Jump to content

DE, more communication would be greatly appreciated


iPathos
 Share

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, iPathos said:

This is also why within that same mentioned bug thread I suggest trying to translate the knockdown effect from Arcane Eruption over to Amalgam Furax Body Count - it's a non-damaging, non-status-causing (as far as I'm aware, outside knockdown itself) effect that does exactly "what it says on the tin" just with a different activation condition.

Or electricity proc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, (PSN)Unstar said:

This is it.  The thread has come full circle.  This is a satisfactory conclusion, the thread is over.

 

2 hours ago, iPathos said:

I won't be responding to many of the posts in the last 12h for a while, as it seems the majority either haven't read the whole thread and the clarifications made throughout, or they are completely missing the point while making assumptions. I've clarified on my initial points at the bottom of the OP and also changed the topic name to something a little more accurate, hopefully that explains the reasoning and position a little better.

Read the response first, then weigh in with your PoV. I will respond in full when I have both time and the clarity of mind to do so.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Le 15/09/2021 à 04:50, iPathos a dit :

Right, I'm pushed to doing this because I am sick to death of DE either ignoring entirely, or refusing to respond, expand on, detail, acknowledge, or in any way interact with the community outside of their own very limited stream response. Sure, they have a lot of "community streams" happening, but the actual responses given to any real concerns during those is little to none on  a good day. I'm tired, I'm annoyed, I'm frustrated and I'm entirely sure they can do better. This has nothing to do with company acquisition behind the scenes - that happens with any game studio. This is longer-standing than that.

You used to be known as the devs who stood out because of how much you listened to the players, how much you really considered their input into your game and their feedback around not just what went in, but also what was an idea.

I understand that COVID-19 has been a barrier in many more ways than one, but this started before that even came onto the scene - it's only gotten that much worse since it did. I love Warframe, if I didn't I wouldn't have spent 4500+ hours in-mission and well over 12000 hours in total otherwise. If I didn't, I wouldn't have applied for the Guide of the Lotus position when it was known that you needed someone from the Oceanic region. I don't regret my input and time dedication because of that, but it does it make me question your own choices as we stand here.

 

The fact you even have bug report forums with a proper format is a huge boon, some of us have spent years asking you to fix those bugs with that exact format ad-infinitum. But here we are, with the bugs still in the game and with (in almost every case) no response. Please, both now and when you can act properly without having to worry about quarantine or social distancing, try to go back to why we loved you as developers in the first place. It's a sad story to even try to look at things as they are, it honestly depresses me and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Also, as an aside; the Warframe Community Discord has never lost love for the game. We want to try contribute how we can to the community as a whole and to try to improve the game as best we see. Please, please, PLEASE; respond to people. It is not a good look and it makes us ever more frustrated as we await acknowledgement while reporting things that to many are very obvious.

As a few examples;

  • Voidrig's helmet spinning incorrectly with any other helmet than its default
  • Amalgam Furax Body Count behaving incorrectly because of the changes made with "Melee 3.0"
  • Many multiples of out-of-bounds areas being issues even though said areas are not out of bounds (such as several doors in the new corpus gas city tileset - they reset you for no reason with no preamble)
  • The current issue with Pathocyst dealing half of the damage it should when using Heavy Attacks.
  • Nidus Prime not counting for Invigorations (I am aware this may have been fixed with today's hotfix, I do not have Nidus Prime so I cannot confirm this from my own experience even so. The point is that it was still broken even after the first "fix".)
  • Merulina simply not allowing movement through multiple tilesets because of vertical issues where you "bonk your head", let alone the fact it should be moddable.
  • Expanded buff icons (only specific ones) for no reason
  • The issue with Buzlok and the Tenet Diplos's homing shots being almost incapable of hitting some enemies because they orbit endlessly til they time out.

There is a plethora of things that need to be acknowledged, if not at the very least told "Yes we're fixing it".
Talk to us. Let us know. Be the devs that let us fall in love with your creation, because as of late it just makes many of us angry about what you've become.

 

Edit: It seems I wasn't clear enough in my wording here - something I've attempted to clarify in later posts and in topic title changes. It's more communication from the team that I'm asking for here. I'm not asking for every bug report and every suggestion to be answered, be it in short or in detailed form; just...more than what we see as things stand. If that's not doable, please let us know. If there's no way to streamline the bug reporting process (like the later mentions of similar systems to the Minecraft Bug Tracker or Reddit Flair to make categorization or understanding simpler), then I may just have to live with the fact.

For those saying the mention of the Community Discord doesn't matter or that they don't care - that's fine, that's your opinion. I mention it because of the level of immersion in the discontent of players that is experienced there often. It's important to give my perspective on the matter because it gives context as to the reasoning. I have also never claimed to know anything about game design/development, let alone being any kind of expert on the matter; I say these things as I see them and as I am told of them.

Please ensure you check the whole thread before responding further, as without that you are only getting an incomplete picture of what I'm trying to get across here.

Well, they have a trello board, but it seems that they can't even keep that up to date
It was a step in the right direction tho, too bad.
Here's the link, in case you don't know about it https://trello.com/b/jKHMPANy/all-platforms-sisters-of-parvos-bug-feedback-tracking
Yeah, they stopped touching it after the Sister Of Parvos update, but they did everything you wanted to see in your post, it lasted 2 months.

Edited by Maryph
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

il y a 2 minutes, (XBOX)TyeGoo a dit :

"It was a step in the right direction though, too bad" is basically the entire motto of Warframe these days 😂😂😂 

It's bedtime for me but thanks for the smile! :) 

Yeah right, let's hope it's just because they're fully committed on delivering New War in time and not because of other things :p
Gn !

Edited by Maryph
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2021-09-15 at 3:50 AM, iPathos said:

I understand that COVID-19 has been a barrier in many more ways than one, but this started before that even came onto the scene - it's only gotten that much worse since it did. I love Warframe, if I didn't I wouldn't have spent 4500+ hours in-mission and well over 12000 hours in total otherwise. If I didn't, I wouldn't have applied for the Guide of the Lotus position when it was known that you needed someone from the Oceanic region. I don't regret my input and time dedication because of that, but it does it make me question your own choices as we stand here.

Lol this isn't about covid. It has been this way for ages.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Something it seems most of the people responding here are missing is that the lack of catering to specific feedback is a secondary problem at best. I have said this multiple times in this thread and tried to even reiterate it as best I can within the OP through an edit; the lack of clarity or communication around bugs is my main concern. They've garnered over 5600 pages of bugs in the PC section alone over the years, who knows just how many of them never got answered or had to wait years for a fix to just drop out of the blue.

Now, as for the individual replies...

16 hours ago, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

I’m so tired of explaining this to every dude in every gaming community.

 

You are one person. Even if we got someone else the exact same age, height, weight, ethnicity etc of you, they would have a different opinion than you. If we rounded up 1000 people exactly like you, we would have 1000 different opinions.

 

So, how does DE, who are 250 people, respond to the feedback of millions of players? Tens of thousands a day? Like, logistically, how would they do that?

More over, why would they do that? Half the warframe accounts in existence belong to players without any design experience, probably without even finishing Highshcool.

DE are professional game designers, for the large part they don’t need to hear what the Everyman has to say about their game, and they care a lot more than any other developer anyway.

DE can’t make the warframe that you want because that’s the warframe someone else doesn’t want.

and tbh, THANK GOD, because for years people have been sulking about how both Saryn, Mesa, Bramma etc all need to be nerfed/ removed/ deleted. If DE was beholden to listening to all feedback, two of my mains wouldn’t exist at all.

I am aware of the perception here, please ensure you understand exactly what I'm suggesting as I feel like it will modify how you approach this.

10 hours ago, CrimsonXX said:

Yeah, got no cares one way or another about "community discord" or whatever; also its not about a "mindset" but literally paying attention to the updates that have been put out at any given time. Kuva Liches? Popped out after whining about no endgame/challenge and regardless of how they turned out were an early attempt at, at least going towards that; same with Railjack which in its original version was clearly aimed towards endgame people. Even tapping into the "content drought" idiocy, when DE tried to quickly get that content out. Even with the RJ aspect the "multiple combating voices" is shown in some wanting the original version, while those like me vastly prefer the current iteration; 2 sets of voices to be heard.

Oh I can assure there's plenty entitlement involved in this. When you whine and accuse a dev of not specifically listening to YOU, its entitlement as you're expecting the game to cater to YOU. That you're owed the bigger spotlight over everyone else. Not to mention the ignoring of various bts things that make what you're whining about a complex issue, because YOU don't care about that part only what YOU want.

"Fix the bugs!" -you

"Um to fix x,y, and z bugs it means having a cascade of these 10 other bugs also we have this other major thing taking up most of the focus currently"-programmer

"Don't care fix x,y, and z bugs, also do it by next week!" -you

-doesn't happen and instead there's a plethora of other things done that go towards other asks-

"omg DE doesn't listen!" -you

I've sat through YEARS of bugs in various mmo's and let the company behind them handle them, company's FAR more guilty of "not listening" than DE. Also you seem to miss the concept of your "fix the bugs" being against other's "give new content" or other's "give endgame content" or any number of other things. Not to mention the non-community New War that is what DE themselves are focused on in essence being their own voice in the mix. I'd wager the other "voices" in those camps would be just as "on their soapbox" as you are over their wants.

Disagree or don't, I really couldn't care less. I'll just continue to sigh at the current generation of mmo/online gamers that are filled with entitlement and "soapbox yelling".

Newsflash: Not YOUR game, its DE's game. They decide what should be focused on at any given time and ngl I will take them working on New War to get it out over bug fixes as a priority. Also once again what YOU want isn't reflective of what others want, everyone has their own thing to shout about; DE is stuck trying to bend a thousand different directions to try to address all they can. Its most definitely not a sign/showing that "DE doesn't listen".

Opinions aren't untouchable things. You put yours out into the public, thus making it fully open to being torn into/called out/pushed back on. Especially in my case as someone who's been online gaming for over 10 years or so now with various companies and their games.

Read the edit on the OP and you'll notice the reason I even mention the Discord is because it gives context to my perspective. I am well aware it's not "MY game"; they are the ones asking for bug reports and feedback, we aren't just piling it on them willy nilly. As stated further down in the post, the whole reason I mentioned those specific bugs is because they were the first to come to mind.

10 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

The bug fix section of an update is my least cared about section. I don't even read it. Thank you DE for prioritizing the way you do. 

Good for you, you're not one of the devs so I guess it makes little difference? Why ask us to report these things (and secondarily give feedback on others) if what we put in ends up producing little to no results?

9 hours ago, quxier said:

That's not exactly true. If you consider e.g. "how hot you like your (Pro)tea". /joke/ Then if you ask 100 people everyone could answer with different answer. However answers may be not very different. For example one may answer 80.1C and another person 80.2C. You could probably group temperatures per one Celsius degree (e.g. 80, 81, 88 etc). Taking range from 80C to 90C you would have only 10 groups.

Sometimes, indeed, you have many different suggestion/opinion on given topic.

 

Some parts of suggestions are almost 1 way to solve (e.g. fix Amalgam furax that won't proc stuns - just put stuns).

Look at Holo topic. I bet you would find some people that don't need changes because they were lucky. Probably lot of people would like guaranteed drop. Both of those group would be fine if a mission gives you at least 1 guaranteed drop. I bet you would find few people that are against guaranteed drop but I guess some of them are ill informed (they may think that just because they were lucky everyone are). That would be majority of that topic. That's around 750 post (30 pages per 25 post per page afair) that complains about not gaining Holos at all not about quantity of drops. What they have done? They increased drops from normal mission - that doesn't change too much. They made Sister drops one Holo per sister - that's good "addition" if you are doing but lots of people have already done it OR they don't want Sisters or Sister's weapons (e.g. me). That's not listening to pretty much single opinion with very easy fix (there were more complex solution).

I've said it countless times already, I didn't clarify well enough in my initial post but have done since. Feedback and interaction around that is a secondary concern to the bug infestation of the game and lack of clarity around intent with them.

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Answering and acknowledging regarding bugs etc. would be highly pointless and that time would be spent better doing other things, like reading through more bug report threads and shipping it all off to those that fix it. The only time I'd like to see more communication and the devs possibly listening more would be when it comes to workshop threads. Planned changes are highly uninteresting to me if there isnt a chance that those planned changes may change based on feedback. In such a case they can just post a "we gonna change this in some way" then post the details in the patch notes instead.

The Yareli changes workshop was met with deaf ears, more or less the same deal with Holokeys and prior to that DEimos arcanes.

But expecting acknowledgements, communcation, answers regarding the most trivial of bugs and changes is just silly and entitled imo. 

Your entire first sentence is a contradiction of itself, as said lower in this post I would be plenty happy with a visible flair system to help with categorization - without needing to increase "actual interaction" from the team between them and us.

6 hours ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

You also have to realize that not all of your ideas are good or goes towards where they want their game to go. 

They listen a lot more than what you think but because you are only looking at things they aren't doing you think otherwise.

I've clarified my meaning both in the OP and throughout this thread, my original intent wasn't clearly explained but now it has been. Ignoring certain feedback is certainly a problem, but the lack of perceptible action around bugfixing is what both grinds my gears most and makes me think this way.

6 hours ago, (XBOX)Beowulf Tyr said:

DE definitely listens. Look what they did to Railjack - mostly regular warframe missions using the railjack as a Taxicab, cause many players complained it wasn't "warframe". 

I think it's more likely that it turned out this way for ease of introduction into the game, as well as ending up with a compromise between the ground missions and the RJ side of missions. Scarlet Spear "worked", although it was very clearly clunky at best.

6 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

 

If you're referring to the knockdown, this 'issue' has nothing to do with the melee changes and the mod is working normally, the text of the mod is simply incorrect. The mod triggers blast procs, it applies 6 stacks and you'll sometimes see 0 blast damage show up. For what ever reason DE decided to say "knockdown" instead. At the time, blast did trigger knockdowns, however, DE changed blast at some point due to people complaining about it being a negative for "guns", similar reason for slight impact changes.

Otherwise, discussing the community as if there's only one perspective is meaningless. DE does listen to people, they just aren't people that share your view points.

Even you mentioning the Ghoulsaw issue is an example of this. Some people did complain the stance had poor multipliers, there's even a thread about it in the feedback section and how even garbage swords outperform it.

I'm not even sure why you're acting like this wasn't always the case, if you felt like DE was "listening to the community" in the past, it's only because DE took feedback from people you happen to agree with at the time, or DE was coincidentally designing the game in a way you wanted at the time. I've played since the Steam release, and never felt like DE behaved any different compared to other developers that communicated as much as they were.

 

5 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

I think it's dishonest that you are framing "DE doesn't tell me they're fixing the bugs I care about" and "DE doesn't implement the features I want" as "DE doesn't care about the game".  You are not the game.

But beyond the framing, let's get to the meat of the issue...


TL;DR - Not all bugs in games get fixed, because not all bugs are created equal.  Any time spent fixing a bug could be spent creating content or addressing other bugs, and that trade-off has to be measured.  It would be incredibly foolish to tell someone you're fixing a bug, because it's entirely possible that it won't be possible to fix in a cost-effective way, meaning you would have just given them false hope which will lead to more frustration.


Detailed version:

Your post suggests that you don't understand video game development.  Which is fine, most people don't, because most people don't do video game development.  So I'll try to fill in the relevant informational gap in the paragraphs to come.

Fixing a bug involves a few stages.  First, you have to be able to reproduce the bug.  If the bug doesn't consistently happen for all users, this might be a challenge.

Once you can reproduce the bug, you have to find the part of the code that is making it happen.  This is often the trickiest part.  The larger and more intersecting your code is, the longer it can take to pinpoint where it's happening.  If you're a programmer, you probably have a pretty good idea of how long it would take to make a new feature.  You can put an estimate on that.  However, for finding a bug, the estimate is usually "I'll know once I've found it".

Finally, you have to fix it.  For some bugs this is trivial after you find the offending code, but sometimes it can be very tricky.  For example, sometimes the bug is a side-effect of code that otherwise works, and fixing the bug requires rewriting a significant amount of other code.  Now you're not "just" fixing a bug, but replacing an existing working system.  You often risk adding new bugs by doing something like this.  In some cases, even if you locate the bug, the cost of correcting it may be more than the team thinks it can afford.

Also, the "size" of the bug doesn't have much to do with how easy it is to fix; that just determines how important it is to fix.  A bug that crashes the game might be easy to find and fix, while a bug that affects just one weapon or one UI marker might take years.  That's why when bugs are found, they are typically assigned a number that represents how important they are to fix.  The P1 bugs will always be fixed first, followed by the P2 bugs, etc.  And since new bugs are found all the time and resources are limited, unfortunately that often means that P5 bugs can linger for a long time, and some may never be fixed.

So what does this mean for a player?  Quite simply, it means that the bugs you care about may never be fixed.  And while that's certainly a bummer, it's for the best.  If your bug wasn't fixed, it means that DE determined that at this point, fixing that bug isn't worth the time it would take away from fixing other bugs or creating new content.

In short, while it's a bummer that your Necramech's head spins if you give it different hats, it would be more of a bummer if the New War was delayed or a more impactful bug wasn't addressed.

And that being the case, it's best practice for DE to not tell you they are looking at a bug.  Telling players that a bug is being looked is guaranteed to lead to frustration when those bugs that were "looked at" weren't ever fixed because they were too time-consuming or too low priority. 

If you put a bug in the bug report forum, just trust that they have seen it and that it's logged somewhere, and that they'll get around to fixing it when they can, which may be never.  You'll know your bug is fixed when you see it in the patch notes, and that's the limit of what DE's communication should be about the issue.

 

It's really not "they aren't fixing the bugs I care about", as said further down in this post I mentioned those bugs because they were simply the first ones to come to mind. I am aware of at least the general process and/or steps taken for debugging, though I definitely am not well-enough versed in the totality of the BTS systems. The problem I have most of all around DE's bug reports forum and its operation is the lack of clarity on the bugs that do have all the relevant information, or are only missing potentially a couple of small tidbits. As stated in earlier posts, a moderator/CM/developer-assigned flair similar to those used on Reddit would be more than sufficient for letting players know the status of things. Examples being flairs that indicate "Not enough information", "Unable to Reproduce", "Understood and reproduceable" and the like. I'm not asking them to go sifting through every single report every single day, nor anything of that extreme nature. As for your final words there, the whole point of the Trello board was to inform us of that logging. Even if the bugs sit on there for a while, it shows they do know, and it is logged. Based on the overall lifetime of so many of the bugs within even just the PC Bugs forum I cannot rightly assume that "they've seen it and that it's logged somewhere". I do appreciate that you took the time to enlighten me on certain aspects here though, as well as recognizing that it's the bug side of things I am most concerned with.

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

As said elsewhere, they already listen. They cant listen to everyone, and they shouldnt. They've listened plenty regarding railjack (and how exactly is it bugged?), liches, newer frames (Yareli being an exception) and the people that want more story driven content. Parts of the changes I've been happy with, other parts not so much, but not everything can aim to please me, and the same goes for you and everyone else that is part of the playerbase.

I'm also not sure what games you refer to that have died. I guess many is easy to claim without providing any actual examples. And there hasnt been any massive drop off in WF this year. It has had the same up and down numbers for the last 3 years or so, which are also healthy numbers.

DE is probably one of few companies that actually listen to their playerbase and provide decent amounts of concrete info on upcoming changes and so on. DE's main boo-boo is that they used to hype things too much long ahead of release time. And they've corrected that pretty much, which is good.

In the end you and others need to realize and accept that you are part of millions of players, so chances that your wishes wont be granted are quite big, since someone else might have a better idea or bring something to attention of higher priority. Deal with it like the rest of us have in WF and several other live service games over the years.

Few non-triple-A games have as many options to simply vary your gameplay as Warframe does, they tend to die because it's not financially viable to simply continue their working (Wildstar comes to mind). Warframe clearly doesn't have that problem with gaining new players, retention is a larger concern imo. I'm not asking for those specific bugs listed to be addressed, nor do I expect them to fix them solely because I've made this thread and mention them in hotfix threads - I mention those bugs because they're the very first ones that come to mind and I continually try to remind them of these bugs because there isn't enough clarity around what action they're taking or not taking to rectify them.

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

I think I'm going to re-post this previous response to a similar thread made last year as it is still very relevant today:

The reality is that DE publicly say they listen to feedback, but privately, they have an Overton window of feedback they are actually willing to act upon.

This was made crystal-clear last year with the status proc revisions considering the improved procs mirrored their late 2017 plans with damage 2.5 exactly as initially presented despite the rejection and backlash. That convinced me that it's not just that they're stubborn, but that their plans are set in stone and that they rarely (If ever) consider feedback that falls outside their initial intended plans.

Sure, they didn't make those changes in 2017, but they tried again in 2020. Here are the original Damage 2.5 plans from 2017:

And what does Puncture do as of 2020? Sure, it's now based on proc amount rather than proc weight, but please tell me again they "listened to feedback" :)

There's no such thing as "listening to feedback" when their initial intentions were set in stone and merely postponed until the outcry died out. It's insulting that they even tried a second time, with the exact same proposals. This is why I'm convinced there's an Overton window of things they are willing to change as long as they fall within their intended plans.

Just recently, there's the Holokey drop chance fiasco for reference. Not only did they decide not to at the very least add duplicate protection for sevatrash, but they decided not to retroactively give Holokeys for those who already completed their Sister farms. They pretty much punished early adopters and sent the message "Don't play our new content, we'll make you regret trying to be up-to-date".

It's best for people to give up on the notion of DE acting on player feedback that falls outside their intended plans. It's best to just take the game as it comes as dumb fun just so you don't sour the experience by feeling neglected and ignored as a player. Because ultimately, you are.

As specified a few times now, my primary concern is around the bug reports and perceived lack of action around them. This is why I would love to offer suggestions on how to  potentially streamline the process - if not make it appear more interactive or informative than the current approach.

42 minutes ago, TomCruisesSon said:

Least you could do is leave a message to each of them letting them know you've seen their comment.

Here you go, enjoy.

28 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

It a game, not a country where each person gets a vote.

We are players, not shareholders.

Why would you think any game company would work any differently?

It's not game design by committee, it's game design by DE.

Listening does not even imply following or agreeing.

If you want to play games over burdened with this false sense of being a shareholder, that's nice, but it's not and has never been close to reality.

Game creation is simply not a SJW to be won by the players that think they know better.

Imagine asking the players for feedback and then not considering or explaining the failure to even acknowledge that feedback, or ignoring the input from the group of users called the "Design Council". However, my main concern here is bugs, the reports around those and the lack of clarity/updates around them. This is why over the last few pages I've spent considerable time either agreeing with or offering different suggestions that could potentially streamline the entire process. The fact that the Trello board remains rarely updated (even starting around the Railjack Rework) is a sad state to see things in, because as @Maryph so rightly stated it's a shame that it hasn't properly been continued - it really was a step in the right direction.

16 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

This is it.  The thread has come full circle.  This is a satisfactory conclusion, the thread is over.

The response was given because I am currently at work and time zones are a thing. Unlike the developers, my job is not this game so I have to prioritize that before I even begin to consider things said here. The fact you even came back with that despite the title change, clarification at the bottom of the OP and all exchanges since your last post just go to show you either haven't bothered to read the info in those posts, or you don't care about this as an issue/disagree with my PoV. The entire reason this post was made in the first place was to highlight issues that I have been constantly reminded of within and without the community for years now - it is something that has only gotten worse with time.

2 minutes ago, asianguy262001 said:

Lol this isn't about covid. It has been this way even before the rahetalius incident 

That is simply me acknowledging that it has had an impact on the development process on the whole.

  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have no doubt that DE are doing their best; it's just that sometimes their best isn't really good enough.

they certainly could communicate better, no doubt about that, but a lot of people only want them to say the things they want to hear. if you ask them to communicate more, and they spit out news of Delays, cancellations, content you don't want etc, then would you be happy? would you appreciate that they communicated that to you, or would you be too livid that something is delayed or cancelled to care? most people I think would fall into the latter, and that's why bad news is often swept under the rug or forgotten about entirely, even when it's things players really ought to know, such as when we were told New War was delayed. 

everybody wants to hear DE, and we want them to hear us, but not everybody will like the things they have to say, and they will not always like the things that we have to say about them sometimes; such is the downside of communication.

 

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

I'm going to quote you on this if I ever see you complaining about any anti-player decision made by DE.

Feel free!
I dislike several things DE does as a company, but I still enjoy what they produce and have no need to complain when they are providing me entertainment.

None of that means I think I have the right or the desire to have them pat me on the head every time I send an idea or make a suggestion.

I hate the chat moderation, for example, I hate that Ignore in this game is only for chat and does not prevent grouping. I think both are anti-player.

My outlook on the matter remains the same.

Trying to SJW game companies with mob rule on game forums remains as ineffective in actually changing anything than it ever has, but it's still a hot topic on most General Forums for SaaS games.

1 hour ago, iPathos said:

Imagine asking the players for feedback and then not considering or explaining the failure to even acknowledge that feedback, or ignoring the input from the group of users called the "Design Council". However, my main concern here is bugs, the reports around those and the lack of clarity/updates around them. This is why over the last few pages I've spent considerable time either agreeing with or offering different suggestions that could potentially streamline the entire process. The fact that the Trello board remains rarely updated (even starting around the Railjack Rework) is a sad state to see things in, because as @Maryph so rightly stated it's a shame that it hasn't properly been continued - it really was a step in the right direction.

Imagine thinking that you have to act like it's parent and tell the company how to run it's business.

Imagine thinking that the PR of any corporate mouthpiece means anything other than 'please buy our stuff' and that feedback meant to be responded to as personally validating.

They asked for feedback,

They got feedback.

End of transaction.

When they ask for feedback do they ever say they will validate it?

Just because some people want them to validate, does not mean there is any onus on DE to do that, this all sounds like attempts at parenting DE through guilt over not doing something never promised, from my point of view.

You spend you time however you like, personally, I don't work for free, if they want my ideas, they can pay me.

My role here is to enjoy the product and laugh about the fickle gods making things difficult for my avatar - the things people call bugs in games, I simply see as the fickle gods - and here, there is so much rampant void magic, why would anyone expect things in this in game universe to be stable?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, iPathos said:

Read the edit on the OP and you'll notice the reason I even mention the Discord is because it gives context to my perspective. I am well aware it's not "MY game"; they are the ones asking for bug reports and feedback, we aren't just piling it on them willy nilly. As stated further down in the post, the whole reason I mentioned those specific bugs is because they were the first to come to mind.

 

Read it and still doesn't shift my caring about the Discord or not. From the gist of it you want the devs to develop some kind of tracker for bugs, which is baffling to me cause what does that serve. You aren't a dev that'd need that to fix the bugs that'd be tracked, the only thing it does is provide another thing for certain people to whine about cause to them there's no progress being made on whatever it is that they focus on. DE isn't going to nor should have to make a post in every bug report thread to say "we're aware and working on this" x whatever the user count is on this site. To use your own number 5600 times popping in to say that exact phrase to assuage the OCD seeming types that care about that sort of thing.

Quote

Good for you, you're not one of the devs so I guess it makes little difference? Why ask us to report these things (and secondarily give feedback on others) if what we put in ends up producing little to no results?

They ask us to report the things to look into them and fix them, not to have to make updates on them at x-times. They don't need to make "acknowledgement" posts in order to acknowledge and work on bugs or listen to feedback. Also "producing little to no results", you do realize this can boil down to either the issue being a difficult thing to fix thus taking time, could slip under the radar for anyone caring about whatever bug, or could in the bigger scope of things not be a huge thing to work on (like a hypothetical orange that was glitching in a particular open world area that no one pays attention to except for that one person that does, bigger scope that doesn't affect anything). If there were no results then hotfixes & update notes wouldn't have nearly the amount of fixes in them.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok real life scenario.

DE say they are releasing something new, (Deimos arcanes or whatever.)

2 hours ago, Zimzala said:

They asked for feedback,

Players read what they intend to release and say "no this is really bad, no one will use it."

Undeterred DE do a rare unvaulting of the test servers and surprise the verdict is pretty bad with big changes needed. 

2 hours ago, Zimzala said:

They got feedback.

They release the new content unchanged.

2 hours ago, Zimzala said:

End of transaction.

Not quite the end, DE proceeds to act surprised when no one likes or plays the new content.

To get to the crux of the issue they create a Feedback Megathread.

 

2 hours ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

they certainly could communicate better, no doubt about that, but a lot of people only want them to say the things they want to hear. if you ask them to communicate more, and they spit out news of Delays, cancellations, content you don't want etc, then would you be happy? would you appreciate that they communicated that to you, or would you be too livid that something is delayed or cancelled to care? most people I think would fall into the latter, and that's why bad news is often swept under the rug or forgotten about entirely, even when it's things players really ought to know, such as when we were told New War was delayed.

Communication is always important even if it's not what people want to hear.

If something (say new war 2021 version) is delayed, it's not for lacking of trying on DE's part. Personally I assume (you know what they say about assumptions) that they are working hard to get content out and if there are issues with it a heads up is nice.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, iPathos said:

Something it seems most of the people responding here are missing is that the lack of catering to specific feedback is a secondary problem at best. I have said this multiple times in this thread and tried to even reiterate it as best I can within the OP through an edit; the lack of clarity or communication around bugs is my main concern. They've garnered over 5600 pages of bugs in the PC section alone over the years, who knows just how many of them never got answered or had to wait years for a fix to just drop out of the blue.

Now, as for the individual replies...

I am aware of the perception here, please ensure you understand exactly what I'm suggesting as I feel like it will modify how you approach this.

Read the edit on the OP and you'll notice the reason I even mention the Discord is because it gives context to my perspective. I am well aware it's not "MY game"; they are the ones asking for bug reports and feedback, we aren't just piling it on them willy nilly. As stated further down in the post, the whole reason I mentioned those specific bugs is because they were the first to come to mind.

Good for you, you're not one of the devs so I guess it makes little difference? Why ask us to report these things (and secondarily give feedback on others) if what we put in ends up producing little to no results?

I've said it countless times already, I didn't clarify well enough in my initial post but have done since. Feedback and interaction around that is a secondary concern to the bug infestation of the game and lack of clarity around intent with them.

Your entire first sentence is a contradiction of itself, as said lower in this post I would be plenty happy with a visible flair system to help with categorization - without needing to increase "actual interaction" from the team between them and us.

I've clarified my meaning both in the OP and throughout this thread, my original intent wasn't clearly explained but now it has been. Ignoring certain feedback is certainly a problem, but the lack of perceptible action around bugfixing is what both grinds my gears most and makes me think this way.

I think it's more likely that it turned out this way for ease of introduction into the game, as well as ending up with a compromise between the ground missions and the RJ side of missions. Scarlet Spear "worked", although it was very clearly clunky at best.

 

It's really not "they aren't fixing the bugs I care about", as said further down in this post I mentioned those bugs because they were simply the first ones to come to mind. I am aware of at least the general process and/or steps taken for debugging, though I definitely am not well-enough versed in the totality of the BTS systems. The problem I have most of all around DE's bug reports forum and its operation is the lack of clarity on the bugs that do have all the relevant information, or are only missing potentially a couple of small tidbits. As stated in earlier posts, a moderator/CM/developer-assigned flair similar to those used on Reddit would be more than sufficient for letting players know the status of things. Examples being flairs that indicate "Not enough information", "Unable to Reproduce", "Understood and reproduceable" and the like. I'm not asking them to go sifting through every single report every single day, nor anything of that extreme nature. As for your final words there, the whole point of the Trello board was to inform us of that logging. Even if the bugs sit on there for a while, it shows they do know, and it is logged. Based on the overall lifetime of so many of the bugs within even just the PC Bugs forum I cannot rightly assume that "they've seen it and that it's logged somewhere". I do appreciate that you took the time to enlighten me on certain aspects here though, as well as recognizing that it's the bug side of things I am most concerned with.

Few non-triple-A games have as many options to simply vary your gameplay as Warframe does, they tend to die because it's not financially viable to simply continue their working (Wildstar comes to mind). Warframe clearly doesn't have that problem with gaining new players, retention is a larger concern imo. I'm not asking for those specific bugs listed to be addressed, nor do I expect them to fix them solely because I've made this thread and mention them in hotfix threads - I mention those bugs because they're the very first ones that come to mind and I continually try to remind them of these bugs because there isn't enough clarity around what action they're taking or not taking to rectify them.

As specified a few times now, my primary concern is around the bug reports and perceived lack of action around them. This is why I would love to offer suggestions on how to  potentially streamline the process - if not make it appear more interactive or informative than the current approach.

Here you go, enjoy.

Imagine asking the players for feedback and then not considering or explaining the failure to even acknowledge that feedback, or ignoring the input from the group of users called the "Design Council". However, my main concern here is bugs, the reports around those and the lack of clarity/updates around them. This is why over the last few pages I've spent considerable time either agreeing with or offering different suggestions that could potentially streamline the entire process. The fact that the Trello board remains rarely updated (even starting around the Railjack Rework) is a sad state to see things in, because as @Maryph so rightly stated it's a shame that it hasn't properly been continued - it really was a step in the right direction.

The response was given because I am currently at work and time zones are a thing. Unlike the developers, my job is not this game so I have to prioritize that before I even begin to consider things said here. The fact you even came back with that despite the title change, clarification at the bottom of the OP and all exchanges since your last post just go to show you either haven't bothered to read the info in those posts, or you don't care about this as an issue/disagree with my PoV. The entire reason this post was made in the first place was to highlight issues that I have been constantly reminded of within and without the community for years now - it is something that has only gotten worse with time.

That is simply me acknowledging that it has had an impact on the development process on the whole.

What a slimy and underhanded way to dodge someone that had you completely pinned.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, L3512 said:

Ok real life scenario.

DE say they are releasing something new, (Deimos arcanes or whatever.)

Players read what they intend to release and say "no this is really bad, no one will use it."

Undeterred DE do a rare unvaulting of the test servers and surprise the verdict is pretty bad with big changes needed. 

They release the new content unchanged.

Not quite the end, DE proceeds to act surprised when no one likes or plays the new content.

To get to the crux of the issue they create a Feedback Megathread.

 

Communication is always important even if it's not what people want to hear.

If something (say new war 2021 version) is delayed, it's not for lacking of trying on DE's part. Personally I assume (you know what they say about assumptions) that they are working hard to get content out and if there are issues with it a heads up is nice.

I appreciate the breakdown you composed in response to that, it's a very clear way to illustrate exactly the problem I want to highlight with feedback (though again for those reading, feedback is my secondary issue after bug report clarity).

Also just to point out to you @CrimsonXX, one main reason I continue to reference the Minecraft Bug Tracker is because of the transparency and clarity around it for the players. It's not there for them to contribute to fixing the bugs directly (though for those skilled in Java, it wouldn't be a first for them to offer a relevant and suitable solution) but it allows the information given by countless players in countless situations to be compiled and referenced under one umbrella. On the end with less change, it would likely call for more thread merging on the forums and either manual or bot-performed addition (or updates) to the Trello board (which you seem to have forgotten already exists and is a perfect platform for them to utilize for both the players and their benefit). On the other end, sure - a whole bug tracker. I don't expect either, but suggesting it can seed an idea that can lead to progress. Not saying anything is entirely your choice, I choose to be vocal about this.

I'm not asking DE to implement their own version of that, because the resources required to do so would likely outweigh the benefit (at least in the short term). You say you read my responses, but you gloss over the fact that situations (like what L3512 specified above) centered around not integrating player feedback or bug reporting have happened, they do happen and it's been the general trend for a huge amount of the input within the public test clusters from what I hear.

All I would like to see is a little more communication as a bare minimum, with the implementation of the above as a great alternative should they see the value in it. As always you're entitled to your opinion about both the current state of things and the implied necessity of what I and others suggest - that doesn't mean I'm going to stop putting my word in. You call it entitlement when it's specifically requested from the players, considering it "my vision for the game" or what-have-you; I'm literally just doing what they have already requested we do for years now, just in terms you (and some others) do not agree with. Don't forget the initial statement I've made both around why I made the thread and the clarification made at the bottom of the OP (because based on your response you seem not to fully grasp the context in its entirety), I do this because I am passionate about the game, the community and I see a lot of the discontent daily.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2021-09-15 at 10:50 AM, iPathos said:

Right, I'm pushed to doing this because I am sick to death of DE either ignoring entirely, or refusing to respond, expand on, detail, acknowledge, or in any way interact with the community outside of their own very limited stream response. Sure, they have a lot of "community streams" happening, but the actual responses given to any real concerns during those is little to none on  a good day. I'm tired, I'm annoyed, I'm frustrated and I'm entirely sure they can do better. This has nothing to do with company acquisition behind the scenes - that happens with any game studio. This is longer-standing than that.

You used to be known as the devs who stood out because of how much you listened to the players, how much you really considered their input into your game and their feedback around not just what went in, but also what was an idea.

I understand that COVID-19 has been a barrier in many more ways than one, but this started before that even came onto the scene - it's only gotten that much worse since it did. I love Warframe, if I didn't I wouldn't have spent 4500+ hours in-mission and well over 12000 hours in total otherwise. If I didn't, I wouldn't have applied for the Guide of the Lotus position when it was known that you needed someone from the Oceanic region. I don't regret my input and time dedication because of that, but it does it make me question your own choices as we stand here.

 

The fact you even have bug report forums with a proper format is a huge boon, some of us have spent years asking you to fix those bugs with that exact format ad-infinitum. But here we are, with the bugs still in the game and with (in almost every case) no response. Please, both now and when you can act properly without having to worry about quarantine or social distancing, try to go back to why we loved you as developers in the first place. It's a sad story to even try to look at things as they are, it honestly depresses me and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Also, as an aside; the Warframe Community Discord has never lost love for the game. We want to try contribute how we can to the community as a whole and to try to improve the game as best we see. Please, please, PLEASE; respond to people. It is not a good look and it makes us ever more frustrated as we await acknowledgement while reporting things that to many are very obvious.

As a few examples;

  • Voidrig's helmet spinning incorrectly with any other helmet than its default
  • Amalgam Furax Body Count behaving incorrectly because of the changes made with "Melee 3.0"
  • Many multiples of out-of-bounds areas being issues even though said areas are not out of bounds (such as several doors in the new corpus gas city tileset - they reset you for no reason with no preamble)
  • The current issue with Pathocyst dealing half of the damage it should when using Heavy Attacks.
  • Nidus Prime not counting for Invigorations (I am aware this may have been fixed with today's hotfix, I do not have Nidus Prime so I cannot confirm this from my own experience even so. The point is that it was still broken even after the first "fix".)
  • Merulina simply not allowing movement through multiple tilesets because of vertical issues where you "bonk your head", let alone the fact it should be moddable.
  • Expanded buff icons (only specific ones) for no reason
  • The issue with Buzlok and the Tenet Diplos's homing shots being almost incapable of hitting some enemies because they orbit endlessly til they time out.

There is a plethora of things that need to be acknowledged, if not at the very least told "Yes we're fixing it".
Talk to us. Let us know. Be the devs that let us fall in love with your creation, because as of late it just makes many of us angry about what you've become.

 

Edit: It seems I wasn't clear enough in my wording here - something I've attempted to clarify in later posts and in topic title changes. It's more communication from the team that I'm asking for here. I'm not asking for every bug report and every suggestion to be answered, be it in short or in detailed form; just...more than what we see as things stand. If that's not doable, please let us know. If there's no way to streamline the bug reporting process (like the later mentions of similar systems to the Minecraft Bug Tracker or Reddit Flair to make categorization or understanding simpler), then I may just have to live with the fact.

For those saying the mention of the Community Discord doesn't matter or that they don't care - that's fine, that's your opinion. I mention it because of the level of immersion in the discontent of players that is experienced there often. It's important to give my perspective on the matter because it gives context as to the reasoning. I have also never claimed to know anything about game design/development, let alone being any kind of expert on the matter; I say these things as I see them and as I am told of them.

Please ensure you check the whole thread before responding further, as without that you are only getting an incomplete picture of what I'm trying to get across here.

Wait so, you want weekly Dev streams, instead of biweekly?

Okay how about, you go and get a handful of other developers. Let’s say, 4. Get 4 other developers to do a one hour stream every two weeks.

Then we can talk about DE doing more.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

En 15/9/2021 a las 23:06, _R_o_g_u_e_ dijo:

I’m so tired of explaining this to every dude in every gaming community.

 

You are one person. Even if we got someone else the exact same age, height, weight, ethnicity etc of you, they would have a different opinion than you. If we rounded up 1000 people exactly like you, we would have 1000 different opinions.

 

So, how does DE, who are 250 people, respond to the feedback of millions of players? Tens of thousands a day? Like, logistically, how would they do that?

More over, why would they do that? Half the warframe accounts in existence belong to players without any design experience, probably without even finishing Highshcool.

DE are professional game designers, for the large part they don’t need to hear what the Everyman has to say about their game, and they care a lot more than any other developer anyway.

DE can’t make the warframe that you want because that’s the warframe someone else doesn’t want.

and tbh, THANK GOD, because for years people have been sulking about how both Saryn, Mesa, Bramma etc all need to be nerfed/ removed/ deleted. If DE was beholden to listening to all feedback, two of my mains wouldn’t exist at all.

Well actually, it doesn't make sense to me to praise DE just for fixing bugs, it's a natural part of the game.

Already at this point [DE] is a large enough company to take on these logical responsibilities.

Asking [DE] to fix the bugs in his own game or to improve its quality of life is not a whim of the players, it is what the game needs in order for it to work well and to have good quality content.

I can understand that players like you make tons of excuses like "But the Covid ...", "But they are just a little company and they don't have time to answer everything." I understand that up to a point, but that doesn't take away from the tangible result.

The product has several bugs, a lot of inconsistencies in the gameplay, a lot of imbalance (I mean a LOT of imbalance) and a lot of things like that.

The problem here and what makes me furious is that they ASK the players to help with these issues, but they are not able to understand their own game. Many players give feedback with very well made arguments and based on literally thousands of hours of play, they write a whole PRECIOUS document and perfectly understandable for anyone who plays the game. All that so that the developers themselves simply ignore it in the end. (Because yes lol)

Honestly, I don't see any sense in it, it costs nothing to go in for a while and look at the forums for a while to realize that there are bugs that are super important to fix (for example), since, for example, they directly affect a Warframe and therefore the gameplay of the game.

In my personal case, I use Limbo a lot and from a little before the Deimoss update, it got various bugs that affected a VERY IMPORTANT mechanic of its passive (that of regenerating energy). Do you know how long it took to fix it? 5 months. 5 Months to fix a basic Warframe mechanic.Does that make sense to you? And that I am not an isolated case, around there I also seemed to see a case of a bug that happened to Garuda's Claws (apparently certain mods did not work for the poor thing) and it took almost the same time to fix it (almost 5 months). And I'm sure if I start asking people around the forum, they would pass me links to a lot of bugs that affect a LOT of Warframe gameplay and that have not been fixed or that took months to fix.

The difference is that they don't get paid to do that, but they do it because they love the game and would love to see the bugs fixed soon so they can enjoy it as it should be. On the other hand there are the so-called "in charge" of this aspect of the community who are not even able to write "Soon it will be fixed"

In all those months, I would have paid [DE] personally to just tell me "Hey AJAL, we're seeing the problem, thanks for your report. We'll try to fix it soon." But nothing, they just kept silent for several months until they finally agreed that they have other Warframes apart from the populars or the new ones they are taking out, and they fixed those Warframes that were ignored for months (or years...).

What does it cost to simply write "We are seeing it", "We will be fixing it soon". It costs nothing. If it cost something, better pay me once because I just wrote it myself in less than 3 seconds :v

Let's say they really don't have enough budget to put a special team on the forums to read the bugs. MINIMUM, they should attend and know how to identify SO SERIOUS BUGS that affect the gameplay of the Warframe. It is that it is the most basic of a video game design. It is like for example, in a Mario Bros game, Luigi could not jump correctly and that Nintendo does not fix that bug in months or years simply because it is not the most popular and because Luigi is old content.

The only thing that makes me denote this whole situation is that DE has a terrible organization in his company, more for this type of thing and even though it really seems that they are trying, they are not succeeding as they would like.

And well, I guess I went around the bush a bit, but the issue of bugs in the Forums is also very important. On the FeedBack side of new changes, literally in one of their announcements of the "Arsenal Division", a player in the first comment told them the obvious problem of the changes they were going to make, that comment received more "likes" than their own [DE] post and what did they do? They ignored that and still placed the content as [DE] originally intended it. That was the biggest show of "We don't care what they say" that I've seen of [DE] in the last few months and really, it seems right to me that we talk about it now. (If I find the corresponding posts, I'll edit this by citing them, but for now I'm lazy xd)

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, (XBOX)Harbinger XK5 said:

 

Let's see being constantly thrown out of the objective for no reason up until it fails, liches not spawning when they're supposed to, doors not opening until you use transference assuming the game has bugged out and says abilities unavailable, side turrets not functioning.

outside of bugs the lazy copy paste of already existing tileset's for dull missions in railjack ex. Mobile defense, exterminate, etc. on an added note: While this is the opinion of myself and quite of few other people I've talked to, when i heard about railjack I thought i was going to be flying my ship for the mission not spending 60% of the mission in copy paste tileset's. The only part of railjack that I and anyone i talk to likes is the flying of the railjack, one the best examples of things said is when i was talking to a random on one of the void storms and he said, "If i wanted to an exterminate mission i wouldn't be doing railjack.

I also took a closer look and the demographics for the playerbase since it came out to now and it's not as bad I was led to believe but still if they improved on their tutorial there would be a lot more players. The tutorial expects you know already know everything outside of how to shoot, parkour, and hack.

Sounds alot like multiplayer issues caused by bad hosts, or simply console limitations for the last generation. Never had any of those issues with Railjack, no even when it was brand new and severely bugged. Since RJ released I've had 5 mission breaking bugs and they've all been tied to multiplayer and a bad host/client connection. And that crap is on the player to fix and avoid since DE cannot fix people using wi-fi, hotspots, greedy isp, bad connections in general or bad hardware/software combinations for hosts and clients.

And railjack was always supposed to use other regular modes within it, that was the idea, even to a greater extent than what we have now, since it was supposed to one day be star chart 3.0. So not expecting more and more normal mission modes to be thrown into it means you have missed the whole idea about RJ from the start. People just got a misconception of it with the specific "space only" skirmish that was one of the Grineer nodes.

And if the tutorial would bring more players is questionable after these many years. We see that a specific tutorial wasnt needed, since the game increased massively between release and up to early 2018. That is a steep increase over the course of 5 years, which includes both total players and concurrent players. Most other games tend to increase in total players but drop in concurrent numbers shortly after release. WF hit that normalizing point early 2018 and still hasnt really dropped that much in concurrent numbers. So it is doubtful a tutorial rework would do anything. It isnt hard to find the info needed inside the game after the tutorial either, and the systems of the game arent exactly hard to understand. I still dont get what people think is hard with things such as modding.

11 hours ago, iPathos said:

Your entire first sentence is a contradiction of itself, as said lower in this post I would be plenty happy with a visible flair system to help with categorization - without needing to increase "actual interaction" from the team between them and us.

Few non-triple-A games have as many options to simply vary your gameplay as Warframe does, they tend to die because it's not financially viable to simply continue their working (Wildstar comes to mind). Warframe clearly doesn't have that problem with gaining new players, retention is a larger concern imo. I'm not asking for those specific bugs listed to be addressed, nor do I expect them to fix them solely because I've made this thread and mention them in hotfix threads - I mention those bugs because they're the very first ones that come to mind and I continually try to remind them of these bugs because there isn't enough clarity around what action they're taking or not taking to rectify them.

That would still require them to expand on people and time dedicated to the forums. It isnt sure either if it would make it quicker for them to catch up on and fix bugs for instance.

Wildstar died because it tried to be a WoW clone, like nearly every other trinity based MMO game since WoW came out. Most of them are dead or on life support. WaR died, Wildstar died, Rift is on life support and so on. And you say you "continually" try to remind them of these bugs, yet some of those that are on the top of your mind are completely new or not bugs at all. 

Voidrig's helmet. It is a feature on the mech. People may not like it but it is intended. Not really a hot issues imo.

Furax Body Count works correctly, nothing to fix aside from a mod description.

Out of bounds areas? How often do you seriously run into them to make it a highlighted problem? I think I've gone out of bounds in WF 10 times tops over several thousands of hours.

Nidus Prime invigoration is fixed, they did that very quickly. It just wont take effect until the next time he's up for invigorations.

Merulina is less of an issue than all of Yareli. Viable point though that the frame needs attention (or deletion from the game).

Expanded buff icons have been there since the Plague Star update only. Not really game breaking nor a priority I'd say or requiring time to be wasted to answer us regarding it. Is it an annoying bug? Sure, slightly. Does it interfear with the game? No not the slightest.

 

I mean, only Buzlok and Diplos are actual issues that you raise that could use urgent fixing, along with Pathocyst if it is bugged. But those two guns could probably deserve a full rework instead to make them better overall. But not even these bugs are worth having confirmation being communicated to the community. When they get fixed they get fixed, getting a "not being looked into" wont help anyone, neither will a "being looking into" since we cant do anything about it eitherway. So this leads me to wonder how many of your other pressing issues are actually pressing issues and not just opinionated ideas regarding design (voidrig) or cringe over a minor visual bug (buff icons).

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Furax Body Count works correctly, nothing to fix aside from a mod description.

First and foremost, you good? Have you even read what people like quxier said in this post? It worked entirely as stated before DE changed how blast procs worked (which has been very clearly pinned down to Melee 3.0), which was what they relied on to make the mod function. I have suggested (as have many others) that they use the same effect as is proc'd by Arcane Eruption; a non-status, non-damaging effect that simply knocks enemies down. I'll potentially respond to the other points you made later after I've rested - but that particular point just shows me you've either neglected the pages in the thread (as I very clearly requested you check) or that you've ignored what you read (so as to have the narrative fit your needs). 
Out of bounds areas that shouldn't be where they are? Go visit the Corpus Outpost tileset a little more often and check the connections between rooms. There's at least three I can think of from personal experience and closer to 7 from what I've heard; you just void out for no visible reason.
"Nidus Prime invigoration is fixed, they did that very quickly." - that doesn't in any way help anyone who has a "bad invigoration", regardless of them purchasing the PA.
Even just being able to mod Merulina would help it hugely - let alone the previously stated suggestion that they lower Yareli's hover center so she doesn't smack her head on every single door.
The tutorial has been improved - that much I'm happy to admit to. There's still far more elements to the game that are not explained by DE and need to be detailed by either random people that newbies come across or helpers in given communities.

There are so many points in your post that either indicate or imply that you haven't bothered to check or are refusing to do so of your own volition.

I'm getting very weary of repeating the same point here; Read the thread in its entirety before responding, if you had then your response would change.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, iPathos said:

I've said it countless times already, I didn't clarify well enough in my initial post but have done since. Feedback and interaction around that is a secondary concern to the bug infestation of the game and lack of clarity around intent with them.

Just because something is not in bug section doesn't mean it's not affecting game like bugs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, quxier said:

Just because something is not in bug section doesn't mean it's not affecting game like bugs.

I'm not saying that at all... I'm saying that I've clarified what people perceived this thread to mean since I posted it.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, iPathos said:

First and foremost, you good? Have you even read what people like quxier said in this post? It worked entirely as stated before DE changed how blast procs worked (which has been very clearly pinned down to Melee 3.0), which was what they relied on to make the mod function. I have suggested (as have many others) that they use the same effect as is proc'd by Arcane Eruption; a non-status, non-damaging effect that simply knocks enemies down. I'll potentially respond to the other points you made later after I've rested - but that particular point just shows me you've either neglected the pages in the thread (as I very clearly requested you check) or that you've ignored what you read (so as to have the narrative fit your needs). 
Out of bounds areas that shouldn't be where they are? Go visit the Corpus Outpost tileset a little more often and check the connections between rooms. There's at least three I can think of from personal experience and closer to 7 from what I've heard; you just void out for no visible reason.
"Nidus Prime invigoration is fixed, they did that very quickly." - that doesn't in any way help anyone who has a "bad invigoration", regardless of them purchasing the PA.
Even just being able to mod Merulina would help it hugely - let alone the previously stated suggestion that they lower Yareli's hover center so she doesn't smack her head on every single door.
The tutorial has been improved - that much I'm happy to admit to. There's still far more elements to the game that are not explained by DE and need to be detailed by either random people that newbies come across or helpers in given communities.

There are so many points in your post that either indicate or imply that you haven't bothered to check or are refusing to do so of your own volition.

I'm getting very weary of repeating the same point here; Read the thread in its entirety before responding, if you had then your response would change.

It adds blast procs, so obviously DE decided to use that method in the mod previously to achieve knockdown. However, we dont know if their new intent was to go with the new blast effect as the mod effect, or if they wanted to keep the knockdown. As pointed out int his thread it also procs several blast procs, so it looks like it is intended that it applies the new blast and isnt just an oversight, since prior to the status changes blast couldnt stack and with the status changes the effect of blast also changed. So it would be odd if they added several blast procs if it was an oversight and knockdown was the intended mechanic. In case it was an oversight you'd assume they'd just leave the mod with a single blast proc i.e the old knockdown. So the description of the mod is likely the only part wrong with it.

I've played plenty on Corpus Outpost, like I said I've got thousands of hours in the game and I've barely ran into out of bound areas at all. You gotta be effectively trying to find them to run into them on a regular basis in a mission. Like the Grineer Shipyard tiles where you can see the Ogma (?) platforms with an open door, they are very sideways of the mission and more "oh what is this!?" kinda things that just reset you. Not exactly issues.

You make invigorations sound important. They arent, anyone can live a week without them.

Removing Merulina is the only thing to help the skill and the frame. Putting modding effort into it wouldnt solve the issue where most people still would replace the skill since they hate k-drives. 

Yes the tutorial has been improved, and we can see the same numbers now where they are available to us. The changes didnt impact the game much since the increase in players still mostly happened during the first 4-5 years and the tutorial changes happened in uhm 2020. So there is little reason to think other things being explained more in depth would increase the player gain much.

And please do tell what "many" points indicate that I havent bothered to check. Is it the same "many" as the games you claimed died?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

It adds blast procs, so obviously DE decided to use that method in the mod previously to achieve knockdown. However, we dont know if their new intent was to go with the new blast effect as the mod effect, or if they wanted to keep the knockdown. As pointed out int his thread it also procs several blast procs, so it looks like it is intended that it applies the new blast and isnt just an oversight, since prior to the status changes blast couldnt stack and with the status changes the effect of blast also changed. So it would be odd if they added several blast procs if it was an oversight and knockdown was the intended mechanic. In case it was an oversight you'd assume they'd just leave the mod with a single blast proc i.e the old knockdown. So the description of the mod is likely the only part wrong with it.

I've played plenty on Corpus Outpost, like I said I've got thousands of hours in the game and I've barely ran into out of bound areas at all. You gotta be effectively trying to find them to run into them on a regular basis in a mission. Like the Grineer Shipyard tiles where you can see the Ogma (?) platforms with an open door, they are very sideways of the mission and more "oh what is this!?" kinda things that just reset you. Not exactly issues.

You make invigorations sound important. They arent, anyone can live a week without them.

Removing Merulina is the only thing to help the skill and the frame. Putting modding effort into it wouldnt solve the issue where most people still would replace the skill since they hate k-drives. 

Yes the tutorial has been improved, and we can see the same numbers now where they are available to us. The changes didnt impact the game much since the increase in players still mostly happened during the first 4-5 years and the tutorial changes happened in uhm 2020. So there is little reason to think other things being explained more in depth would increase the player gain much.

And please do tell what "many" points indicate that I havent bothered to check. Is it the same "many" as the games you claimed died?

First and foremost of your statements, where did I claim games died? I've asked this already but nobody has deigned to point it out.

I am fully aware it adds blast procs, if you took the time to check the bug report thread in which I refer to so vehemently then you would see the recordings I have made of the mod and its effects in action. You are welcome to make your assumptions about DE's intent, I and others do the exact same although I disagree with your perception of the intent - I still believe they used blast because it knocked enemies down, not any other variant of the situation. I used the Amalgam religiously before Melee 3.0 gutted any real use from it, both in regards to its passive effect around melee knockdowns and around how many AoE weapons it simply does not affect. The description of the mod is not the issue, else they would have changed that when they changed blast. Furax (and its variants) is just overall an underused weapon and that apparently makes that particular bug a non-issue.

You and I both obviously have thousands of hours in the game and even when you say you've "barely run into them" it implies you have. There are at least three tile borders that can (out of the blue) void you out and apply as if you'd jumped off the map. I say "at least three" because those are the ones I can think of, two of which are branched off of the same elevator tile where there's a Kuria before you enter said elevator. Those ones I refer to are quite literally just areas in the tile connection areas - aka the Doors. You run through them, you get voided out. Reset with no preamble, no reason, loss of all active effects and quite literally no reason for it.

Keeping Merulina makes the lore around Yareli hold true, so I wouldn't hold my breath there. In regards to Aquablades being completely unaffected by range, or Riptide being "a joke of an ultimate ability" as stated within the very feedback thread your own statement refers to; how do we improve it? I can't speak much on the topic, as I've only put two forma into Yareli so far.

The numerical changes that the Tutorial introduces are more indicative of player retention than assumptions made around how players interact with not only the wiki - but also the overall community, both within and without the game.

I say you've failed to check the points I've made because I have detailed similar or the same points I already do in this same post. Go back, read more and come back with your response after a proper read. I have work in the morning, so I will not likely respond until it's either necessary or possible.

Good day.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, iPathos said:

First and foremost of your statements, where did I claim games died? I've asked this already but nobody has deigned to point it out.

I am fully aware it adds blast procs, if you took the time to check the bug report thread in which I refer to so vehemently then you would see the recordings I have made of the mod and its effects in action. You are welcome to make your assumptions about DE's intent, I and others do the exact same although I disagree with your perception of the intent - I still believe they used blast because it knocked enemies down, not any other variant of the situation. I used the Amalgam religiously before Melee 3.0 gutted any real use from it, both in regards to its passive effect around melee knockdowns and around how many AoE weapons it simply does not affect. The description of the mod is not the issue, else they would have changed that when they changed blast. Furax (and its variants) is just overall an underused weapon and that apparently makes that particular bug a non-issue.

You and I both obviously have thousands of hours in the game and even when you say you've "barely run into them" it implies you have. There are at least three tile borders that can (out of the blue) void you out and apply as if you'd jumped off the map. I say "at least three" because those are the ones I can think of, two of which are branched off of the same elevator tile where there's a Kuria before you enter said elevator. Those ones I refer to are quite literally just areas in the tile connection areas - aka the Doors. You run through them, you get voided out. Reset with no preamble, no reason, loss of all active effects and quite literally no reason for it.

Keeping Merulina makes the lore around Yareli hold true, so I wouldn't hold my breath there. In regards to Aquablades being completely unaffected by range, or Riptide being "a joke of an ultimate ability" as stated within the very feedback thread your own statement refers to; how do we improve it? I can't speak much on the topic, as I've only put two forma into Yareli so far.

The numerical changes that the Tutorial introduces are more indicative of player retention than assumptions made around how players interact with not only the wiki - but also the overall community, both within and without the game.

I say you've failed to check the points I've made because I have detailed similar or the same points I already do in this same post. Go back, read more and come back with your response after a proper read. I have work in the morning, so I will not likely respond until it's either necessary or possible.

Good day.

Ah damn! Sorry man, I mixed up parts of what another guy said with what you said. It was the other person that claimed games were dying. Again, sorry.

And yeah, they used blast because it did knockdown, but that didnt change with the melee changes, it changed when they introduced status stacking and where they changed how blast works. That is why it looks like they changed it intentionally to apply the new blast effect and not a knockdown. If this was just an oversight and knockdown was still intended they wouldnt have added 6(?) blast stacks. They would have kept it to either 1 or made it 10 (new full blast potential) and missed to account for the new blast not knocking things down. 6 is a very random number though to just be an oversight.

Of course I've ran into them. I'm just pointing out the very small impact it actually has and which place it should take it bug fixing priority. I mean, it is good proof that everyone in the community values things very differently. For me the out of bounds issues are probably one of the lowest numbers of a list of bug fixes, but for you it seems to be a very important issue.  And I cant say you are wrong, because it is a matter of opinion in the end.

Yeah there is little chance that the fish will get replaced since Yareli is the "k-drive frame". Regarding Aquablades. copy-pasta flechette orb mechanics and make Yareli the "orb", give the blades a maximum range where they can hit enemies based on Yareli as ground zero, then have ranged mods scale that range further. It would allow Yareli to scale well versus mobs and promote her mobility on merulina and her lack of having access to melee and most powerful AoE guns. Riptide needs severely reduced cast time because right now it is like a slowcast hybrid fusion of Zephyr's 2 and Vauban's 3, which just doesnt work really well at all. I said in another thread regarding her that they should turn her 4th into a "dust devil" kinda thing from the D3 barbarian, a water vortex wake that follows her and leaves a damaging water trail similar to fire walker while vaccuming enemies into it. Would fit her currently distant mobile theme.

But wouldnt that just prove that the changes to the tutorial are unneeded, since player numbers and retention havent increased because of them compared to the old? At the very least it shows that tutorial changes arent an overhanging priority, since they do little for the game. I'd understand a value in them if there was an actual notable increase in connection to them. Though I guess if say a better mod introduction was made certain players would stay longer since they wouldnt have to interact with other players or a third party wiki. But then come the question, would they be enough to be worth catering to when most of the info you actually need for mods is already in the game? And I can only go to myself, I didnt ask anyone, I didnt wiki it up or use any other third party info site when I figured out modding. I used what was accessible in the game at that time and had no issues with it. But I also look at it with possibly shaded eyes because I had 18 years or so of (M)MORPG and regular rpg/looter experience when I hit up WF. Maybe the game does need better tutorials for people that dont come from the same background in gaming?

And again, sorry for mixing you up with the other guy.

Edited by SneakyErvin
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2021-09-16 at 6:14 PM, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

I have no doubt that DE are doing their best; it's just that sometimes their best isn't really good enough.

they certainly could communicate better, no doubt about that, but a lot of people only want them to say the things they want to hear. if you ask them to communicate more, and they spit out news of Delays, cancellations, content you don't want etc, then would you be happy? would you appreciate that they communicated that to you, or would you be too livid that something is delayed or cancelled to care? most people I think would fall into the latter, and that's why bad news is often swept under the rug or forgotten about entirely, even when it's things players really ought to know, such as when we were told New War was delayed. 

everybody wants to hear DE, and we want them to hear us, but not everybody will like the things they have to say, and they will not always like the things that we have to say about them sometimes; such is the downside of communication.

 

 

personally I would be grateful that they are at least listening.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2021-09-17 at 8:51 AM, SneakyErvin said:

But wouldnt that just prove that the changes to the tutorial are unneeded, since player numbers and retention havent increased because of them compared to the old? At the very least it shows that tutorial changes arent an overhanging priority, since they do little for the game. I'd understand a value in them if there was an actual notable increase in connection to them. Though I guess if say a better mod introduction was made certain players would stay longer since they wouldnt have to interact with other players or a third party wiki. But then come the question, would they be enough to be worth catering to when most of the info you actually need for mods is already in the game? And I can only go to myself, I didnt ask anyone, I didnt wiki it up or use any other third party info site when I figured out modding. I used what was accessible in the game at that time and had no issues with it. But I also look at it with possibly shaded eyes because I had 18 years or so of (M)MORPG and regular rpg/looter experience when I hit up WF. Maybe the game does need better tutorials for people that dont come from the same background in gaming?

Do you know how hard it is to get someone into this game when they can't figure out anything after they kill captain vor. when I started back in 2016 I didn't even know there was a wiki yet I pushed through and it took me 2 and a half weeks before I knew how to upgrade a mod. I didn't know what a forma even was until two months in. I didn't know about the existence of wiki until I was three years into the game nor did I have any means to access said wiki even if I did. every returning player I meet, ever single one says to me that they quit the game because they couldn't figure out what to do. I lost count of how many times I've heard that same reason over and over again. if they expanded on the tutorial the playerbase could easily double maybe even triple. also the only change they made to the tutorial is adding it to Cetus not a single bit of new or important information was added.

Edited by (XBOX)Harbinger XK5
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...