Primed Sure Footed as a Login reward and where it is placed.

[Lutesque]

10 hours ago, (PSN)caoshen0625 said:

caution shot exists

 

5 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Also this is a really good point. 

You mean Cautious Shot ? Did they finally fix it... Because it didn't work last time I checked....

 

[Tesseract7777]

9 hours ago, Lutesque said:

 

You mean Cautious Shot ? Did they finally fix it... Because it didn't work last time I checked....

 

I haven't tested it in a while because that's not my playstyle, but I found this very recent comment on the wiki... 

A Lone Tenno·7/23/2021

 

Looks like they monkeyed around with Cautious Shot and maybe self-stagger in general under the hood. The good news is that the Cautious Shot Multi Shot bug that made it pretty well useless no longer exists. Still a niche mod for people that have PSF since that negates most staggers/knock downs entirely regardless of source. (And there's no equivalent to CS for sidearms and shotguns.

 

Maybe bad news? I haven't tested much, but I'm only seeing two degrees of stagger so far with Ogris, regardless of range. The big arse-over-teakettle stagger, and then what I'd call the large flinch with CS equipped.

[Lutesque]

45 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I haven't tested it in a while because that's not my playstyle, but I found this very recent comment on the wiki... 

A Lone Tenno·7/23/2021

 

Looks like they monkeyed around with Cautious Shot and maybe self-stagger in general under the hood. The good news is that the Cautious Shot Multi Shot bug that made it pretty well useless no longer exists. Still a niche mod for people that have PSF since that negates most staggers/knock downs entirely regardless of source. (And there's no equivalent to CS for sidearms and shotguns.

 

Maybe bad news? I haven't tested much, but I'm only seeing two degrees of stagger so far with Ogris, regardless of range. The big arse-over-teakettle stagger, and then what I'd call the large flinch with CS equipped.

Sounds like it's Fixed.... Maybe now I can sell the damn thing 😝 !!!

[Tesseract7777]

Just now, Lutesque said:

Sounds like it's Fixed.... Maybe now I can sell the damn thing 😝 !!!

[Lutesque]

Just now, Tesseract7777 said:

LoL.... For Real.... I fully upgraded it and realised it it didn't work... I attempted to sell it and nobody would bite... It was like I was a Leper !!!

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

Unpopular opinion, but I think self-stagger and self-damage are awful mechanics.  They aren't fun.  The enemy doesn't have to deal with them.  I'm like 75% sure there's some bug with multishot causing the stagger radius to extend outside the blast radius, at least on certain weapons.  The amount of damage falloff never seems to mesh with the knockback falloff.  

And if self-stagger does just have to be a thing for some stupid reason, there needs to be an actually usable way to recover out of it faster.  That .000001 of a frame we have to jump out of it and into recovery is trash.  All the ragdolls and knockdowns in this game are already egregious enough and have these awful slow motion animations that look more like an old man getting up off the floor than a warframe.  We really don't need more stuff causing knockdowns.

[Leqesai]

26 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

Unpopular opinion, but I think self-stagger and self-damage are awful mechanics.  They aren't fun.  The enemy doesn't have to deal with them.  I'm like 75% sure there's some bug with multishot causing the stagger radius to extend outside the blast radius, at least on certain weapons.  The amount of damage falloff never seems to mesh with the knockback falloff.  

And if self-stagger does just have to be a thing for some stupid reason, there needs to be an actually usable way to recover out of it faster.  That .000001 of a frame we have to jump out of it and into recovery is trash.  All the ragdolls and knockdowns in this game are already egregious enough and have these awful slow motion animations that look more like an old man getting up off the floor than a warframe.  We really don't need more stuff causing knockdowns.

I agree that self stagger is dumb but self damage is good. AOE weapons are stupidly overpowered due to no risk.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

28 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

Unpopular opinion, but I think self-stagger and self-damage are awful mechanics.  They aren't fun.  The enemy doesn't have to deal with them.  I'm like 75% sure there's some bug with multishot causing the stagger radius to extend outside the blast radius, at least on certain weapons.  The amount of damage falloff never seems to mesh with the knockback falloff.  

And if self-stagger does just have to be a thing for some stupid reason, there needs to be an actually usable way to recover out of it faster.  That .000001 of a frame we have to jump out of it and into recovery is trash.  All the ragdolls and knockdowns in this game are already egregious enough and have these awful slow motion animations that look more like an old man getting up off the floor than a warframe.  We really don't need more stuff causing knockdowns.

They're not there for your fun.....it's there because an explosion is literally an outward concussive blast. 

Use the 50 ways to mitigate it or pay the price. That's what it's there for. The game is at least nice enough to give you many ways to avoid it.

[Lutesque]

8 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

Unpopular opinion, but I think self-stagger and self-damage are awful mechanics.  They aren't fun.  The enemy doesn't have to deal with them. 

The Dark Souls equivalent of this would be your weapons bouncing off a Walls and leaving you vulnerable.

8 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

I'm like 75% sure there's some bug with multishot causing the stagger radius to extend outside the blast radius, at least on certain weapons.  The amount of damage falloff never seems to mesh with the knockback falloff.  

I think the Stagger Radius is simply just larger... Multishot has nothing to do with it and it's most noticeable on the Staticor...

8 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

And if self-stagger does just have to be a thing for some stupid reason, there needs to be an actually usable way to recover out of it faster.  That .000001 of a frame we have to jump out of it and into recovery is trash.

And people are just going to use Macros or Turbos to Spam it to recover anyway so they really should just stop being stubborn and widen the window.... Leave the One Frame Timings to Fighting Games 😝 !!!

8 hours ago, Leqesai said:

I agree that self stagger is dumb but self damage is good. AOE weapons are stupidly overpowered due to no risk.

I kinda have to agree with this.... Self Damage would be nice....

8 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

They're not there for your fun.....it's there because an explosion is literally an outward concussive blast. 

It's a game... If it's not there for fun then They're doing it wrong...

8 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Use the 50 ways to mitigate it or pay the price. That's what it's there for. The game is at least nice enough to give you many ways to avoid it.

While that is better than being forced to deal with it.... Band Aids just don't feel very good to use....

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

12 hours ago, Leqesai said:

I agree that self stagger is dumb but self damage is good. AOE weapons are stupidly overpowered due to no risk.

Everything in the game is stupidly overpowered.  The TL;DR is that you can't make everything, including enemies, all be OP, introduce mechanics that require rapid mass enemy death, and then act like you need to introduce risk to the only way of efficiently dealing with the problem you created.

• Bombard rockets can turn on a dime and have a massive splash radius.  They have no self-damage, no self-stagger.
• The Juno Corpus Elite Crewman has a full-auto, rapid fire, infinite ammo, high damage Supra that fires explosive rounds with like a 6m blast radius on them.  No self-damage/stagger.  They are a common enemy type.
• Nullifiers can just instantly turn off all your defenses and buffs and completely remove many frames survivability, no matter how long those abilities might take to set up, just by brushing against you.  The bubbles clip through terrain including floors, walls and ceilings and I have posted visual evidence of this in here before (and recently.) so don't tell me "they fixed that" because I will 100% prove you wrong.  The drone you can shoot to disable them hides behind the bubble because it doesn't sit perfectly on top and that's when it's not clipped through the roof.
• There's also the Scrambus enemies that can just unavoidably turn off all your abilities, often without warning from the other side of the room.  
• I've run SP Corpus missions and even just toroid farming missions where I literally could not keep any abilities up because as soon as I cast, before effects even appear, the ability was down again from how many of these enemies there were spamming "no ability for u" abilities.  It's cheese on another level.
• Stalker can limitlessly spam a pull and a player teleport ability with zero cooldown.  If he's stuck somewhere due to crappy AI pathing you will get spammed with at an insane rate unless you are within melee range, which can be a death sentence on a squishy frame.  Limitless cheese spam.  
• The DR on Nemesis enemies is literally just "we decided that you shouldn't be able to kill them quickly no matter what, so we just turned off your damage.  Especially on your melee."  I can absolutely melt a SP Nox with several different guns and melee weapons I have and yet they hardly scratch a level 5 Nemesis.  They're just these completely arbitrary bullet sponges.  Yes I know about damage cycling on them.  The DR is completely overpowered and the only real way to counter it due to shield regen on them is to sit in an equally overpowered tank and just sit in their face dumping ammo.
• All enemies have perfect target tracking, know exactly where you are as soon as they're alerted and don't have to look for you and cannot be confused through rapid movement even the same way a player can lose tracking on a fast target.  Every one of them.  They even know where you are while you're invisible, they're just not allowed to attack you because coding.
• Enemy Necramechs can turn off your abilities, slow you to a crawl, have no reload time or ammo to worry about, no cooldown on ability spam and tiny little hit boxes that have to be cheesed with OP weapons.  Our mechs do not have these same abilities even after 5 forma and perfect modding.  They're totally fine to fight with OP cheese metas.  Complete nightmares without it because OP requires OP.
• DE didn't even try to pretend to care about scaling with Steel Path enemies.  Most are fine if you brought all your broken gear with you.  Something like a Tusk Thumper in SP has such insane DR that even with the best gear and shattering impact they're nearly immortal.  

I can keep that list running all day.  The fact of the matter is that the enemies outside basic low level missions are just as OP as we are.  And to a newer player with lower modding and less forma and less resources at their disposal those enemies can be just as OP because there is no balance on the enemies.  The fact that most high end metas revolve around abusing (and it's literally referred to by the players themselves as abuse quite often.) shield gating, and CC so hard it would be considered broken in any other game and massive AOE damage to deal with the never ending tide of enemies is a testament to the lack of balance in the game on multiple levels.  Yes AOE weapons are stupidly OP.  Because they need to be for a lot of the content we're in at late game.  It doesn't matter how strong your semi-auto single projectile rifle is.  It isn't going to deal with the hoards in harder missions fast enough.  AOE doesn't need any risk added to it because the enemy has zero risk for any of their zerg tactics and OP abilities other than the same risk the player faces which is death to overwhelming damage.  It doesn't need any extra risk because the AOE itself is nearly required if you want to be done with the harder content any time this century.  Poor drop rates also 100% play a factor in the speed that players want to move, and AOE is the answer to the speed required to farm fast enough to feel even remotely rewarding.  Again, overall game imbalance at work.

A large reason melee is so popular is not just strength, it's faster to deal with groups of enemies with it than something like an automatic rifle because it's also got an AOE.  You can't introduce mechanics like massive hoards of enemies, mission requirements for super fast kill speeds, and enemy damage that requires you to kill first or die from a dozen aimbots targeting you at the same time and then go "Why is everyone gravitating toward any weapon that can kill groups all at once?  We need to introduce risk to the solution for this problem we created."  Stagger and self damage that can oneshot any frame doesn't need to exist, and no, bandaid login mods with 16 drain are not a good answer.

I could 100% understand self stagger at an extremely limited range so that you can't point blank enemies, but the stagger often extends outside the area where you're doing any real damage.  I could understand self damage that only affected shields, or did a set tiny % of player HP no matter how strong the weapon is, but what we have right now isn't that and it's extremely poorly implemented.

[ArmsForPeace84]

No real issues with it. Even as someone who started over on PC after unlocking this mod on console.

I'm looking forward to saving a mod slot by equipping it, in place of the two mods I currently stack to, depending on my build, either eliminate 90% of knockdown/stagger effects or make recovery nearly instantaneous 100% of the time. That's a fair reward for 400 daily logins, I think. But also not something I'm suffering for not having access to right this minute.

[Lutesque]

8 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

•  
• Stalker can limitlessly spam a pull and a player teleport ability with zero cooldown.  If he's stuck somewhere due to crappy AI pathing you will get spammed with at an insane rate unless you are within melee range, which can be a death sentence on a squishy frame.  Limitless cheese spam

I had this happen to me when I started Warframe over again... Stalker decided to come for me when I was terribly undergeared so naturally I didn't stick around to Fight Him.... So he Teleported me backwards... Over and Over again... I think it was like more than 10 Times before He finally bugged out and I was able to get away...

8 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

All enemies have perfect target tracking, know exactly where you are as soon as they're alerted and don't have to look for you and cannot be confused through rapid movement even the same way a player can lose tracking on a fast target.  Every one of them.  They even know where you are while you're invisible, they're just not allowed to attack you because coding

LoL .... It's funny but True...

8 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

I could 100% understand self stagger at an extremely limited range so that you can't point blank enemies, but the stagger often extends outside the area where you're doing any real damage.

It's when I discovered this combined with the Stagger Recovery being impossible to pull off in Practice that I realised DE was Balancing in Bad Faith Again... 

 

[Leqesai]

8 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

Everything in the game is stupidly overpowered.  The TL;DR is that you can't make everything, including enemies, all be OP, introduce mechanics that require rapid mass enemy death, and then act like you need to introduce risk to the only way of efficiently dealing with the problem you created.

• Bombard rockets can turn on a dime and have a massive splash radius.  They have no self-damage, no self-stagger.
• The Juno Corpus Elite Crewman has a full-auto, rapid fire, infinite ammo, high damage Supra that fires explosive rounds with like a 6m blast radius on them.  No self-damage/stagger.  They are a common enemy type.
• Nullifiers can just instantly turn off all your defenses and buffs and completely remove many frames survivability, no matter how long those abilities might take to set up, just by brushing against you.  The bubbles clip through terrain including floors, walls and ceilings and I have posted visual evidence of this in here before (and recently.) so don't tell me "they fixed that" because I will 100% prove you wrong.  The drone you can shoot to disable them hides behind the bubble because it doesn't sit perfectly on top and that's when it's not clipped through the roof.
• There's also the Scrambus enemies that can just unavoidably turn off all your abilities, often without warning from the other side of the room.  
• I've run SP Corpus missions and even just toroid farming missions where I literally could not keep any abilities up because as soon as I cast, before effects even appear, the ability was down again from how many of these enemies there were spamming "no ability for u" abilities.  It's cheese on another level.
• Stalker can limitlessly spam a pull and a player teleport ability with zero cooldown.  If he's stuck somewhere due to crappy AI pathing you will get spammed with at an insane rate unless you are within melee range, which can be a death sentence on a squishy frame.  Limitless cheese spam.  
• The DR on Nemesis enemies is literally just "we decided that you shouldn't be able to kill them quickly no matter what, so we just turned off your damage.  Especially on your melee."  I can absolutely melt a SP Nox with several different guns and melee weapons I have and yet they hardly scratch a level 5 Nemesis.  They're just these completely arbitrary bullet sponges.  Yes I know about damage cycling on them.  The DR is completely overpowered and the only real way to counter it due to shield regen on them is to sit in an equally overpowered tank and just sit in their face dumping ammo.
• All enemies have perfect target tracking, know exactly where you are as soon as they're alerted and don't have to look for you and cannot be confused through rapid movement even the same way a player can lose tracking on a fast target.  Every one of them.  They even know where you are while you're invisible, they're just not allowed to attack you because coding.
• Enemy Necramechs can turn off your abilities, slow you to a crawl, have no reload time or ammo to worry about, no cooldown on ability spam and tiny little hit boxes that have to be cheesed with OP weapons.  Our mechs do not have these same abilities even after 5 forma and perfect modding.  They're totally fine to fight with OP cheese metas.  Complete nightmares without it because OP requires OP.
• DE didn't even try to pretend to care about scaling with Steel Path enemies.  Most are fine if you brought all your broken gear with you.  Something like a Tusk Thumper in SP has such insane DR that even with the best gear and shattering impact they're nearly immortal.  

I can keep that list running all day.  The fact of the matter is that the enemies outside basic low level missions are just as OP as we are.  And to a newer player with lower modding and less forma and less resources at their disposal those enemies can be just as OP because there is no balance on the enemies.  The fact that most high end metas revolve around abusing (and it's literally referred to by the players themselves as abuse quite often.) shield gating, and CC so hard it would be considered broken in any other game and massive AOE damage to deal with the never ending tide of enemies is a testament to the lack of balance in the game on multiple levels.  Yes AOE weapons are stupidly OP.  Because they need to be for a lot of the content we're in at late game.  It doesn't matter how strong your semi-auto single projectile rifle is.  It isn't going to deal with the hoards in harder missions fast enough.  AOE doesn't need any risk added to it because the enemy has zero risk for any of their zerg tactics and OP abilities other than the same risk the player faces which is death to overwhelming damage.  It doesn't need any extra risk because the AOE itself is nearly required if you want to be done with the harder content any time this century.  Poor drop rates also 100% play a factor in the speed that players want to move, and AOE is the answer to the speed required to farm fast enough to feel even remotely rewarding.  Again, overall game imbalance at work.

A large reason melee is so popular is not just strength, it's faster to deal with groups of enemies with it than something like an automatic rifle because it's also got an AOE.  You can't introduce mechanics like massive hoards of enemies, mission requirements for super fast kill speeds, and enemy damage that requires you to kill first or die from a dozen aimbots targeting you at the same time and then go "Why is everyone gravitating toward any weapon that can kill groups all at once?  We need to introduce risk to the solution for this problem we created."  Stagger and self damage that can oneshot any frame doesn't need to exist, and no, bandaid login mods with 16 drain are not a good answer.

I could 100% understand self stagger at an extremely limited range so that you can't point blank enemies, but the stagger often extends outside the area where you're doing any real damage.  I could understand self damage that only affected shields, or did a set tiny % of player HP no matter how strong the weapon is, but what we have right now isn't that and it's extremely poorly implemented.

While I certainly don't disagree with you, when I say AOE weapons are OP I'm not talking about them being one of a bunch of similarly overpowered systems. I'm talking about them being overpowered relative to other weapons. Its simple math, the AOE weapons are able to output considerably more DPS than other weapons, which is disproportionately powerful given we have hundreds of weapons to choose from and there is no reason someone would ever go with a non-AOE weapon unless to hinder their effectiveness.

This is problematic because the considerable DPS output by AOE weapons makes most combat situations easier, making most content easier. 

I agree that much of Warframe is about being really powerful, but  AOE weapons having zero risk (stagger is annoying but it isn't a risk IMO) and 4-5x higher DPS potential (one shot can kill anywhere between 10 to 20 enemies depending on density compared to  non-AOE killing what... maybe 4-5 with a well placed punchthrough shot? It isn't even that AOE weapons are strictly better in a radius, some of the AOE weapons are also up there in terms of single target damage, as well. 

Point is, because AOE weapons are only mitigated by annoying stagger, something like Primed Sure Footed that completely negates it (and a bunch of general stagger/knockdown from enemies) locked behind login rewards is a little ridiculous. Primed Sure Footed is very very good and locking it behind a time wall seems absurd. I mean, to be fair all of the Primed mods that are locked behind login rewards are really good but Primed Sure Footed is disproportionately good considering how powerful AOE weapons are once you have absolutely no downside to using them whatsoever. 

AOE weapons are simply far too strong relative to their non-AOE counterparts. It is piss-poor design by DE and invalidates all/most weapons that come out with non-AOE properties (unless you want to make things harder on yourself). 

And yeah, the reason AOE weapons are powerful is very similar to the reason melee weapons are powerful. Melee weapons are powerful essentially because they are free AOE DPS. There is a reason you don't see people running Destrezza. The pokey poke stance makes the weapon dang near useless compared to most other weapon types.

[Silligoose]

Primed Sure Footed is too strong, regardless of where and how it can be obtained and needs a tap with the ol' nerf hammer.

[-AncientWarrior-]

On 2021-09-16 at 12:47 AM, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I just got mine. I've only been playing around a year and a half or something.

Sounds like the incentive works fine:

You quit off and on for years while I played steadily. I should be rewarded for staying with the game and you shouldn't until you can do what me and others players did.

Edit: more than a year but you get the point.

Yeah this say it all.. 👍 Primed Sure Footed, its the first mod I put on any frame .. Best utility mod there is .. and it should have to be earned in some form.. you have the alternatives to use but yes they take up an extra slot.. but those who put in the time deserve the dime.

[(PSN)shann_cz]

On 2021-09-15 at 12:03 AM, Farron. said:

    I just think that Primed Sure Footed's effects on raw gameplay mechanics is too strong to be locked at something like 400 days.    

    

Yes, I just got to 400days and got "Primed Sure footed". I didn't know it is 400day reward, I'm mostly solo player but when I saw that mod selection it was no-brainer to choose Sure-footed..

[AegidiusF]

Le 15/09/2021 à 00:03, Farron. a dit :

Insert Primed Surefooted into the mix, one of the most undervalued mods by new players but loved by veterans and hardcore players. In the current Firestorm and AOE grouping meta this mod is a guaranteed exilus slot on every warframe. AOE weapons are widely used due to ammo efficiency and damage output needed for higher end content. For example without Prime Sure Footed you could shoot an enemy on the other side of the room and still get knocked down in normal indoor missions. People say Handspring/ Un-primed Sure Footed are ways to cope with it and while it is very doable in lower tier content makes the gameplay still feel incredibly poor. 100% is 100% and not 60% and Handspring still locks you in animation and if you get knocked down or animation locked when you shouldn't be in the Steel Path you are most likely dead. Not saying the knockdowns and knockbacks need to be removed or looked at but to be more available to be played around for newer players or players like me who can't log in every day.

I don't know if you have noticed, but CAUTIOUS SHOT has been recently buffed and it has now a 100% reduction of self-stagger effects. (before, it was 90%).

Also, as other players have said, Titania's SPELLBIND ability, which can be infused to other frames, also prevents from sef-stagger.

Primed Surefooted is not really necessary. I use it on barely two frames (and many frames don't even need this kind of mod). I've made all my Steel Path without Primed Surefooted, and many survavil runs to farm resources on Steel Path, and it was never a problem not to have Primed Surefooted equipped on my frame.

I understand, nonetheless, your post, as I use very often AoE weapons such as the Kuva Bramma, Sporelacer kitgun, Akarius, every time with Primed Firestorm or Primed Fulmination on them, but there are many other great weapons without AoE to be used and that can be much more deadly than AoE weapons.

[T-Shark69]

On 2021-09-15 at 12:29 AM, Leqesai said:

Locking something so overpowered behind login rewards is a really asinine design choice

I think the more asinine design choice was to go through all that work to introduce stagger animations for AOE weapons when removing self damage, only for that drawback to be removed by a milestone mod and a bunch of abilities (That shifted the meta hevaily towards big boom weapons). Then a year later made Cautious Shot a 100% resistance. Couldnt they like...do that since the begining? Dev time saved, no stagger on non self damage weapons/operator, and no need for PSF. 

[Leqesai]

6 hours ago, T-Shark69 said:

I think the more asinine design choice was to go through all that work to introduce stagger animations for AOE weapons when removing self damage, only for that drawback to be removed by a milestone mod and a bunch of abilities (That shifted the meta hevaily towards big boom weapons). Then a year later made Cautious Shot a 100% resistance. Couldnt they like...do that since the begining? Dev time saved, no stagger on non self damage weapons/operator, and no need for PSF. 

I agree.