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Looks like it's time to tone down slash and viral


TheArmchairThinker
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17 minutes ago, x570Belmont said:

I'm calling shenanigans on that statement. This is Warframe, not Dark Souls. It's a HORDE BASED LOOTER SHOOTER. We are MEANT to be dispatching HORDES of enemies as quickly and efficiently AS POSSIBLE. That is *literally* the core of the design. That is the heart of the game. 

Since “Horde shooter” can mean more than Dynasty Warriors-esque gameplay, I question the accuracy of this particular description, since to do what you’re describing to the level you’re expecting involves basically not playing the game.

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7 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Since “Horde shooter” can mean more than Dynasty Warriors-esque gameplay, I question the accuracy of this particular description, since to do what you’re describing to the level you’re expecting involves basically not playing the game.

"Looter" was part of that equation.

 

When you have a game that revolves around resources and drop rates, and hordes of enemies, the core design philosophy is completing missions/eliminating enemies to gather the required resources. No one is going to want to play a grindy game where the base content is a slog to get through. If every single mission was a slog and a huge timesink to do to gather loot from what already are abysmal drop rates, I 100% guarantee the player count will diminish severely. 

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54 minutes ago, x570Belmont said:

"Looter" was part of that equation.

 

When you have a game that revolves around resources and drop rates, and hordes of enemies, the core design philosophy is completing missions/eliminating enemies to gather the required resources. No one is going to want to play a grindy game where the base content is a slog to get through. If every single mission was a slog and a huge timesink to do to gather loot from what already are abysmal drop rates, I 100% guarantee the player count will diminish severely. 

Then we force them to play the game, and soak up any losses. Right now many Warframe players are treating the game as that thing that’s between them and another pull on the RNG lever. The game’s turned off because it gets in the way; so don’t let them turn the game off and all that core design stuff like resistances and abilities and different non-meta weapons become relevant again.

It brings the Looter and the Shooter closer together, because right now players are only playing the Looter (you’ve seen players literally describing Warframe as “The game is the grind”, right?)

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1 hour ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

It brings the Looter and the Shooter closer together, because right now players are only playing the Looter (you’ve seen players literally describing Warframe as “The game is the grind”, right?)

 

I'm not 100% disagreeing with you, or the concept of adding in difficulty as a whole. All I'm trying to say is that it's a clear time investment versus reward. The rewards in warframe are small, given spaced out from each other. Yes, it's a grind, but there are rewards strewn through that grind that makes the grind worth playing for people who enjoy that style of game. Stretch out the "grind" portion though by inflating it with too much difficulty, without on the other end buffing the rewards one gets for the time investment, and the amount of participation in said grind will start to fall off.

 

My entire viewpoint is that there are other ways, and other places in Warframe, that 'difficulty' can be added in or further increased without having to touch player power.

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59 minutes ago, x570Belmont said:

 

I'm not 100% disagreeing with you, or the concept of adding in difficulty as a whole. All I'm trying to say is that it's a clear time investment versus reward. The rewards in warframe are small, given spaced out from each other. Yes, it's a grind, but there are rewards strewn through that grind that makes the grind worth playing for people who enjoy that style of game. Stretch out the "grind" portion though by inflating it with too much difficulty, without on the other end buffing the rewards one gets for the time investment, and the amount of participation in said grind will start to fall off.

 

My entire viewpoint is that there are other ways, and other places in Warframe, that 'difficulty' can be added in or further increased without having to touch player power.

Hmmm. 🤔 

I’ve looked through some of your suggestions; better AI, scaling abilities. Wouldn’t the introduction of these ways of providing challenge push players into risking death and failure and ultimately loss of grind progression?

I don’t know how one would introduce ways of potentially slowing down the grind without making players wish that there were an easier way, and they would skip the challenge if they could, akin to what we’re seeing with players using as risk-averse builds as possible already. Unless it’s like a really gentle challenge that’s almost impossible to fail?

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6 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And being able to bypass armor is not balanced, not to mention the insane damage tick you can get from it when the damage from the direct hit itself is nowhere near the damage tick. Last time I see my friend testing Vectis Prime with Hunter Munitions with me shows result bleed damage dealing 45,000 damage from a critical headshot and the bullet itself deals lower than 500 damage on level 165 Heavy Gunner so what part of it is balanced?

The main reason his bullet did so little damage is because armor scaling and the associated damage reduction is too high. That is what needs to be addressed,

6 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And I find that to be the key to encourage teamwork and loadout synergy. You have tons of ways to deplete armor but doesn't matter much when you can just use slash + viral to bleed them to death, technically dealing the multiplier damage you listed

I gave you a chance to expand on your idea. I'm giving it again:
Let us assume Bleed doesn't bypass armor. What other options are there to compete with armor stripping? Go ahead and tell us, but actually back up your statement with numbers and facts.

Thanks to armor bypassing, your friend's Vectis Prime capable of taking out a lvl 160 Heavy Gunner on Steel Path 50m+ meters away from the team. Let us take away armor bypassing. Can he still do that? How is he going to do that? Tell us. All I see is that you just took away one of your friend's tools.

6 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And armor stripping isn't available for every warframe so eventually even a 300% strength Chroma won't be able to brute force the higher level such as Steel Path, means going alone as DPS won't give you satisfying result and progression unless you bring other equipment to fight efficiently or having a teammate to support your DPS. There you go, one step closer to "endgame" that by this forum community definition means you need to bring your best gear and teamwork to finish the fight, not just go alone and nuke everything to oblivion. Armor stripping itself comes with some risk and cost compared to slash + viral where you can just blast enemies face from far away and let the tick finish the job

You want to see a difficulty setting and balance whereby teamplay and synergistic compositions are more viable and encouraged. I understand that. You know I would welcome such a balance in an optional difficulty setting, but your suggestion is not the right way to go about it, because it will make armor stripping the most effective tactic available by far and in proper end-game balance, one wants to make sure the most effective tactic does not completely outperform the rest of the options, so that players aren't pigeon holed into a specific loadout and tactics too early into the content.

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6 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Wouldn’t the introduction of these ways of providing challenge push players into risking death and failure and ultimately loss of grind progression?

Apologies, I should've been clearer on that. I meant on level tiers, Example, once enemies hit level 100, the new AI and spawns can kick in. Level 300, they become even more aggressive. Level 500, again. An so on.

 

This leaves the base star chart alone. I wanted to advocate adding the difficulty to the enemies above the basic content. The base content should stay as accessible as possible for the majority of the playerbase. Steel path being an additional mode that isn't required is the perfect place to add this challenege.

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1 minute ago, x570Belmont said:

Apologies, I should've been clearer on that. I meant on level tiers, Example, once enemies hit level 100, the new AI and spawns can kick in. Level 300, they become even more aggressive. Level 500, again. An so on.

 

This leaves the base star chart alone. I wanted to advocate adding the difficulty to the enemies above the basic content. The base content should stay as accessible as possible for the majority of the playerbase. Steel path being an additional mode that isn't required is the perfect place to add this challenege.

Hmm. So you’re saying that, in a completely optional gamemode, difficulty should be implemented? Won’t players just figure out how to trivialise the fight?

What’s the tiering system solve?

Aren’t players already trivialising Steel Path? What happens when they can’t?

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32 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

What’s the tiering system solve?

Aren’t players already trivialising Steel Path? What happens when they can’t?

 

It puts difficulty into a place where it doesn't affect the already core game to give the 'difficulty' that many people seem to be asking for. As to what happens if it becomes trivialized, I don't have an answer to that one. Power creep eventually ensured that any content is going to become trivialized at some point. Players are going to attempt to maximize efficiency and trivialize content as much as possible. It's in their nature. I'm only offering a counterpoint to the "nerf everything" mentality, because I don't think that nerfing everything across the board is the answer, especially in the case of Viral+Slash. 

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17 minutes ago, x570Belmont said:

 

It puts difficulty into a place where it doesn't affect the already core game to give the 'difficulty' that many people seem to be asking for. As to what happens if it becomes trivialized, I don't have an answer to that one. Power creep eventually ensured that any content is going to become trivialized at some point. Players are going to attempt to maximize efficiency and trivialize content as much as possible. It's in their nature. I'm only offering a counterpoint to the "nerf everything" mentality, because I don't think that nerfing everything across the board is the answer, especially in the case of Viral+Slash. 

Yech. Sounds kind of stupid to trivialise everything if someone’s looking for a fight, and it’s not like it’s a secret that players will optimize their own fun out of the game because it’s the smart thing to do.

I get your point.

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20 hours ago, AJAL8000 said:

Why nerf (Slash + Viral) and not BUFF the other physical states?

Where does the buffing end? What's stopping DE from adding more enemies that nobody likes in order to help rectify the problem of players going braindead godmode and boring themselves to quitting, because they're too afraid to tone players down?

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13 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

Where does the buffing end? What's stopping DE from adding more enemies that nobody likes in order to help rectify the problem of players going braindead godmode and boring themselves to quitting, because they're too afraid to tone players down?

The very solution to this is buff the enemies, then buff the weak weapons.

done.

easy.

simple.

 

OR JUST MAKE THE ENEMIES MORE FREAKIN INTELLIGENT.

THEY can’t aim properly, if they shout 15 rounds about 3 of them hit me.

LOOK AT CLEM! LOOK AT KAHL! THEY CAN AIM! They can aim! They can blast enemies into oblivion with dem grakatas.

Kahl can kill sentients in less than a mag with a unmodded grakata! That’s better than that thumper that got 1 shot. AND HES NOT EVEN A ELITE LANCER. HE’S A REGULAR LANCER. THAT REGULAR LANCER WE 1 SHOT ALL THE TIME.

Clem… what can I say about him? Darvo already said “He’s a bit odd but one hell of a fighter” he’s also grineer, and he’s a clone. When I go on a mission or spawn his clone at most he misses 3 shots. 
 

Also I’ve always had the idea of there being medics on the enemy side because why not? I mean enemies who can revive certain enemies when they are near death. (Kind of like us being able to revive other players when downed)

 

Look at MOAS: in a 7 meter distance barely a single bullet hits me. THEY ARE ROBOTS. They should be able to aim!

 

About 10 of my friends quit already because it’s way too brain dead.

that should be fixed.

 

Make then harder, but not frustratingly hard. Just make everything more equalized

(Even warframes: only very few warframes have equal stats).

Edited by (PSN)Reaper330011
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On 2021-09-25 at 11:03 AM, x570Belmont said:

You missed the part where I said "most" players. It's the most easily accessible option to most of the playerbase because it doesn't require a lot to slap on Viral and Hunter Munitions.

And by design, the most accessible in option is cheesing the game which shouldn't be allowed and if DE were as hard as other devs, it would be nerfed to hell in one day

On 2021-09-25 at 11:03 AM, x570Belmont said:

This is factually incorrect. You're factoring in weapons. Every WARFRAME does not have armor strip. You know, since we're nitpicking here. 

Just like any other game where not every class can boost damage or lower enemy defense, now you either special equipment or another class to fight with you. Isn't that what you people want?

On 2021-09-25 at 11:03 AM, x570Belmont said:

And until Armor Scaling is looked at and changed, Bleed should be left alone. No tweaks to enemy armor scaling means no changing bleed.

To be honest, that's the ugly truth of "endgame" and "challenge". You're put with unfavorable position where enemies have insane armor/defense that is beyond your power to make going alone nearly impossible if you don't bring another players with another role. Try playing any game and look for yourself if it's not the same with warframe but with even less choice to bring and no way to cheese them

On 2021-09-25 at 11:03 AM, x570Belmont said:

I'm... trying to understand what I just read here. Scaling abilities are a MISTAKE? Exactly how, pray tell, should abilities that don't scale keep up at higher levels? We're talking about the game as it is right now, not what we want it to be. In this current game, if abilities don't scale, they go unused once you hit Steel Path if it's a damage ability. Why even bother to use the ability if any weapon at all can outperform it by thousands of damage? Why have damage abilities in the game at all at that point?

That means there's a limit on how far you go and DE can set the line. If our power is set at level 40, that means level 41+ is the "endgame". Why bother to use the ability if any weapon can outperform by thousands of damage? We nerf them then

On 2021-09-25 at 11:03 AM, x570Belmont said:

I'm calling shenanigans on that statement. This is Warframe, not Dark Souls. It's a HORDE BASED LOOTER SHOOTER. We are MEANT to be dispatching HORDES of enemies as quickly and efficiently AS POSSIBLE. That is *literally* the core of the design. That is the heart of the game. 

Apparently those people keep wanting to change warframe into dark souls so I'm just putting it.

You people brought this, I'm just thinking on what to do to make it a reality. Stop those people from making any post about balance, endgame and challenge and I would stop making this kind of post

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On 2021-09-25 at 4:19 PM, Silligoose said:

The main reason his bullet did so little damage is because armor scaling and the associated damage reduction is too high. That is what needs to be addressed,

No, the cheesing armor part is the one that need to be addressed before you people who keep screaming warframe needs endgame can have one

On 2021-09-25 at 4:19 PM, Silligoose said:

I gave you a chance to expand on your idea. I'm giving it again:
Let us assume Bleed doesn't bypass armor. What other options are there to compete with armor stripping? Go ahead and tell us, but actually back up your statement with numbers and facts.

Thanks to armor bypassing, your friend's Vectis Prime capable of taking out a lvl 160 Heavy Gunner on Steel Path 50m+ meters away from the team. Let us take away armor bypassing. Can he still do that? How is he going to do that? Tell us. All I see is that you just took away one of your friend's tools.

I doubt any game has other ways to deal with armor/defense other than stripping them down. The only difference is other games make you do it very slowly by casting it over and over until the defense/armor goes down to zero.

And he's the one who wants it to be gone. Even chuckling when thinking how glorious the meltdown will be if slash gets nerfed because too many people boast on how easy warframe is while crutching on cheese. He's not bound to one tool, he's adaptive and I learned things from him

On 2021-09-25 at 4:19 PM, Silligoose said:

You want to see a difficulty setting and balance whereby teamplay and synergistic compositions are more viable and encouraged. I understand that. You know I would welcome such a balance in an optional difficulty setting, but your suggestion is not the right way to go about it, because it will make armor stripping the most effective tactic available by far and in proper end-game balance, one wants to make sure the most effective tactic does not completely outperform the rest of the options, so that players aren't pigeon holed into a specific loadout and tactics too early into the content.

Isn't endgame basically that, pigeonholing players into set gears and roles in any game with "endgame"?

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On 2021-09-25 at 9:32 PM, x570Belmont said:

Apologies, I should've been clearer on that. I meant on level tiers, Example, once enemies hit level 100, the new AI and spawns can kick in. Level 300, they become even more aggressive. Level 500, again. An so on.

Doesn't matter, you have tons of ways to shut them off either temporarily or permanently so should we nerf those too?

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27 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

You people brought this, I'm just thinking on what to do to make it a reality. Stop those people from making any post about balance, endgame and challenge and I would stop making this kind of post

First of all I’m getting seriously irritated by the way you refer to us as “you people”.

Second of all do you even have a valid reason as to why we SHOULDN’T post bout balance, endgame and challenge?

27 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

That means there's a limit on how far you go and DE can set the line. If our power is set at level 40, that means level 41+ is the "endgame". Why bother to use the ability if any weapon can outperform by thousands of damage? We nerf them then

On 2021-09-25 at 12:03 PM, x570Belmont said:

Weapons make damage abilities useless, but damage abilities can have different affects.

For example Harrow’ Covenant. It makes your weapons insanely OP and temporarily immortalises you. Can weapons do that?

GLOOM slows enemies and gives your weapons lifesteal. Can weapons do that?

Thurible can ENERGY RESTORE. Can weapons do that?

Nekros summons dead people to fight for him, and has so many uses and deals so much damage. Can your weapons do that?

SARYN CAN KILL A WHOLE MAP IN A SECOND. Can any weapon do that?

Abilities outperform weapons in every way because they have more uses then just damage but most of this game requires damage, so everything is basically the same.

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3 hours ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

The very solution to this is buff the enemies, then buff the weak weapons.

done.

easy.

simple.

It is not that simple. It is never that simple.

Enemies get buffed, now weapons may be too weak to fight them. They get buffed, now enemies are too easy to kill, so DE must buff them next to keep the game from becoming even more of a pushover than it already is. Then we're back to weapons being too weak to fight the buffed enemies again. All buffing does it create a vicious cycle of power creep that has no end.

3 hours ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

OR JUST MAKE THE ENEMIES MORE FREAKIN INTELLIGENT.

Enemy AI hasn't been touched in years. What makes you think it's at all likely to change over simply changing the stats of weapons/frames/enemies? Making the AI more intelligent is a lot harder than anyone makes it out to be.

Also, what good is a smart AI going to do in this current state of the game? Enemies can take cover and flank you now? Saryn and Mesa's nukes don't care. No matter how tactical and intelligent an AI gets, massive CC and nuke abilities will just turn them off before it can do anything.

3 hours ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

THEY can’t aim properly, if they shout 15 rounds about 3 of them hit me.

LOOK AT CLEM! LOOK AT KAHL! THEY CAN AIM! They can aim! They can blast enemies into oblivion with dem grakatas.

Kahl can kill sentients in less than a mag with a unmodded grakata! That’s better than that thumper that got 1 shot. AND HES NOT EVEN A ELITE LANCER. HE’S A REGULAR LANCER. THAT REGULAR LANCER WE 1 SHOT ALL THE TIME.

Clem… what can I say about him? Darvo already said “He’s a bit odd but one hell of a fighter” he’s also grineer, and he’s a clone. When I go on a mission or spawn his clone at most he misses 3 shots. 
 

Also I’ve always had the idea of there being medics on the enemy side because why not? I mean enemies who can revive certain enemies when they are near death. (Kind of like us being able to revive other players when downed)

 

Look at MOAS: in a 7 meter distance barely a single bullet hits me. THEY ARE ROBOTS. They should be able to aim!

Same problem with making the AI smarter: What good will these changes do when you can mass slaughter hordes of enemies or suppress them with one button press? It'd be a colossal waste of time unless the enemies get some way to ignore your abilities and AoE weapons, or they got nerfed.

3 hours ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

Make then harder, but not frustratingly hard. Just make everything more equalized

You're asking for the game to be in a paradoxical state. Nothing will be equalized without nerfs. No smarter AI will be worth the effort if players can just shut it off without even thinking about it.

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13 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

It is not that simple. It is never that simple.

Enemies get buffed, now weapons may be too weak to fight them. They get buffed, now enemies are too easy to kill, so DE must buff them next to keep the game from becoming even more of a pushover than it already is. Then we're back to weapons being too weak to fight the buffed enemies again. All buffing does it create a vicious cycle of power creep that has no end.

Enemy AI hasn't been touched in years. What makes you think it's at all likely to change over simply changing the stats of weapons/frames/enemies? Making the AI more intelligent is a lot harder than anyone makes it out to be.

Also, what good is a smart AI going to do in this current state of the game? Enemies can take cover and flank you now? Saryn and Mesa's nukes don't care. No matter how tactical and intelligent an AI gets, massive CC and nuke abilities will just turn them off before it can do anything.

Same problem with making the AI smarter: What good will these changes do when you can mass slaughter hordes of enemies or suppress them with one button press? It'd be a colossal waste of time unless the enemies get some way to ignore your abilities and AoE weapons, or they got nerfed.

You're asking for the game to be in a paradoxical state. Nothing will be equalized without nerfs. No smarter AI will be worth the effort if players can just shut it off without even thinking about it.

The reason we can just turn off all the enemies with a single button is because they have 1 IQ (Excluding Corrupted, they set up so many ambushes in the map they kill me before I can press a button sometimes). 70% of the bullets miss, they’re easy to kill because they just stand still like statues as they get shot (kahl be movin, that’s how he’s alive… unless erra killed him),  huh..

 Mesa and Saryn don’t care. Right.

Ok there’s nothing we can about saryn but if they actually use those…. What are they called? The black cover things that they deploy? Forgot but anyways, if they actually hide behind that then it’d be easier for them to survive, which they don’t so I don’t know why they even spawn them. 

Seriously we can 1 shot literally anything in the game so I don’t really see how giving the enemies a buff will make the weapons go down to the D tier.

Bro it works the same thing around. Nerf the enemies, too easy to kill. Nerf the weapons, we won’t be able to kill anything. 
 

I have rarely heard of buffs and seen nerfs everywhere. There needs to be a bit more buffing.

Smarter AI means that the players will find it HARDER to shut them off or maybe IMPOSSIBLE to shut them off without thinking about it. The most fun in this game for me is running a 5 hour steel path survival at a camp with spectres everywhere, and even then I find things… well on SP it’s not very easy is it? It’s not supposed to be but somehow for most advanced players, it is. Just grab a Kuva Zarr, mod it, forma it, catalyst it, then you’ll 1 shot anything in the game! 

If enemies MOVE, we’ll have to use those aiming skills we all have because we can’t bomb them if they are out of the aoe  range right? The solution can be done without buffing or nerfing anything and yes true I may have exaggerated on the “easy simple” 🤔.


 

 

 

 

 

and by the way I think my points are hypothetical/theoretical because I can’t see any situation where DE makes it happen…. 

Edited by (PSN)Reaper330011
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12 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

No, the cheesing armor part is the one that need to be addressed before you people who keep screaming warframe needs endgame can have one

In terms of having an end-game that presents a challenge while providing variety, cheesing armor and the associated mechanics are but a piece of the puzzle. By your metrics, complete armor stripping is also cheese.

Let us play this out and make enemies more durable by your metrics:

Scenario 1 

Bleed no longer bypasses armor. It can be argued complete armor stripping of enemies with the push of a button is also cheese, so that also has to go (apologies to the frames that specialized in that!). Now we are left with a situation where offensive options are more in balance vs armor, but armored enemies at high level are out of balance due to the massive difference in Effective Health Pool (EHP) between armored units and non-armored units. So all other enemies need to have their EHP boosted. Once done, EHP is more balanced across factions, except for armored enemies who also have shields, that needs individual tweaks to those units. OK, DE does that too. One problem remains: Enemies that regenerate the shields of their allies: This can be cheesed with Toxin, since Toxin bypasses shields and that isn't something "that happens in most other games". Time for that to go. Like you, I also used the word "most" so any number of games that has those mechanics can be dismissed, apparently.

Net result? More durable enemies overall, with offensive options to players being more in balance. We've achieved our goal of having more durable enemies at end-game that doesn't get blown up instantly and more varied offensive options in dealing with those enemies. The cost? Elimination of various mechanics implemented to specialize in dealing with certain enemies types. Compared to other solutions, we've lost variety, resulting in the game losing tactical depth.

 

Is there another option? Yes. Let us forget about your metrics for this one and make enemies more durable, without needing to eliminate certain tools such as armor bypassing:

Scenario 2 

Address the actual problem: Reduce armor scaling and/or associated damage reduction (edit: keep current armor bypassing, full armor stripping and toxin mechanics as is). Increase EHP enemies to not get blown up instantly. Net result? We have also achieved the goal of having more durable enemies at end-game overall, with offensive options to players being more in balance. The cost? No mechanics were lost and specialized strategies and tactics have not lost their viability. Variety is greater compared to the above approach, resulting in the game having greater tactical depth as compared to the above scenario.

One solution decreased the variety of current mechanics, decreasing tactical depth whilst also alienating certain frames and abilities. The other solution did not. 

For what it is worth, having more durable enemies is also only a piece of the puzzle in Warframe having an end-game that offers more of a challenge, while providing more balanced variety.

12 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

I doubt any game has other ways to deal with armor/defense other than stripping them down. The only difference is other games make you do it very slowly by casting it over and over until the defense/armor goes down to zero.

And he's the one who wants it to be gone. Even chuckling when thinking how glorious the meltdown will be if slash gets nerfed because too many people boast on how easy warframe is while crutching on cheese. He's not bound to one tool, he's adaptive and I learned things from him

Dragon Age has Penetrating Damage that can bypass armor. In Path of Exile magic damage bypasses armor. In Dota Pure Damage bypasses armor. Various games have various armor- and associated damage reduction mechanics, which have mechanics that can bypass that.

Your argument is "most games don't have it, so Warframe shouldn't". Most games don't have bullet jumping. Does that mean we shouldn't have bullet jumping either? Most games don't have aim-glide. Does that mean we shouldn't have aim-glide either? Most games don't have wall-latching. Does that mean we shouldn't have wall-latching either? Most games don't have damage based on different types of physical and elemental damage. Does that mean Warframe shouldn't either? By your logic, many of the mechanics that make Warframe more unique, that makes Warframe, Warframe, shouldn't exist and Waframe should be a generic copy-cat game wheere you run and shoot. Basing mechanic validity on whether or not "most games" have such a mechanic is foolish - if developers used that as a metric, we wouldn't have any innovation in games.

You also deflected the question, most likely because you realized you don't have an answer that wouldn't be laughable.

12 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Isn't endgame basically that, pigeonholing players into set gears and roles in any game with "endgame"?

Proper balance at end-game ensures various viable tactics and loadouts can be used, without the most effective tactic available completely outperforming other options to a massive degree, ie players don't get pigeon-holed into the meta by force. Your suggestion, however, would.

You miss the forest for the trees. Slash being as strong as it is vs armor (though not the strongest vs armor, as shown previously) is a symptom of armor scaling and associated damage reduction being out of balance, which is the problem. You want to treat only one of several symptoms, instead of treating the problem.

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2 hours ago, RazerXPrime said:

Only thing I would like to see is making shields immune to slash procs. Shields don't bleed. 

Nor does armor lol.

1 hour ago, Silligoose said:

In terms of having an end-game that presents a challenge while providing variety, cheesing armor and the associated mechanics are but a piece of the puzzle. By your metrics, complete armor stripping is also cheese.

Let us play this out by your metrics:

It can be argued complete armor stripping of enemies with the push of a button is also cheese, so that also has to go (apologies to the frames that specialized in that!). Now we are left with a situation where offensive options are more in balance vs armor, but armored enemies at high level are out of balance due to the massive difference in Effective Health Pool (EHP) between armored units and non-armored units. So all other enemies need to have their EHP boosted. Once done, EHP is more balanced across factions, except for armored enemies who also have shields, that needs individual tweaks to those units. OK, DE does that too. One problem remains: Enemies that regenerate the shields of their allies: This can be cheesed with Toxin, since Toxin bypasses shields and that isn't something "that happens in most other games". Time for that to go. Like you, I also used the word "most" so any number of games that has those mechanics can be dismissed, apparently.

Net result? More durable enemies overall, with offensive options to players being more in balance. We've achieved our goal of having more durable enemies at end-game that doesn't get blown up instantly and more varied offensive options in dealing with those enemies. The cost? Elimination of various mechanics implemented to specialize in dealing with certain enemies types. Compared to other solutions, we've lost variety, resulting in the game losing tactical depth.

I there another option? Yes. Address the actual problem: Reduce armor scaling and/or associated damage reduction. Increase EHP enemies to not get blown up instantly. Net result? We have also achieved the goal of having more durable enemies at end-game overall, with offensive options to players being more in balance. The cost? No mechanics were lost and specialized strategies and tactics have not lost their viability. Variety is greater compared to the above approach, resulting in the game having greater tactical depth as compared to the above scenario.

One solution decreased the variety of current mechanics, decreasing tactical depth whilst also alienating certain frames and abilities. The other solution did not. 

For what it is worth, having more durable enemies is also only a piece of the puzzle in Warframe having an end-game that offers more of a challenge, while providing more balanced variety.

Interesting idea. Simple, efficient, and thorough. But whenever you say “that needs to go” for toxin for example odn’t remove the thing as a element just remove toxin’s affect of bypassing shields.

1 hour ago, Silligoose said:

Dragon Age has Penetrating Damage that can bypass armor. In Path of Exile magic damage bypasses armor. In Dota Pure Damage bypasses armor. Various games have various armor- and associated damage reduction mechanics, which have mechanics that can bypass that.

Your argument is "most games don't have it, so Warframe shouldn't". Most games don't have bullet jumping. Does that mean we shouldn't have bullet jumping either? Most games don't have aim-glide. Does that mean we shouldn't have aim-glide either? Most games don't have wall-latching. Does that mean we shouldn't have wall-latching either? Most games don't have damage based on different types of physical and elemental damage. Does that mean Warframe shouldn't either? By your logic, many of the mechanics that make Warframe more unique, that makes Warframe, Warframe, shouldn't exist and Waframe should be a generic copy-cat game wheere you run and shoot. Basing mechanic validity on whether or not "most games" have such a mechanic is foolish - if developers used that as a metric, we wouldn't have any innovation in games.

You also deflected the question, most likely because you realized you don't have an answer that wouldn't be laughable.

Had a conversation like this and anybody who’s played at least 15 games will KNOW that what he said above is TRUE.

“Most games don’t have armor bypassing to warframe shouldn’t?” Then what’s the point in warframe? Just play any other game if it’s gonna be a copycat.

The gameplay, playstyle, affects, damage types, parkour is all unique to warframe if you just removed all that and made it a copycat of “MOST” (most of your copycat games, if I would specify) other games, then why play it?

1 hour ago, Silligoose said:

Proper balance at end-game ensures various viable tactics and loadouts can be used, without the most effective tactic available completely outperforming other options to a massive degree, ie players don't get pigeon-holed into the meta by force. Your suggestion, however, would.

You miss the forest for the trees. Slash being as strong as it is vs armor (though not the strongest vs armor, as shown previously) is a symptom of armor scaling and associated damage reduction being out of balance, which is the problem. You want to treat only one of several symptoms, instead of treating the problem

This, again. 
Remove slash armor bypass, the main problem is still not adressed. What comes next? Viral? Corrosive? Toxic? And then the DR/Armor Scaling isn’t reduced? Why did you even make this thread? But then again, we have this right:

 

9 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

You people brought this, I'm just thinking on what to do to make it a reality. Stop those people from making any post about balance, endgame and challenge and I would stop making this kind of post

 

Edited by (PSN)Reaper330011
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6 minutes ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

Nor does armor lol.

While I share this gripe with armor too because the attacks 100% ignore armor which is weird. But when comparing armor and shields they are different. Armor can be pierced. It doesn't have it's own HP bar. Something that cuts through armor can affect what's underneath. Shields function differently. They completely absorb damage. Armor does not.

Perhaps armor can get some sort of buff that gains resistance against certain procs, but no immunity. Shields should be immune to slash procs.

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