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DE, more communication would be greatly appreciated


iPathos
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4 hours ago, vanaukas said:

this read extremely similar to those persons that harasses someone on dms asking for attention

I mean the OP did actually message me for that initial comment of mine so...

 

To the topic at hand, issue with feedback is everyone thinks their idea is perfect and necessary but rarely do you get a consensus on a particular topic, so which feedback is picked?.  There are also some bugs that are practically impossible to fix as bad as that sounds, as the time need to fix the issue while not breaking or making more issues is not worth it.  There are also issues that in the grand scheme don't matter enough to fix.   I also understand why they wouldn't come out and say "bug x won't get fixed because y" as it would just lead to more threads about how DE doesn't care about bug x. 

Bringing up the changes to the Ghoul Saw stance doesn't mean they won't buff or tweak the ghoul saw latter, but more they want to adjust the stance first as it will apply to other weapons in that class if they get added in the future and if it isn't where they want might as well adjust it now and see how things feel then later on.  Also not every weapon needs to be amazing or better than some of the current weapons we have, some can just have a unique aspect or look cool.  

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11 minutes ago, trst said:

They did not do "absolutely nothing". The aoe used to be tied to the ragdolled corpse and the values were far lower and those changes were made out of the test server feedback.

That seems more like a sidecase bugfix then a universal fix for the generally accepted poor values/power those arcanes had, especially given their 2 slot cost. But i stand corrected that they did "absolutely nothing".

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1 hour ago, yarl5000 said:

I mean the OP did actually message me for that initial comment of mine so...

 

To the topic at hand, issue with feedback is everyone thinks their idea is perfect and necessary but rarely do you get a consensus on a particular topic, so which feedback is picked?.  There are also some bugs that are practically impossible to fix as bad as that sounds, as the time need to fix the issue while not breaking or making more issues is not worth it.  There are also issues that in the grand scheme don't matter enough to fix.   I also understand why they wouldn't come out and say "bug x won't get fixed because y" as it would just lead to more threads about how DE doesn't care about bug x. 

Bringing up the changes to the Ghoul Saw stance doesn't mean they won't buff or tweak the ghoul saw latter, but more they want to adjust the stance first as it will apply to other weapons in that class if they get added in the future and if it isn't where they want might as well adjust it now and see how things feel then later on.  Also not every weapon needs to be amazing or better than some of the current weapons we have, some can just have a unique aspect or look cool.  

Well done keeping the message topic ambiguous, if you hadn't replied with such little contribution to the thread and actual acknowledgement of the fact the same issue you highlighted needed to be fixed a second time (let alone that it still didn't fix the problem entirely as those who have a "bad invigoration" are simply SoL), then maybe I wouldn't have felt the need to clarify.

Spoiler

gXgOd9lGZ

In case you missed the pages of responses thus far, it's pretty clear my main concern is the lack of acknowledgement or response to overwhelming majority feedback (holokeys, Yareli, Ghoulsaw) and the apparent ignoring of most bug reports. If you'd taken the time to reply with what you've said now, I'd have had no need to clarify on anything other than the fact I read the patch notes - but even now you seem to be missing a large part about what this thread is targeted towards.

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7 hours ago, iPathos said:

It's almost like I've helped administrate the Community Discord for several years and have come across this mindset ad infinitum. This is in a forum and it is being discussed - nothing about entitlement necessary. It's a frustrating reality that I wanted to both gather other opinions on and to highlight a known issue at the same time. DE asks for feedback, sure, we'll give em feedback. The part that ends up rubbing people the wrong way there is the perceived ignoring of said feedback, even when everyone is giving different statements to the same end. I've already said that I've spent years on-and-off just reporting bugs, rarely even choosing to give feedback towards the game and in which ways I think it could improve. You're conveniently excluding the fact that many (most, actually) of the bugs which are both 100% reproduceable, have detailed information and/or are extremely common aren't publicly acknowledged in any capacity, which ties back into what I said above to trst. As things are, yeah I can see it being a difficult or time-consuming slog through the pages and pages of player input - that is why I suggest minor changes like the tags to simplify the job for them. Categorization, even something along the lines of Reddit Flair to indicate status, bot-linking those things to the Trello board etc.

You're welcome to your opinion, I respectfully disagree and will continue to request that DE acknowledge this issue until something changes for the better - it's a form of feedback and even with my layman's understanding of the underlying technology/practices I can confidently say it would help player perception at the very least.

The playerbase is well familiar with the phrase "soon" meaning anything from next hotfix to a few years away, need I find the "Primed Soon" meme mod image with Steve's pursed lips centerstage? The problem with not having any indication is that we don't even know if it's seen, scrolled through, being worked on, understood, in need of more details, lacking in sample size, difficulty in reproduction; pick your poison.

Don't agree with my PoV on this? Cool, good for you, you're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine.

Yeah, got no cares one way or another about "community discord" or whatever; also its not about a "mindset" but literally paying attention to the updates that have been put out at any given time. Kuva Liches? Popped out after whining about no endgame/challenge and regardless of how they turned out were an early attempt at, at least going towards that; same with Railjack which in its original version was clearly aimed towards endgame people. Even tapping into the "content drought" idiocy, when DE tried to quickly get that content out. Even with the RJ aspect the "multiple combating voices" is shown in some wanting the original version, while those like me vastly prefer the current iteration; 2 sets of voices to be heard.

Oh I can assure there's plenty entitlement involved in this. When you whine and accuse a dev of not specifically listening to YOU, its entitlement as you're expecting the game to cater to YOU. That you're owed the bigger spotlight over everyone else. Not to mention the ignoring of various bts things that make what you're whining about a complex issue, because YOU don't care about that part only what YOU want.

"Fix the bugs!" -you

"Um to fix x,y, and z bugs it means having a cascade of these 10 other bugs also we have this other major thing taking up most of the focus currently"-programmer

"Don't care fix x,y, and z bugs, also do it by next week!" -you

-doesn't happen and instead there's a plethora of other things done that go towards other asks-

"omg DE doesn't listen!" -you

I've sat through YEARS of bugs in various mmo's and let the company behind them handle them, company's FAR more guilty of "not listening" than DE. Also you seem to miss the concept of your "fix the bugs" being against other's "give new content" or other's "give endgame content" or any number of other things. Not to mention the non-community New War that is what DE themselves are focused on in essence being their own voice in the mix. I'd wager the other "voices" in those camps would be just as "on their soapbox" as you are over their wants.

Disagree or don't, I really couldn't care less. I'll just continue to sigh at the current generation of mmo/online gamers that are filled with entitlement and "soapbox yelling".

Newsflash: Not YOUR game, its DE's game. They decide what should be focused on at any given time and ngl I will take them working on New War to get it out over bug fixes as a priority. Also once again what YOU want isn't reflective of what others want, everyone has their own thing to shout about; DE is stuck trying to bend a thousand different directions to try to address all they can. Its most definitely not a sign/showing that "DE doesn't listen".

Opinions aren't untouchable things. You put yours out into the public, thus making it fully open to being torn into/called out/pushed back on. Especially in my case as someone who's been online gaming for over 10 years or so now with various companies and their games.

Edited by CrimsonXX
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6 hours ago, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

You are one person. Even if we got someone else the exact same age, height, weight, ethnicity etc of you, they would have a different opinion than you. If we rounded up 1000 people exactly like you, we would have 1000 different opinions.

That's not exactly true. If you consider e.g. "how hot you like your (Pro)tea". /joke/ Then if you ask 100 people everyone could answer with different answer. However answers may be not very different. For example one may answer 80.1C and another person 80.2C. You could probably group temperatures per one Celsius degree (e.g. 80, 81, 88 etc). Taking range from 80C to 90C you would have only 10 groups.

Sometimes, indeed, you have many different suggestion/opinion on given topic.

 

Some parts of suggestions are almost 1 way to solve (e.g. fix Amalgam furax that won't proc stuns - just put stuns).

Look at Holo topic. I bet you would find some people that don't need changes because they were lucky. Probably lot of people would like guaranteed drop. Both of those group would be fine if a mission gives you at least 1 guaranteed drop. I bet you would find few people that are against guaranteed drop but I guess some of them are ill informed (they may think that just because they were lucky everyone are). That would be majority of that topic. That's around 750 post (30 pages per 25 post per page afair) that complains about not gaining Holos at all not about quantity of drops. What they have done? They increased drops from normal mission - that doesn't change too much. They made Sister drops one Holo per sister - that's good "addition" if you are doing but lots of people have already done it OR they don't want Sisters or Sister's weapons (e.g. me). That's not listening to pretty much single opinion with very easy fix (there were more complex solution).

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Answering and acknowledging regarding bugs etc. would be highly pointless and that time would be spent better doing other things, like reading through more bug report threads and shipping it all off to those that fix it. The only time I'd like to see more communication and the devs possibly listening more would be when it comes to workshop threads. Planned changes are highly uninteresting to me if there isnt a chance that those planned changes may change based on feedback. In such a case they can just post a "we gonna change this in some way" then post the details in the patch notes instead.

The Yareli changes workshop was met with deaf ears, more or less the same deal with Holokeys and prior to that DEimos arcanes.

But expecting acknowledgements, communcation, answers regarding the most trivial of bugs and changes is just silly and entitled imo. 

Edited by SneakyErvin
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On 2021-09-14 at 7:50 PM, iPathos said:

Amalgam Furax Body Count behaving incorrectly because of the changes made with "Melee 3.0"

If you're referring to the knockdown, this 'issue' has nothing to do with the melee changes and the mod is working normally, the text of the mod is simply incorrect. The mod triggers blast procs, it applies 6 stacks and you'll sometimes see 0 blast damage show up. For what ever reason DE decided to say "knockdown" instead. At the time, blast did trigger knockdowns, however, DE changed blast at some point due to people complaining about it being a negative for "guns", similar reason for slight impact changes.

Otherwise, discussing the community as if there's only one perspective is meaningless. DE does listen to people, they just aren't people that share your view points.

Even you mentioning the Ghoulsaw issue is an example of this. Some people did complain the stance had poor multipliers, there's even a thread about it in the feedback section and how even garbage swords outperform it.

I'm not even sure why you're acting like this wasn't always the case, if you felt like DE was "listening to the community" in the past, it's only because DE took feedback from people you happen to agree with at the time, or DE was coincidentally designing the game in a way you wanted at the time. I've played since the Steam release, and never felt like DE behaved any different compared to other developers that communicated as much as they were.

Edited by Yamazuki
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On 2021-09-15 at 3:50 AM, iPathos said:

Right, I'm pushed to doing this because I am sick to death of DE either ignoring entirely, or refusing to respond, expand on, detail, acknowledge, or in any way interact with the community outside of their own very limited stream response. Sure, they have a lot of "community streams" happening, but the actual responses given to any real concerns during those is little to none on  a good day. I'm tired, I'm annoyed, I'm frustrated and I'm entirely sure they can do better. This has nothing to do with company acquisition behind the scenes - that happens with any game studio. This is longer-standing than that.

You used to be known as the devs who stood out because of how much you listened to the players, how much you really considered their input into your game and their feedback around not just what went in, but also what was an idea.

I understand that COVID-19 has been a barrier in many more ways than one, but this started before that even came onto the scene - it's only gotten that much worse since it did. I love Warframe, if I didn't I wouldn't have spent 4500+ hours in-mission and well over 12000 hours in total otherwise. If I didn't, I wouldn't have applied for the Guide of the Lotus position when it was known that you needed someone from the Oceanic region. I don't regret my input and time dedication because of that, but it does it make me question your own choices as we stand here.

 

The fact you even have bug report forums with a proper format is a huge boon, some of us have spent years asking you to fix those bugs with that exact format ad-infinitum. But here we are, with the bugs still in the game and with (in almost every case) no response. Please, both now and when you can act properly without having to worry about quarantine or social distancing, try to go back to why we loved you as developers in the first place. It's a sad story to even try to look at things as they are, it honestly depresses me and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Also, as an aside; the Warframe Community Discord has never lost love for the game. We want to try contribute how we can to the community as a whole and to try to improve the game as best we see. Please, please, PLEASE; respond to people. It is not a good look and it makes us ever more frustrated as we await acknowledgement while reporting things that to many are very obvious.

As a few examples;

  • Voidrig's helmet spinning incorrectly with any other helmet than its default
  • Amalgam Furax Body Count behaving incorrectly because of the changes made with "Melee 3.0"
  • Many multiples of out-of-bounds areas being issues even though said areas are not out of bounds (such as several doors in the new corpus gas city tileset - they reset you for no reason with no preamble)
  • The current issue with Pathocyst dealing half of the damage it should when using Heavy Attacks.
  • Nidus Prime not counting for Invigorations (I am aware this may have been fixed with today's hotfix, I do not have Nidus Prime so I cannot confirm this from my own experience even so. The point is that it was still broken even after the first "fix".)
  • Merulina simply not allowing movement through multiple tilesets because of vertical issues where you "bonk your head", let alone the fact it should be moddable.
  • Expanded buff icons (only specific ones) for no reason
  • The issue with Buzlok and the Tenet Diplos's homing shots being almost incapable of hitting some enemies because they orbit endlessly til they time out.

There is a plethora of things that need to be acknowledged, if not at the very least told "Yes we're fixing it".
Talk to us. Let us know. Be the devs that let us fall in love with your creation, because as of late it just makes many of us angry about what you've become.

More people need to point this out because regardless of what some players that defend DE when they really shouldn't be say, they don't get it and I doubt they've even played the game long enough to see the problems that people like you and I know. their ignorance will just serve to kill the game that we love.

 

I'd also like to add that DE doesn't actually test their content before releasing it and anyone who disagrees with that should think back on the issue where necramech's couldn't pick up energy orbs and let's not forget that extra mod slot on the arquebex that my friend lost a forma because of. If DE tested their content before releasing it things wouldn't be as horrible as they are.

 

7 hours ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

You also have to realize that not all of your ideas are good or goes towards where they want their game to go. 

They listen a lot more than what you think but because you are only looking at things they aren't doing you think otherwise.

Just because they want their game to go in a certain direction doesn't mean it's good, sometimes developers need to adapt their game to fit the playerbase in order to keep it from dying. the majority of their new content is copy paste of old content with some minor alterations. the game is stagnant and is in need of change.
 

Also having content locked behind overly buggy content ex. railjack just so players are forced to do it is not the way to keep a game alive. I've also

noticed that the DEVS seem to ignore anyone with an opinion that doesn't fit their view which as my friend pointed out is similar to a politician.
 

before you say stuff like they listen a lot more than what you think look into the deeper parts of it and see how much they just outright ignore. this thread is much needed and

DE needs to pay more attention to the people that disagree with them, because criticism is important for anything to grow.
 

I've seen many games die because the developers don't take the criticism of their playerbase seriously and if you look into the playerbase drop of this year you'll see that this game is heading in a bad direction.

 

6 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

 

If you're referring to the knockdown, this 'issue' has nothing to do with the melee changes and the mod is working normally, the text of the mod is simply incorrect. The mod triggers blast procs, it applies 6 stacks and you'll sometimes see 0 blast damage show up. For what ever reason DE decided to say "knockdown" instead. At the time, blast did trigger knockdowns, however, DE changed blast at some point due to people complaining about it being a negative for "guns", similar reason for slight impact changes.

Otherwise, discussing the community as if there's only one perspective is meaningless. DE does listen to people, they just aren't people that share your view points.

Even you mentioning the Ghoulsaw issue is an example of this. Some people did complain the stance had poor multipliers, there's even a thread about it in the feedback section and how even garbage swords outperform it.

I'm not even sure why you're acting like this wasn't always the case, if you felt like DE was "listening to the community" in the past, it's only because DE took feedback from people you happen to agree with at the time, or DE was coincidentally designing the game in a way you wanted at the time. I've played since the Steam release, and never felt like DE behaved any different compared to other developers that communicated as much as they were.

while i agree with you that some of his examples aren't the best, the overall idea he's getting across is right. for example the buff to the ghoulsaws stance multipliers is followed with

a riven disposition nerf meaning they go one step forward and 3 steps back. The ghoulsaw will preform less effectively overall for anyone who managed to get a riven for it and

anyone who rolled for a specific roll wasted their kuva and time. one of the biggest issues is that the devs don't take into consideration the players time and work.

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On 2021-09-14 at 7:50 PM, iPathos said:

There is a plethora of things that need to be acknowledged, if not at the very least told "Yes we're fixing it".

I think it's dishonest that you are framing "DE doesn't tell me they're fixing the bugs I care about" and "DE doesn't implement the features I want" as "DE doesn't care about the game".  You are not the game.

But beyond the framing, let's get to the meat of the issue...


TL;DR - Not all bugs in games get fixed, because not all bugs are created equal.  Any time spent fixing a bug could be spent creating content or addressing other bugs, and that trade-off has to be measured.  It would be incredibly foolish to tell someone you're fixing a bug, because it's entirely possible that it won't be possible to fix in a cost-effective way, meaning you would have just given them false hope which will lead to more frustration.


Detailed version:

Your post suggests that you don't understand video game development.  Which is fine, most people don't, because most people don't do video game development.  So I'll try to fill in the relevant informational gap in the paragraphs to come.

Fixing a bug involves a few stages.  First, you have to be able to reproduce the bug.  If the bug doesn't consistently happen for all users, this might be a challenge.

Once you can reproduce the bug, you have to find the part of the code that is making it happen.  This is often the trickiest part.  The larger and more intersecting your code is, the longer it can take to pinpoint where it's happening.  If you're a programmer, you probably have a pretty good idea of how long it would take to make a new feature.  You can put an estimate on that.  However, for finding a bug, the estimate is usually "I'll know once I've found it".

Finally, you have to fix it.  For some bugs this is trivial after you find the offending code, but sometimes it can be very tricky.  For example, sometimes the bug is a side-effect of code that otherwise works, and fixing the bug requires rewriting a significant amount of other code.  Now you're not "just" fixing a bug, but replacing an existing working system.  You often risk adding new bugs by doing something like this.  In some cases, even if you locate the bug, the cost of correcting it may be more than the team thinks it can afford.

Also, the "size" of the bug doesn't have much to do with how easy it is to fix; that just determines how important it is to fix.  A bug that crashes the game might be easy to find and fix, while a bug that affects just one weapon or one UI marker might take years.  That's why when bugs are found, they are typically assigned a number that represents how important they are to fix.  The P1 bugs will always be fixed first, followed by the P2 bugs, etc.  And since new bugs are found all the time and resources are limited, unfortunately that often means that P5 bugs can linger for a long time, and some may never be fixed.

So what does this mean for a player?  Quite simply, it means that the bugs you care about may never be fixed.  And while that's certainly a bummer, it's for the best.  If your bug wasn't fixed, it means that DE determined that at this point, fixing that bug isn't worth the time it would take away from fixing other bugs or creating new content.

In short, while it's a bummer that your Necramech's head spins if you give it different hats, it would be more of a bummer if the New War was delayed or a more impactful bug wasn't addressed.

And that being the case, it's best practice for DE to not tell you they are looking at a bug.  Telling players that a bug is being looked is guaranteed to lead to frustration when those bugs that were "looked at" weren't ever fixed because they were too time-consuming or too low priority. 

If you put a bug in the bug report forum, just trust that they have seen it and that it's logged somewhere, and that they'll get around to fixing it when they can, which may be never.  You'll know your bug is fixed when you see it in the patch notes, and that's the limit of what DE's communication should be about the issue.

 

Edited by (PSN)Unstar
removed a false negative typo
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25 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

I think it's dishonest that you are framing "DE doesn't tell me they're fixing the bugs I care about" and "DE doesn't implement the features I want" as "DE doesn't care about the game".  You are not the game.

while i more or less agree with this statement the forum has truth to it with some things such as the diversion of recourses to trivial things while game breaking issues still persist. and while i get that it can be hard to fix bugs DE has their priorities skewed quite often focusing on nerfs which don't actually balance the game or small fixes typos. people notice this type of stuff and it is concerning.

Edited by (XBOX)Harbinger XK5
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1 hour ago, (XBOX)Harbinger XK5 said:

Just because they want their game to go in a certain direction doesn't mean it's good, sometimes developers need to adapt their game to fit the playerbase in

order to keep it from dying. the majority of their new content is copy paste of old content with some minor alterations. the game is stagnant and is in need of

change. Also having content locked behind overly buggy content ex. railjack just so players are forced to do it is not the way to keep a game alive. I've also

noticed that the DEVS seem to ignore anyone with an opinion that doesn't fit their view which as my friend pointed out is similar to a politician. before you say

stuff like they listen a lot more than what you think look into the deeper parts of it and see how much they just outright ignore. this thread is much needed and

DE needs to pay more attention to the people that disagree with them, because criticism is important for anything to grow. I've seen many games die because

the developers don't take the criticism of their playerbase seriously and if you look into the playerbase drop of this year you'll see that this game is heading in

a bad direction.

As said elsewhere, they already listen. They cant listen to everyone, and they shouldnt. They've listened plenty regarding railjack (and how exactly is it bugged?), liches, newer frames (Yareli being an exception) and the people that want more story driven content. Parts of the changes I've been happy with, other parts not so much, but not everything can aim to please me, and the same goes for you and everyone else that is part of the playerbase.

I'm also not sure what games you refer to that have died. I guess many is easy to claim without providing any actual examples. And there hasnt been any massive drop off in WF this year. It has had the same up and down numbers for the last 3 years or so, which are also healthy numbers.

DE is probably one of few companies that actually listen to their playerbase and provide decent amounts of concrete info on upcoming changes and so on. DE's main boo-boo is that they used to hype things too much long ahead of release time. And they've corrected that pretty much, which is good.

In the end you and others need to realize and accept that you are part of millions of players, so chances that your wishes wont be granted are quite big, since someone else might have a better idea or bring something to attention of higher priority. Deal with it like the rest of us have in WF and several other live service games over the years.

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39 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

They've listened plenty regarding railjack (and how exactly is it bugged?)

Let's see being constantly thrown out of the objective for no reason up until it fails, liches not spawning when they're supposed to, doors not opening until you use transference assuming the game has bugged out and says abilities unavailable, side turrets not functioning.

outside of bugs the lazy copy paste of already existing tileset's for dull missions in railjack ex. Mobile defense, exterminate, etc. on an added note: While this is the opinion of myself and quite of few other people I've talked to, when i heard about railjack I thought i was going to be flying my ship for the mission not spending 60% of the mission in copy paste tileset's. The only part of railjack that I and anyone i talk to likes is the flying of the railjack, one the best examples of things said is when i was talking to a random on one of the void storms and he said, "If i wanted to an exterminate mission i wouldn't be doing railjack.

54 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And there hasnt been any massive drop off in WF this year. It has had the same up and down numbers for the last 3 years or so, which are also healthy numbers.

I also took a closer look and the demographics for the playerbase since it came out to now and it's not as bad I was led to believe but still if they improved on their tutorial there would be a lot more players. The tutorial expects you know already know everything outside of how to shoot, parkour, and hack.

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9 minutes ago, (XBOX)TyeGoo said:

They should listen to me asking for the option to increase enemy spawns for all content, since it now works on all platforms with steel path.. certain missions are literally unplayable and or awfully boring without enemies.. :( 

that would be nice some tilesets just feel empty and it's a real bore.

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2 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

If you're referring to the knockdown, this 'issue' has nothing to do with the melee changes and the mod is working normally, the text of the mod is simply incorrect. The mod triggers blast procs, it applies 6 stacks and you'll sometimes see 0 blast damage show up. For what ever reason DE decided to say "knockdown" instead. At the time, blast did trigger knockdowns, however, DE changed blast at some point due to people complaining about it being a negative for "guns", similar reason for slight impact changes.

Citation needed.

I would go with this reasoning:

They wanted make Amalgam Furax knockdown enemies so they just used blast proc. As blast proc, at that time, used to knockown enemies. They changed blast proc but forgot about this mod.

Why I think that's what happened? Knockdown is very specific effect not like generic +/- HP/shield/armor proc. I think it was intended that way (to knockdown enemies).

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  • iPathos changed the title to DE, more communication would be greatly appreciated
15 minutes ago, quxier said:

Citation needed.

I would go with this reasoning:

They wanted make Amalgam Furax knockdown enemies so they just used blast proc. As blast proc, at that time, used to knockown enemies. They changed blast proc but forgot about this mod.

Why I think that's what happened? Knockdown is very specific effect not like generic +/- HP/shield/armor proc. I think it was intended that way (to knockdown enemies).

This is my perception of the matter. I believe they used blast because it knocked enemies down, else they would have stated it applies blast procs to enemies in range. This is also why within that same mentioned bug thread I suggest trying to translate the knockdown effect from Arcane Eruption over to Amalgam Furax Body Count - it's a non-damaging, non-status-causing (as far as I'm aware, outside knockdown itself) effect that does exactly "what it says on the tin" just with a different activation condition.

I won't be responding to many of the posts in the last 12h for a while, as it seems the majority either haven't read the whole thread and the clarifications made throughout, or they are completely missing the point while making assumptions. I've clarified on my initial points at the bottom of the OP and also changed the topic name to something a little more accurate, hopefully that explains the reasoning and position a little better.

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I think I'm going to re-post this previous response to a similar thread made last year as it is still very relevant today:

The reality is that DE publicly say they listen to feedback, but privately, they have an Overton window of feedback they are actually willing to act upon.

This was made crystal-clear last year with the status proc revisions considering the improved procs mirrored their late 2017 plans with damage 2.5 exactly as initially presented despite the rejection and backlash. That convinced me that it's not just that they're stubborn, but that their plans are set in stone and that they rarely (If ever) consider feedback that falls outside their initial intended plans.

Sure, they didn't make those changes in 2017, but they tried again in 2020. Here are the original Damage 2.5 plans from 2017:

Quote

In an update coming soon, we will be making changes to IPS status effects and proc damage calculation. Our primary goal was improving Impact and Puncture; both of these procs will now scale in effectiveness, based on the damage dealt. An Impact proc with a small damage output (like a single Akstilletto bullet) will still only cause a short stagger, while an Impact proc with high damage output (like a Vulkar shot) can scale all the way up to a ragdoll, temporarily immobilizing them. In a similar manner, Puncture procs will now scale in effectiveness from 10% to 75% damage reduction, based on the damage dealt at the time of proc

And what does Puncture do as of 2020? Sure, it's now based on proc amount rather than proc weight, but please tell me again they "listened to feedback" :)

There's no such thing as "listening to feedback" when their initial intentions were set in stone and merely postponed until the outcry died out. It's insulting that they even tried a second time, with the exact same proposals. This is why I'm convinced there's an Overton window of things they are willing to change as long as they fall within their intended plans.

Just recently, there's the Holokey drop chance fiasco for reference. Not only did they decide not to at the very least add duplicate protection for sevatrash, but they decided not to retroactively give Holokeys for those who already completed their Sister farms. They pretty much punished early adopters and sent the message "Don't play our new content, we'll make you regret trying to be up-to-date".

It's best for people to give up on the notion of DE acting on player feedback that falls outside their intended plans. It's best to just take the game as it comes as dumb fun just so you don't sour the experience by feeling neglected and ignored as a player. Because ultimately, you are.

Edited by Jarriaga
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2 hours ago, iPathos said:

I won't be responding to many of the posts in the last 12h for a while, as it seems the majority either haven't read the whole thread and the clarifications made throughout, or they are completely missing the point while making assumptions. I've clarified on my initial points at the bottom of the OP and also changed the topic name to something a little more accurate, hopefully that explains the reasoning and position a little better.

Least you could do is leave a message to each of them letting them know you've seen their comment.

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14 minutes ago, TomCruisesSon said:

Least you could do is leave a message to each of them letting them know you've seen their comment.

I have no obligation to do that, you or TyeGoo are entirely welcome to do it yourself. The fact I commented again will be enough for those who have followed the thread. (Let alone the fact my changing the thread title and additions to the OP pretty clearly show that I have read the posts.)

Edited by iPathos
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28 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

It's best for people to give up on the notion of DE acting on player feedback that falls outside their intended plans. It's best to just take the game as it comes as dumb fun just so you don't sour the experience by feeling neglected and ignored as a player. Because ultimately, you are.

It a game, not a country where each person gets a vote.

We are players, not shareholders.

Why would you think any game company would work any differently?

It's not game design by committee, it's game design by DE.

Listening does not even imply following or agreeing.

If you want to play games over burdened with this false sense of being a shareholder, that's nice, but it's not and has never been close to reality.

Game creation is simply not a SJW to be won by the players that think they know better.

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12 minutes ago, iPathos said:
25 minutes ago, TomCruisesSon said:

Least you could do is leave a message to each of them letting them know you've seen their comment.

I have no obligation to do that,

This is it.  The thread has come full circle.  This is a satisfactory conclusion, the thread is over.

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