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DE, more communication would be greatly appreciated


iPathos
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21 minutes ago, iPathos said:

First and foremost, you good? Have you even read what people like quxier said in this post? It worked entirely as stated before DE changed how blast procs worked (which has been very clearly pinned down to Melee 3.0), which was what they relied on to make the mod function. I have suggested (as have many others) that they use the same effect as is proc'd by Arcane Eruption; a non-status, non-damaging effect that simply knocks enemies down. I'll potentially respond to the other points you made later after I've rested - but that particular point just shows me you've either neglected the pages in the thread (as I very clearly requested you check) or that you've ignored what you read (so as to have the narrative fit your needs). 
Out of bounds areas that shouldn't be where they are? Go visit the Corpus Outpost tileset a little more often and check the connections between rooms. There's at least three I can think of from personal experience and closer to 7 from what I've heard; you just void out for no visible reason.
"Nidus Prime invigoration is fixed, they did that very quickly." - that doesn't in any way help anyone who has a "bad invigoration", regardless of them purchasing the PA.
Even just being able to mod Merulina would help it hugely - let alone the previously stated suggestion that they lower Yareli's hover center so she doesn't smack her head on every single door.
The tutorial has been improved - that much I'm happy to admit to. There's still far more elements to the game that are not explained by DE and need to be detailed by either random people that newbies come across or helpers in given communities.

There are so many points in your post that either indicate or imply that you haven't bothered to check or are refusing to do so of your own volition.

I'm getting very weary of repeating the same point here; Read the thread in its entirety before responding, if you had then your response would change.

It adds blast procs, so obviously DE decided to use that method in the mod previously to achieve knockdown. However, we dont know if their new intent was to go with the new blast effect as the mod effect, or if they wanted to keep the knockdown. As pointed out int his thread it also procs several blast procs, so it looks like it is intended that it applies the new blast and isnt just an oversight, since prior to the status changes blast couldnt stack and with the status changes the effect of blast also changed. So it would be odd if they added several blast procs if it was an oversight and knockdown was the intended mechanic. In case it was an oversight you'd assume they'd just leave the mod with a single blast proc i.e the old knockdown. So the description of the mod is likely the only part wrong with it.

I've played plenty on Corpus Outpost, like I said I've got thousands of hours in the game and I've barely ran into out of bound areas at all. You gotta be effectively trying to find them to run into them on a regular basis in a mission. Like the Grineer Shipyard tiles where you can see the Ogma (?) platforms with an open door, they are very sideways of the mission and more "oh what is this!?" kinda things that just reset you. Not exactly issues.

You make invigorations sound important. They arent, anyone can live a week without them.

Removing Merulina is the only thing to help the skill and the frame. Putting modding effort into it wouldnt solve the issue where most people still would replace the skill since they hate k-drives. 

Yes the tutorial has been improved, and we can see the same numbers now where they are available to us. The changes didnt impact the game much since the increase in players still mostly happened during the first 4-5 years and the tutorial changes happened in uhm 2020. So there is little reason to think other things being explained more in depth would increase the player gain much.

And please do tell what "many" points indicate that I havent bothered to check. Is it the same "many" as the games you claimed died?

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13 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

It adds blast procs, so obviously DE decided to use that method in the mod previously to achieve knockdown. However, we dont know if their new intent was to go with the new blast effect as the mod effect, or if they wanted to keep the knockdown. As pointed out int his thread it also procs several blast procs, so it looks like it is intended that it applies the new blast and isnt just an oversight, since prior to the status changes blast couldnt stack and with the status changes the effect of blast also changed. So it would be odd if they added several blast procs if it was an oversight and knockdown was the intended mechanic. In case it was an oversight you'd assume they'd just leave the mod with a single blast proc i.e the old knockdown. So the description of the mod is likely the only part wrong with it.

I've played plenty on Corpus Outpost, like I said I've got thousands of hours in the game and I've barely ran into out of bound areas at all. You gotta be effectively trying to find them to run into them on a regular basis in a mission. Like the Grineer Shipyard tiles where you can see the Ogma (?) platforms with an open door, they are very sideways of the mission and more "oh what is this!?" kinda things that just reset you. Not exactly issues.

You make invigorations sound important. They arent, anyone can live a week without them.

Removing Merulina is the only thing to help the skill and the frame. Putting modding effort into it wouldnt solve the issue where most people still would replace the skill since they hate k-drives. 

Yes the tutorial has been improved, and we can see the same numbers now where they are available to us. The changes didnt impact the game much since the increase in players still mostly happened during the first 4-5 years and the tutorial changes happened in uhm 2020. So there is little reason to think other things being explained more in depth would increase the player gain much.

And please do tell what "many" points indicate that I havent bothered to check. Is it the same "many" as the games you claimed died?

First and foremost of your statements, where did I claim games died? I've asked this already but nobody has deigned to point it out.

I am fully aware it adds blast procs, if you took the time to check the bug report thread in which I refer to so vehemently then you would see the recordings I have made of the mod and its effects in action. You are welcome to make your assumptions about DE's intent, I and others do the exact same although I disagree with your perception of the intent - I still believe they used blast because it knocked enemies down, not any other variant of the situation. I used the Amalgam religiously before Melee 3.0 gutted any real use from it, both in regards to its passive effect around melee knockdowns and around how many AoE weapons it simply does not affect. The description of the mod is not the issue, else they would have changed that when they changed blast. Furax (and its variants) is just overall an underused weapon and that apparently makes that particular bug a non-issue.

You and I both obviously have thousands of hours in the game and even when you say you've "barely run into them" it implies you have. There are at least three tile borders that can (out of the blue) void you out and apply as if you'd jumped off the map. I say "at least three" because those are the ones I can think of, two of which are branched off of the same elevator tile where there's a Kuria before you enter said elevator. Those ones I refer to are quite literally just areas in the tile connection areas - aka the Doors. You run through them, you get voided out. Reset with no preamble, no reason, loss of all active effects and quite literally no reason for it.

Keeping Merulina makes the lore around Yareli hold true, so I wouldn't hold my breath there. In regards to Aquablades being completely unaffected by range, or Riptide being "a joke of an ultimate ability" as stated within the very feedback thread your own statement refers to; how do we improve it? I can't speak much on the topic, as I've only put two forma into Yareli so far.

The numerical changes that the Tutorial introduces are more indicative of player retention than assumptions made around how players interact with not only the wiki - but also the overall community, both within and without the game.

I say you've failed to check the points I've made because I have detailed similar or the same points I already do in this same post. Go back, read more and come back with your response after a proper read. I have work in the morning, so I will not likely respond until it's either necessary or possible.

Good day.

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1 hour ago, iPathos said:

First and foremost of your statements, where did I claim games died? I've asked this already but nobody has deigned to point it out.

I am fully aware it adds blast procs, if you took the time to check the bug report thread in which I refer to so vehemently then you would see the recordings I have made of the mod and its effects in action. You are welcome to make your assumptions about DE's intent, I and others do the exact same although I disagree with your perception of the intent - I still believe they used blast because it knocked enemies down, not any other variant of the situation. I used the Amalgam religiously before Melee 3.0 gutted any real use from it, both in regards to its passive effect around melee knockdowns and around how many AoE weapons it simply does not affect. The description of the mod is not the issue, else they would have changed that when they changed blast. Furax (and its variants) is just overall an underused weapon and that apparently makes that particular bug a non-issue.

You and I both obviously have thousands of hours in the game and even when you say you've "barely run into them" it implies you have. There are at least three tile borders that can (out of the blue) void you out and apply as if you'd jumped off the map. I say "at least three" because those are the ones I can think of, two of which are branched off of the same elevator tile where there's a Kuria before you enter said elevator. Those ones I refer to are quite literally just areas in the tile connection areas - aka the Doors. You run through them, you get voided out. Reset with no preamble, no reason, loss of all active effects and quite literally no reason for it.

Keeping Merulina makes the lore around Yareli hold true, so I wouldn't hold my breath there. In regards to Aquablades being completely unaffected by range, or Riptide being "a joke of an ultimate ability" as stated within the very feedback thread your own statement refers to; how do we improve it? I can't speak much on the topic, as I've only put two forma into Yareli so far.

The numerical changes that the Tutorial introduces are more indicative of player retention than assumptions made around how players interact with not only the wiki - but also the overall community, both within and without the game.

I say you've failed to check the points I've made because I have detailed similar or the same points I already do in this same post. Go back, read more and come back with your response after a proper read. I have work in the morning, so I will not likely respond until it's either necessary or possible.

Good day.

Ah damn! Sorry man, I mixed up parts of what another guy said with what you said. It was the other person that claimed games were dying. Again, sorry.

And yeah, they used blast because it did knockdown, but that didnt change with the melee changes, it changed when they introduced status stacking and where they changed how blast works. That is why it looks like they changed it intentionally to apply the new blast effect and not a knockdown. If this was just an oversight and knockdown was still intended they wouldnt have added 6(?) blast stacks. They would have kept it to either 1 or made it 10 (new full blast potential) and missed to account for the new blast not knocking things down. 6 is a very random number though to just be an oversight.

Of course I've ran into them. I'm just pointing out the very small impact it actually has and which place it should take it bug fixing priority. I mean, it is good proof that everyone in the community values things very differently. For me the out of bounds issues are probably one of the lowest numbers of a list of bug fixes, but for you it seems to be a very important issue.  And I cant say you are wrong, because it is a matter of opinion in the end.

Yeah there is little chance that the fish will get replaced since Yareli is the "k-drive frame". Regarding Aquablades. copy-pasta flechette orb mechanics and make Yareli the "orb", give the blades a maximum range where they can hit enemies based on Yareli as ground zero, then have ranged mods scale that range further. It would allow Yareli to scale well versus mobs and promote her mobility on merulina and her lack of having access to melee and most powerful AoE guns. Riptide needs severely reduced cast time because right now it is like a slowcast hybrid fusion of Zephyr's 2 and Vauban's 3, which just doesnt work really well at all. I said in another thread regarding her that they should turn her 4th into a "dust devil" kinda thing from the D3 barbarian, a water vortex wake that follows her and leaves a damaging water trail similar to fire walker while vaccuming enemies into it. Would fit her currently distant mobile theme.

But wouldnt that just prove that the changes to the tutorial are unneeded, since player numbers and retention havent increased because of them compared to the old? At the very least it shows that tutorial changes arent an overhanging priority, since they do little for the game. I'd understand a value in them if there was an actual notable increase in connection to them. Though I guess if say a better mod introduction was made certain players would stay longer since they wouldnt have to interact with other players or a third party wiki. But then come the question, would they be enough to be worth catering to when most of the info you actually need for mods is already in the game? And I can only go to myself, I didnt ask anyone, I didnt wiki it up or use any other third party info site when I figured out modding. I used what was accessible in the game at that time and had no issues with it. But I also look at it with possibly shaded eyes because I had 18 years or so of (M)MORPG and regular rpg/looter experience when I hit up WF. Maybe the game does need better tutorials for people that dont come from the same background in gaming?

And again, sorry for mixing you up with the other guy.

Edited by SneakyErvin
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On 2021-09-16 at 6:14 PM, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

I have no doubt that DE are doing their best; it's just that sometimes their best isn't really good enough.

they certainly could communicate better, no doubt about that, but a lot of people only want them to say the things they want to hear. if you ask them to communicate more, and they spit out news of Delays, cancellations, content you don't want etc, then would you be happy? would you appreciate that they communicated that to you, or would you be too livid that something is delayed or cancelled to care? most people I think would fall into the latter, and that's why bad news is often swept under the rug or forgotten about entirely, even when it's things players really ought to know, such as when we were told New War was delayed. 

everybody wants to hear DE, and we want them to hear us, but not everybody will like the things they have to say, and they will not always like the things that we have to say about them sometimes; such is the downside of communication.

 

 

personally I would be grateful that they are at least listening.

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On 2021-09-17 at 8:51 AM, SneakyErvin said:

But wouldnt that just prove that the changes to the tutorial are unneeded, since player numbers and retention havent increased because of them compared to the old? At the very least it shows that tutorial changes arent an overhanging priority, since they do little for the game. I'd understand a value in them if there was an actual notable increase in connection to them. Though I guess if say a better mod introduction was made certain players would stay longer since they wouldnt have to interact with other players or a third party wiki. But then come the question, would they be enough to be worth catering to when most of the info you actually need for mods is already in the game? And I can only go to myself, I didnt ask anyone, I didnt wiki it up or use any other third party info site when I figured out modding. I used what was accessible in the game at that time and had no issues with it. But I also look at it with possibly shaded eyes because I had 18 years or so of (M)MORPG and regular rpg/looter experience when I hit up WF. Maybe the game does need better tutorials for people that dont come from the same background in gaming?

Do you know how hard it is to get someone into this game when they can't figure out anything after they kill captain vor. when I started back in 2016 I didn't even know there was a wiki yet I pushed through and it took me 2 and a half weeks before I knew how to upgrade a mod. I didn't know what a forma even was until two months in. I didn't know about the existence of wiki until I was three years into the game nor did I have any means to access said wiki even if I did. every returning player I meet, ever single one says to me that they quit the game because they couldn't figure out what to do. I lost count of how many times I've heard that same reason over and over again. if they expanded on the tutorial the playerbase could easily double maybe even triple. also the only change they made to the tutorial is adding it to Cetus not a single bit of new or important information was added.

Edited by (XBOX)Harbinger XK5
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20 hours ago, (XBOX)Harbinger XK5 said:

Do you know how hard it is to get someone into this game when they can't figure out anything after they kill captain vor. when I started back in 2016 I didn't even know there was a wiki yet I pushed through and it took me 2 and a half weeks before I knew how to upgrade a mod. I didn't know what a forma even was until two months in. I didn't know about the existence of wiki until I was three years into the game nor did I have any means to access said wiki even if I did. every returning player I meet, ever single one says to me that they quit the game because they couldn't figure out what to do. I lost count of how many times I've heard that same reason over and over again. if they expanded on the tutorial the playerbase could easily double maybe even triple. also the only change they made to the tutorial is adding it to Cetus not a single bit of new or important information was added.

I also started the game and I used the wiki for like 2 bosses, things that shouldnt be explained by the game eitherway imo. I had zero issues getting the hang of the systems on my own though. But as I admitted to the OP, my view on how easy it is can be shaded, or jaded depending on how you look at it by having long MMORPG, arpg, rpg and shooter experience in the trunk prior to picking up WF. For me, WF has been one of the least confusing games I've picked up and played.

I'm very doubtful that an expanded tutorial would come close doubling the playerbase since the basic things arent that hard to understand, so those people would quit at the next thing instead, then people would beg for handholding, simplification and homogenization elsewhere aswell, and we'd end up with WoW post Cataclysm more or less. It isnt like WF has a small playerbase, that means that there are plenty of people that get past the basics without significant issues.

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5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I also started the game and I used the wiki for like 2 bosses, things that shouldnt be explained by the game eitherway imo. I had zero issues getting the hang of the systems on my own though. But as I admitted to the OP, my view on how easy it is can be shaded, or jaded depending on how you look at it by having long MMORPG, arpg, rpg and shooter experience in the trunk prior to picking up WF. For me, WF has been one of the least confusing games I've picked up and played.

I'm very doubtful that an expanded tutorial would come close doubling the playerbase since the basic things arent that hard to understand, so those people would quit at the next thing instead, then people would beg for handholding, simplification and homogenization elsewhere aswell, and we'd end up with WoW post Cataclysm more or less. It isnt like WF has a small playerbase, that means that there are plenty of people that get past the basics without significant issues.

I'm not saying make everything into a tutorial I'm saying give people a clue as to what to do after vor and how to mod, upgrade mods, etc. not everyone knows there's a wiki and not everyone has access to it if they do. and the hints the game gives you tend to be vague or misleading. 

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On 2021-09-19 at 2:59 AM, (XBOX)Harbinger XK5 said:

personally I would be grateful that they are at least listening.

Have you read the Holokey and Yareli feedback threads, let alone any of the individual feedback threads or forums? If they're listening, they have a fidelity of around 10% at best.

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6 hours ago, iPathos said:

Have you read the Holokey and Yareli feedback threads, let alone any of the individual feedback threads or forums? If they're listening, they have a fidelity of around 10% at best.

They're listening, but they're choosing to ignore what's being said because they know better.

Back in the early days of "The Old Blood" there was a Dev stream in which a certain Dev when asked stated live on camera that after reading the forums they felt that the overwhelming negative feeling from the players about the update was that Kuva Liches didn't take long enough to kill.

As someone who was posting in these topics at the time I can pretty much guarantee the the actual issued were anything but that, in fact, I checked back at the time and time to kill wasn't even mentioned on this forum.

It is however, a well known meme that if you want DE to actually take any notice of something in Warframe you need to post it on the Reddit.

After all, one person on Reddit managed to get Universal Medallion functionality removed from Conclave, so it must be true.

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13 hours ago, iPathos said:

Have you read the Holokey and Yareli feedback threads, let alone any of the individual feedback threads or forums? If they're listening, they have a fidelity of around 10% at best.

In reality the holokeys never needed any changes. They just needed a few bug fixes, since the bugs are the main reason why the keys drop so poorly at times to begin with. And those bugs are still there afaik, which makes it look like the changes didnt do much. The buffs to the system in the workshop are more than enough if they fix the actual bugs. But right now, if you notice a dryspell restart the game or atleast go back to your orbiter and sign up again. When I figured that out I had zero issues getting the keys I needed and got myself a maxed out weapon plus a few different elemental combination tested for a few others in no time. Yareli needs alot more though, but they've pretty much busted that frame by making Merulina an active skill with the horrible limitations tied to it in return for some health buff. That is a quarter of her potential kit completely wasted, along with 3 other weak skills. They will never be able to patch her into a good state with the kit she has unless they rework her 1, 3 and 4 completely.

6 hours ago, Fl_3 said:

As someone who was posting in these topics at the time I can pretty much guarantee the the actual issued were anything but that, in fact, I checked back at the time and time to kill wasn't even mentioned on this forum.

There was mentioning of that, they just didnt use the words time to kill. There were plenty of complaints regarding how the liches were nothing like the epic long term relationship thing DE "had shown during Tennocon" and talked about earlier. That is the TTK DE were talking about that people complained over. It wasnt about the actual showdown or each engagement with them, it was about the length of the whole thing. And I'm quite glad that DE removed that prior to the intitial releases when they found out it just didnt work well, which they also stated a few times in different streams leading up to it.

That and the backbreaking for no real reason were two of the main complaints about the system. Then it went back and forth alot regarding murmur grinding, lich tries being unrewarding and so on. A big reason why the liches took time before recieving changes was really just bullheadedness rooted in some "pride" a certain dev had for the system even though it was bad. We later got exactly the changes we wanted.

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