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Ghoulsaw: Butcher’s Revelry Changes.


[DE]Rebecca

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8 hours ago, Flannoit said:

WF is one of the few games where default for controllers is actually good. (imo at least)

i don't - based on descriptions of what the defaults are that i've heard - it sounds awful, and it doesn't even need to be that cumbersome. either way, i expect the user to be competent enough to use the features available to them to customize how the game handles for them.

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9 часов назад, Slenderous1ButBetter сказал:

make it a fun weapon instead where you can just zoom across the plains of eidolon on a badass chainsaw.

yeah i got it long ago that this community can't suggest anything useful but only "for memes" garbage
btw archwing exists and it will be superior compared to your crappy saw

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Full disclosure, I didn't read most people's comments on this thread so what I say might end up echoing a number of them. I hope not. These are my personal thoughts. 

The weapon looks fantastic. For the most part, I really like how all the animations look, and some are particularly fun to watch. I've put 3 forma in, to the point where the damage seems adequate. While I won't complain about incoming buffs to the damage, I don't think they were necessary. 

There are two main places where I think this weapon falls short: A disconnect between visual impact and actual effect, and then a sort of Clumsiness using the combos. The first point, I want to pin almost entirely on the various slams in the Butcher's Revelry stance. The midair slams -- both regular and Heavy -- are cool, I think. Most melees keep it simple and don't do anything beyond the slam, but it's refreshing to see the Ghoulsaw perform an extra follow-up slash. My problem with the slams is this (and I believe this about pretty much every slam that the Ghoulsaw can perform): They strike a wide area and then do next to zero damage. This doesn't include the follow-up slashes, mind you. Those hit about as hard as I would expect. I could accept it if enemies caught at the edge of the slam were launched into the air without getting hit too hard, but it seems like even baddies near the center of the impact get what amounts to a tickle. 

I'll go through the combos one by one, since the relevance of my two issues varies between them. 

Rictus' Wrath (Basic combo) :

Spoiler

Technically, I don't have any issue with this combo. I understand on some level that the Ghoulsaw's supposed to be a heavy weapon, and it's far from an elegant one. With that said I do wish this was the Forward combo instead -- the sweeping motions seem more practical for running straight ahead like the chainsaw maniacs we're all destined to be. This combo doesn't seem ideal to use when there's only one enemy standing in front, which ties into clumsiness a bit. 

Ghoul Rush (Forward combo) :

Spoiler

There's a pleasant simplicity in this attack. Indeed, if I was strong enough to wield a giant rotating saw, I would probably just hold it up in front of me just like this. But it's awkward/clumsy to use. I see two outcomes using this combo: you run into an enemy and they die on contact, or you dink against their armor and then shuffle past them. If they die, awesome. If they don't, then you kind of just have to spin your camera around to hit them some more, or shift to using another combo instead so you don't just keep running past the enemy. 

Basically I think the required button input makes the player run past enemies too much. In my opinion this attack would be better used as the Basic combo, when you want to hit an enemy directly in front of you without moving away. 

And this is just food for thought, but I think it would be amazing if we could just Hold Down the Melee button to use this attack continuously. Something along the lines of the Quatz pistol, or Quartakk(?) rifle -- those guns shoot semi-auto while aiming, but if you begin firing from the hip and then zoom in while shooting, they remain full-auto while aiming. If a similar idea was applied to the Ghoulsaw, where we could just raise it in front by holding E, then use whatever movement key we'd like while continuing to hold E, it'd be hecking neat. Maybe. 

Rip 'n Ride (Forward Block combo) :

Spoiler

This combo is a pleasure to watch. For anyone who cares to read, you can ride the saw, dodge roll to cancel the animation, and go into another ride. I understand depending on the person, it might be disappointing that it's not continuous, but I'm personally alright with it.

This here combo has one of the slams that affect an excruciatingly small area. I'd say this is the worst offender, as the full body twist animation leads me to believe it's a particularly powerful impact. 

Additionally, I feel like there's a really long delay before the player can proceed with the next combo after performing the slam. 

Reciprocator (Block combo)

Spoiler

For me this is the most fun combo to see. It nails the visual appeal, well and truly. It is a bit slow perhaps, and even though there's only two attacks in the combo, each takes a relatively long time to perform. My complaint of course lies with the ending slam feeling inconsequential again. It doesn't look as strong as the Rip 'n Ride combo's, but the weak reaction from enemies betrays expectation nonetheless. 

What else... I suppose the heavy attack is fine, but I wonder if maybe the player's feet should have free movement while using the grinder-ish heavy attack. The Ghoulsaw is a decent weapon overall, but I'd like to see it refined a bit more or flow better between combos. Looking forward to seeing how the damage buffs affect the weapon's usability, but most of all I'm really hoping for consideration towards switching the inputs for Rictus' Wrath and Ghoul Rush. 

Thanks much for reading, I hope my feedback can offer some insight to not just the devs, but other players as well. 😄

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I think modifying the stance is by far the best solution to the Ghoulsaw's current issue. I actually like the slowness of the weapon, but the fairest, and frankly the best way to make the weapon fun is if its slow speed was compensated by large multipliers, like Hammers and Heavy Blades have.

I decided to compare a best case between Ghoulsaw and everything else in the Mastery 7 bracket. Mastery rank is the greatest indicator of a weapon's effectiveness/tier, and I was personally curious if Ghoulsaw actually fit in with its rank (7 is less than MR15, so it would make sense if it wasn't an incredibly strong melee but was secretly balanced at its rank.)

You can view my spreadsheet here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bRPDnAfrtzip3MrKMuL1-MMwS3LysF3tmwTOaBTKQ2Q/edit?usp=sharing

The comparison builds are using armor reduction and slash to best counter a Lvl 100 Heavy Gunner, which possesses 6441 armor. Health modifiers are not accounted for.

Result:

  • Old Ghoulsaw is at the bottom.
    • Literally the worst weapon to ever touch Mastery 7.
  • Current Ghoulsaw using the changes.
    • Its damage has risen by ~44%, but it remains in the bottom half of the bracket. This is still insufficient. As other users have noted, this weapon is not only cripplingly slow, but it still has the lowest non-slash damage of all Mastery 7 Melees. Its only excuse is against high armor, but it doesn't stand a chance against the other options. Even a full 1.50 disposition will not save this.
  • Proposal: Doubling Again. 2x Current Ghoulsaw is where the weapon would place if its modifiers were literally doubled from what they are now.
    • This brings the weapon to the upper plateau in its bracket as a relatively viable weapon against armor.
    • Raw damage still lowest in upper half, Slash proc damage is barely the highest in the bracket. A proper specialty. Proc rate is lowest of the entire bracket due to the appalling attack speed, and this translates into poor group coverage/s, despite the wide arcing moveset which makes use of the perfect 1.0 followthru.

Thanks for reading, and feel free to comment on the builds and I'll recalculate them.

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This is nice, but it also needs stat increases. It’s attack speed it too slow for how little damage it can do because of its poor crit chance/crit damage. The range is also appalling. The Ghoul Rush needs to be changed to a continuous hold instead of mashing while walking forward, and should be held at an angle. That combo is awkward, clunky, and has an extremely narrow attack arch in front of you.

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18 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

This means that as you’re engaging with Combos for all things Ghoulsaw, you’ll be dealing more and more damage. We wanted to increase the lethality of all things Ghoulsaw after reading player feedback, and felt the Combos themselves were the best place to buff a big batch of numbers to encourage use of the full gamut of moves!  This also makes it so well into the future, other weapons in this class that share the Stance would have this baseline power. 

Expect this series of Combo buffs in an Upcoming hotfix! 
 

So what ur saying is don't invest in the ghoulsaw but wait for more powerful weapons in the category, got it.

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Le 15/09/2021 à 18:16, Raylo555 a dit :

still no continuous rideability though... 💔

IF we could equip it in the Kdrive slot that would be nice but as a weapon combo i'm not sure it's a good idea since anyway you can't control direction.

 

EDT: nvm just took it out of the foundry for a little spin and you can control direction thought you could only go straight ahead, ( you know how they love the forced forward move ), but still a continuous riding would make more sense as a k drive than as a weapon since Yareli introduced us to Indoor Kdriving madness just make a set of K drive attack for the ghoulsaw .... or don't i don't care, this weapon is only here for the lol anyway.

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40 minutes ago, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

You don't need a top tier melee weapon to do void fissures. Heck, you don't even need it for sorties or arbitrations. 

Have fun for once instead of trying to min/max everything.

Well excuse me for wanting a powerful weapon, how silly of me. I clearly don't know what fun is

/s

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6 hours ago, VhwatGoes said:

I think modifying the stance is by far the best solution to the Ghoulsaw's current issue. I actually like the slowness of the weapon, but the fairest, and frankly the best way to make the weapon fun is if its slow speed was compensated by large multipliers, like Hammers and Heavy Blades have.

I decided to compare a best case between Ghoulsaw and everything else in the Mastery 7 bracket. Mastery rank is the greatest indicator of a weapon's effectiveness/tier, and I was personally curious if Ghoulsaw actually fit in with its rank (7 is less than MR15, so it would make sense if it wasn't an incredibly strong melee but was secretly balanced at its rank.)

You can view my spreadsheet here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bRPDnAfrtzip3MrKMuL1-MMwS3LysF3tmwTOaBTKQ2Q/edit?usp=sharing

The comparison builds are using armor reduction and slash to best counter a Lvl 100 Heavy Gunner, which possesses 6441 armor. Health modifiers are not accounted for.

Result:

  • Original Ghoulsaw was second to the bottom, only because Hirudo has virtually no slash from its innate damage or stance, but Hirudo makes up for this with the highest raw damage vs unarmored. Ghoulsaw did not make up for anything, as it was the lowest in raw damage. It is a depressing state.
  • Updated Ghoulsaw using the changes at the top of this thread bring it up slightly.
    • Its damage has risen by ~30%, but it remains in the bottom half of the bracket. This is still insufficient. As other users have noted, this weapon is cripplingly slow, and that leaves the weapon with still zero strengths. Even a full 1.50 disposition will not save this.
  • Proposal 1: Doubled Original Ghoulsaw is where the weapon would place if its modifiers were literally doubled from its Original, and the Slash on the Reciprocator attack remained at 25% x Full Damage from today's update (vs 15% from original). So it's actually slightly higher than double.
    • This brings the weapon to slightly above average in its bracket, in its best possible case. This is solely thanks to the relatively high stance slash procs, and not the innate slash of the Ghoulsaw.
  • Proposal 2: Tripled Original Ghoulsaw is where the weapon would place if its raw modifiers were Triple that of the original, and the absolute amount of Slash provided by the stance was slightly above Double of the original. That is not 3 x 6, but 1 x 3 + 1 x 2.67. 
    • The Ghoulsaw would sit near the top of the bracket among a very plateaued group of melee weapons that are not nearly as specialized in slash. Its raw damage would be average, carried in this case thanks to its slash specialty, and where I believe the Ghoulsaw belongs.

Thanks for reading, and feel free to comment on the builds and I'll recalculate them.

I agree with this, more or less.

With animation cancelling, sliding and quite frankly, a little bit of forethought and positioning in order to aim attacks, the 'clumsiness' of most attacks (which I think a lot of people attribute to the fixed position and end-lag) doesn't affect the actual practicality of the weapon, and only serves to make the weapon distinct from the rest of the arsenal, which is all very 'practical' from the gamey, maximising DPS perspective. Maybe it's my subjective opinion, but the fact that most every melee weapon has almost no start-up or end-lag to attacks makes them feel extremely samey and weightless, like I'm whipping around a styrofoam copy of a melee weapon. My only real gripe with is that the forwards combo doesn't return to neutral very quickly.

Instead, making the Ghoulsaw your classic 'slow swinging and clumsy, but hard hitting' melee weapon seems like a natural fit that makes the weapon stand out from the rest of hte pack.

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20 часов назад, THeMooN85 сказал:

The second thing is that miserable ride... you couldn't make it rideable as long as we hold a specific key combination? Alternatively, extend the maximum distance three times.

Or add Reach and Primed Reach influence on max ride time...

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19 hours ago, (PSN)RAY_is_GOD said:

There's got to be a lumberjack in Canada that explain how saws work

Come on Warframe community why isn't this rated higher, cause its killing me 😂😂🤣 Aaaaahh!!.

 

Also, I'd like-

-1. Double the range of Rip n, ride

-2. The ability to manualy slam Rip n, ride on command

-3. Range increase 3.0

-4. Invincibility frames on heavy attack  

-5. Tune up Rip n, ride's movement control ( especially on pc, im om Xbox but what I've seen on youtube look like tank control's )

-6. Swap Ghoul rush with Rip n,ride. I for one think this would improve the stance and make it easier to use 

-7. Give Ghoul rush  a rev machanic, where in you tap a to rev it up. And can see a meter (which would just be the bow ui at our cursors) it decreases slowly as we stop tapping, and shouldn't be as ta heavy as it is now. Or remove the tapping all together

-8. Plz give Ghoul rush some procs, It really should feel like a melee range flamethrower ( Ignus )

Hope your listening [DE] We all want to love !unicycle 💗🙂👍   

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6 hours ago, ReddyDisco said:

Well excuse me for wanting a powerful weapon, how silly of me. I clearly don't know what fun is

/s

Taking a Glaive Prime to a star chart mission is like using a nuclear warhead to clear an ant nest. It's ridiculously overkill.

The Ghoul Saw is perfectly serviceable outside of Steel Path. It'll be refreshing to get out of your comfort zone instead of sticking with the same old stale meta builds.

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On 2021-09-15 at 6:13 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Expect this series of Combo buffs in an Upcoming hotfix! 

Some very welcome buffs, thanks for them! And while I certainly appreciate the Workshop to give us a head's up of upcoming changes, these are the kind of buffs/nerfs that I could just see dropped in a hotfix without any notice.

On a similar note, getting a few number tweaks once in a while would really help the game. For example, Inaros' augment Desiccation's Curse - buff the spawn chance to 100% (since it's still limited by max 3 shadows) and sand shadow duration to "15 x duration" instead of just "15". Easily implemented over a coffee break, while increasing the fun factor of the mod.

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