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Does the particular tactic in the Plague star belongs to bug or a abusive tactic, which should be fixed?


Aquapisces
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Today I was in the plain, attending a team for plague star. When we come to the stage two, one of my teammate pointed a place, and asked us to go there  30 seconds before the end of stage 2. Sometimes it's a little boil near the big one, or near the lake. When I ask him why, he replied:

"Where we are at the end of the stage 2 decides where the drone spawns in the stage 3. Now we all come to the pointed spot and wait for the end of stage 2, and at the beginning of stage 3,the drone will spawn near from the boil, approximately 200m.'

Compared to the conventional tactic, in this can we dramatically reduce the time of stage 3 in Plague star. With loki or nova my teammates were able to finish stage 3 in less than 10 seconds. I wonder, DE has been working to eliminate any bugs or abusive tactics. So, is this so-called tactic a kind of unauthorized way, which should also be fixed, like making the spawn point of drone fixed, nearly 500m away from the big boil......

 

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I'd count it as an exploit. A very handy one, as the distance for the drone can be very long and tedious without it, but an exploit nonetheless. 

It would be nice if the distance of the drone stage was roughly the same each time, it could even remove the apparent necessity to use this exploit. I don't like using exploits, and this isn't something I would actively try to do, but I have followed the directions when told to do it in squads and it does help prevent feeling burnt out playing the same mode over and over. Escorting a drone is just a generally tedious mission across all games(maybe a couple exceptions but can't really think of any), I do like people being able to use loki/nova to speed up the drone stage and feel that isn't an exploit, but the distance for the drone can be really unforgiving. I'm not a fan of escort missions usually though so it would be on the bottom of my list of enjoyed mission types along with defection. 

I'd prefer the drone to move faster (between warframe running speed and bullet jumping momentum) and require several hacks along the way. Though I haven't thought that idea out much. 

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the drone itself is a buggy mess, this tactic saves time and doesn't break anything in game. if not for this, the drone location can be 1k+m sometimes, and just think of making the drone travel without any external help, that's waste of 2-3minute or more if there is no straight path.

 

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Sounds like an exploit. I say point it out at least, and DE will do what they will. They might anger the rapid-grinding part of their playerbase, they might leave it like it is. It might be so low priority and unimportant that they might not bother; never know

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
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19 minutes ago, Aquapisces said:

Today I was in the plain, attending a team for plague star. When we come to the stage two, one of my teammate pointed a place, and asked us to go there  30 seconds before the end of stage 2. Sometimes it's a little boil near the big one, or near the lake. When I ask him why, he replied:

"Where we are at the end of the stage 2 decides where the drone spawns in the stage 3. Now we all come to the pointed spot and wait for the end of stage 2, and at the beginning of stage 3,the drone will spawn near from the boil, approximately 200m.'

Compared to the conventional tactic, in this can we dramatically reduce the time of stage 3 in Plague star. With loki or nova my teammates were able to finish stage 3 in less than 10 seconds. I wonder, DE has been working to eliminate any bugs or abusive tactics. So, is this so-called tactic a kind of unauthorized way, which should also be fixed, like making the spawn point of drone fixed, nearly 500m away from the big boil......

 

Technically just because you stand in certain place and 1 person is teleporting to that spot with toxin does not make you do something against the rules
Same as force spawning vomvalysts on eidolon hunts (unless its patched didnt do them in a long time)

We could argue that rescuing prisoner on plains (where he fallows you) could fall under bug abusing if you just wait at destination point or tele there with AW

But then again i think we had in EULA something about using any in game features to make game dont work as intended and getting advantages because of that is bug abusing
But then again we have case with 3rd party auto clickers and stuff where its not prohibited while you still can get banned for it

Anyway this is definition of exploit and example of for what you could get banned
Where you use something you can do to do something you should not be able to do

 

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It is an exploit.

One can also use hydroid to grab the hemocyte and pull it out of the boil. not sure if that would fall under exploit.

The loki/nova teleports are no exploits. However I'd love if it could also receive movement speed buffs from other frames to provide more alternatives to the current must have loki to do efficiently. He would still be better but at least we could opt for other choices so we have our volt shield or zephyr turbulence buffs etc for the other phases.

In general plague star still feels wonky in design just like the rest of the plains do. Not that any open-worlds feel completely working to me... they are simply to full of bugs and glitches to feel as finished and DE clearly gave up on trying to fix (all) the bugs properly. The plains are almost 4 years old, yet we all know that PoE 2.0 isn't going to remove bugs... it will most likely be nothing more but a visual overhaul.

Waypoints, mission timers, host migrations, wall clipping, objectives (instantly) failing, archwing launcher, etc. they are all still in a miserable shape. The biggest issues have been fixed, but some basic issues are still very much present.

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I want to say first that i only played Plague Star on its first appearence and now to get the Ghoul Saw (which already takes 23k standing i think?).

 

Now to the point: DE could ask themselves why there is so much hassle with the Drone Stage that the whole playerbase is basically trying to find a way to make it as short as possible. The answer would be simple... its incredibly boring (always have been that way since the introduction of the first Drone Bounty) and you have to do it several times just to get the "normal" rewards, not talking about farming Forma.

 

The right approach would be that they rethink the mission design and find ways to make it more appealing and rewarding. If players would find it just a little bit more fun to play they would probably not go for these methods to "cheese" it (ofc there will be always players who try to optimize it as much as possible).

 

But like @Quimothsaid, in almost 4 years all we got was a visual overhaul and some minor tweaks on numbers here and there. The core systems and problems rarely get addressed in a meaningful manner. 90% of bounties in PoE are (mobile) Defense Missions, Plague Star included. Naturally, players try to find a way around it.

 

It should be clear, but i still want to point out that i'm not saying that it is good that the players do this.

I would prefer it by alot if the mission itself would be fun, engaging and rewarding to play with more methods/frames being able to interact with the drone.

And if that would be the case, at least i wouldn't care if the Drone Stage would always be 500m+, but this way i am not even gonna play it anymore.

 

Edit: Just one quick example on how to make this more interesting to play, its really not that hard if you really want to improve the mission design:

  1. more enemies! (right now, 3 out of 4 people can go fishing and the drone will still make it without problems)
  2. enemies drop fuel cells which you can bring to the drone like in an excavation mission
  3. those fuel cells make the drone go faster
  4. if you want to make it really engaging, add some risk/reward mechanic: fuel cells make the drone go faster, but it can also get destroyed faster

 

Done.

All of a sudden, you have a somewhat interesting mission which gives all players something to do and gives you some space to improve your performance.

You dont have to reinvent the wheel to get something decent, i just mashed together some basic mechanics which are already in the game in 30 seconds of thinking about it.

Edited by DreisterDino
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1 hour ago, Quimoth said:

It is an exploit.

 

Would you consider optimizing the spawn of Vomvalysts as an exploit (something people do in Eidolon hunts for 4 years now)? It's the same principle. I feel like an exploit should be reserved for gamebreaking behavior, not being clever with mechanics.

Edited by Voltage
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40 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Would you consider optimizing the spawn of Vomvalysts as an exploit (something people do in Eidolon hunts for 4 years now)? It's the same principle. I feel like an exploit should be reserved for gamebreaking behavior, not being clever with mechanics.

 
In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, speed or level design etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers; however, the precise determination of what is or is not considered an exploit can be controversial.
 
I would definitely argue that the drone spawning glitch is an exploit, because not only does it speed up the mission, it also actually DISABLES spawns/situations that were intended.
 
The vomvalysts spawn optimization is further from the exploit criteria for me simply because it still doesn't disable/remove a full part of the mission.
 
Edited by Quimoth
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There's ZERO LOGICAL REASON why if we stand in that spot, drone should spawn closer to the boil. Whoever found it must've tinkered with codes or logs, not told by konzu secret dialogue or something.

It's 100% in the codes -not in the lore. which yes made it an exploit, but players are exploiting it for good reason. That bounty stage is boring as heck even with lokis and novas.

DE well realize that players are farming PS for formas, and they should let us do it in 7 minutes instead of 10 minutes. It's only 3 meaningless minutes for DE, but that 3 minutes makes players happy and DE should allow it.

Taking out something that makes players happy, just because they're desperate to prolong login time by measly 3 minutes is pathetic. If players are happy, they'll login longer. I swear to God if DE patch this i will quit farming PS.

Edited by Soy77
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vor 11 Minuten schrieb Quimoth:
 
In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, speed or level design etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers; however, the precise determination of what is or is not considered an exploit can be controversial.
 
I would definitely argue that the drone spawning glitch is an exploit, because not only does it speed up the mission, it also actually DISABLES spawns/situations that were intended.
 
The vomvalysts spawn optimization is further from the exploit criteria for me simply because it still doesn't disable/remove a full part of the mission.
 

The next bounty stage spawning somewhat in proximity to you is intended and the HP bar on these drones might aswell say infinite. You arent removing anything, just shortening the by design most boring part of it. The important part of this conversation however is if it is (or should be) a punishable exploit, otherwise we're just arguing semantics.

The affinity farm on exploiter orb (no pun intended) where you just stealth killed all of the spawning coolant raknoids from a great distance was clearly not intended to work that way and DE adressed that very quickly. Yet nobody got punished for it because all players did was to use game mechanics that were intended and functioning correctly, DE simply gave those coolant raknoids too much affinity for their liking

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I don't feel like it's an exploit. Similar things are done in Eidolon hunts to make specific things spawn in specific places, or even to find good camping spots in survival missions where enemies can't spawn behind you. All you're really doing is only having a single location within range when it picks one.

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if DE just made the drone fly at much higher speed, nobody would even have to go looking for exploits and strategies to move the drone in the first place. it's not like we wouldn't be able to keep up with the drone; we pilot freaking ninjas that can jump over small houses. there's no good reason for the drone to be so slow, and enemies can still shoot at it no matter how fast it moves, since most grineer use hitscan weapons anyway, and Dargyns have no trouble keeping up either.

 

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3 hours ago, Aquapisces said:

Today I was in the plain, attending a team for plague star. When we come to the stage two, one of my teammate pointed a place, and asked us to go there  30 seconds before the end of stage 2. Sometimes it's a little boil near the big one, or near the lake. When I ask him why, he replied:

"Where we are at the end of the stage 2 decides where the drone spawns in the stage 3. Now we all come to the pointed spot and wait for the end of stage 2, and at the beginning of stage 3,the drone will spawn near from the boil, approximately 200m.'

Compared to the conventional tactic, in this can we dramatically reduce the time of stage 3 in Plague star. With loki or nova my teammates were able to finish stage 3 in less than 10 seconds. I wonder, DE has been working to eliminate any bugs or abusive tactics. So, is this so-called tactic a kind of unauthorized way, which should also be fixed, like making the spawn point of drone fixed, nearly 500m away from the big boil......

 

It's actually based on the Host's location when stage 3 starts. All you need is for the host to go to the drone spawn location nearest the boil and it will always spawn there. The other players can remain at the mixer to defend it and grab the toxin.

I actually found this trick myself by accident a few Plague Star events back, when I (as host) got in my archwing immediately after grabbing the mixed toxin and flew to the middle of the map (so that I would be able to get to the drone quickly). When it spawned the drone near me, I started playing around with it on future runs and figured it out.

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Yes it would fall under exploit since the base behavior is tied to the proximity of the mixer location. So there is a bug to exploit when you move to a different location to trick the game to think you defended a mixer closer to another drone spawn point.

Sure it may not be harmful, but it can result in changes to the event we may not like. Like an increase in prices or hardcoded streamlined fixes to mechanics in the event. I'm all for smart use of Nova, Loki or Archwing to speed up the drone, I'm not ok with people exploiting an obvious bug. This is really no different from  worming, switching or bumping the drone into a lake, guard tower or out of bounds if instant boil arrival.

In all honesty I find it silly that people complain about the length of a run given what rewards we can actually farm from it.

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It's an exploit because the action is done explicitly to manipulate the spawn location.

However, assuming the spawn location is one that's intended to occur in normal gameplay then the exploit isn't something I'd consider malicious. But how the forums define it mean nothing as only DE's ruling on it matters.

 

Though the drone phase, along with the entire event, needs a rework. With the entire thing is a lazy copy-paste of normal bounties with four exact clones of Lephantis tacked on for good measure. But sadly that doesn't excuse abusing an exploit.

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It's intended mechanic, otherwise why would DE ever give players control over the drone spawn by tying it to their position? Do you say they have no idea what they are doing?

Edited by sitfesz
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Not all exploits are bugs or abuse.  For example "kiting" is exploiting an enemy's tendency to attempt to enter attack range for a closer attack, rather than switching to a longer range attack.  Doom had monster infighting which players can exploit to thin crowds or conserve ammo.  DE wanted some balance between distance from the mixer, and distance to the boil, otherwise they would have just had the drone spawn randomly.  Obviously this would be terrible for the players because you'd be just as likely to have to travel only a couple hundred meters or be forced to traverse the entire plains.  Exploiting this doesn't cause anything to happen that wouldn't already normally happen.  The drone still spawns in one of its normal locations, and has to take its normal path at normal speed while being attacked by the normal enemies.

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2 hours ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

if DE just made the drone fly at much higher speed, nobody would even have to go looking for exploits and strategies to move the drone in the first place. it's not like we wouldn't be able to keep up with the drone; we pilot freaking ninjas that can jump over small houses. there's no good reason for the drone to be so slow, and enemies can still shoot at it no matter how fast it moves, since most grineer use hitscan weapons anyway, and Dargyns have no trouble keeping up either.

 

Haha. I can’t help but feel you’re underestimating the desire to cut out as much of the game as possible 😋.

Even if the drone moved faster, people would be figuring out ways to teleport the drone instantly. The game’s boring, so it’s only logical to skip it whenever possible. If a game’s not fun, what’s the point? Might as well get the reward that will see use elsewhere and get out of there.

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
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If you truly consider this behavior an exploit and have done any of the following:

  • Avoided walking into Grineer camps during Eidolon hunts in order to ensure Vomvalysts spawn near the entrance.
  • Stuck together in a room with few entry points in a Survival mission to maximize spawns and the flow of enemies.
  • Rushed past Vay Hek to his final boss room in order to trigger all of his escapes in one go.

Then congratulations, you are an exploiter. Just like the thing mentioned in the OP, all of these rely on knowledge and proper triggering of the game's spawn system in order to optimize gameplay. None of them have caused issues, none of them have been addressed by DE, and certainly none of them are worth punishment, as is the case with actual exploits.

But seriously, though, how miserable does one have to be to label any sort of optimization an "exploit"? What is it with this desire to punish other players for enjoying themselves? How does it hurt you when a few players use a spawning trick to shave a couple minutes off their grinding time? If the intent isn't to get anyone punished, then avoid using the term "exploit", because DE has punished people for exploits before, including with lifetime bans. Given that there is little consistency to their actions in this regard and that they are prone to knee-jerk reactions, I wouldn't so loosely use a term that, to the developers, is a sign that a player is engaging in genuinely abusive behavior.

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I dont know you are all writting so much, guys this is the mechanic of vombalyst spawn, go to a specific position and you force spawn vombalyst for your lure, the whole videogame works like that. Also calling loki an exploit? 

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53 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

If you truly consider this behavior an exploit and have done any of the following:

  • Avoided walking into Grineer camps during Eidolon hunts in order to ensure Vomvalysts spawn near the entrance.
  • Stuck together in a room with few entry points in a Survival mission to maximize spawns and the flow of enemies.
  • Rushed past Vay Hek to his final boss room in order to trigger all of his escapes in one go.

Then congratulations, you are an exploiter. Just like the thing mentioned in the OP, all of these rely on knowledge and proper triggering of the game's spawn system in order to optimize gameplay. None of them have caused issues, none of them have been addressed by DE, and certainly none of them are worth punishment, as is the case with actual exploits.

But seriously, though, how miserable does one have to be to label any sort of optimization an "exploit"? What is it with this desire to punish other players for enjoying themselves? How does it hurt you when a few players use a spawning trick to shave a couple minutes off their grinding time? If the intent isn't to get anyone punished, then avoid using the term "exploit", because DE has punished people for exploits before, including with lifetime bans. Given that there is little consistency to their actions in this regard and that they are prone to knee-jerk reactions, I wouldn't so loosely use a term that, to the developers, is a sign that a player is engaging in genuinely abusive behavior.

Who's advocating for players to be punished over this?

An exploit is an exploit, it's just a definition. One which doesn't require the act to be malicious in nature but just taking advantage of something that's unintended. But the only thing that matters is how DE responds to it if they even respond to it at all.

And players calling it what it is isn't going to sway DE's decision unless the community starts an ongoing uproar over it. Even then other players can just as well start a counter-uproar that it should be left alone as players abusing it is a product of the awful mission design.

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