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Mobile defense on steal path. YIKES!


Velaethia
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This... this is super bad. One single unit can take the objective down in 20 seconds. Multiple units can take it down in 5 seconds. This is counter intuitive to the philosophy of steal path. Especially considering you HAVE to succeed in ALL 3 defense objectives. Or you LOSE. Because they kill the objective so fast and it's HP regain is virtually nil you have 2 choices to beat a mobile defense mission in steal path. Option A: Nuke build kill everything in seconds. Only a few frames can do this in steal path. It also changes which frame you can viably use depending on which faction. Corpus is especially bad because they also spawn nullies like no tomorrow. Option B: Infinite CC. You need to be able to CC EVERY single unit that has LoS against the objective because like I said even a single unit can take it down in 20 seconds. I'm finding it impossible to do on Sevagoth. Took everything I had, my best weapons and I got 1 down. Unfortunately I insta lose if I die because Sevagoth's death mechanic is actually a HINDERANCE in this mission. Others can insta rez and knock back. Not Sevagoth. Wish I could skip his death mechanic by just holding F because it takes too long to rez once it activates so I've already lost if I die. So that means a survival build then right? Nope because then I lack the damage and CC. It's insane. I have 70% slow via gloom and they still attack like a video of a machine gun playing at 10x speed. It does buy me precious extra seconds to fight them but since I'm not using a tank build I have to dance around like crazy to avoid dying which is incredibly difficult. I can bring a vampire kavat to rez but companions tend to die stupid fast in steal path which is another issue. Now I was able to beat the mission using Nidus and just keeping all the units permently cc'd. Even then I still struggled. I swear corpus mobile defense on steal path is something else. Fighting like 5x more units than even the most crowded survival mission. Literally goes from 5 to 50 units in only a few seconds and they just keep coming. I can't one shot them with Sevagoth and every second alive they're nuking the objective in no time at all even with a 70% slow applies. So yeah on Sevagoth I was able to do the first one and failed on the second one. Why? Well I had activated my shadow which has a better CC but I missed a single MoA. The moa brought it from 50% to 0 in only a few seconds I couldn't even react fast enough. Literally none of the other steal path missions are torturous like this. I can normally play Sevagoth fine. In fact I've facerolled grineer on steal path and usually have a harder time with grineer than corpus on steal path because their insanely high armor. But not on mobile defense. Like yeah I was still able to complete the objective with Nidus. But I don't understand why it's so extreme. It's not a steal path thing. Steal path shouldn't be built around one shot or map-wide cc to succeed. No slow and steady tank? Nuke or CC is the only options that's not a great feeling for frames that can't do either well. Sevagoth shadow has a decent cc but it's not large enough and if you miss 1 or 2 you're likely screwed. Plus you have to farm kills before activating the first objective to even use it. The particular mission I am struggling on is Carme, Jupiter. 

The objective has MUCH more health than I do. But it dies WAY faster and that's not saying I die slow either. So a good suggestion would be to make it take less damage or increase it's shield/hp by like 10x. Also consider making the regen of hp and shield to be more than next to nothing. Allow the objective to survive more than 5 seconds of group fire. So you can bring someone who doesn't one shot like 120+ enemies or can cc an entire room. 

Of course I know no one cares and I'll probably just get "git gud scrub" but this is my feedback none-the-less.

Also in corpus maps in general maybe reduce the amount of nullies. I actually like to use abilities sometimes.

Edited by Velaethia
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Just now, Pinegulf said:

Hm? I just played Limbo on those. 4+2. Just shot nullifier bubbles before they got too close.  It was a bit tricky, but not impossible. 

Limbo and Frost both have technique that can protect. Sevagoth for example cannot. His slow is nice and all but you need 250% ability strength to get it to 90% slow and even that doesn't seem like enough. Compare to frost who blocks all damage and limbo who can perma stun anyone in a bubble

Not saying the mission is impossible. Just virtually impossible without a mechanic like that.

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2 minutes ago, Velaethia said:

Limbo and Frost both have technique that can protect. Sevagoth for example cannot. His slow is nice and all but you need 250% ability strength to get it to 90% slow and even that doesn't seem like enough. Compare to frost who blocks all damage and limbo who can perma stun anyone in a bubble

Not saying the mission is impossible. Just virtually impossible without a mechanic like that.

This kinda comes down to using the right tool for the job though. You are defending something, it makes sense that a defensive frame would be kind of perfect this type of mission. I remember when it was really important to pick the right frame for the job, and as much as I dislike steel path I can appreciate it for bringing back that feeling. Yeah it's nice to get to play with the frames you prefer but sometimes you need to fill a different role. At least there are several options in each category of roles now.

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Don’t stress over it. Steel Path is kind of a crazy-go-nuts build tester with a handful of unique rewards, and not every build or even every frame/weapon will do well if they keep up at all. That’s what testing means.

This’d be the thing where it’s not ideal to balance around SP, because how does one bring everything else up to par for that? The rest of the game gives a lot more options while also being where most things are

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
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1 hour ago, Velaethia said:

This... this is super bad. One single unit can take the objective down in 20 seconds. Multiple units can take it down in 5 seconds. This is counter intuitive to the philosophy of steal path. Especially considering you HAVE to succeed in ALL 3 defense objectives. Or you LOSE. Because they kill the objective so fast and it's HP regain is virtually nil you have 2 choices to beat a mobile defense mission in steal path. Option A: Nuke build kill everything in seconds. Only a few frames can do this in steal path. It also changes which frame you can viably use depending on which faction. Corpus is especially bad because they also spawn nullies like no tomorrow. Option B: Infinite CC. You need to be able to CC EVERY single unit that has LoS against the objective because like I said even a single unit can take it down in 20 seconds. I'm finding it impossible to do on Sevagoth. Took everything I had, my best weapons and I got 1 down. Unfortunately I insta lose if I die because Sevagoth's death mechanic is actually a HINDERANCE in this mission. Others can insta rez and knock back. Not Sevagoth. Wish I could skip his death mechanic by just holding F because it takes too long to rez once it activates so I've already lost if I die. So that means a survival build then right? Nope because then I lack the damage and CC. It's insane. I have 70% slow via gloom and they still attack like a video of a machine gun playing at 10x speed. It does buy me precious extra seconds to fight them but since I'm not using a tank build I have to dance around like crazy to avoid dying which is incredibly difficult. I can bring a vampire kavat to rez but companions tend to die stupid fast in steal path which is another issue. Now I was able to beat the mission using Nidus and just keeping all the units permently cc'd. Even then I still struggled. I swear corpus mobile defense on steal path is something else. Fighting like 5x more units than even the most crowded survival mission. Literally goes from 5 to 50 units in only a few seconds and they just keep coming. I can't one shot them with Sevagoth and every second alive they're nuking the objective in no time at all even with a 70% slow applies. So yeah on Sevagoth I was able to do the first one and failed on the second one. Why? Well I had activated my shadow which has a better CC but I missed a single MoA. The moa brought it from 50% to 0 in only a few seconds I couldn't even react fast enough. Literally none of the other steal path missions are torturous like this. I can normally play Sevagoth fine. In fact I've facerolled grineer on steal path and usually have a harder time with grineer than corpus on steal path because their insanely high armor. But not on mobile defense. Like yeah I was still able to complete the objective with Nidus. But I don't understand why it's so extreme. It's not a steal path thing. Steal path shouldn't be built around one shot or map-wide cc to succeed. No slow and steady tank? Nuke or CC is the only options that's not a great feeling for frames that can't do either well. Sevagoth shadow has a decent cc but it's not large enough and if you miss 1 or 2 you're likely screwed. Plus you have to farm kills before activating the first objective to even use it. The particular mission I am struggling on is Carme, Jupiter. 

The objective has MUCH more health than I do. But it dies WAY faster and that's not saying I die slow either. So a good suggestion would be to make it take less damage or increase it's shield/hp by like 10x. Also consider making the regen of hp and shield to be more than next to nothing. Allow the objective to survive more than 5 seconds of group fire. So you can bring someone who doesn't one shot like 120+ enemies or can cc an entire room. 

Of course I know no one cares and I'll probably just get "git gud scrub" but this is my feedback none-the-less.

Also in corpus maps in general maybe reduce the amount of nullies. I actually like to use abilities sometimes.

The balance in Warframe is a little wonky to say the least and it becomes more apparent in Steel Path. There are various mechanics that results in a player jumping from being fairly ineffective to trivializing the game, with little ground inbetween. You've touched on one such an example, regarding some defense mission mechanics. Another example is Grineer and their armor-scaling at some higher levels in SP: You can reduce armor, deal upfront damage and (relatively speaking, depending on enemy level) take a while to kill that enemy, or you can trivialize that enemy by negating the armor's effect, by fully stripping the armor or simply bypassing it.

Personally I'd love to see less of a jump in player effectiveness as one goes from semi-optimized strategies/tactics to fully optimized strategies/tactics and a more gradual loss of effectiveness as one uses less and less of a counter, but I don't know if that is going to happen anytime soon, if ever, to be honest.

 

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Git gud scrub.

No but seriously, you should use different frames/weapons depending on the mission instead of asking to make the mission easier.

You have to defend an objective? Then use a frame that's good at defending. Khora, Frost, Gara, Limbo etc. Sevagoth just isn't very good for that and that's fine. 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Velaethia said:

Limbo and Frost both have technique that can protect. Sevagoth for example cannot. His slow is nice and all but you need 250% ability strength to get it to 90% slow and even that doesn't seem like enough. Compare to frost who blocks all damage and limbo who can perma stun anyone in a bubble

Not saying the mission is impossible. Just virtually impossible without a mechanic like that.

So please tell me:
Why are you bringing a frame with zero object defense options into a mission that is object defense?

 

Steel path is meant for people that have experience in the game and the tools needed to solve various problems that they encounter, not for bringing "lulz random" and succeeding without any thought what-so-ever.

 

I mean you're basically complaining "Why can't Loki defend objectives just as well as Frost/Limbo/Other frames can?" ((EDIT: and even then there are ways through smart subsuming of abilities to make some frames like Loki able to more easily handle those situations even if it would require more upkeep and attention than some other options....))
You're trying to put a square peg into a round hole and then complaining that they don't fit right when you do that.

 

Maybe you should actually use your tools, use tactics, bring along stuff to make it easier/doable, espeically if you're doing it solo.

 

You have 47 frames to choose from, each with their own strengths, weaknesses, and use cases.  When you're on steel path you should both have the tools and knowledge to go "I'm doing a mission that requires protecting an objective....what frames are good at protecting objectives?" and succeed in the mission.
Instead you're going "But I want to bring random frame X for the lulz random, why can't I succeed when doing this solo?!?  Game must be broken!"

9 hours ago, Velaethia said:

Steal path shouldn't be built around one shot or map-wide cc to succeed. No slow and steady tank? Nuke or CC is the only options that's not a great feeling for frames that can't do either well.

And here's the thing: It's not.
But it is built around bringing the right tool for the right job.

In the case of "defend an objective" that is "bring a frame that has defensive abilities to defend the objective".

 

I don't use map-wide CC frames or nuke frames in Steel Path, find it boring to do so.  Yet I managed to fully complete the steel path because I actually went "What frame has the abilities needed to succeed in this mission?" and then I brought the right frame for the right job.

Edited by Tsukinoki
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14 hours ago, Velaethia said:

This is counter intuitive to the philosophy of steal path.

DE plainly stated SP was to "use the best gear you have". Not for it to be, you load in and guaranteed success the same way star chart is.

Missions like MD are also the only time any defensive Warframes even serve any purpose at all. DE had even added more options to what can defend them by allowing more healing, a combination of that and not letting enemies freely do damage makes MD pretty difficult to fail without bugs.

The only time I've actually failed MD on SP was in the one corpus tile where you defend one outside, a ship flew by and instantly deleted it. Other than that, I hadn't experienced issues and I don't even use defense or dps Warframes; or even aoe guns.

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Mobile Defense is a - Defensive game mode. So bringing a Defensive Frame is somewhat important. 

Crowd Control is key, not single target damage. So you would be surprised how amazing some abilities like a Stomp Rhino is when it comes to stun locking enemies. 

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