. Her turrets scale in damage to enemy level so no matter what weapons you bring, you can still kill the enemies just fine.

 

In terms of survivability from stray shots coming from outside the Gloom, which only happens in REALLY big rooms where there is enough distance and LOS visibility for an enemy to see me, I just use Protea's grenade fans to constantly refresh my shields.

 

In terms of weapons, with that set up since everything is sort of frozen in place, I normally just throw my volatile rebound Xoris build at them, and watch it bounce around like a pinball machine.

 

Yes, certain mod combinations ARE optimal. Viral/Slash is always going to be good because of how well it synergizes together, but it's not the only way or method to deal and cope. You can strip enemy armor and CC things. Utilize abilities that scale with enemy level. Get creative!

Edited by x570Belmont
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1 minute ago, x570Belmont said:

Yes, certain mod combinations ARE optimal. Viral/Slash is always going to be good because of how well it synergizes together, but it's not the only way or method to deal and cope. You can strip enemy armor and CC things. Utilize abilities that scale with enemy level. Get creative!

Yeah I’ll get creative, working with a limited palette, but my palette of options is drastically reduced overall. I just now got my Lato up to killing level 100s after finding the much-elusive Barrel Diffusion, but I can’t easily replace one of the crucial damage mods with Punch-through (I’m fine with that; I just do so in lower-level areas where I don’t need that Hornet Strike). SP though? That’s not one I can even take my Lato to in the first place.

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1 minute ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Yeah I’ll get creative, working with a limited palette, but my palette of options is drastically reduced overall. I just now got my Lato up to killing level 100s after finding the much-elusive Barrel Diffusion, but I can’t easily replace one of the crucial damage mods with Punch-through (I’m fine with that; I just do so in lower-level areas where I don’t need that Hornet Strike). SP though? That’s not one I can even take my Lato to in the first place.

The "standard flair" mods issue is another power creep problem entirely, I'll agree with you there. Pretty much every weapon needs +dmg (Either from the normal mod source or the gun arcane), + element, + multishot, + crit chance and +crit damage along with + status. There's a little unique wiggle room here and there, but the core of the builds have gone unchanged and unmessed with for years.

 

There's a few solutions to this that DE can do. I've always been in favor of making these must-have mods 'baked in' to the weapons themselves. Let the "core" mods have their own slots basically, or give each weapon rank up features internally for these stats. Granted, the second would mean that instant of maxing one mod, you'd have to max each stat for every individual weapon, so that'd be an issue. I favor the side of having "core" slots.

Basically, let each weapon have 4 "core" mod slots that has its own capacity factor, and then 6 "utility/option" slots. This would of course be increasing the number of mod slots on a weapon from 8 to 10, but with how bad mod space is right now, I think we're overdue for additional slots. 

 

Of course, this STILL won't change people finding the optimal way to mod something for its performance. It just pushes the ceiling higher and give another power ceiling. 

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