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Looks like it's time to tone down slash and viral


TheArmchairThinker
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Just now, RazerXPrime said:

While I share this gripe with armor too because the attacks 100% ignore armor which is weird. But when comparing armor and shields they are different. Armor can be pierced. It doesn't have it's own HP bar. Something that cuts through armor can affect what's underneath. Shields function differently. They completely absorb damage. Armor does not.

Perhaps armor can get some sort of buff that gains resistance against certain procs, but no immunity. Shields should be immune to slash procs.

 But whenever I see  a enemy get bleed I see the blood come out from the armor, and there’s no hole in the armor from where the blood should drip. Drip rip rip. (My own version of rap tap tap 😎 

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2 hours ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

Interesting idea. Simple, efficient, and thorough. But whenever you say “that needs to go” for toxin for example odn’t remove the thing as a element just remove toxin’s affect of bypassing shields.

For clarity, the implication within that section was a specific mechanic being eliminated, not the proc or element itself.

I also want to confirm I personally do not wish to see the mechanic for toxin bypassing shields to be eliminated, same as I do not wish for the mechanic allowing Bleed to bypass armor to be eliminated, for reasons within my previous replies (tools being taken away), which is why I made the comparison in two different approaches and some of their consequences.

Edit: I've edited the previous response for clarity.

Edited by Silligoose
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8 hours ago, Silligoose said:

For clarity, the implication within that section was a specific mechanic being eliminated, not the proc or element itself.

I also want to confirm I personally do not wish to see the mechanic for toxin bypassing shields to be eliminated, same as I do not wish for the mechanic allowing Bleed to bypass armor to be eliminated, for reasons within my previous replies (tools being taken away), which is why I made the comparison in two different approaches and some of their consequences.

Edit: I've edited the previous response for clarity.

Ah alright. Otherwise it’s a good idea, but yeah it would be sad to see the mechanics go seeing how it’s helped so much in the game…

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4 minutes ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

Ah alright. Otherwise it’s a good idea, but yeah it would be sad to see the mechanics go seeing how it’s helped so much in the game…

For me it is about looking to keep as many different tools viable for as long as possible - eventually with long runs the meta is going to come out on top, but the longer other non-meta's can stay viable and competitive, the better, as players wouldn't get pigeon-holed as quickly. It is the same reason I'd prefer Bleed still be able to bypass armor and instead have the armor scaling and/or associated DR numbers adjusted.

I'm surprised you'd want to see the change to Toxin. It may sound like the go-to choice vs shield, but it may not be, since robotic health resists the damage, shielded, armored enemies have damage reduction to their health and (anecdotally) only the toxin damage of a weapon bypasses shields, not all the damage.

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16 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

For me it is about looking to keep as many different tools viable for as long as possible - eventually with long runs the meta is going to come out on top, but the longer other non-meta's can stay viable and competitive, the better, as players wouldn't get pigeon-holed as quickly. It is the same reason I'd prefer Bleed still be able to bypass armor and instead have the armor scaling and/or associated DR numbers adjusted.

I'm surprised you'd want to see the change to Toxin. It may sound like the go-to choice vs shield, but it may not be, since robotic health resists the damage, shielded, armored enemies have damage reduction to their health and (anecdotally) only the toxin damage of a weapon bypasses shields, not all the damage.

Exactly. Only the toxin damage bypasses it and I focus on slash and the other damage type equally, so I just use another damage type.

Bleed armor bypass… well it doesn’t even matter if you have no status chance does it?

Same for toxin.

It’ll be fair to see that mechanic in toxin to go but I really don’t know how I’m supposed to kill these corpus shields without Harrow’s crit.  It takes me 3 mags for some enemies. (And my weapons have incredibly low ammo consumption)

 

I really don’t know what’s going wrong when it comes to corpus.

 

Edited by (PSN)Reaper330011
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2 minutes ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

Exactly. Only the toxin damage bypasses it and I focus on slash and the other damage type equally, so I just use another damage type.

Bleed armor bypass… well it doesn’t even matter if you have no status chance does it?

Same for toxin.

It’ll be fair to see that mechanic in toxin to go but I really don’t know how I’m supposed to kill these corpus shields without Harrow’s crit.  It takes me 3 mags for some enemies. (And my weapons have incredibly low ammo consumption)

 

I'm not sure how far you are into the game and or where your damage lies, but you will reach a point where whatever works on Grineer in SP works on Corpus. That being said, from what I gather you aren't quite there yet. You do have options:

Magnetic does to shields, what Viral does to health: First proc doubles the damage vs shields and each subsequent proc increases that damage by 25% (additive) to a max of 325% at 10 stacks. It also prevents shield regen by 6s and has an innate bonus damage of 75%. It is great vs shields.

Toxin damage bypasses shields, so you can use one weapon to proc Viral stacks and either another weapon, or a Warframe ability, to inflict toxin damage directly to the health of those enemies with the bonus of Viral ensuring extra damage and Toxin damage doing bonus damage to enemies with Flesh (like the Crewmen). Viral isn't needed depending on your damage output, but the bonus damage will be nice.

Cold does extra damage to normal shields (+50%), but not proto shields (neutral). Cold procs will also slow down enemies, helping you be safer (if you find yourself struggling to survive).

Electric damage does no bonus damage to shields, but it does inflict Tesla Chain - a damage over time proc in a 3m AoE, helping spread damage across multiple enemies and can increase your average damage output by quite a lot against a few enemies that have clumped together a bit. It also stuns enemies, giving you more survivability. It does bonus damage against Robotic Health (like MOA's and Ospreys)

I would suggest modding one of your weapons for Magnetic damage, decent status and firing rate (nothing crazy - the first proc gives the biggest bonus of 100% more damage to shields) and trying it out: You'll deplete shields much faster than with something like Slash, but if you don't like magnetic for some reason, there are other options you can use as well.

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7 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

I'm not sure how far you are into the game and or where your damage lies, but you will reach a point where whatever works on Grineer in SP works on Corpus. That being said, from what I gather you aren't quite there yet. You do have options:

Magnetic does to shields, what Viral does to health: First proc doubles the damage vs shields and each subsequent proc increases that damage by 25% (additive) to a max of 325% at 10 stacks. It also prevents shield regen by 6s and has an innate bonus damage of 75%. It is great vs shields.

Toxin damage bypasses shields, so you can use one weapon to proc Viral stacks and either another weapon, or a Warframe ability, to inflict toxin damage directly to the health of those enemies with the bonus of Viral ensuring extra damage and Toxin damage doing bonus damage to enemies with Flesh (like the Crewmen). Viral isn't needed depending on your damage output, but the bonus damage will be nice.

Cold does extra damage to normal shields (+50%), but not proto shields (neutral). Cold procs will also slow down enemies, helping you be safer (if you find yourself struggling to survive).

Electric damage does no bonus damage to shields, but it does inflict Tesla Chain - a damage over time proc in a 3m AoE, helping spread damage across multiple enemies and can increase your average damage output by quite a lot against a few enemies that have clumped together a bit. It also stuns enemies, giving you more survivability. It does bonus damage against Robotic Health (like MOA's and Ospreys)

I would suggest modding one of your weapons for Magnetic damage, decent status and firing rate (nothing crazy - the first proc gives the biggest bonus of 100% more damage to shields) and trying it out: You'll deplete shields much faster than with something like Slash, but if you don't like magnetic for some reason, there are other options you can use as well.

I main a slash/viral/corrosive damage build but I’m not sure what’s going wrong… the corrosive seems to have negative damage on normal shields…. Does slash work on shields? If so I’ll up my status.

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10 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

I'm not sure how far you are into the game and or where your damage lies, but you will reach a point where whatever works on Grineer in SP works on Corpus. That being said, from what I gather you aren't quite there yet. You do have options:

Magnetic does to shields, what Viral does to health: First proc doubles the damage vs shields and each subsequent proc increases that damage by 25% (additive) to a max of 325% at 10 stacks. It also prevents shield regen by 6s and has an innate bonus damage of 75%. It is great vs shields.

Toxin damage bypasses shields, so you can use one weapon to proc Viral stacks and either another weapon, or a Warframe ability, to inflict toxin damage directly to the health of those enemies with the bonus of Viral ensuring extra damage and Toxin damage doing bonus damage to enemies with Flesh (like the Crewmen). Viral isn't needed depending on your damage output, but the bonus damage will be nice.

Cold does extra damage to normal shields (+50%), but not proto shields (neutral). Cold procs will also slow down enemies, helping you be safer (if you find yourself struggling to survive).

Electric damage does no bonus damage to shields, but it does inflict Tesla Chain - a damage over time proc in a 3m AoE, helping spread damage across multiple enemies and can increase your average damage output by quite a lot against a few enemies that have clumped together a bit. It also stuns enemies, giving you more survivability. It does bonus damage against Robotic Health (like MOA's and Ospreys)

I would suggest modding one of your weapons for Magnetic damage, decent status and firing rate (nothing crazy - the first proc gives the biggest bonus of 100% more damage to shields) and trying it out: You'll deplete shields much faster than with something like Slash, but if you don't like magnetic for some reason, there are other options you can use as well.

is there a certain type of corpus with all enemies using proto-shields? (Like Juno or terra or whatever) Because my weapons work equally, and actually MUCH more efficiently on corrupted and regular corpus but they just let me down on certain factions of corpus…

Not sure if I am “there” yet but seeing how I can shred most enemies under level 250 (with Harrow, anything under 400) I’d say my weapons are decent, probably just damage types.

Edited by (PSN)Reaper330011
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7 hours ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

is there a certain type of corpus with all enemies using proto-shields? (Like Juno or terra or whatever) Because my weapons work equally, and actually MUCH more efficiently on corrupted and regular corpus but they just let me down on certain factions of corpus…

Not sure if I am “there” yet but seeing how I can shred most enemies under level 250 (with Harrow, anything under 400) I’d say my weapons are decent, probably just damage types.

Not to my knowledge. Certain variants have higher base stats eg Terra Crewmen have higher health and shield stats than Juno Crewmen at equal level and RJ Corpus units tend to be more durable than non-RJ Corpus.

Sounds like overall damage is decent and that modding for damage types will start showing more noticeable results at level 250 (or 400 with Harrow) against Corpus.

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On 2021-09-27 at 8:36 AM, RazerXPrime said:

While I share this gripe with armor too because the attacks 100% ignore armor which is weird. But when comparing armor and shields they are different. Armor can be pierced. It doesn't have it's own HP bar. Something that cuts through armor can affect what's underneath. Shields function differently. They completely absorb damage. Armor does not.

Perhaps armor can get some sort of buff that gains resistance against certain procs, but no immunity. Shields should be immune to slash procs.

Or have Shields grant Crit immunity.

As long as a unit has some Shields, Crit Multiplier against them is converted to 1.0x.

This would bring some dichotomy to the weapons we use against Corpus and Grineer as well as bridging the ehp disparity.

Bleed is only strong relative to armor scaling as it ignores armor scaling. 99% DR from armor grants 100x ehp, so Bleed which ignores it deals 100x effective damage over neutral damage types.

The problem with this is that such a thing renders +/- resistances pretty much moot.

Corrosive? Radiation? Forget the armor types, Bleed is just better unless the enemy has status immunity.

If armor was just static and Grineer just had insane health scaling, Bleed would be in line with everything else.

Edited by DealerOfAbsolutes
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i have already made a post that covers this in a much wider scope. 

For those who want the TLDR:

The problem we have here:

Slash/Viral being the meta meaning narrow build diversity. It’s not that we don’t have a meta, we have too few. 
 

Solution(s):

(1) Slash no longer bypasses armor. 

The reason for this is because slash completely ignoring armor trivializes other anti-armor damage types such as heat, corrosive and perhaps radiation. A rhetorical question we have to ask is, “why should we use an anti-armor damage type when I can ignore armor in the first place?”

Nerfing slash, however, does not solve this problem, as it will just leave us with less and worse options to deal with this game’s insanely inflated EHP of armored enemies. 

As someone said previously, “what are you going to do with your Vectis Prime when you are told that you can no longer use Hunter Munitions? Use corrosive???” 

Therefore:

 

(2) Armor is now a separate health bar much like shield is. 

This way, it is much easier for DE to deflate the EHP of armored enemies and equalize EHP between different factions. 

A simple example: 

A Grineer unit with 20,000 total health (10,000 cloned flesh + 10,000 alloy armor)

A corpus crewman with 20,00 total health (10,000 corpus flesh + 10,000 corpus shield). 

 

(3) Buff other status types that are inherently inferior (e.g. Impact, Puncture, Blast, Gas).

No matter how much we bring down the power of slash and viral closer to other damage types, no one will still pick Impact, Puncture or Blast as they are inherently inferior.

If I had to use a metaphor, no matter how much we make one good dish expensive, no one will pay to eat S#&$.

I’m sorry but Impact, Puncture and Blast deserve a large buff. 
 

One nuance I HAVE TO add to avoid confusion.

The problem I’m suggesting about narrow diversity magnifies as the enemy level increases where the EHP gap between factions amplifies. In other words, this problem is not visible in star chart or even in Sortie content. 

Non-slash/viral builds are completely viable for most of star chart content, and corrosive-brute force build is still equally strong up to a certain level in Steel Path. 
 

Aright ty for reading have a great day 

Edited by LucentLuastra
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On 2021-09-27 at 9:58 AM, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

First of all I’m getting seriously irritated by the way you refer to us as “you people”.

Second of all do you even have a valid reason as to why we SHOULDN’T post bout balance, endgame and challenge?

First of all, I'm not saying you shouldn't post about balance, endgame and challenge. You surely can make a post about it but when so many things that is out of power such as Chroma that can easily reach 8x damage increase on 300% strength, how do you make balance, endgame and challenge if not nerfing so many things first? Surely you will struggle again in Steel Path if everything gets balanced

On 2021-09-27 at 9:58 AM, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

Weapons make damage abilities useless, but damage abilities can have different affects.

For example Harrow’ Covenant. It makes your weapons insanely OP and temporarily immortalises you. Can weapons do that?

GLOOM slows enemies and gives your weapons lifesteal. Can weapons do that?

Thurible can ENERGY RESTORE. Can weapons do that?

Nekros summons dead people to fight for him, and has so many uses and deals so much damage. Can your weapons do that?

SARYN CAN KILL A WHOLE MAP IN A SECOND. Can any weapon do that?

Abilities outperform weapons in every way because they have more uses then just damage but most of this game requires damage, so everything is basically the same.

You gave more reason to nerf lots of parts of this game if you prefer to have this game not requiring damage on most of the game

On 2021-09-27 at 1:27 PM, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

The reason we can just turn off all the enemies with a single button is because they have 1 IQ (Excluding Corrupted, they set up so many ambushes in the map they kill me before I can press a button sometimes). 70% of the bullets miss, they’re easy to kill because they just stand still like statues as they get shot (kahl be movin, that’s how he’s alive… unless erra killed him),  huh..

 Mesa and Saryn don’t care. Right.

It's more than just Mesa and Saryn
- Ash can go invisible and storm enemies with blade storm without them knowing what you do
- Atlas can petrify enemies, making them basically unable to do a thing
- Banshee basically stun enemies for a short moment with silence or outright make them unable to fight back using sound quake
- Baruuk puts enemies into sleep, making them have nearly zero threat
- Harrow can chain enemies in place, making them inactive
- Limbo is basically freeze anyone with stasis inside the rift, nothing can move nor do anything
- Nezha just impale anyone dare to come close with Divine Spears, making them as dangerous as BBQ meat on skewers
- Khora make enemies useless with Strangledome
- Vauban locks enemies in place with Bastille and Tether
- Volt stuns enemies with Shock or Overload

That's just some of things that turn off all enemies, not to mention with range build you can simply use abilities and they'll turned off no matter if they're standing still in the open or behind cover. Remove abilities to turn off enemies even when they stand still and you will see the difference

On 2021-09-27 at 1:27 PM, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

Seriously we can 1 shot literally anything in the game so I don’t really see how giving the enemies a buff will make the weapons go down to the D tier.

You buff enemies, anything that doesn't able to deal damage will instantly thrown to D tier so it would save more time and effort nerfing the "S-tier" to make them more in line to those that aren't on S tier. Let's say you buff enemies, those that can't kill them as fast as Kuva Bramma will be dismissed and left behind. You buff weapons to catch up, enemies will feel weak again and you buff again. Repeat and it's Diablo with its insane numbers so it would make sense to nerf a handful of weapons than buffing hundreds after you buff enemies

On 2021-09-27 at 1:27 PM, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

Bro it works the same thing around. Nerf the enemies, too easy to kill. Nerf the weapons, we won’t be able to kill anything. 

Nerf the outliers, those that below the outliers won't be affected while those outliers will be on similar level. No need to nerf everything

On 2021-09-27 at 1:27 PM, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

Smarter AI means that the players will find it HARDER to shut them off or maybe IMPOSSIBLE to shut them off without thinking about it. The most fun in this game for me is running a 5 hour steel path survival at a camp with spectres everywhere, and even then I find things… well on SP it’s not very easy is it? It’s not supposed to be but somehow for most advanced players, it is. Just grab a Kuva Zarr, mod it, forma it, catalyst it, then you’ll 1 shot anything in the game! 

And look why : Kuva Zarr has high base damage with up to 841 base damage, coupled with 2.5x base critical multiplier you can reach up to 5,5x with Vital Sense. Add Serration and you're seeing 2228.65 damage with 12,2257 on critical. Unless we tone down either the base damage or critical damage, what is the reason to use single target weapons?

On 2021-09-27 at 1:27 PM, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

If enemies MOVE, we’ll have to use those aiming skills we all have because we can’t bomb them if they are out of the aoe  range right? The solution can be done without buffing or nerfing anything and yes true I may have exaggerated on the “easy simple” 🤔.

And how often they will survive when the bombs easily reach them and kill them?

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On 2021-09-27 at 5:30 PM, Silligoose said:

Dragon Age has Penetrating Damage that can bypass armor. In Path of Exile magic damage bypasses armor. In Dota Pure Damage bypasses armor. Various games have various armor- and associated damage reduction mechanics, which have mechanics that can bypass that.

And for comparison, how easy you can access it? And how big is the effect? Right now with slash you can treat grineer armor like they're not wearing armor at all, up to 90x damage you said on certain level. Also don't you find it ironic slash as damage type that doesn't fare well against armor is the best damage type fighting armor, and how our "True" damage is no longer true where it's negated by shields?

On 2021-09-27 at 5:30 PM, Silligoose said:

Your argument is "most games don't have it, so Warframe shouldn't". Most games don't have bullet jumping. Does that mean we shouldn't have bullet jumping either? Most games don't have aim-glide. Does that mean we shouldn't have aim-glide either? Most games don't have wall-latching. Does that mean we shouldn't have wall-latching either? Most games don't have damage based on different types of physical and elemental damage. Does that mean Warframe shouldn't either? By your logic, many of the mechanics that make Warframe more unique, that makes Warframe, Warframe, shouldn't exist and Waframe should be a generic copy-cat game wheere you run and shoot. Basing mechanic validity on whether or not "most games" have such a mechanic is foolish - if developers used that as a metric, we wouldn't have any innovation in games.

And you're taking my words out of context, but some people in this forum want warframe to be a generic copy-cat of "overcoming hurdles" and ground based shooter where things like Railjack is for another game instead of being in warframe

On 2021-09-27 at 5:30 PM, Silligoose said:

Address the actual problem: Reduce armor scaling and/or associated damage reduction (edit: keep current armor bypassing, full armor stripping and toxin mechanics as is). Increase EHP enemies to not get blown up instantly. Net result? We have also achieved the goal of having more durable enemies at end-game overall, with offensive options to players being more in balance. The cost? No mechanics were lost and specialized strategies and tactics have not lost their viability. Variety is greater compared to the above approach, resulting in the game having greater tactical depth as compared to the above scenario.

Let's say we set armor scaling on heavy grineer unit to 1200 at cap, wreck it down with corrosive at 80% on max stack and you have heavy grineer unit with only 240 armor, leaving it at 44.4% damage reduction. While other elements are viable to fight it, slash is still king since slash treats it like having 0 armor, making it coming out on top on dealing with armor. Couple it with increased EHP and it goes back to the square one, slash being the best to deal with armor. Not to mention it scales with critical and viral, making 45k damage tick possible. Another problem is those without damage buff will be struggling while DPS like Chroma can just scoff at it with 8x damage boost so support roles is unnecessary

If you can give me a proposal to make slash still able to bypass armor but not treating enemies as if they have 0 armor and make support roles having bigger importance, I'm all ears.

On 2021-09-27 at 5:30 PM, Silligoose said:

Proper balance at end-game ensures various viable tactics and loadouts can be used, without the most effective tactic available completely outperforming other options to a massive degree, ie players don't get pigeon-holed into the meta by force. Your suggestion, however, would.

You miss the forest for the trees. Slash being as strong as it is vs armor (though not the strongest vs armor, as shown previously) is a symptom of armor scaling and associated damage reduction being out of balance, which is the problem. You want to treat only one of several symptoms, instead of treating the problem.

Is it? Since I'm pretty sure end-game more often than not pigeon-hole players into the meta with all kind of equipment available or you will struggle to finish a phase.

Armor stripping is too much? Put a hard cap on how many armor you can strip. Let's say corrosive reducing up to 90% armor with armor stripping abilities also removing only up to 90%. Now you have two equal ways to deal with armor. You can use either one or use in tandem for maximum result

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2 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

First of all, I'm not saying you shouldn't post about balance, endgame and challenge. You surely can make a post about it but when so many things that is out of power such as Chroma that can easily reach 8x damage increase on 300% strength, how do you make balance, endgame and challenge if not nerfing so many things first? Surely you will struggle again in Steel Path if everything gets balanced

Nerf some stuff. Not everything.

then buff some stuff. Not everything.

All I’M saying is that nerfing literally everything as a whole isn’t the solution. 
 

2 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Ash can go invisible and storm enemies with blade storm without them knowing what you do
- Atlas can petrify enemies, making them basically unable to do a thing
- Banshee basically stun enemies for a short moment with silence or outright make them unable to fight back using sound quake
- Baruuk puts enemies into sleep, making them have nearly zero threat
- Harrow can chain enemies in place, making them inactive
- Limbo is basically freeze anyone with stasis inside the rift, nothing can move nor do anything
- Nezha just impale anyone dare to come close with Divine Spears, making them as dangerous as BBQ meat on skewers
- Khora make enemies useless with Strangledome
- Vauban locks enemies in place with Bastille and Tether
- Volt stuns enemies with Shock or Overload

That's just some of things that turn off all enemies, not to mention with range build you can simply use abilities and they'll turned off no matter if they're standing still in the open or behind cover. Remove abilities to turn off enemies even when they stand still and you will see the difference

You have a good point here however,

Again the reason we can turn off enemies is because they just stand.  Harrow chains enemies in place, because they move in 1 direction, not 1 enemy has been able to evade it yet.

 Limbo can freeze anybody in the rift. You can’t evade his banish, but maybe just don’t go inside the black hole?

no comment on the other ones since I haven’t used most of those frames.

Some of your examples are undodgable. Some aren’t.
enemies solution to not get turned off: dodge.

2 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

You buff enemies, anything that doesn't able to deal damage will instantly thrown to D tier so it would save more time and effort nerfing the "S-tier" to make them more in line to those that aren't on S tier. Let's say you buff enemies, those that can't kill them as fast as Kuva Bramma will be dismissed and left behind. You buff weapons to catch up, enemies will feel weak again and you buff again. Repeat and it's Diablo with its insane numbers so it would make sense to nerf a handful of weapons than buffing hundreds after you buff enemies

Let’s say there’s a enemy with a 1500 total armor. We kill it easily right?

ok we increase EHP a bit more, more health to take down, more damage reduction.

Damn we can still kill it easily. Buff it a bit more?

Ok we buff the EHP and armor a bit.

The weapons are struggling a bit more. We’re getting there.

We buff it a few more times until we reach a point where the S Tier weapons CAN’T 1 shot anything, but instead take 3-5 full powered shots. The A tier weapons on steel path will do what a level 15 B tier will do to a level 35 grineer heavy gunner. 
 

You want a bit more power? Give it more damage mods, now your A tier gun does as much damage as a max rank B tier gun does to a level 35 grineer soldiers. 
 

We need to find a point where no weapon can 1 shot everything but the majority of weapons still do satisfactory damage if we want balance.

2 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Nerf the outliers, those that below the outliers won't be affected while those outliers will be on similar level. No need to nerf everything

Outliers?

 

2 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And how often they will survive when the bombs easily reach them and kill them?

(Excluding akarius or acceltra) you actually need to aim at the enemies to hit them right? If the bombs hit them their dead. If they don’t hit them, they don’t die. How to make sure they don’t get hit? Give them some speeeed. When aoe is coming give them some mechanic which makes them try to run away, so you’ll need to predict their direction to see where you can hit them.

 

2 hours ago, Deevy said:

I wholeheartedly believe that every thread you start is nothing but bait. 

I haven’t viewed his other threads… but bait for what?

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3 hours ago, Deevy said:

I wholeheartedly believe that every thread you start is nothing but bait. 

Ahhh I see. I saw his “illegal build” thread. 

At first glance it looks like bait to get DE to start nerfing everything, and that ruins the fun  For everyone… 
why share illegal builds? Yeah just by looking at that thread I understand, but I could be wrong.

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9 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And for comparison, how easy you can access it? And how big is the effect? Right now with slash you can treat grineer armor like they're not wearing armor at all, up to 90x damage you said on certain level. Also don't you find it ironic slash as damage type that doesn't fare well against armor is the best damage type fighting armor, and how our "True" damage is no longer true where it's negated by shields?

Go ask in Dragon Age forums and then argue it shouldn't be in that game because it isn't in most other games. With slash you still treat enemies as though they have armor since Slash damage itself does get reduced by armor.. Sure, it's ironic. 

9 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And you're taking my words out of context, but some people in this forum want warframe to be a generic copy-cat of "overcoming hurdles" and ground based shooter where things like Railjack is for another game instead of being in warframe

I was showing that stating a mechanic should not be in Warframe because it isn't in other games is not sufficient. There are indeed people who don't think Railjack should be in Warframe, but I certainly hope the reasoning isn't "because it is not in other games". It is not a reason that can be taken seriously. Discuss the feature. Discuss the impact the feature has on the game. If you are lobbying for the removal of a feature or mechanic, discuss and explore how the removal of that mechanic will impact the game for the better and for the worse. I'm still waiting for you to do that: Explore how Warframe will operate if the bypassing of armor is removed from Bleed.  How are people going to play against Grineer? Is it better, or worse? Are players going to use one specific tactic only because it far outperforms tactics? 

What happens if your solution is employed? 

9 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Let's say we set armor scaling on heavy grineer unit to 1200 at cap, wreck it down with corrosive at 80% on max stack and you have heavy grineer unit with only 240 armor, leaving it at 44.4% damage reduction. While other elements are viable to fight it, slash is still king since slash treats it like having 0 armor, making it coming out on top on dealing with armor. Couple it with increased EHP and it goes back to the square one, slash being the best to deal with armor. Not to mention it scales with critical and viral, making 45k damage tick possible. Another problem is those without damage buff will be struggling while DPS like Chroma can just scoff at it with 8x damage boost so support roles is unnecessary

If you can give me a proposal to make slash still able to bypass armor but not treating enemies as if they have 0 armor and make support roles having bigger importance, I'm all ears.

Let us explore. I'd have loved if you gave an EHP value, but I will use the EHP of a lvl 120 Heavy Gunner on Steel Path. Currently, that EHP is about 5,371,250. For your armor cap (1200) and associated damage reduction (80%), this unit will need 1,042,250 health to maintain that EHP. That's a lot HP to chew through with Bleed if you are looking at only 45,000 tick damage ( that can be increased though depending on the weapon and various buffs).

First up is the King vs armor: Armor stripping: One press, armor gone. Damage reduction gone. All that is needed is something that can take out a little over 1,000,000 HP

Here are lategame builds that takes care of the enemy quick (make sure to enable conditionals to see how much damage it actually does). they are ok, but they aren't S Tier weapons and the mod config isn't minmaxed.

Tenora Prime build: Kills armor stripped enemy in a little under 2 seconds. A little over 1 second with headshots. This doesn't even account for Viral Procs. No need for additional Warframe buffs. I can improve the build and bring the time to kill lower, but it isn't needed:
https://overframe.gg/build/new/5396/tenora-prime/?bs=WzEsNTM5NiwzMCwxLFtbNjI1LDUsMF0sWzU4Miw1LDFdLFs2NTIsNSwwXSxbNjExLDEwLDBdLFs1ODQsNSwxXSxbNjI2LDEwLDBdLFs1NTIwLDEwLDBdLFs1NTE5LDEwLDBdLFswLDAsMV0sWzU1MDUsNSwwXV1d

Vectis Build: 2-shots this enemy with headshots, one-shots if the snipe combo counter has been built a little and Deadhead's additional headshot bonus is taken into account (it can do more than 50% overdamage).  No need for additional Warframe  buffs or viral stacks:
https://overframe.gg/build/new/1234/vectis/?bs=WzEsMTIzNCwzMCwxLFtbNjE3LDMsMF0sWzIzODQsMTAsMF0sWzYyNSw1LDBdLFs1NTE5LDEwLDBdLFs1NTIwLDEwLDBdLFs2MDQsNSwwXSxbNjUyLDUsMF0sWzYxMSwxMCwxXSxbMCwwLDFdLFs1NTA3LDUsMF1dXQ==

Bleeds are nice, but they still will not compete with Armor Stripping - they take longer due to procs and need more additional procs from frames and viral to compete.

Assuming I don't use full stripping, but a teammate reduces the armor by 80% with 40% Damage Reduction still applied, so EHP is around 1,600,000. Swapping the above Tenora Prime build to corrosive will take out the enemy in 2 - 3 seconds with a few headshots in there. Swap the Vectis to Corrosive and it can still can two-shot the enemy. Bleed cannot compete with that upfront damage.

Assuming no armor reduction, it will start to take long enough for Bleed to compete and be a tool in the player Arsenal, since Bleed can bypass the damage reduction mechanic associated with Armor.

I think you overestimate how strong Bleed is in terms of a raw damage multiplier. Simplified, it can increase the raw damage output of a weapon by 210% over a period of 6 seconds. That's only a 35% increase in raw Damage Per Second, provided it procs with every hit. With bane mods it can increased more, but it isn't some crazy powerful raw damage multiplier. The only reason it is considered strong now, is because of the current armor scaling and associated damage reduction and is still sufficiently strong (also not king) against Corpus.

Go ahead and work out how long Bleed procs will take. That 45,000 tick damage you mentioned will still be useful tool if it can bypass armor and a player decides they don't want to bother with armor stripping or substantial armor reduction, but it still won't be the King. 

9 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Is it? Since I'm pretty sure end-game more often than not pigeon-hole players into the meta with all kind of equipment available or you will struggle to finish a phase.

Armor stripping is too much? Put a hard cap on how many armor you can strip. Let's say corrosive reducing up to 90% armor with armor stripping abilities also removing only up to 90%. Now you have two equal ways to deal with armor. You can use either one or use in tandem for maximum result

Honestly, I've considered making the suggestion of complete armor stripping capping at 90%, or even 95%, or 99%, but upon considering the impact that would have, I realized it is a solution to one of the symptoms, not the actual problem. DE can continue to provide solutions for symptoms and change various mechanics by taking away tools and variety, or they can implement a solution that addresses the problem and opens up more viable tools. 

End-game in various games pigeon-holes players into the meta when that meta vastly outperforms non-meta. That is currently the case with armor stripping and virial+slash. If the current meta doesn't outperform non-meta to a large degree, players don't get pigeon-holed into it nearly as quickly, or at all. Your example of an armor cap is a good example: The most effective tactic available is still armor stripping, but since there is a cap on armor and the associated damage reduction, various options are available.

Tenora: Use Ember, armor strip, kill the lvl enemy in 2 seconds or less. or you can go Chroma, no Armor strip, use Warframe buffs and still kill the enemy in less than 2 seconds. Use Nezha's Blazing Chakram, no armor strip, but damage vulnerability x 2.2 (modded) kill the enemy in just over 2 seconds, you can reduce armor and still be fairly efficient.

Vectis: Armor strip. One-shot the enemy. Reduce armor: 1 - 2 shot the enemy. No armor strip, but use Chroma for damage buff: One-shot the enemy. No armor Strip, but use Nezha' Blazing Charkram. 1 - 2 shot the enemy. 

You can use Bleed to get kills around the same efficiency, maybe a little slower due to it's DoT mechanic.

See how many options have opened up because the problem, armor scaling and associated damage reduction, has been a addressed?

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12 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

That's just some of things that turn off all enemies, not to mention with range build you can simply use abilities and they'll turned off no matter if they're standing still in the open or behind cover. Remove abilities to turn off enemies even when they stand still and you will see the difference

 

Did you suggest that Crowd Control abilities... no longer crowd control? So, you basically want to delete CC from the game?

 

Just trying to keep a checklist here of all the things you want removed or nerfed. So far you'd like

-All damage types nerfed into the ground

-All scaling damage abilities to be non-scaling and weak

-All CC abilities to basically be removed (Let alone not thinking about the consequences to frames that basically ARE CC like Vauban)

 

I am leaning towards so many others here who are convinced that you are trolling, determined to just cry out as loud as possible to see if you can get DE to just blanket nerf things into the ground to get some sort of self-chuckle out of how many people that would irritate. Just the simple fact that you even suggested that CC abilities should be removed blows my mind entirely. 

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8 hours ago, x570Belmont said:

am leaning towards so many others here who are convinced that you are trolling, determined to just cry out as loud as possible to see if you can get DE to just blanket nerf things into the ground to get some sort of self-chuckle out of how many people that would irritate. Just the simple fact that you even suggested that CC abilities should be removed blows my mind entirely. 

Yup. I can’t even believe it right now…

 

 

8 hours ago, x570Belmont said:

All damage types nerfed into the ground

-All scaling damage abilities to be non-scaling and weak

-All CC abilities to basically be removed (Let alone not thinking about the consequences to frames that basically ARE CC like Vauban)

1. No reason for it. This thread popped up out of nowhere.

2. Why? They exist for a reason.

3. The consequences is that the entire point of tons of abilities and frames will be removed, crippling the Tenno. Also think about those CC uses! A lot of frames strength comes from their CC abilities so removing one of them will destroy the whole frame.

 

 

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20 hours ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

You have a good point here however,

Again the reason we can turn off enemies is because they just stand.  Harrow chains enemies in place, because they move in 1 direction, not 1 enemy has been able to evade it yet.

 Limbo can freeze anybody in the rift. You can’t evade his banish, but maybe just don’t go inside the black hole?

With enough range, they don't even have any chance to dodge the chains and what should they do to prevent you from finishing your mission when you use Limbo? Put cataclysm and stasis on mobile defense and no one can touch the mission, basically making it AFK mission until you're done if they don't go inside so what is your solution to make it challenging?

20 hours ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

enemies solution to not get turned off: dodge.

Even a human player secretly put into your game session won't be able to do anything unless enemies are Usain Bolt level of fast to be able to dodge, unless you can dodge a grenade with 7m radius coming at you at 30 m/s. That means you only have a second to run 7 meters to dodge and average human running speed is roughly 3.5 m/s, not enough to dodge anything. Not to mention many of warframe abilities easily cover 20+ meters with some range build so tell me, how can they dodge them?

20 hours ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

Let’s say there’s a enemy with a 1500 total armor. We kill it easily right?

ok we increase EHP a bit more, more health to take down, more damage reduction.

Damn we can still kill it easily. Buff it a bit more?

Ok we buff the EHP and armor a bit.

The weapons are struggling a bit more. We’re getting there.

We buff it a few more times until we reach a point where the S Tier weapons CAN’T 1 shot anything, but instead take 3-5 full powered shots. The A tier weapons on steel path will do what a level 15 B tier will do to a level 35 grineer heavy gunner. 
 

You want a bit more power? Give it more damage mods, now your A tier gun does as much damage as a max rank B tier gun does to a level 35 grineer soldiers. 
 

We need to find a point where no weapon can 1 shot everything but the majority of weapons still do satisfactory damage if we want balance.

And your suggestion makes B tier gun unable to perform beyond level 35, making it useless and only A tier gun and S tier gun viable to deal with them, shoehorning players choice so what's the point of making so many guns if you end up using only a handful of them? Would make more sense nerfing the "A tier" and "S tier" guns to not overperform other guns and keep in mind that warframe doesn't use your mainstream D - S tier guns

20 hours ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

Outliers?

Like Kuva Bramma, Kuva Zarr, those who can wreck anything without much investment if you want the so called challenge

20 hours ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

(Excluding akarius or acceltra) you actually need to aim at the enemies to hit them right? If the bombs hit them their dead. If they don’t hit them, they don’t die. How to make sure they don’t get hit? Give them some speeeed. When aoe is coming give them some mechanic which makes them try to run away, so you’ll need to predict their direction to see where you can hit them.

Go on, you can try avoiding one considering many explosives in warframe has more or less half of real-life grenade velocity (40 mm M203 grenade launcher has 250 ft/s or 76 m/s launch velocity). And with how often our mission involves small rooms and corridor, and explosives ignoring cover there's no way you can avoid that

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12 hours ago, Silligoose said:

See how many options have opened up because the problem, armor scaling and associated damage reduction, has been a addressed?

But it doesn't address how you give those without armor strip or damage buff bigger importance since those without may be able to fight more comfortably but not needed in a team where chroma can just blast them away with 8x damage from Vex Armor, making CC and support have little to no importance. If DE removes true damage from bleed, that means those with armor strip or CC will be needed to keep the pressure from DPS and healer will be important to keep the team alive, making it similar to eidolon where DPS and support need to work together, not just going full DPS and ignore other roles or abilities

 

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11 hours ago, x570Belmont said:

Did you suggest that Crowd Control abilities... no longer crowd control? So, you basically want to delete CC from the game?

Do you really need to jump into that conclusion? I'm not suggesting to remove CC, I'm suggesting to tone CC to not completely turn off enemies.

Example

Divine Spears : No longer make enemies hanging helplessly in midair, you simply root them to the ground, making them unable to move but still able to shoot with greatly reduced accuracy

Stasis : No longer stops enemies, slows down enemies when banished and even slower when reaching the center of cataclysm/Limbo, making them able to fight but not as effective

Bastille : Slows with gradual armor stripping

Now CC can still control the battlefield, but not to the point of removing them from the fight.

11 hours ago, x570Belmont said:

All scaling damage abilities to be non-scaling and weak

Look, if all abilities scale to enemy level, at what level you set the "endgame"? Let's say we cap the abilities to deal damage reliably at level 100, that means our power progression stops at level 100 and that's when the "endgame" starts. Also, the so called "challenge" more often than not puts you against stronger enemies to put the pressure on you so yes, if they still want the endgame and challenge, scaling abilities are a mistake.

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12 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Do you really need to jump into that conclusion? I'm not suggesting to remove CC, I'm suggesting to tone CC to not completely turn off enemies.

But that’s the whole point of CC isn’t it?

 

13 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Stasis : No longer stops enemies, slows down enemies when banished and even slower when reaching the center of cataclysm/Limbo, making them able to fight but not as effective

It’s called STASIS. They need to be frozen. And stasis is the reason limbo can be Defense king too, and the reason rift surge and banish works.

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3 minutes ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

But that’s the whole point of CC isn’t it?

Didn't you want challenge? If CC turns off enemies, no challenge will present and CC isn't just about turning off enemies. CC can mean partial disable, preventing enemies from overwhelming you while still able to fight back to make the fight not completely dead.

7 minutes ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

It’s called STASIS. They need to be frozen. And stasis is the reason limbo can be Defense king too, and the reason rift surge and banish works.

And how do you make them able to fight you when you're basically removing the fight itself?

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