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So... I can trade, but a shouldn't because my account could be locked... nice...


Gepsal
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11 hours ago, Zimzala said:

I worked in the fraud industry for a few years.

Basically, the innocent people ALWAYS pay for teh fraudsters, that's how our society works.

The money is stolen and the rest of us pay, if not directly, then through increased prices to cover losses, etc.

Bad actors exist, that's just reality.

DE has no choice here but to remove the plat when a CC chargeback occurs, they have to roll back the entire transaction, which would include any plat, so the books don't looked cooked to an auditor, etc.

If they then reimburse the 'innocent' party, taking a hit basically for giving away plat, that would become a huge issue with bad actors gaming that system.

There is imply no way for DE to truly know if the 'innocent' party had anything to do with the fraud.

No, your 'word' as a 'good person' is just not enough, it's too easy to make up identities.

I really wish the bad actors did not exist either, but these CC chargeback types of events do have consequences that can impact truly innocent players.

Now, as many have pointed out here, there are several ways one can protect ones account, just trade smart, don't make a trade that's too good to be true, etc. and if you make a trade you are concerned about then just sit on the Plat for a while - this is exactly what banks do with 'suspect' money, they hold it until they are sure it's 'legit'.

I know reality bites, but this is not DE's issue, it's a big problem in our societies, globally.

This.  DE's actions (clawing back bad plat down the line) are necessary because of money (plat) laundering.  If they did not, it would be way too easy to just create a dummy account for the credit card fraud, buy a ton of plat, and then trade it to your real account for something totally worthless.

OP, like so many have suggested, the best way to protect yourself is to only make reasonably-priced trades, and to keep a careful record of every step of each trade (including screenshots of the chat log that led to the trade, as well as the trade itself).  If you are careful, then the odds of you getting caught up in bad plat should be slim, so just enjoy the game!

Edited by MqToasty
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That is how it is , yes,

Its not ideal or even fair to the innocent traders but that is the way it is,

They really need a better system but i assume they don't want to cause it will be inconvenient for their sales.

 

That being said , Haven't really had a bad plat experience since i have been playing (or i didnt notice) ,

but i tend to avoid the more expensive sales which usually carry the highest risk.

Stick to the mid to low range (sub 300p) and its less likely to happen,

if you are going to sell stuff for like 1K plat in a single trade (especially to suspicious accounts), i would definitely advise to take screenshots for future reference.

Safest bet is to keep a plat buffer equal to your traded value for a a week or two.

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20 hours ago, LillyRaccune said:

I could be wrong, but I hope I'm not! 🤔

 Hi again Lilly 🖖

No, DE will keep your account locked until you cough up money. That's what I've seen lately, they do this to new players as well, you're not a Player, until you open your wallet and even then, they are still happy to get rid of you, as they got money in the end.

This is the way it is and they will go on to get away with it, while I don't give a damm if it's "society works", no one should be held accountable for a wrong doing, nor should they be put up at gun point and forced to pay for something in order to return what was theirs, this is  an strange outlook on it that I have, I'm sure some will agree.

Edit: I might have a bit of a Naive outlook on life, but that's just me!.

@Gepsal Feel free to leave the game if you so wish, it's you call in the end!

Edited by Circle_of_Psi
Added more details & Fixed Errors
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4 minutes ago, (XBOX)TyeGoo said:

That sounds disgusting.

But it's good DE still gets pat on the back for removing this kubrow fur rerolling thing amirite? 😋

Hah, I remaber that, if it wasn't for the back lash that lockboxs had in the past, you damm know right, DE had kept this in.

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4 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

DE has the ability to track and remove bad plat even if it has been traded. This leads me to believe they should have the ability to remove anything purchased with that bad plat. They are pretty much punishing the victims and making to make a buck. IMO it's shady as hell because it's within their powers to protect traders that have done nothing wrong.

Please tell me:
How can DE roll back forma, especially for lich/sister weapon?
How can DE roll back a booster? (especially since some boosters can affect squads, or for example you got a double drop rate booster and used it to get rare mats for a weapon and built/started research for it, they can't just take away the resources since they were used already)
How can DE roll back used relics from relic packs? (especially since this affects everyone you are running a mission with)

 

Simple fact is this: If you contact support they can and will work with you to revert what they can (syandana, skins, other cosmetics, etc.) but they can't revert some things once they are used.  And its mostly those "used" things that can keep your account in the negative and you have to pay back to zero.

 

Basically its: "You bought X boosters and Relic Packs and forma and used all of them....we can't 'Take it back' and now you owe us Y for all those boosters and relic packs and forma you used, we just want you to pay us for what you used."

2 hours ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

No, DE will keep your account locked until you cough up money. That's what I've seen lately, they do this to new players as well, you're not a Player, until you open your wallet and even then, they are still happy to get rid of you, as they got money in the end.

Except that that is not the case.
DE will happily work with you to revert what they can.

In fact if you trade a riven for bad plat DE will commonly give you the riven back if you contact support.
They will also help you out of the negative plat by removing -what they can- from your account that you purchased with the bad plat.

They can't remove everything (mainly just the stuff you can 'use' up) but I do have friends who were caught with negative plat and DE was able to revert the skin purchases that they had made and they were back in the positive plat, further they got the prime parts they traded away back.

15 hours ago, LillyRaccune said:

^^This. I think the chances of getting plat that players defaulted on or cheated/fake platinum in a trade is more of a risk for ridiculous amounts like in this situation.

Also, as far as I know, you can appeal penalties by submitting requests at http://support.warframe.com/. I think if you ask they should reimburse you, if they don't reimburse your plat they should at least reimburse the items/rivens you traded.

I could be wrong, but I hope I'm not! 🤔

They can, have, and should continue to reimburse you for what you traded to the account for the bad plat.
You trade an expensive riven for bad plat?  DE will give you the riven back if you contact support.
It has happened before, and I haven't seen anything that indicates a change from that.

 

Further if you are in negative plat due to cosmetics and the like being bought DE can work with you to remove those cosmetics and get you back in the positives....as long as those cosmetics were bought with the "bad plat".

Edited by Tsukinoki
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6 hours ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

This is the way it is and they will go on to get away with it, I don't give a damm if it's "society works", no one should be held accountable for a wrong doing, nor should they be put up at gun point and forced to pay for something in order to return what was theirs, an strange outlook on it, I'm sure some will agree.

Well, when you become king of the world and you can make all the humans of the planet dance to your singular tune, get back to us on how to solve a problem that costs society billions in lost revenue per year that thousands of quite brilliant minds invent Patents to try and fight.

You can rail against the world all you like, if it gives you pleasure, rock on.

You are acting like there is a magic fix that simply does not exist.

If you had that magic fix, you could become the one of the richest humans on the planet.

Edited by Zimzala
words are hard
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3 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

Please tell me:
How can DE roll back forma, especially for lich/sister weapon?
How can DE roll back a booster? (especially since some boosters can affect squads, or for example you got a double drop rate booster and used it to get rare mats for a weapon and built/started research for it, they can't just take away the resources since they were used already)
How can DE roll back used relics from relic packs? (especially since this affects everyone you are running a mission with)

 

Simple fact is this: If you contact support they can and will work with you to revert what they can (syandana, skins, other cosmetics, etc.) but they can't revert some things once they are used.  And its mostly those "used" things that can keep your account in the negative and you have to pay back to zero.

 

Basically its: "You bought X boosters and Relic Packs and forma and used all of them....we can't 'Take it back' and now you owe us Y for all those boosters and relic packs and forma you used, we just want you to pay us for what you used."

Except that that is not the case.
DE will happily work with you to revert what they can.

In fact if you trade a riven for bad plat DE will commonly give you the riven back if you contact support.
They will also help you out of the negative plat by removing -what they can- from your account that you purchased with the bad plat.

They can't remove everything (mainly just the stuff you can 'use' up) but I do have friends who were caught with negative plat and DE was able to revert the skin purchases that they had made and they were back in the positive plat, further they got the prime parts they traded away back.

They can, have, and should continue to reimburse you for what you traded to the account for the bad plat.
You trade an expensive riven for bad plat?  DE will give you the riven back if you contact support.
It has happened before, and I haven't seen anything that indicates a change from that.

 

Further if you are in negative plat due to cosmetics and the like being bought DE can work with you to remove those cosmetics and get you back in the positives....as long as those cosmetics were bought with the "bad plat".

Account roll backs are a thing. I've had them happen in several games. Sometimes at my request and sometimes the company had to roll back everyone's accounts. 

If DE wanted to they could set any account that took part in a trade involving bad plat to a point before that trade. 

It wouldn't be a great situation but it would be preferable over getting your account closed until you paid real world money for someone else's mistake. 

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People who traded lots of itemss have very likely bad plat on them. I don't think DE look at transactions that seem fair. You have been probably caught because you use a non meta trading method and are likely making trades that are completly bs in terms of value.

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3 hours ago, Zimzala said:

Well, when you become king of the world and you can make all the humans of the planet dance to your singular tune, get back to us on how to solve a problem that costs society billions in lost revenue per year that thousands of quite brilliant minds invent Patents to try and fight.

You can rail against the world all you like, if it gives you pleasure, rock on.

You are acting like there is a magic fix that simply does not exist.

If you had that magic fix, you could become the one of the richest humans on the planet.

I know, like I said, a little naive of me to have this mindset, but I guess it's just the way I see certain parts of life, I do agree with you of course and hah if I did have a magic fix, I'd solve more then just money, just sayin!. 🤣

 

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vor 21 Stunden schrieb Gepsal:

My account is ok, btw, but this particular problem makes me want to avoid this game...

Could someone clarify?...

the last offizial statement i got is as long as the trades seams reasonable there should be no problem but if you want to make sure screenshot every trade that could be considered fishy
so if you trade in like 10k platin for a riven that most likly fishy but having some trades for mods and blueprints wich are mostly low price items in many trades it should be fine
as an addition you could trade in small amounts first and build up a puffer for anything that could happen so if something is happening you most likely dont go to the negavtie plat level

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5 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

Except that that is not the case.
DE will happily work with you to revert what they can.

With what I've seen with the posts and meny reports on other places, this ISN'T the case, I don't know about you or your friends, but if they where Founders (or threw money and alot of it) in the game, then of course they'll be happy to work with you, cuz you are a PAYING person, not a "freeloader".

Money makes people happy, it makes the world go around and "it turns good into evil" (why is saying that a thing?)

 

I see your point, but I can't agree with a person who happily spent tons of cash and yes, I have spent a little bit of money myself, when the game was great and had a good healthy relationship with it's fanbase, but now I regret every penny I spent, will I get it back?, No, afraid not, if I chuold I'd be over the moon to.  

 

But we're all human, we all make mistakes.

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58 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

Account roll backs are a thing. I've had them happen in several games. Sometimes at my request and sometimes the company had to roll back everyone's accounts. 

If DE wanted to they could set any account that took part in a trade involving bad plat to a point before that trade. 

It wouldn't be a great situation but it would be preferable over getting your account closed until you paid real world money for someone else's mistake. 

Account roll backs are a thing, sure.....but how exactly do you do that when the accounts impact clans or other accounts?

 

Take the example of the clan research.
Say you bought a double drop rate booster (not double resource booster) which affects the squad you are in not just you.
You went grinding for mutagen samples or whatever and played in multiple squads with people both in your clan and not in your clan.
How many of those accounts get rolled back when they roll back the booster that was used?  Or do they just get a "free" benefit even though the booster was rolled back.
What happens if you managed to say finish the hema research and a few people copy the BP....what gets rolled back, just your account or the clans research?  What about the people who used the hema that they got from the clan research that is potentially rolled back?

Or for example you buy multiple forma using the "bad plat" and use those forma in building rooms in the dojo.
What happens when your account is rolled back?
I mean the forma was still bought and used, and DE should get compensation for the used items....unless you're saying that the clan should just get a freebie "just cause".

 

That is why DE removes what they can (cosmetics) and asks you to pay for what you used: Things start to spiral and start to impact a large number of other accounts, clans, and who knows what else.
Some things aren't so easy to just "roll back" with how it impacts other people and clans.  And with how sticky it can get and how people can argue or fight one way or the other which is "Fair" or "right" for DE to do they decided to just go "We will work with you to refund cosmetics and similar items bought with 'bad plat' for boosters forma relics and everything else you are on the hook for in order to not impact tertiary accounts/clans that had interactions with you"

Its the same reaon why when DE offered limited time account resets when CBT was ending they added the caveat "Only if you haven't donated anything to any clan related project/room" because they can't cleanly roll back those transactions without affecting a large number of players.

2 minutes ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

With what I've seen with the posts and meny reports on other places, this ISN'T the case, I don't know about you or your friends, but if they where Founders (or threw money and alot of it) in the game, then of course they'll be happy to work with you, cuz you are a PAYING person, not a "freeloader".

Most of my friends are not founders.
Most of them have spent very little (if any) of their own money on this game, instead using trading to get their plat which is why they've been involved in situations with "bad plat".

They found that if they actually contacted support about the negative balance then support will work with them to get the issue resolved.

Meanwhile a lot of the rants/complaints/crying you see is from someone who never tried working with support: they saw the message and threw a fit and yelled on social media platforms about it instead of contacting support to see what could be done about it.
Basically the people who yell rant and complain about being banned due to negative plat are not likely to be the people that message support and see what parts can be reworked to get their plat balance back out of the negatives (at least as far as they can)

7 minutes ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

I see your point, but I can't agree with a person who happily spent tons of cash and yes, I have spent a little bit of money myself, when the game was great and had a good healthy relationship with it's fanbase, but now I regret every penny I spent, will I get it back?, No, afraid not, if I chuold I'd be over the moon to.  

How much money I've spent is completely besides the point.
You don't know what (if any) purchases I've made outside of founders.

 

And I know from previous posts and topics by you that you don't like the game anymore...so why stick around?  Only to give advice to people of "Just leave this game..." and doom and gloom?

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17 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

Account roll backs are a thing, sure.....but how exactly do you do that when the accounts impact clans or other accounts?

 

Take the example of the clan research.
Say you bought a double drop rate booster (not double resource booster) which affects the squad you are in not just you.
You went grinding for mutagen samples or whatever and played in multiple squads with people both in your clan and not in your clan.
How many of those accounts get rolled back when they roll back the booster that was used?  Or do they just get a "free" benefit even though the booster was rolled back.
What happens if you managed to say finish the hema research and a few people copy the BP....what gets rolled back, just your account or the clans research?  What about the people who used the hema that they got from the clan research that is potentially rolled back?

Or for example you buy multiple forma using the "bad plat" and use those forma in building rooms in the dojo.
What happens when your account is rolled back?
I mean the forma was still bought and used, and DE should get compensation for the used items....unless you're saying that the clan should just get a freebie "just cause".

 

That is why DE removes what they can (cosmetics) and asks you to pay for what you used: Things start to spiral and start to impact a large number of other accounts, clans, and who knows what else.
Some things aren't so easy to just "roll back" with how it impacts other people and clans.  And with how sticky it can get and how people can argue or fight one way or the other which is "Fair" or "right" for DE to do they decided to just go "We will work with you to refund cosmetics and similar items bought with 'bad plat' for boosters forma relics and everything else you are on the hook for in order to not impact tertiary accounts/clans that had interactions with you"

Its the same reaon why when DE offered limited time account resets when CBT was ending they added the caveat "Only if you haven't donated anything to any clan related project/room" because they can't cleanly roll back those transactions without affecting a large number of players.

The thing is when DE sells plat they are essentially printing money. Same thing when they sell boosters or forma. No actual product was produced and it cost DE nothing to sell these things for real world currency. They are not taking a financial loss when someone cancels a credit card payment they are breaking even. 

Same thing with any potential resource gain from boosters. Who cares if some clan got some extra resources or forma, they didn't actually make any physical or monetary gains, they were victims of a bad situation they had no control over. DE lost nothing but they want to collect money from people that didn't make a monetary transaction.

The victim is the one being punished. It's pure greed, DE lost a potential sale and passes the transaction down the line to anyone involved. 

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50 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

The thing is when DE sells plat they are essentially printing money. Same thing when they sell boosters or forma. No actual product was produced and it cost DE nothing to sell these things for real world currency. They are not taking a financial loss when someone cancels a credit card payment they are breaking even. 

Same thing with any potential resource gain from boosters. Who cares if some clan got some extra resources or forma, they didn't actually make any physical or monetary gains, they were victims of a bad situation they had no control over. DE lost nothing but they want to collect money from people that didn't make a monetary transaction.

The victim is the one being punished. It's pure greed, DE lost a potential sale and passes the transaction down the line to anyone involved. 

This is an uninformed, emotional response filled with almost entirely incorrect statements.

You obviously know nothing about running a business, virtual or otherwise, how accounting works, how laws about fraud work, I could go on...

You don't even understand that DE will and Does work with the scammed player as best they can after DE and said player have both been scammed, you are running off of Internet hearsay and anti-corporate FUD, from my point of view.

So please, to those reading this thread, do your own homework, don't just believe the emotional responses that promote continued willful ignorance about the world.

Edited by Zimzala
words are hard
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23 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

The thing is when DE sells plat they are essentially printing money. Same thing when they sell boosters or forma. No actual product was produced and it cost DE nothing to sell these things for real world currency. They are not taking a financial loss when someone cancels a credit card payment they are breaking even. 

Not true.  You are focusing on how the generation of an additional plat has a Variable Cost of essentially 0, but ignoring the Fixed Cost of developing and maintaining the game.  While the business model and economy of digital games are no longer simple money-for-goods trades like we still have with most physical goods, they still have intrinsic value, just harder to quantify objectively.

In aggregate, chargebacks do cost DE money because they need to hire people to deal with the ugly aftermath.  The more it happens, the more staff they need to hire to handle them.  Even moreso, if word gets out that DE just doesn't care or is unable to claw it back and a consistent money laundering loophole develops, you can bet there will be a cottage industry of people selling "discounted plat", which is paid off with stolen credit cards.  Already seen this in another game, and it wasn't pretty until the devs finally started throwing down the ban hammer on accounts buying the black market currency.

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No one is saying there isn't a cost to develop and maintain the game. But Warframe is a free to play game. If DE wanted to get paid for developing and maintaining their game, they should have implemented a subscribtion model.

Instead we have this awful situation, where DE is pushing the cost of returning bad plat on players who unknowingly traded with it. And it is doublethink to put the responsability on every player, when DE knows we can't possibly have the tools or ressources to check out every player we trade with. If it's really so suspicous to trade with a player named 205730281 then why is DE letting them play to begin with? Ridiculous stance to have.

There is a much better solution to this situation than the one DE implemented.
Just refund the items that was bought with bad plat, and accept that you're not gonna refund stuff like boosters so be graceful instead and let the boosters go for free. This way you aren't creating a bad experience for players who are innocent.

These situations are supposedly rare anyways right? What could that possibly cost the company? It's digital goods, my brother, just go change some 1's and 0's in the data base. You were gonna do that anyways to fix the bad plat player.

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15 minutes ago, Sazero said:

These situations are supposedly rare anyways right? What could that possibly cost the company? It's digital goods, my brother, just go change some 1's and 0's in the data base. You were gonna do that anyways to fix the bad plat player.

So, just because someone robs you occasionally, it's OK to just give away some of your product?

Would you be OK with just getting robbed 'occasionally' and look the other way?

What you suggest would create more issues, not solve any.

And your solution is to tell DE 'you should have made it a subscription model' just because you think that's better, when similar things happen to subscription games? Plenty of CC fraud there that impact the 'innocent' players.

Just wow.

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11 hours ago, Sazero said:

If DE wanted to get paid for developing and maintaining their game, they should have implemented a subscribtion model.

You do realise that when the game first came out, DE were on the verge of bankruptcy, right? The first publically available release was basically just a proof of concept that they'd scrabbled together in a year. If the game had been subscription based back then, it likely wouldn't exist today, and if it switched to such a model while people were playing, it would likely have resulted in a mass-exodus of players.

Also, "Free to play" doesn't mean that the devs don't want to be paid for their work, and the fact that you think it does reeks of either entitlement or naivety (I shall let you decide which you prefer).

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Ehmm... first of all, thank you all for your answers, since there is not a real solution or way to avoid this problem completely I've decided just to take screenshots of my trades and hold the plat for like 1 or 2 weeks to keep my account safe.

I made another post yesterday (my last post); because I saw this got a lot of attention and wanted to continue reading your points of view, but got locked by a moderator... don't know why exactly... maybe they like to ignore certain things... anyway thank you and hope this whole situation changes in the future, so innocent people don't pay for the mistakes of others.

RNG god shall be by your side!

Bye :v/

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20 hours ago, Sazero said:

Instead we have this awful situation, where DE is pushing the cost of returning bad plat on players who unknowingly traded with it. And it is doublethink to put the responsability on every player, when DE knows we can't possibly have the tools or ressources to check out every player we trade with. If it's really so suspicous to trade with a player named 205730281 then why is DE letting them play to begin with? Ridiculous stance to have.

This sums up my feeling pretty well. I don't think players who've done nothing wrong should have their account held hostage until they pay for someone else's plat. DE loses revenue from charge back but nothing else. Pushing the cost to some random person makes no sense no matter how hard some people are justifying. Especially the ones who are saying "that's just how fraud works". It's not.

Edited by Skaleek
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19 hours ago, Zimzala said:

Plenty of CC fraud there that impact the 'innocent' players.

Banks take the hit, not the individual victims. The issuer of currency takes the hit. In this case the issuer is DE. You are misinformed. DE is not operating like credit cards do. Not at all.

Edited by Skaleek
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41 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

Banks take the hit, not the individual victims. The issuer of currency takes the hit. In this case the issuer is DE. You are misinformed. DE is not operating like credit cards do. Not at all.

No, DE takes a hit. No way around that.

We, the consumers, pay for this with increased fees.

The bank does not just give DE the money the scammer tried to use with the credit card, DE has to give that money back to the bank.

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27 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

No, DE takes a hit. No way around that.

We, the consumers, pay for this with increased fees.

The bank does not just give DE the money the scammer tried to use with the credit card, DE has to give that money back to the bank

Indeed this feels more accurate, but then are you equating increased fees to holding victims accounts locked till they shell out cash?

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