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Looks like it's time to tone down slash and viral


TheArmchairThinker
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44 minutes ago, x570Belmont said:

The "standard flair" mods issue is another power creep problem entirely, I'll agree with you there. Pretty much every weapon needs +dmg (Either from the normal mod source or the gun arcane), + element, + multishot, + crit chance and +crit damage along with + status. There's a little unique wiggle room here and there, but the core of the builds have gone unchanged and unmessed with for years.

 

There's a few solutions to this that DE can do. I've always been in favor of making these must-have mods 'baked in' to the weapons themselves. Let the "core" mods have their own slots basically, or give each weapon rank up features internally for these stats. Granted, the second would mean that instant of maxing one mod, you'd have to max each stat for every individual weapon, so that'd be an issue. I favor the side of having "core" slots.

Basically, let each weapon have 4 "core" mod slots that has its own capacity factor, and then 6 "utility/option" slots. This would of course be increasing the number of mod slots on a weapon from 8 to 10, but with how bad mod space is right now, I think we're overdue for additional slots. 

 

Of course, this STILL won't change people finding the optimal way to mod something for its performance. It just pushes the ceiling higher and give another power ceiling. 

Not going to lie; your suggestion makes it easier to get bored as far as I’m concerned.

If I’m looking for a fight, I gladly replace that “Standard Flair” with more interesting mods like Punch-through or fire rate when possible (if not just leaving the slot blank because I don’t need the help on damage). 🤔 Although elements can be fun; juggling different weapons for different resistances adds interest

This is kind of why I don’t bother with SP except to test some builds. There’s too much restriction on what I can combine. Your builds sound interesting, but if it was in my hands, that Xoris could fit a different mod than Pressure Point (or whatever you have equipped), and that Warframe could replace the boring survival mods with something else, and it may find use outside of Steel Path; testing will be required to see how far it can get (assuming you have survival mods; maybe it finds its best use in SP already without the change)

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On 2021-09-13 at 4:01 AM, TheArmchairThinker said:

Seeing how people start saying they take down steel path sentients in one shot using Glaive Prime, I think it's really time to tone down slash and viral.

Viral combined with slash makes a ridiculous amount of DoT where armor ignoring damage ticks with viral multiplier makes even grineer heavy armor pointless. I think you can tone down viral damage increase to 50% - 100% on 10 stacks, making them strong enough and doesn't come out over the rest of the elements.

For slash itself, you can change the bleed damage tick to deal slash damage instead of true damage, Making slash still a viable element for bare flesh and not making armor irrelevant.

As far as the status bleed goes, I like the idea of players having a tool to bypass armor in the game - it gives more variety: In concept, it gives the choice to either reduce, strip, or bypass armor, but in practice against high level armored enemies, the health/armor scaling balance and associated damage reduction is so out of balance that armor reduction just becomes ineffective in comparison to bypassing or stripping it. I'd prefer to see the health- and armor balance be done properly, where all three tools are viable, instead of seeing Bleed simply not be viable anymore and leaving us just one tool - armor stripping.

Virus... that seems too strong in its current form. again given the other mechanics in the game relating to armor scaling, armor stripping or armor bypassing and just overall damage output. Not sure if the suggested 50% - 100% is a bit too much of a nerf. Personally I would prefer to see how it fares with a 50% effectiveness (so 50% - 162.5%) and/or a time-based effectiveness akin to heat's armor reduction, where it stacks to max over something like 5 seconds, to balance faster, weaker attacks vs slower, stronger attacks a bit more.

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3 hours ago, Silligoose said:

As far as the status bleed goes, I like the idea of players having a tool to bypass armor in the game - it gives more variety: In concept, it gives the choice to either reduce, strip, or bypass armor, but in practice against high level armored enemies, the health/armor scaling balance and associated damage reduction is so out of balance that armor reduction just becomes ineffective in comparison to bypassing or stripping it. I'd prefer to see the health- and armor balance be done properly, where all three tools are viable, instead of seeing Bleed simply not be viable anymore and leaving us just one tool - armor stripping.

If everyone can bypass armor with bleed, DPS will be the only thing brought to boost the bleed and not a single damage type should be allowed to bypass armor or it's just bypass and nothing else matters.

Health and armor scaling balance? That's a load of crap, seeing how many games out there have absurd amount of health and armor/defense to make you go there with a whole team consists of DPS, healer, support and mage but no one bats an eye on that as you said

4 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Enemies that live long enough to allow for mechanics to actually be employed in a game by said enemy and/or their allies are part of what makes a game more of a challenge. "Bullet sponge" is the go-to term too often encountered in various games when enemies don't die as soon as a player sneezes at them, regardless of how their durability ties in with the difficulty, the mechanics or where said enemy lies within the game. This seems especially true in Warframe.

I did not find the Ropalolyst to be overly tanky given what type of enemy it is in the game and given that I didn't go in with some poorly modded pea-shooter.

So yes, by not allowing slash to bypass armor, you get durable enemies that requiring you to bring your best guns instead of poorly modded peashooter.

Other options, you bring a teammate to debuff enemies and support DPS damage output or bring anything to destroy armor to go solo. There you go, bigger importance for debuff and support role

On 2021-09-04 at 10:58 PM, Silligoose said:

In a word, yes. For some general missions, or at least some future raids, yes, I do. I would like to see more variety at end-game in terms of strategy and team composition than we have now, which is predominantly only one thing: "shoot it if it moves, hell shoot it if it doesn't.". Buffs don't matter, debuffs don't matter, support doesn't matter, cc doesn't matter.

Thinking back on when I was early game, or even mid game, I was happy to see frames like Oberon, Trinity, Nezha, Rhino, Banshee, Limbo, Revenant etc etc as teammates, since they helped with survivability in the form of healing, damage mitigation, status defense, energy filling, cc or damage buffs. Sometimes a combination of these. Now it is very different... if you are end-game, in the vast majority of missions, who cares which frames players bring, which buffs/debuffs teammates bring? None of it is needed. None of it matters. A team isn't actually even needed - as one gets closer and closer to end-game, teamplay plays less and less of a factor. Seems the opposite to what usually happens in co-op team games, or what should happen in in co-op games - usually the better the teamplay, the further you get.

There are precious few times when I see late-game players actually look for a team because they are in actual need of teammates for their damage buffs/debuffs or cc in a late-game mission and in all of those cases it is simply because they place artificial parameters on themselves, usually in the form of time.

Isn't this what you want? It's not obtainable if we're still able to one man army everything so remove the capability to bypass armor, limit the damage buff abilities, tone down all damage reduction and you'll see how sortie enemies become very overwhelming solo, even more in SP

3 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Virus... that seems too strong in its current form. again given the other mechanics in the game relating to armor scaling, armor stripping or armor bypassing and just overall damage output. Not sure if the suggested 50% - 100% is a bit too much of a nerf. Personally I would prefer to see how it fares with a 50% effectiveness (so 50% - 162.5%) and/or a time-based effectiveness akin to heat's armor reduction, where it stacks to max over something like 5 seconds, to balance faster, weaker attacks vs slower, stronger attacks a bit more.

No, nothing is "too much of a nerf" if you want things to not be "too easy"

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5 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

No, nothing is "too much of a nerf" if you want things to not be "too easy"

 

This is the one point I'll respectfully disagree on, because Warframe's core gameplay loop is a horde based looter shooter with an emphasis on gathering resources. If you nerf things to the point where missions take too long to run, you kill your population because the drop rates are so low across the board for most desirable things, that no one would want to put in the time.

There has to be a balance between efficiency at dispatching enemies vs. the overall "overpowered" feeling of some combinations. Again, people gravitate towards these "meta" set ups because they offer the fastest route to the rewards. The rewards being the drops. 

 

Nerf enough things to bring combat to a complete slog of a battle every single time, and I 100% guarantee you the player population will dwindle to next to nil because the rewards aren't worth the time investment.

 

Again, you may have a different view, and that's fine, but that's just my take on it.

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6 minutes ago, x570Belmont said:

This is the one point I'll respectfully disagree on, because Warframe's core gameplay loop is a horde based looter shooter with an emphasis on gathering resources. If you nerf things to the point where missions take too long to run, you kill your population because the drop rates are so low across the board for most desirable things, that no one would want to put in the time.

Apparently many here wants it, having to pay attention against 20+ enemies at the same time and not able to skip the fight by blitzing with bullet jumping and gliding

7 minutes ago, x570Belmont said:

There has to be a balance between efficiency at dispatching enemies vs. the overall "overpowered" feeling of some combinations. Again, people gravitate towards these "meta" set ups because they offer the fastest route to the rewards. The rewards being the drops. 

If you only care for the drop as reward and not the gameplay itself. These people are called 'loot whores' by a community where they only come for the drop

8 minutes ago, x570Belmont said:

Nerf enough things to bring combat to a complete slog of a battle every single time, and I 100% guarantee you the player population will dwindle to next to nil because the rewards aren't worth the time investment.

See if those who want this game to be balanced enjoy that slog, because they're the one who want it. They got to eat their words if they end up not enjoying it

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2 hours ago, x570Belmont said:

 

This is the one point I'll respectfully disagree on, because Warframe's core gameplay loop is a horde based looter shooter with an emphasis on gathering resources. If you nerf things to the point where missions take too long to run, you kill your population because the drop rates are so low across the board for most desirable things, that no one would want to put in the time.

There has to be a balance between efficiency at dispatching enemies vs. the overall "overpowered" feeling of some combinations. Again, people gravitate towards these "meta" set ups because they offer the fastest route to the rewards. The rewards being the drops. 

 

Nerf enough things to bring combat to a complete slog of a battle every single time, and I 100% guarantee you the player population will dwindle to next to nil because the rewards aren't worth the time investment.

 

Again, you may have a different view, and that's fine, but that's just my take on it.

Even without the nerfs, we put in 1 hour of time and effort and barely get anything, and I just leave because I think of more things I could do with better rewards.

2 hours ago, x570Belmont said:

There has to be a balance between efficiency at dispatching enemies vs. the overall "overpowered" feeling of some combinations. Again, people gravitate towards these "meta" set ups because they offer the fastest route to the rewards. The rewards being the drops. 

Exactly!

 

 

2 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Apparently many here wants it, having to pay attention against 20+ enemies at the same time and not able to skip the fight by blitzing with bullet jumping and gliding

If you only care for the drop as reward and not the gameplay itself. These people are called 'loot whores' by a community where they only come for the drop

See if those who want this game to be balanced enjoy that slog, because they're the one who want it. They got to eat their words if they end up not enjoying it

The middle part is correct. You shouldn’t play the game just for the reward, play it for the gameplay as well or there’s no point.

First part: Where’s the fun in that? Pay attention to 20+ enemies and just kill them. Is it that hard?

Third part: I will enjoy it. Everything being unbalanced is actually the worse part of this game and hence so many nerfs. Everything’s trying to be balanced in the wrong direction (in my opinion).

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8 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

If everyone can bypass armor with bleed, DPS will be the only thing brought to boost the bleed and not a single damage type should be allowed to bypass armor or it's just bypass and nothing else matters.

Health and armor scaling balance? That's a load of crap, seeing how many games out there have absurd amount of health and armor/defense to make you go there with a whole team consists of DPS, healer, support and mage but no one bats an eye on that as you said

It depends on how the balance is set and the mechanics at play. The problem we currently have vs armor is how high armor and associated damage reduction scales, leading to upfront damage vs armor falling extremely far behind True Damage and this remains true against high level armored enemies even when stripped of 90% of their armor. That is what needs to be balanced better. Currently the hierarchy vs armor in terms of player damage output is: Strip Armour > Bypass Armor > Reduce armor by 90%. Get the balance switched where the hierarchy becomes: Strip Armor > Reduce Armor (depending on the amount of armor stripped) > Bypass Armor paired with better enemy overall durability and players have more viable options against armored enemy units. Eventually minmax will gravitate to a specific method, but the goal of proper balance should be for that specific method to not completely outshine the other two methods. 

In terms of factions and general units, I would still prefer those three tools to be viable, as opposed only one tool (complete armor stripping) being viable.

Enemies need to be more durable in a "hard mode" in Warframe. Other games have different balances within their classes when compared to Warframe and that balance discussion is beyond the scope of the topic regarding Bleed damage, but I wouldn't mind seeing a difficulty setting in which solo play is possible, but far harder than teamplay, due to mechanics beyond just enemy durability, though enemy durability does play a part in it.

 

8 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

So yes, by not allowing slash to bypass armor, you get durable enemies that requiring you to bring your best guns instead of poorly modded peashooter.

Other options, you bring a teammate to debuff enemies and support DPS damage output or bring anything to destroy armor to go solo. There you go, bigger importance for debuff and support role

Personally I would be a massive fan of ally abilities, support, buffs and debuffs being more valued at late-game. The problem with not allowing Bleed to bypass armor with the current game, current armor scaling and associated damage reduction is only one real debuff will matter vs armored units: Complete armor stripping. On the other hand, if Bleed could still bypass, but be less effective than complete armor stripping or armor reduction (to a degree based on the amount of armor stripped), it is still a viable choice and ally buffs and debuffs would be of greater importance.

I agree it is a way to make enemies more durable, which is needed, but I feel there are better ways.

8 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Isn't this what you want? It's not obtainable if we're still able to one man army everything so remove the capability to bypass armor, limit the damage buff abilities, tone down all damage reduction and you'll see how sortie enemies become very overwhelming solo, even more in SP

I agree the things I mentioned are not obtainable when we are one-man armies, but we are one-man armies as a result of various mechanics, not just damage output. Buffing certain abilities in terms of damage output for end-game content is certainly on my mind regarding a difficulty setting with more durable enemies, as is damage reduction balance, as is enemy damage output, as is effective immortality of Warframes, as is the ability to almost constantly stunlock enemies. The list goes on, but it would veer away from the topic at hand. I would love "hard mode" missions that are only bearably passable by 10 - 20% of players solo as a result of the challenge, even if that means I can't do it due to lack of skill.

8 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

No, nothing is "too much of a nerf" if you want things to not be "too easy"

You have to look beyond just wanting a challenge. In proper balance, the challenge vs a faction can be met with a variety of tools, not just one. Nerfing one of the tools too much makes it obsolete, decreasing variety, pigeon-holing players against an entire faction to too great an extent. I'd like to look at armored enemies and think " I could bypass it and be effective, I could reduce it and be more effective or I could strip it and be a more effective", instead of saying "I can't bypass it, I can reduce it and be ineffective or I can strip it and be effective. Guess I can only go one route vs all armored enemies".

I don't mind lesser tools being viable in very specific situations that much, but only having armor stripping being viable against all armored units seems too one-dimensional to me. That is my entire side of the debate: Yes I'd like to see enemies be more durable in general , but I would like for players to have various viable tools available to deal with those enemies, instead of only one tool against an entire faction and all other armored units.

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19 hours ago, Silligoose said:

It depends on how the balance is set and the mechanics at play. The problem we currently have vs armor is how high armor and associated damage reduction scales, leading to upfront damage vs armor falling extremely far behind True Damage and this remains true against high level armored enemies even when stripped of 90% of their armor. That is what needs to be balanced better. Currently the hierarchy vs armor in terms of player damage output is: Strip Armour > Bypass Armor > Reduce armor by 90%. Get the balance switched where the hierarchy becomes: Strip Armor > Reduce Armor (depending on the amount of armor stripped) > Bypass Armor paired with better enemy overall durability and players have more viable options against armored enemy units. Eventually minmax will gravitate to a specific method, but the goal of proper balance should be for that specific method to not completely outshine the other two methods. 

In terms of factions and general units, I would still prefer those three tools to be viable, as opposed only one tool (complete armor stripping) being viable.

Enemies need to be more durable in a "hard mode" in Warframe. Other games have different balances within their classes when compared to Warframe and that balance discussion is beyond the scope of the topic regarding Bleed damage, but I wouldn't mind seeing a difficulty setting in which solo play is possible, but far harder than teamplay, due to mechanics beyond just enemy durability, though enemy durability does play a part in it.

Bypassing armor is almost never a thing, at best you're either stripping or reducing armor to make enemies softer to beat. Stripping armor completely is not always beneficial, as you lose the 75% bonus damage using element the armor weak against, making them taking only 50% more damage if you happen to have element against the health type.

Enemies being more durable doesn't mean a thing if you can wreck all things with viral + damage boost + enemy debuff to make your damage output sky high. This means more nerfing beyond viral and slash.

19 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Personally I would be a massive fan of ally abilities, support, buffs and debuffs being more valued at late-game. The problem with not allowing Bleed to bypass armor with the current game, current armor scaling and associated damage reduction is only one real debuff will matter vs armored units: Complete armor stripping. On the other hand, if Bleed could still bypass, but be less effective than complete armor stripping or armor reduction (to a degree based on the amount of armor stripped), it is still a viable choice and ally buffs and debuffs would be of greater importance.

I agree it is a way to make enemies more durable, which is needed, but I feel there are better ways.

If bleed still able to bypass armor, no other role important other than DPS such as chroma to boost the bleed damage per tick, going back to square one where anything that doesn't able to boost damage being left behind so armor bypass from bleed needs to be removed and only put on finishers.

19 hours ago, Silligoose said:

I agree the things I mentioned are not obtainable when we are one-man armies, but we are one-man armies as a result of various mechanics, not just damage output. Buffing certain abilities in terms of damage output for end-game content is certainly on my mind regarding a difficulty setting with more durable enemies, as is damage reduction balance, as is enemy damage output, as is effective immortality of Warframes, as is the ability to almost constantly stunlock enemies. The list goes on, but it would veer away from the topic at hand. I would love "hard mode" missions that are only bearably passable by 10 - 20% of players solo as a result of the challenge, even if that means I can't do it due to lack of skill.

Like I said, more nerfs beyond slash and viral, and pray you're not hunted down by someone after this. Someone got a bounty on his head over a meme group so I'm not surprised if someone got a bounty for "ruining the fun in warframe".

19 hours ago, Silligoose said:

You have to look beyond just wanting a challenge. In proper balance, the challenge vs a faction can be met with a variety of tools, not just one. Nerfing one of the tools too much makes it obsolete, decreasing variety, pigeon-holing players against an entire faction to too great an extent. I'd like to look at armored enemies and think " I could bypass it and be effective, I could reduce it and be more effective or I could strip it and be a more effective", instead of saying "I can't bypass it, I can reduce it and be ineffective or I can strip it and be effective. Guess I can only go one route vs all armored enemies".

I don't mind lesser tools being viable in very specific situations that much, but only having armor stripping being viable against all armored units seems too one-dimensional to me. That is my entire side of the debate: Yes I'd like to see enemies be more durable in general , but I would like for players to have various viable tools available to deal with those enemies, instead of only one tool against an entire faction and all other armored units.

Challenge itself is already pigeon-holing players by decreasing variety until only gears that able to delete high level enemies quickly left as the choices. The so-called challenge or high level is almost never about choices, it's only META to finish in a reasonable manner or you will spend a lot of time just to finish it and it's the most one-dimensional part of any game.

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47 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Bypassing armor is almost never a thing, at best you're either stripping or reducing armor to make enemies softer to beat. Stripping armor completely is not always beneficial, as you lose the 75% bonus damage using element the armor weak against, making them taking only 50% more damage if you happen to have element against the health type.

Enemies being more durable doesn't mean a thing if you can wreck all things with viral + damage boost + enemy debuff to make your damage output sky high. This means more nerfing beyond viral and slash.

You discussed Steel Path in your OP. I hope you aren't thinking of some normal-mode enemies in your replies.

Bleed (the name for slash procs) bypasses armor. Yes it is a thing vs high level armored units. Why would you even create this thread if you think bypassing armor is "almost never a thing"?

The damage output from damage bonuses + armor reduction falls pretty well below the damage output from armor stripping and very far below armor stripping in terms of damage output efficiency.

The more durable enemies become, the more important debuffs, buffs, appropriate elements, procs etc become. That's the point to having them be more durable. Once they are, good balance would ensure a variety in tools to take them down.

1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

If bleed still able to bypass armor, no other role important other than DPS such as chroma to boost the bleed damage per tick, going back to square one where anything that doesn't able to boost damage being left behind so armor bypass from bleed needs to be removed and only put on finishers.

Take a way Bleed bypassing armor and players will simply go to the only viable option vs high level armored enemies: Armor Stripping. Your suggestion takes away a tool and makes for less varied gameplay. Simple as that. 

1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Like I said, more nerfs beyond slash and viral, and pray you're not hunted down by someone after this. Someone got a bounty on his head over a meme group so I'm not surprised if someone got a bounty for "ruining the fun in warframe".

"Hard mode" and associated modifiers are optional. They'd choose to ruin their own fun.

1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Challenge itself is already pigeon-holing players by decreasing variety until only gears that able to delete high level enemies quickly left as the choices. The so-called challenge or high level is almost never about choices, it's only META to finish in a reasonable manner or you will spend a lot of time just to finish it and it's the most one-dimensional part of any game.

Your suggestion in the change to Bleed would cause the loss in variety earlier on. There are better ways.

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On 2021-09-22 at 6:26 AM, Silligoose said:

Take a way Bleed bypassing armor and players will simply go to the only viable option vs high level armored enemies: Armor Stripping. Your suggestion takes away a tool and makes for less varied gameplay. Simple as that. 

Exactly. This is what I don't get about this argument. It goes beyond the Viral+Slash. Players are just going to continue moving to the next best thing. Should this nerf mentality continue until we have about as much power as a wet noodle? There's no fun left in the game at that point.

 

The claim of "the vast majority of people wanting 'harder' content" I guarantee you will be overshadowed by the majority of the playerbase leaving if the nerfs went down like that, one nerf after another after another until we have as much power as a newborn kitten. There's no balance in constantly nerfing everything.

 

Balance adjustments are one thing. Tweaking something slightly down while buffing other things up is part of game balance. Nerfing things into oblivion doesn't work. Like Silligoose said, it's just going to make everyone move on to the next best option.

 

On 2021-09-22 at 6:26 AM, Silligoose said:

You discussed Steel Path in your OP. I hope you aren't thinking of some normal-mode enemies in your replies.

 

I hope this discussion isn't about normal mode either. Anything on the normal star chart dies to a soft breeze blown in its direction.

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2 hours ago, x570Belmont said:

I hope this discussion isn't about normal mode either. Anything on the normal star chart dies to a soft breeze blown in its direction.

We can't count Steel Path for anything in these arguments. Not only has DE said Steel Path isn't an endgame, it doesn't provide nearly enough things to keep players engaged with it once you complete its star chart. Just because you like smashing your face against a brick wall for the same rewards as normal star chart and having limited access to other missions and activities and things, it doesn't mean most others do.

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8 hours ago, x570Belmont said:

Exactly. This is what I don't get about this argument. It goes beyond the Viral+Slash. Players are just going to continue moving to the next best thing. Should this nerf mentality continue until we have about as much power as a wet noodle? There's no fun left in the game at that point.

 

The claim of "the vast majority of people wanting 'harder' content" I guarantee you will be overshadowed by the majority of the playerbase leaving if the nerfs went down like that, one nerf after another after another until we have as much power as a newborn kitten. There's no balance in constantly nerfing everything.

 

Balance adjustments are one thing. Tweaking something slightly down while buffing other things up is part of game balance. Nerfing things into oblivion doesn't work. Like Silligoose said, it's just going to make everyone move on to the next best option.

 

 

I hope this discussion isn't about normal mode either. Anything on the normal star chart dies to a soft breeze blown in its direction.

^ This all the way. Nerfs don’t work, tweaks and balancing work.

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On 2021-09-22 at 5:26 PM, Silligoose said:

You discussed Steel Path in your OP. I hope you aren't thinking of some normal-mode enemies in your replies.

Bleed (the name for slash procs) bypasses armor. Yes it is a thing vs high level armored units. Why would you even create this thread if you think bypassing armor is "almost never a thing"?

The damage output from damage bonuses + armor reduction falls pretty well below the damage output from armor stripping and very far below armor stripping in terms of damage output efficiency.

The more durable enemies become, the more important debuffs, buffs, appropriate elements, procs etc become. That's the point to having them be more durable. Once they are, good balance would ensure a variety in tools to take them down.

Bypassing armor is almost never a thing in games. Warframe is one of the very few games that allows you bypass armor and probably the only game with so little restrictions and requirements. Most games require you to do something or equip something and it's still not a 100% bypass.

Durable enemies doesn't matter when they're bled to death, and other roles than DPS doesn't matter much when DPS itself can bypass armor and boost it to absurdity like max strength chroma on vex armor. You don't even need to debuff, just get to maximum buff number and see the damage tick finish the enemies even if the damage from the bullet itself is at 2 - 3 digit numbers so removing this cheese means opening ways for other tools

On 2021-09-22 at 5:26 PM, Silligoose said:

Take a way Bleed bypassing armor and players will simply go to the only viable option vs high level armored enemies: Armor Stripping. Your suggestion takes away a tool and makes for less varied gameplay. Simple as that. 

One cheese gone means armor stripping has bigger importance and more tools to achieve that compared to stacking slash. You have tools to strip armor from warframe to companions that aren't overshadowed by armor bypass from slash

On 2021-09-22 at 5:26 PM, Silligoose said:

"Hard mode" and associated modifiers are optional. They'd choose to ruin their own fun.

Seeing how things go and people keep asking DE to reward their efforts to clear SP, I'm not surprised people will find excuse to grind their soul out and complain like that one thread about grinding your soul away in plague star for forma

On 2021-09-22 at 5:26 PM, Silligoose said:

Your suggestion in the change to Bleed would cause the loss in variety earlier on. There are better ways.

Is it? Or will it make debuff more important than brute forcing armor with damage boost + bleed + viral?

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2 hours ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

^ This all the way. Nerfs don’t work, tweaks and balancing work.

Balancing means there's buff and nerf. And yes you said it

On 2021-09-17 at 8:33 AM, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

Still we need a bit of challenge or else we can just hit 1 button and be done with it.

If you're a god on your golden throne fighting mortals, what kind of "challenge" exists for you? Nerfs all the way to the point sortie 1 enemies are a massive struggle solo and you get your bit of challenge

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3 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Balancing means there's buff and nerf. And yes you said it

If you're a god on your golden throne fighting mortals, what kind of "challenge" exists for you? Nerfs all the way to the point sortie 1 enemies are a massive struggle solo and you get your bit of challenge

-_- There has to a balance. It’s needs to be not too hard that— omg I said this already. 

First of all we’re basically metal zombies piloted by kids.

second, where’s our golden throne?

Third of all, like the other guy said, nerf everything back to square 1 and there’ll only be a few thousand players out of hundreds of thousands or a million. Everybody, maybe including myself, will quit the game if everything gets way too hard.

Nerfing isn’t the only solution. You could also buff the enemies or buff the weak equipment instead of nerfing everything that’s strong until there’s nothing left on the S tier level.

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12 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Bypassing armor is almost never a thing in games. Warframe is one of the very few games that allows you bypass armor and probably the only game with so little restrictions and requirements. Most games require you to do something or equip something and it's still not a 100% bypass.

Yeah some other games have armor bypassing and just as in Warframe, you may need items to inflict it, whether it is called Pure Damage, or Penetrating Damage, or Magic Damage. Doesn't matter though. Most games don't have cars passing a ball. Do you think that matters at all with regards to the balance in Rocket League? No. It doesn't matter whether other games have the exact same mechanic or not. What matters is the balance within the game that has that mechanic.

12 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Durable enemies doesn't matter when they're bled to death, and other roles than DPS doesn't matter much when DPS itself can bypass armor and boost it to absurdity like max strength chroma on vex armor. You don't even need to debuff, just get to maximum buff number and see the damage tick finish the enemies even if the damage from the bullet itself is at 2 - 3 digit numbers so removing this cheese means opening ways for other tools

No role other than DPS matters when enemies die in an instant, Doesn't matter if it is from Bleed, or Burn, or upfront damage. Nevertheless, I'll bite: Let's take away Bleed bypassing armor.  What other tools are now available that have been opened up? These tools will now be competing with the king vs armor: Complete armor stripping. Here's what it does and how it effectively increases damage of a target that has been stripped of armor vs a target that still has all its armor:

In Steel Path the typical Grineer fodder, Elite Lancer, are encountered all over the place. At lvl 120 they have about 6586 armor due to SP modifiers, equating to 95.65% damage reduction (source Warframe wiki). I can strip that armor for an effective damage multiplier of around x22 with the push of a button, since that damage reduction is now 0%. Now I can smack them with a Heat or Slash for the multiplicative elemental upfront damage bonus giving an additional, multiplicative 25% damage bonus. Our damage multiplier goes from 22 to 22 x (1+Elemental Damage Bonus) - 22 x (1+0.25) = 27.5 I could do that, but I'm pretty sure you are going to pull out all the stops to try and compete, so I'll use Viral Elemental Damage, which gives a 75% damage bonus vs Cloned Flesh for an effective damage multiplier of 22 x 1.75 = 38.5. That is what your other methods are competing with: an effective  x22 multiplier just from armor stripping fodder and a x38.5 multiplier for upfront damage, compared to an enemy that did not have it's armor stripped or reduced. I'm not even counting how Viral or Slash or hear procs will increase that further. Just upfront damage.

Then we encounter Heavy Gunners every now and then. At level 120 on SP your Heavy Gunner has about 18464 armor, equating to 98.4% damage reduction (source Warframe Wiki). Strip that armor and I get an effective damage multiplier of 62.5 compared to 100% armor. Add the Viral elemental bonus and the effective damage multiplier becomes 2.5 x 1.75 = 109.37. One button to strip armor for the insane damage multiplier and one button for the attack with the optimal Damage Elemental Type. Again, this is an effective damage multipler for upfront damage when compared to the unit when armor is not stripped or reduced.

This is just lvl 120 enemies. The higher the level, the higher the armor, the higher the associated damage reduction, the higher the effective damage multiplier from armor stripping vs 100% armored enemies. Lvl 200 Heavy Gunner: circa 27039 armor and damage reduction of 98.9%. Strip it and you will do 90 times more damage upfront damage (considering 0% damage multipliers) and you can add elemental damage bonus from there.

Keep in mind I can still add more multipliers if I want, be it damage vulnerability, or Warframe buffs, critical damage multipliers, viral procs or whatever, but it won't be needed. I really want to see what other tools you have in mind that can compete in terms of damage and efficiency. 

Slash procs bypassing armor doesn't even come close to the damage players can inflict when stripping high level SP armored units and I hope you see why the problem is not Bleed, but rather armor scaling and the associated damage reduction.

12 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

One cheese gone means armor stripping has bigger importance and more tools to achieve that compared to stacking slash. You have tools to strip armor from warframe to companions that aren't overshadowed by armor bypass from slash

Armor stripping is not overshadowed by Bleed bypassing armor, but I've shown above just how much extra damage armor stripping can do on its own and when only used with synergistic Elemental Bonus Damage above. I'll see how you try to compete with armor stripping.

12 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Seeing how things go and people keep asking DE to reward their efforts to clear SP, I'm not surprised people will find excuse to grind their soul out and complain like that one thread about grinding your soul away in plague star for forma

DE has cultivated the mindset that mission completion means rewards and that players will be rewarded for the grind. Societal structures cultivate the mindset that hard work and/or greater accomplishments means greater rewards and this is embedded in progression style games: Do harder levels, get better gear. It is only natural for players to expect better rewards for completing harder content at a higher progression level. This  is veering off topic though and I'll leave it at that. Make another thread if you want to discuss it.

12 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Is it? Or will it make debuff more important than brute forcing armor with damage boost + bleed + viral?

All your suggestion does, is take away the one more easily accessed tool that can try to compete with the current most effective tactic available, the still-reigning champion, armor stripping.

Edited by Silligoose
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13 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

If you're a god on your golden throne fighting mortals, what kind of "challenge" exists for you? Nerfs all the way to the point sortie 1 enemies are a massive struggle solo and you get your bit of challenge

This is by far the most ridiculous thing I've heard. Nerfs all the way? 

 

Armor strip already *is* king, especially when you scale the enemies so high that it becomes the fastest and most efficient method at killing. Nerfing Viral+Slash into the ground is just going to take away the entry gate most players utilize when they start the upper content (Sorties, Arbitrations, Steel Path starts). You're going to *remove* options that people have and force them into playstyles that they don't want to do, by playing warframes they don't want to, just for armor stripping being a 100% requirement. Unless every warframe has a way to strip armor, this argument standpoint makes no sense. 

 

Nuking our power across the board entirely down to the point where every mission is a slog and a struggle will turn off the vast majority of players. 

 

Also, nuking our power across the board entirely isn't even in line with the core design of the game! This is a *horde* shooter. We're meant to be dispatching enemies quickly, and tons of them. Warframe is a *horde* based looter shooter.

 

21 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

We can't count Steel Path for anything in these arguments. Not only has DE said Steel Path isn't an endgame, it doesn't provide nearly enough things to keep players engaged with it once you complete its star chart. Just because you like smashing your face against a brick wall for the same rewards as normal star chart and having limited access to other missions and activities and things, it doesn't mean most others do.

 

Then if we're talking about the regular star chart, this entire topic is irrelevant. Any weapon that has basic mods on it can shred the normal star chart. Any warframe that is modded even in the barebones fashion can destroy the star chart. There is no "balancing" on the normal star chart. It's designed to be completed by the casual player, either in solo or a team based setting. Changing it via a full global nerf to everything, like Armchair is suggesting, is just going to diminish the playerbase because newer players won't deal with the struggle. They will just quit.

 

If the argument is to "nerf" viral+slash and everything else down to where even the basic star chart is a slog and tough to complete, then that makes the time investment in grinding Sorties, Arbitrations and Steel Path even *worse*. Unless a globalwide nerf to everything came with a huge increase in drop rates across the board, this "nerf" mentality will only hurt the game.

 

Balancing is the key. Redoing things such as warframe abilities with scaling (That don't already have it) or tweaking weapons/mods to ALSO have a scaling factor, imho, is the key here. Scaling ensures that the difficulty remains consistent throughout the experience, no matter the level. (Just to clarify, not the bloated inflated Diablo style stat scaling we have now. Balanced scaling) While they are at it, fixing the enemy AI is another route to increase challenge. Like once you cross the level 100 threshold, the enemies use a new AI and they are smarter. Tougher. Coordinate better. AI is a fairly simple way to bring about the "challenge". Why not a cleansing unit? A unit that removes status procs from its allies? Why not a buffing unit? A CC unit? Why not a unit that restores armor to allies once its stripped? There are SO many ways to readd challenge back into the late game, rather than nuking our power and making us puppies.

Edited by x570Belmont
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It just goes to show, you can never please everyone.

The levels of salt on these forums when the devs announced the melee changes earlier this year were staggering.

Still others seem to think more things should be nerfed and our choices for doing high-level content restricted further.

We're a funny ol' bunch, eh.

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1 hour ago, Dualice said:

It just goes to show, you can never please everyone.

The levels of salt on these forums when the devs announced the melee changes earlier this year were staggering.

Still others seem to think more things should be nerfed and our choices for doing high-level content restricted further.

We're a funny ol' bunch, eh.

 

The biggest head scratcher is most people posting about wanting nerfs haven't even done the higher level content.

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28 minutes ago, x570Belmont said:

 

The biggest head scratcher is most people posting about wanting nerfs haven't even done the higher level content.

So I can see from reading through some of the topic.

I'd regard sortie as mostly steam-roller content, even. The only real hilarity challenge it brings is when there's radiation hazards. Sometimes you get things like augmented shields on round 3 which is basically saying "mod for toxin"... and it's surprising how often that seems to trip people up.

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On 2021-09-12 at 10:01 PM, TheArmchairThinker said:

Seeing how people start saying they take down steel path sentients in one shot using Glaive Prime, I think it's really time to tone down slash and viral.

Viral combined with slash makes a ridiculous amount of DoT where armor ignoring damage ticks with viral multiplier makes even grineer heavy armor pointless. I think you can tone down viral damage increase to 50% - 100% on 10 stacks, making them strong enough and doesn't come out over the rest of the elements.

For slash itself, you can change the bleed damage tick to deal slash damage instead of true damage, Making slash still a viable element for bare flesh and not making armor irrelevant.

Are we going to remove the ridiculous armor scaling? No. Then no changes should be done to slash or viral.

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20 hours ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

Nerfing isn’t the only solution. You could also buff the enemies or buff the weak equipment instead of nerfing everything that’s strong until there’s nothing left on the S tier level.

Buffing enemies has little to no effect when the strong will still wreck them. It makes those that aren't as strong becoming less useful and left behind

Buffing weak equipment will make a lot of effort and makes enemies need buff, making it a race of buffs until the number explodes uncontrollably

Nerfing is the most sensible way and since this game doesn't have your basic game equipment tier, having "S-tier" means it's just the only thing you use and you would complain things are too easy anyway so yes, no S-tier should be allowed

20 hours ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

Third of all, like the other guy said, nerf everything back to square 1 and there’ll only be a few thousand players out of hundreds of thousands or a million. Everybody, maybe including myself, will quit the game if everything gets way too hard.

Then it's questionable if you really want challenge or not because challenge means you will be struggling to clear the mission, even if it's not too hard

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12 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Yeah some other games have armor bypassing and just as in Warframe, you may need items to inflict it, whether it is called Pure Damage, or Penetrating Damage, or Magic Damage. Doesn't matter though. Most games don't have cars passing a ball. Do you think that matters at all with regards to the balance in Rocket League? No. It doesn't matter whether other games have the exact same mechanic or not. What matters is the balance within the game that has that mechanic.

And being able to bypass armor is not balanced, not to mention the insane damage tick you can get from it when the damage from the direct hit itself is nowhere near the damage tick. Last time I see my friend testing Vectis Prime with Hunter Munitions with me shows result bleed damage dealing 45,000 damage from a critical headshot and the bullet itself deals lower than 500 damage on level 165 Heavy Gunner so what part of it is balanced?

12 hours ago, Silligoose said:

No role other than DPS matters when enemies die in an instant, Doesn't matter if it is from Bleed, or Burn, or upfront damage. Nevertheless, I'll bite: Let's take away Bleed bypassing armor.  What other tools are now available that have been opened up? These tools will now be competing with the king vs armor: Complete armor stripping. Here's what it does and how it effectively increases damage of a target that has been stripped of armor vs a target that still has all its armor:

In Steel Path the typical Grineer fodder, Elite Lancer, are encountered all over the place. At lvl 120 they have about 6586 armor due to SP modifiers, equating to 95.65% damage reduction (source Warframe wiki). I can strip that armor for an effective damage multiplier of around x22 with the push of a button, since that damage reduction is now 0%. Now I can smack them with a Heat or Slash for the multiplicative elemental upfront damage bonus giving an additional, multiplicative 25% damage bonus. Our damage multiplier goes from 22 to 22 x (1+Elemental Damage Bonus) - 22 x (1+0.25) = 27.5 I could do that, but I'm pretty sure you are going to pull out all the stops to try and compete, so I'll use Viral Elemental Damage, which gives a 75% damage bonus vs Cloned Flesh for an effective damage multiplier of 22 x 1.75 = 38.5. That is what your other methods are competing with: an effective  x22 multiplier just from armor stripping fodder and a x38.5 multiplier for upfront damage, compared to an enemy that did not have it's armor stripped or reduced. I'm not even counting how Viral or Slash or hear procs will increase that further. Just upfront damage.

Then we encounter Heavy Gunners every now and then. At level 120 on SP your Heavy Gunner has about 18464 armor, equating to 98.4% damage reduction (source Warframe Wiki). Strip that armor and I get an effective damage multiplier of 62.5 compared to 100% armor. Add the Viral elemental bonus and the effective damage multiplier becomes 2.5 x 1.75 = 109.37. One button to strip armor for the insane damage multiplier and one button for the attack with the optimal Damage Elemental Type. Again, this is an effective damage multipler for upfront damage when compared to the unit when armor is not stripped or reduced.

This is just lvl 120 enemies. The higher the level, the higher the armor, the higher the associated damage reduction, the higher the effective damage multiplier from armor stripping vs 100% armored enemies. Lvl 200 Heavy Gunner: circa 27039 armor and damage reduction of 98.9%. Strip it and you will do 90 times more damage upfront damage (considering 0% damage multipliers) and you can add elemental damage bonus from there.

Keep in mind I can still add more multipliers if I want, be it damage vulnerability, or Warframe buffs, critical damage multipliers, viral procs or whatever, but it won't be needed. I really want to see what other tools you have in mind that can compete in terms of damage and efficiency. 

Slash procs bypassing armor doesn't even come close to the damage players can inflict when stripping high level SP armored units and I hope you see why the problem is not Bleed, but rather armor scaling and the associated damage reduction.

And I find that to be the key to encourage teamwork and loadout synergy. You have tons of ways to deplete armor but doesn't matter much when you can just use slash + viral to bleed them to death, technically dealing the multiplier damage you listed

12 hours ago, Silligoose said:

All your suggestion does, is take away the one more easily accessed tool that can try to compete with the current most effective tactic available, the still-reigning champion, armor stripping.

And armor stripping isn't available for every warframe so eventually even a 300% strength Chroma won't be able to brute force the higher level such as Steel Path, means going alone as DPS won't give you satisfying result and progression unless you bring other equipment to fight efficiently or having a teammate to support your DPS. There you go, one step closer to "endgame" that by this forum community definition means you need to bring your best gear and teamwork to finish the fight, not just go alone and nuke everything to oblivion. Armor stripping itself comes with some risk and cost compared to slash + viral where you can just blast enemies face from far away and let the tick finish the job

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11 hours ago, x570Belmont said:

This is by far the most ridiculous thing I've heard. Nerfs all the way? 

 

Armor strip already *is* king, especially when you scale the enemies so high that it becomes the fastest and most efficient method at killing. Nerfing Viral+Slash into the ground is just going to take away the entry gate most players utilize when they start the upper content (Sorties, Arbitrations, Steel Path starts). You're going to *remove* options that people have and force them into playstyles that they don't want to do, by playing warframes they don't want to, just for armor stripping being a 100% requirement. Unless every warframe has a way to strip armor, this argument standpoint makes no sense. 

Upper content doesn't need that entry gate of viral + slash. Sorties and arbitrations are still possible solo without slash + viral. Steel Path is where if slash + viral gets nerfed, it becomes a bit closer to "endgame", where going solo is suicidal and bringing best gears with you still makes you struggle to stay alive and kill enemies efficiently.

Every warframe has a way to strip armor if you have the whole arsenal. The easiest one would be shattering impact where any melee with impact damage can destroy armor as example, no need to switch to play styles you don't want to do and you don't need to strip 100% armor in practice, only enough to make your weapons deal enough damage

11 hours ago, x570Belmont said:

Then if we're talking about the regular star chart, this entire topic is irrelevant. Any weapon that has basic mods on it can shred the normal star chart. Any warframe that is modded even in the barebones fashion can destroy the star chart. There is no "balancing" on the normal star chart. It's designed to be completed by the casual player, either in solo or a team based setting. Changing it via a full global nerf to everything, like Armchair is suggesting, is just going to diminish the playerbase because newer players won't deal with the struggle. They will just quit.

 

If the argument is to "nerf" viral+slash and everything else down to where even the basic star chart is a slog and tough to complete, then that makes the time investment in grinding Sorties, Arbitrations and Steel Path even *worse*. Unless a globalwide nerf to everything came with a huge increase in drop rates across the board, this "nerf" mentality will only hurt the game.

I'm not suggesting to make star chart a slog and tough, I'm taking Steel Path into consideration where even enemies with 90% damage reduction doesn't matter because you can just bleed them to death, ignoring their armor so I'm removing that to make teamwork and synergy having bigger importance than just brute forcing everything solo

11 hours ago, x570Belmont said:

Balancing is the key. Redoing things such as warframe abilities with scaling (That don't already have it) or tweaking weapons/mods to ALSO have a scaling factor, imho, is the key here. Scaling ensures that the difficulty remains consistent throughout the experience, no matter the level. (Just to clarify, not the bloated inflated Diablo style stat scaling we have now. Balanced scaling) While they are at it, fixing the enemy AI is another route to increase challenge. Like once you cross the level 100 threshold, the enemies use a new AI and they are smarter. Tougher. Coordinate better. AI is a fairly simple way to bring about the "challenge". Why not a cleansing unit? A unit that removes status procs from its allies? Why not a buffing unit? A CC unit? Why not a unit that restores armor to allies once its stripped? There are SO many ways to readd challenge back into the late game, rather than nuking our power and making us puppies.

Balancing means nerfing things that too strong in the range, not just buffing things until it's "balanced".

Warframe abilities with scaling is a mistake. If warframe abilities scale with enemy level, what's the point of having enemy level? And where is the "endgame" that this forum keep screaming to DE to add if you can still fight level 9999 comfortably with the scaling? Remove that and you will have the upper limit of warframe abilities to put the line of "endgame"

Fixing enemy AI won't do much when you cover 50 meters radius around you with your abilities, not to mention the hard lock on CC abilities where enemies can't even do a thing that I doubt even if a human player enters your session they won't be able to do anything so you want even more nerf on warframe abilities to make the AI able to do something?

Buffing unit? CC unit? Look at past threads where CC units get complained being "not fun"

Tell me if you can find a game where you're as strong as the Tenno and the enemies able to put pressure on you that isn't heavy damage to make you retreat and heal or bosses with millions of HP and multiple health bars to deplete

Almost every game that gives you challenge makes you as weak as puppies, if not brick walls where you bash your head against it if you're not weak

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1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Upper content doesn't need that entry gate of viral + slash. Sorties and arbitrations are still possible solo without slash + viral. Steel Path is where if slash + viral gets nerfed, it becomes a bit closer to "endgame", where going solo is suicidal and bringing best gears with you still makes you struggle to stay alive and kill enemies efficiently.

You missed the part where I said "most" players. It's the most easily accessible option to most of the playerbase because it doesn't require a lot to slap on Viral and Hunter Munitions.

 

1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Every warframe has a way to strip armor if you have the whole arsenal.

This is factually incorrect. You're factoring in weapons. Every WARFRAME does not have armor strip. You know, since we're nitpicking here. 

 

1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

I'm not suggesting to make star chart a slog and tough, I'm taking Steel Path into consideration where even enemies with 90% damage reduction doesn't matter because you can just bleed them to death, ignoring their armor so I'm removing that to make teamwork and synergy having bigger importance than just brute forcing everything solo

And until Armor Scaling is looked at and changed, Bleed should be left alone. No tweaks to enemy armor scaling means no changing bleed.

 

1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Warframe abilities with scaling is a mistake. If warframe abilities scale with enemy level, what's the point of having enemy level? And where is the "endgame" that this forum keep screaming to DE to add if you can still fight level 9999 comfortably with the scaling? Remove that and you will have the upper limit of warframe abilities to put the line of "endgame"

I'm... trying to understand what I just read here. Scaling abilities are a MISTAKE? Exactly how, pray tell, should abilities that don't scale keep up at higher levels? We're talking about the game as it is right now, not what we want it to be. In this current game, if abilities don't scale, they go unused once you hit Steel Path if it's a damage ability. Why even bother to use the ability if any weapon at all can outperform it by thousands of damage? Why have damage abilities in the game at all at that point?

 

1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Almost every game that gives you challenge makes you as weak as puppies, if not brick walls where you bash your head against it if you're not weak

 

I'm calling shenanigans on that statement. This is Warframe, not Dark Souls. It's a HORDE BASED LOOTER SHOOTER. We are MEANT to be dispatching HORDES of enemies as quickly and efficiently AS POSSIBLE. That is *literally* the core of the design. That is the heart of the game. 

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