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Does the particular tactic in the Plague star belongs to bug or a abusive tactic, which should be fixed?


Aquapisces
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vor 7 Minuten schrieb Tesseract7777:

I understand what you are saying, and in theory I agree with you. 

But what if DE theorizes differently? I expect them to theorize differently, even if I don't agree. That's why I don't recommend it to others. But like I said, from what I've understood from the past, unless its like a really obvious exploit and a streamer has been prominently suggesting it, they just patch it and move on. No one actually gets punished. So I wouldn't worry about it. 

People get punished if they use mechanics that are not working like the khora thing with spamming the venari ability, when some people abused host migrations to farm nightwave spawns or when people used negative crit damage rivens to cause a damage underflow.

People dont get punished if everything is working as designed, like when the ophelia farm was nerfed with new enemy behavior (trade ban is a different case because it's a janky automated system and has nothing to do with exploiting) or when the affinity amount gained from coolant raknoids was massively reduced because people farmed them with stealth kills for insane amounts of affinity.

Edit: another example was people abort farming intrinisics at the start of railjack in the veil galleon. You gaining some affinity even if you abort mission was up to that point intentional, DE simply decided to nerf that until nothing of the farm remained.

Edited by Drachnyn
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5 hours ago, FlerpDish said:

Wh...Why would you report someone for manipulating the drone spawn location? Are they hurting you in any way? Is it negatively impacting your gameplay? Is it breaking the game?

No. It's not.

Don't report people for stuff as minor as making the drone spawn closer to the boil. Like seriously.

They weren't advocating reporting a PERSON.  They were responding to the actual original question posed on this thread, whether or not to report this specific set of actions that dictate a particular outcome that bypasses RNG, as a "bug/exploit"... to which this posted said "Yes", basically.

In otherwords, just move this topic to Bugs/Feedback and let DE deal with it, and move on....

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On 2021-09-14 at 3:57 AM, Aquapisces said:

Today I was in the plain, attending a team for plague star. When we come to the stage two, one of my teammate pointed a place, and asked us to go there  30 seconds before the end of stage 2. Sometimes it's a little boil near the big one, or near the lake. When I ask him why, he replied:

"Where we are at the end of the stage 2 decides where the drone spawns in the stage 3. Now we all come to the pointed spot and wait for the end of stage 2, and at the beginning of stage 3,the drone will spawn near from the boil, approximately 200m.'

Compared to the conventional tactic, in this can we dramatically reduce the time of stage 3 in Plague star. With loki or nova my teammates were able to finish stage 3 in less than 10 seconds. I wonder, DE has been working to eliminate any bugs or abusive tactics. So, is this so-called tactic a kind of unauthorized way, which should also be fixed, like making the spawn point of drone fixed, nearly 500m away from the big boil....

Sure if you don't value your time and enjoy babysitting a slow moving drone over 500-1k m, then I guess it is an exploit. After all it's an exploit available to anyone without having to glitch the game into behaving differently. It's a spot to stand on in a game to speed up a slow process, ofc people who value their time and sanity are going to stand on that precious rock. 

 

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37 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

People get punished if they use mechanics that are not working like the khora thing with spamming the venari ability, when some people abused host migrations to farm nightwave spawns or when people used negative crit damage rivens to cause a damage underflow.

People dont get punished if everything is working as designed, like when the ophelia farm was nerfed with new enemy behavior (trade ban is a different case because it's a janky automated system and has nothing to do with exploiting) or when the affinity amount gained from coolant raknoids was massively reduced because people farmed them with stealth kills for insane amounts of affinity.

Edit: another example was people abort farming intrinisics at the start of railjack in the veil galleon. You gaining some affinity even if you abort mission was up to that point intentional, DE simply decided to nerf that until nothing of the farm remained.

People not being able to utilize an unintended interaction or exploit anymore isn't "punishment", least of all in the way @Tesseract7777meant it, and you know that.

Taking away something that is deemed harmful to the game or to the overall game experience, and you being sour that now you need to go back to "normal" is NOT equivalent to banning/muting accounts for their involvement/utilization thereof.  Don't make false equivalences to muddy and draw out an already bloated thread.

 

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vor 37 Minuten schrieb (PSN)JustJoshinEnt:

People not being able to utilize an unintended interaction or exploit anymore isn't "punishment", least of all in the way @Tesseract7777meant it, and you know that.

Taking away something that is deemed harmful to the game or to the overall game experience, and you being sour that now you need to go back to "normal" is NOT equivalent to banning/muting accounts for their involvement/utilization thereof.  Don't make false equivalences to muddy and draw out an already bloated thread.

 

You misunderstood what I meant with punished. Many people got their account banned in with the khora affinity exploit and the nightwave encounter host migration exploit or got their hostile merger scores permanently removed because they used negative crit damage rivens.

That's the big difference to the other examples I listed, where no bugs or glitches or anything like that were used and therefore people were not punished with bans or score removals.

What I'm saying is that the plaguestar strat is an example of the latter. Everyone doing this strat is firmly withing the design space of the mission and therefore not exploiting anything. DE might nerf it and I would not be suprised at all if they did, afterall they have a huge incentive to not run plaguestar at all because it provides free built forma. But that doesnt make something an exploit.

Edited by Drachnyn
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It's amazing to see so many people complaining about the drone's speed, up to a point to find some game-shaking strategy like optimized spawn point or frame based speed up, while nobody actually use or talk about the basic in-game tools, like STIMS, boosting NPC movement speed by 75% for 120s...

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1 hour ago, dwqrf said:

It's amazing to see so many people complaining about the drone's speed, up to a point to find some game-shaking strategy like optimized spawn point or frame based speed up, while nobody actually use or talk about the basic in-game tools, like STIMS, boosting NPC movement speed by 75% for 120s...

Oh my god. I did not know/forgot about these

edit: I don’t have a problem with the drone’s speed; there’s always something to do while escorting it, like fighting or jumping through the trees. But I love my NPC friends, and want to help them

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
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This is loosely related but: why do they pick and choose what abilities can be used on certain enemies/allies? If one ability can apply, then they should all be fair game to use. It makes no sense to have these abilities if half of the pool is arbitrarily made useless.

But more to the point: why does it matter if we use spawn mechanics to our advantage? They made Wisp's motes and Nova's speed ineffective on the drone (for who knows what reason) but Oberon's renewal still works. It should be binary, and it makes no sense (lore wise as well) that some abilities wouldn't work on the drone.

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Look, somebody actually did so much plague star and found out the rotation of all the locations that can help you do it really fast.

and you here, instead of appreciate how nice of him, that greatly reduced your time on this horrible grinding process, you come here ask if dude was exploiting stuff.

this is a free to play game, where the company sell real life time equivalent premium currency to profit. and you rather take the rough road.

Do you know these pattern are everywhere? even in distruption mission, the location of demolist spawn can be somewhat predicted. you are benefitting from it and this is not glitch or some serious exploit. you just saved like 10 seconds of flying time or so. we all just playing the no ask no tell rule even its a real exploit. 

I didnt play that much of this event but I sure did enough. on certain first stage, the underground place is just such a waste of time, I usually just abort mission and start another one. so I can get different rotation. Or come back later for the plain bounty rotation change. Am I exploiting?

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vor 4 Stunden schrieb (XBOX)TyeGoo:

The difference is that this current method is FREE. Stims even to a vet can get expensive if used  excessively. So obviously no one uses them.. and rather take the free ride. 

Let's hope DE will say something at some point so this can be over with and we can get interesting discussions ._.

Picking a room with good spawns in survival vs one without good spawns is also free, what's your point?

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21 hours ago, HintOfMalice said:

I'm wouldn't call it an exploit. It's understanding how the game functions normally and behaving in a way to make the game behave in the way that is currently most optimal to your interests. You're not causing the game to behave in a way that it wasn't intended to, nor are you taking advantage of a moment when the game is behaving other than it is intended to by cause of a bug. The position the drone starts in is selected based on player location, so the players go to where they know will make the game spawn the drone in an ideal location.

 

The thing where Loki TPs from the top of a sniper tower, causing the drone segment to autocomplete is clearly a glitch and using it is an exploit. But drone forcing? Maybe DE will tell me I'm wrong and they consider it an exploit, but I don't see it myself. It's just understand how the game will behave in certain situations and then acting accordingly. I don't see this as any different to force spawning voms or the other examples that a poster listed above. 

Eh what you describe is an exploit since the game isnt intended to work that way. For example you have mixer spot A, B, C, D and so on spread across the map, each of those is tied to a few specific drone spawn locations. If you then decide to move away from the mixer spot to get the game to recognize your position as having defended another it is effectively an exploit since you interrupt how the game naturally works by bugging it out. If any drone location was intended then it would be random no matter the mixer spot you defend.

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20 hours ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

people not being able to utilize an unintended interaction or exploit anymore isn't "punishment", least of all in the way @Tesseract7777meant it, and you know that.

Taking away something that is deemed harmful to the game or to the overall game experience, and you being sour that now you need to go back to "normal" is NOT equivalent to banning/muting accounts for their involvement/utilization thereof.  Don't make false equivalences to muddy and draw out an already bloated thread.

Are you having a laugh Deemed harmful to the game in which makes you grind hours on hours to have a chance at getting something you wan all the while constantly nerfing and making it harder to farm the already braindead farm in order to get your item with the 0.1% drop chance. without these exploits the game would fall apart due to how futile farming feels in this game. The drop tables are sick joke and while plague star may let you choose what you get through the standing it still feels braindead after the 50th time you do it. if the drop pools weren't insulting, maybe people wouldn't rely so heavily on these exploits.

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb SneakyErvin:

Eh what you describe is an exploit since the game isnt intended to work that way. For example you have mixer spot A, B, C, D and so on spread across the map, each of those is tied to a few specific drone spawn locations. If you then decide to move away from the mixer spot to get the game to recognize your position as having defended another it is effectively an exploit since you interrupt how the game naturally works by bugging it out. If any drone location was intended then it would be random no matter the mixer spot you defend.

Bounty stages choose a location near you at the end of the last stage. Archwing lets you travel around the plains fast. There is nothing bugged about it. It works as designed.

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3 hours ago, (XBOX)TyeGoo said:

Uhh I literally wrote down my point with the comment i quoted (which you should read to know what I was talking about..). [It's about stims the person mentioned]

People purposefully don't use stims because they have to give resources (synthula and other things) to get a benefit. That's why people rather use the free thing that doesn't require anything like resources but still makes the mission faster.

I'm not arguing about if it's good or bad, i just told someone that there's a reason stims are basically a forgotten System..

I'm onboard with this view of the option; Synthula is a pain to get large amounts of for the same reason as Forma (meaning Forma outside of Plague Star) is - craft times and singular craft recipes. The blueprint for Synthula costs 5000 credits, 1 Gallium, 1 Neurode and 1 Morphic - not an altogether expensive recipe but one you have to claim, restart, wait, claim, restart, wait, etc. Needing two of them per Adrenal Stim, along with 5000 more credits, 1500 Polymer Bundles, 1000 Alloy Plates and 500 Plastids - it gets quite expensive reasonably quickly, let alone the cumulative time investment needed just to see one set get crafted.

Sure, one could say effort in magnifies effort out; why do that when you can just be Loki or Nova and teleport the thing? I'd be far more receptive if the blueprints were larger in quantity, say 3-5 per craft on both the Synthula and the Stims themselves. Maybe we'd see them get used in more situations in that case, including with Plague Star; I doubt this is likely in all sincerity however. DE has shown us they prefer to draw things out or nullify the majority of speedup strategies for certain gamemodes or tactical alerts.

One can hope, one can hope.

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6 hours ago, (XBOX)Harbinger XK5 said:

Are you having a laugh Deemed harmful to the game in which makes you grind hours on hours to have a chance at getting something you wan all the while constantly nerfing and making it harder to farm the already braindead farm in order to get your item with the 0.1% drop chance. without these exploits the game would fall apart due to how futile farming feels in this game. The drop tables are sick joke and while plague star may let you choose what you get through the standing it still feels braindead after the 50th time you do it. if the drop pools weren't insulting, maybe people wouldn't rely so heavily on these exploits.

Oh, you right... I should ask for a refund..  /s

Dude, everything you've said is completely SUBJECTIVE.  It might be the case for YOU that you don't like it, but that's not the case for everyone. 

It's an event where it costs NOTHING to participate, and the average player gets 3-6 months' worth of pre-built forma out of it!   But you wanna sit around acting like it's "a sick joke"...

What drop tables are you complaining about?  The relics that are guaranteed to be Nidus Prime relics?  That can be gotten plenty of other places, too?   The EVENT SHOP where you can literally earn UNLIMITED standing daily to purchase whatever rewards you CHOOSE with NO RNG?

Grief, man.. if you hate it that much, don't play the event.  No one is twisting your arm.  Everything in it can be traded for, anyway.

Everyone's entitled to an opinion, but don't try to push it as a fact.

I've been playing the game for YEARS, and it's plenty fine without "exploits".  If you want to rush hundreds of runs of one particular mission into a small amount of time, because of some sense of FOMO, even though the event runs for almost a MONTH, that's on you.

 

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On 2021-09-14 at 8:43 PM, Soy77 said:

There's ZERO LOGICAL REASON why if we stand in that spot, drone should spawn closer to the boil. Whoever found it must've tinkered with codes or logs, not told by konzu secret dialogue or something.

It's 100% in the codes -not in the lore. which yes made it an exploit, but players are exploiting it for good reason. That bounty stage is boring as heck even with lokis and novas.

ORRRRRRRRRRR people could have found it by accident, tested it multiple times and went "huh, if we stand over here, the drone spawns over there"

 

No L33T H4X0R skills needed.

 

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1 hour ago, nerfinator6 said:

ORRRRRRRRRRR people could have found it by accident, tested it multiple times and went "huh, if we stand over here, the drone spawns over there"

 

No L33T H4X0R skills needed.

 

Heh. Considering that this game gives us the option to basically bypass a lot of stuff already by building for it, I think anyone who's proud of the fact that they're using this situation as if it's some clever H4X might need to re-asses the things this game lets us do.

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Am 15.9.2021 um 23:39 schrieb dwqrf:

It's amazing to see so many people complaining about the drone's speed, up to a point to find some game-shaking strategy like optimized spawn point or frame based speed up, while nobody actually use or talk about the basic in-game tools, like STIMS, boosting NPC movement speed by 75% for 120s...

Have you recently farmed some STIMS?

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32 minutes ago, Dunkelheit said:

Have you recently farmed some STIMS?

You don't farm them, you build them. Same with Synthula - you farm the resources required to build those stims and Synthula which I mentioned in the above post:

It's far and away from the idea of being unviable or impossible, but that doesn't mean it's not a right pain in the backside to even perform due to crafting times.

Edited by iPathos
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While we have actual exploits in the event, let’s leave conventional mechanics alone. The drone is just spawning near the squad. That’s a perfectly reasonable thing.

Loki and Nova teleporting the drone hundreds of meters though? Remarkably less reasonable.

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14 hours ago, Drachnyn said:

Bounty stages choose a location near you at the end of the last stage. Archwing lets you travel around the plains fast. There is nothing bugged about it. It works as designed.

Those are different since they dont center around a unified final bounty stage location like Plague Star and its boil. You cant scew normal bounties in the same way at all by moving closer to a final point gradually. And Plague Star bounties certainly doesnt choose a location near you normaly, which can be seen if the starting stage may be in the massive "open" cave system to the far right of the cetus entrence as you enter the plains. If it did you would never end up at the defense point furthest to the left after having that cave as the first stage. Which still happens regularly.

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5 hours ago, nerfinator6 said:

ORRRRRRRRRRR people could have found it by accident, tested it multiple times and went "huh, if we stand over here, the drone spawns over there"

 

No L33T H4X0R skills needed.

 

Have you tried the exploit? If you have, you'll see how complicated and time-sensitive it is to be found by coincidence.

Basically we're trying to imagine that 3 people accidentally stand in that one random spot -out of all other million coordinates in POE (which again: just some rocks. Not even an interesting landmark),

and the 4th person for some reason decides to sprint to that place -not just some casual race, but utilizing every speed mods, eidolon dash build operator, speed build itzal, and two speed intrinsics from rj (exactly the moment he finished getting the objective, too),

and the 3 other members somehow wasn't participating in the bounty stages, because they all need to be waiting on the magic spot,

lastly they all somehow did it couple of times in a row, to notice that the spawn points are consistently closer. Drone? okay. We all need that thing to be closer to the boil. BUT they did it for the mixer as well. nobody cares about mixer's position, yet somehow they did it enough times by accident.

You can see how unlikely that scenario is, don't you, mate?

Even casual tennos nowadays can learn 3d graphic modelling programs and actually created skins for the game from scratch. It's miraculous. So it can't be that hard to believe if some already coding-savvy tenno took a peek in there and found it. This doesn't need to be neo from the matrix.

Edited by Soy77
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vor 47 Minuten schrieb SneakyErvin:

Those are different since they dont center around a unified final bounty stage location like Plague Star and its boil. You cant scew normal bounties in the same way at all by moving closer to a final point gradually. And Plague Star bounties certainly doesnt choose a location near you normaly, which can be seen if the starting stage may be in the massive "open" cave system to the far right of the cetus entrence as you enter the plains. If it did you would never end up at the defense point furthest to the left after having that cave as the first stage. Which still happens regularly.

Just because it offers very little benefit in regular bounties doesnt mean doing the same in plague star makes it an exploit somehow. You are perfectly within bounty design when forcing the spawn point. People use it in plague star because it's beneficial, mission optimization does equal exploit however.

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1 hour ago, Drachnyn said:

Just because it offers very little benefit in regular bounties doesnt mean doing the same in plague star makes it an exploit somehow. You are perfectly within bounty design when forcing the spawn point. People use it in plague star because it's beneficial, mission optimization does equal exploit however.

It does if it is an oversight in the design. Just because it is there doesnt mean it is intended. It simply isnt a problem or real benefit in normal bounties, so not very strange if it is an oversight of an unintended interaction. That is the essence of an exploit when making use of it. The magnitude of its impact doesnt matter or change the definition.

It is as if you have crossable mountain ranges in a faction based PvP game, then a player finds a path across the mountains into the enemy territory which should be safe and locked off by design, and then goes "but I can cross all other mountains in the game" when confronted and accused of exploiting. It is the same deal, an overlooked design flaw being used i.e exploited. The negative impact between the two are obviously worlds apart, but they are both still exploits in their own sense.

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vor 12 Minuten schrieb SneakyErvin:

It does if it is an oversight in the design. Just because it is there doesnt mean it is intended. It simply isnt a problem or real benefit in normal bounties, so not very strange if it is an oversight of an unintended interaction. That is the essence of an exploit when making use of it. The magnitude of its impact doesnt matter or change the definition.

It is as if you have crossable mountain ranges in a faction based PvP game, then a player finds a path across the mountains into the enemy territory which should be safe and locked off by design, and then goes "but I can cross all other mountains in the game" when confronted and accused of exploiting. It is the same deal, an overlooked design flaw being used i.e exploited. The negative impact between the two are obviously worlds apart, but they are both still exploits in their own sense.

With plague star you as player are still operating within the working design space of the mission. The place you go to make the next stage choose the nearest site is not locked off, you are not glitching yourself into some place you arent supposed to be. Your made up example makes no sense, you are talking about something completely different than what people are doing in plaguestar.

As a dev you cannot possibly think of every single way players are doing with what you made and like I said earlier in the thread I would not be surprised at all if DE went ahead and nerfed the farm. The important difference however is that no bugs or glitches are being abused here, players just recognized the game mechanics and are using them to their advantage while still staying within the constraints of those game mechanics.

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