Does the particular tactic in the Plague star belongs to bug or a abusive tactic, which should be fixed?

[SneakyErvin]

13 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

With plague star you as player are still operating within the working design space of the mission. The place you go to make the next stage choose the nearest site is not locked off, you are not glitching yourself into some place you arent supposed to be. Your made up example makes no sense, you are talking about something completely different than what people are doing in plaguestar.

As a dev you cannot possibly think of every single way players are doing with what you made and like I said earlier in the thread I would not be surprised at all if DE went ahead and nerfed the farm. The important difference however is that no bugs or glitches are being abused here, players just recognized the game mechanics and are using them to their advantage while still staying within the constraints of those game mechanics.

Just because it works doesnt mean it is intended, that is the point and the part that makes certain things exploits. Like I said, the magnitude of how it impacts the game isnt the deciding factor. There is no grey area regarding if it is an exploit or not, just how much it effects the game, if there is a need to fix it or keep it as a "feature". My example makes perfect sense if you grasp the concept of exploits and what makes them a reality.

Of course they cant, but that doesnt make something less of an exploit. And I'd say glitches are being "abused" here, since the location falls outside of the normal parameter of the bounty stage which is very likely a result of an oversight. That means the players recognized a flaw in the mechanics and are using that flaw to their advantage. If it was "by the books" it would be a very obvious mechanic. But as we've seen here in this thread, people have found this out "by mistake" on random. Which indicates it isnt intended, since it is hidden.

edit: And for me, the point in pointing it out as an exploit is more to ease the pain for people if it gets fixed. So we dont get people going "duuur DE nurfed teh fan agen!" when all they did was fix something. And that is if they deem a fix needed, which is another discussion on its own.

[Drachnyn]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb SneakyErvin:

Just because it works doesnt mean it is intended, that is the point and the part that makes certain things exploits. Like I said, the magnitude of how it impacts the game isnt the deciding factor. There is no grey area regarding if it is an exploit or not, just how much it effects the game, if there is a need to fix it or keep it as a "feature". My example makes perfect sense if you grasp the concept of exploits and what makes them a reality.

Of course they cant, but that doesnt make something less of an exploit. And I'd say glitches are being "abused" here, since the location falls outside of the normal parameter of the bounty stage which is very likely a result of an oversight. That means the players recognized a flaw in the mechanics and are using that flaw to their advantage. If it was "by the books" it would be a very obvious mechanic. But as we've seen here in this thread, people have found this out "by mistake" on random. Which indicates it isnt intended, since it is hidden.

The thread asks if it is a bug or abusive mechanic, it is neither. Some people in this thread imply that DE is going to punish people for using this strategy because they punished people for abusing bugs in the past, which this strategy is not. Exploits to me mean like the thread asks, bugs and similar things. Things that get "fixed". Coolant raknoids being an insanely good affinity farm also wasnt intentional but the people farming them were perfectly within working game mechanics (stealth affinity bonus and enemies losing attention after a certain amount of time). Therefore no one was punished. The amount of affinity gained from coolant raknoids was nerfed however.

If something works as designed, then there is no reason for players to not use it. Otherwise we'd have to run every single build or strategy by support first. I trust you realize how insane that would be. Game designing is not just a black and white of intentional or not intentional. Some design desicions come with with consequences or trade offs. DE didnt go the fully randomized stage location route because they decided it would be bad. Players finding an optimal route is a logical consequence of that.

[SneakyErvin]

25 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

The thread asks if it is a bug or abusive mechanic, it is neither. Some people in this thread imply that DE is going to punish people for using this strategy because they punished people for abusing bugs in the past, which this strategy is not. Exploits to me mean like the thread asks, bugs and similar things. Things that get "fixed". Coolant raknoids being an insanely good affinity farm also wasnt intentional but the people farming them were perfectly within working game mechanics (stealth affinity bonus and enemies losing attention after a certain amount of time). Therefore no one was punished. The amount of affinity gained from coolant raknoids was nerfed however.

If something works as designed, then there is no reason for players to not use it. Otherwise we'd have to run every single build or strategy by support first. I trust you realize how insane that would be. Game designing is not just a black and white of intentional or not intentional. Some design desicions come with with consequences or trade offs. DE didnt go the fully randomized stage location route because they decided it would be bad. Players finding an optimal route is a logical consequence of that.

There is no way to know if this works as designed and intended, we cant rule out if this is a bug or not, which makes this an exploit. That doesnt mean actions should be taken against people that use it, because the impact from the exploit is not severe. Venari, Raknoids, Watch Towers and Drone spawns all class as exploits, their severity decides if actions are to be taken or not against the players. No actions being taken against players doesnt mean it wasnt an exploit eitherway. If something was changed to not be possibly anymore it means it was an exploit to begin with.

I think the biggest problem is that people think exploit = cheating.

[Drachnyn]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb SneakyErvin:

There is no way to know if this works as designed and intended, we cant rule out if this is a bug or not, which makes this an exploit. That doesnt mean actions should be taken against people that use it, because the impact from the exploit is not severe. Venari, Raknoids, Watch Towers and Drone spawns all class as exploits, their severity decides if actions are to be taken or not against the players. No actions being taken against players doesnt mean it wasnt an exploit eitherway. If something was changed to not be possibly anymore it means it was an exploit to begin with.

I think the biggest problem is that people think exploit = cheating.

We clearly use different terms for some things but I think I can understand what you mean now. You would call this strategy an exploit but not cheating then?

[dwqrf]

Le 16/09/2021 à 12:12, (XBOX)TyeGoo a dit :

The difference is that this current method is FREE. Stims even to a vet can get expensive if used  excessively. So obviously no one uses them.. and rather take the free ride. 

Let's hope DE will say something at some point so this can be over with and we can get interesting discussions ._.

Le 17/09/2021 à 09:17, Dunkelheit a dit :

Have you recently farmed some STIMS?

Le 17/09/2021 à 09:49, iPathos a dit :

You don't farm them, you build them. Same with Synthula - you farm the resources required to build those stims and Synthula [...]

It's far and away from the idea of being unviable or impossible, but that doesn't mean it's not a right pain in the backside to even perform due to crafting times.

 

The point is that this in game tool allows a lot of efficiency ; and not only in Plague Star. Stims can be used in many missions, which are often considered trash because of the NPC move speed. We can boost Kavors, in Defection, to have the fastest rotation/minute of any Arbitration ; we can boost Otak&Loid, in Isolation rooms ; we can boost Necramech, while using them in Warframe/Operator next to them, granting a great bonus in Orphix mission or any open world. And we can boost any other NPC/Drone that have a time gate pathing.

Crafting stims require you to only walk up to your foundry, and click twice, on Synthula, then on Stims, once a day. You can also do that with the Warframe App. It's really not that much of a big deal.

Is it better than Loki's Teleport ? No. Is it better than optimized spawn location ? Certainly not. Is it relatively free, and allows you to have a viable alternative to any methods being either considered dodgy, exploiting, or cheating, while being performant and legit ? Yes.

[Vaml77]

It's not cheating, but knowing how to use the tools available in the game like some warframes that facilitate this like loki and nova. The event itself is quite tedious. I believe that in some remote future the DE remakes this event causing the drone to appear closer. A random team that plays and doesn't know the tactics and warframes will end the hunt and won't even want to do it again most of the time....

DE needs to understand what the word fun actually means. This event should be something pleasant, shortened and less punitive to players. I got the maximum rank with a lot of sacrifice and I confess that I only do it for the shapes....I've lost so many shapes to bad weapons that we feel somehow harmed.

[iPathos]

9 hours ago, dwqrf said:

Crafting stims require you to only walk up to your foundry, and click twice, on Synthula, then on Stims, once a day. You can also do that with the Warframe App. It's really not that much of a big deal.

Doing that once a day gives you a single stim. It also requires double the quicks you've stated because of crafting confirmation. The problem I have is tedium caused by singular crafts instead of multiple. They have one-minute craft times, which doesn't sound bad until you want to build 50 synthula and 25 stims. It's a huge waste of potential runs doing something else (plague star for example) solely because the crafting is so tedious.

It's adding more tedium to existing tedium to end up with a lower net tedium between them. If Plague Star was any sort of interesting to actually play this wouldn't be an issue, nor would Defection. But they are boring as all hell, thus the position.

[SneakyErvin]

On 2021-09-17 at 4:20 PM, Drachnyn said:

We clearly use different terms for some things but I think I can understand what you mean now. You would call this strategy an exploit but not cheating then?

Sorry for the late answer. But yes, I'd consider it an exploit but not a cheat. I'd probably not class it as abuse either, since there is no real harm coming from it, no one is negatively impacted by it.

Just as in real life, we can exploit flaws in systems, that doesnt mean we are criminal, dishonest, cheats or abusive every time we do so.

[Vaml77]

Necessity forces players to refine themselves. The more you play this event, the more you know the tactics so that the mission can be completed as quickly as possible. Anyone who thinks it's cheating is because they don't know how the event works or because they don't have enough competence to help the team and just keep looking at the others.

[Lutesque]

On 2021-09-17 at 3:07 PM, SneakyErvin said:

If it was "by the books" it would be a very obvious mechanic.

Sorry... But this just doesn't apply to Warframe....  They constantly fail to teach you By The Books stuff all the time... This by itself is a whole different discussion on its own.

On 2021-09-17 at 4:11 PM, SneakyErvin said:

If something was changed to not be possibly anymore it means it was an exploit to begin with.

Or it could mean DE just doesn't like it.... Xoris Nerf is an Excellent Example of this...

On 2021-09-17 at 4:11 PM, SneakyErvin said:

 

I think the biggest problem is that people think exploit = cheating.

It kinda is and isn't ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ you can make a valid argument for both.

On 2021-09-18 at 3:58 PM, dwqrf said:

Crafting stims require you to only walk up to your foundry, and click twice, on Synthula, then on Stims, once a day. You can also do that with the Warframe App. It's really not that much of a big deal

I actually did try using those once.... The game didn't let me... They were greyed out in my Gear Wheel for some reason...

They're also Quite Resource Intensive 😱 !!!

 

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Sorry... But this just doesn't apply to Warframe....  They constantly fail to teach you By The Books stuff all the time... This by itself is a whole different discussion on its own.

Or it could mean DE just doesn't like it.... Xoris Nerf is an Excellent Example of this...

It kinda is and isn't ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ you can make a valid argument for both.

 

Well there is a reason I said "by the books". We know each mixers has a number of specific spots tied to it, going to a spot for another mixer is obviously not "by the books", if it was there would be no pre-determined order of which are tied to a specific mixer. Xoris was an exploit aswell, since it made use of something that was overlooked, though I dont know how they could manage to actually overlook it to begin with. And yeah, exploits can be cheating, while they also dont have to be, it all depends on the scale, if it is on Venari levels or the current drones. Like I said above, an exploit is simply making use of something not intended, or something that is flawed, it doesnt mean it is cheating or something criminal.

[Lutesque]

7 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Xoris was an exploit aswell, since it made use of something that was overlooked, though I dont know how they could manage to actually overlook it to begin with.

That's because they didn't.... The reason they gave for Nerfing is proof that they were merely back peddling on a clear intentional Decision.

20 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Like I said above, an exploit is simply making use of something not intended, or something that is flawed, it doesnt mean it is cheating or something criminal.

I think something can still be an Exploit even if it is Intentional.... Infact Fighting Games do this crap all the time.... A bug very often gets reimplemented (as is) in future iteration of the Same Franchise and then gets presented as a "High Level Feature"...

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

That's because they didn't.... The reason they gave for Nerfing is proof that they were merely back peddling on a clear intentional Decision.

I think something can still be an Exploit even if it is Intentional.... Infact Fighting Games do this crap all the time.... A bug very often gets reimplemented (as is) in future iteration of the Same Franchise and then gets presented as a "High Level Feature"...

I think they didnt realize that it would be "harmful" to introduce it. I mean, obviously someone thought "uhm it's like Naramon", but then they didnt quite see the underlying issues, with a very simple to get stat-stick rivaling a focus school locked node that takes a loooooong progression grind to reach. So I think "overlooked" would apply. However, I dont agree with their change really, since the weapon isnt all that useful overall for anyhting else and it was still a trade off between useful riven vs infinite combo dura. Also, iirc, the new attaché melee weapons do the exact same thing.

While yes, exploits can be done in intended design, but there is where the flawed design comes in. Heck we can even exploit not-flawed design aswell, but that is a different kind of exploit and not that meaning that is tied to buggy, overlooked or flawed game systems. You have the real life term and you have the video game term. I mean, we exploit the game in the real life term when we use things like hiding behind corners and take stuff out with massive AoE guns or skills etc. Though in computer terms that is often described as cheese instead to avoid confusion with the video game use of the term.

[Lutesque]

19 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I think they didnt realize that it would be "harmful" to introduce it. I mean, obviously someone thought "uhm it's like Naramon", but then they didnt quite see the underlying issues, with a very simple to get stat-stick rivaling a focus school locked node that takes a loooooong progression grind to reach. So I think "overlooked" would apply.

Yeah no... The Community has been begging for more lenient Combo Counter Systems since forever... They decided to give that to them .... A d then out of the blue decided it was too convenient and took it away.... 

I get that DE can make mistakes sometimes but to call the Xoris Fiasco a mere Oversight is being teensy weensy bit too Generous. 

24 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

While yes, exploits can be done in intended design, but there is where the flawed design comes in. Heck we can even exploit not-flawed design aswell, but that is a different kind of exploit and not that meaning that is tied to buggy, overlooked or flawed game systems. You have the real life term and you have the video game term. I mean, we exploit the game in the real life term when we use things like hiding behind corners and take stuff out with massive AoE guns or skills etc. Though in computer terms that is often described as cheese instead to avoid confusion with the video game use of the term.

Either way both are Exploits and Both are Bad...

[SneakyErvin]

4 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Yeah no... The Community has been begging for more lenient Combo Counter Systems since forever... They decided to give that to them .... A d then out of the blue decided it was too convenient and took it away.... 

I get that DE can make mistakes sometimes but to call the Xoris Fiasco a mere Oversight is being teensy weensy bit too Generous. 

Either way both are Exploits and Both are Bad...

Well yeah, but Xoris was really only viable on the pseudo-exalteds, I mean it wasnt a universal help to players wanting better combo management. I dont think anyone would be caught dead with Xoris as their main "melee" just so they could have infinite combo. And I honestly think it was an oversight since DE are very detached regarding certain things in the game that they release. I mean, we had the Bramma nerf, but then a few months later they release Kuva Zarr? I mean... the logic just isnt there.

[Lutesque]

11 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

, I mean it wasnt a universal help to players wanting better combo management.

Either way it was some kind of Forward Progress...

12 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

DE are very detached regarding certain things in the game that they release. I mean, we had the Bramma nerf, but then a few months later they release Kuva Zarr? I mean... the logic just isnt there

You can say that again....

[Currilicious]

On 2021-09-14 at 6:07 PM, DreisterDino said:

Edit: Just one quick example on how to make this more interesting to play, its really not that hard if you really want to improve the mission design:

1. more enemies! (right now, 3 out of 4 people can go fishing and the drone will still make it without problems)
2. enemies drop fuel cells which you can bring to the drone like in an excavation mission
3. those fuel cells make the drone go faster
4. if you want to make it really engaging, add some risk/reward mechanic: fuel cells make the drone go faster, but it can also get destroyed faster

 

Even though I like the idea of making it more interesting, I reckon people would just Loki teleport the drone all the way and skip everything. Probably radial disarm once or twice when in a pinch.

It's not like I don't understand either. Formas and to an extend potatoes seem to be a lot rarer these days. I remember getting way more of these from invasions and random alerts.