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How about toning down critical?


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With what I heard about how critical focused weapons able to deal more damage, and how easy to increase your critical damage to deal insane amount of damage (up to 8.4x with soma prime using vital sense and hammer shot), maybe you guys would like it if critical damage is made far lower to make it not too far outperforming pure damage/status weapons

For the mods, you have 3 possible mods on primary for example
- Vital sense (+120% critical damage)
- Hammer shot (+60% critical damage, +80% status chance)
- Bladed rounds (+120% critical damage when aiming after a kill for 9 seconds)

To make critical damage not seeing too high of increase, some changes I've been thinking
- Make all of them not available for stacking
- Reduced vital sense increase (120% -> 60%)
- Reduced hammer shot increase (60% -> 40%)
- Reduced bladed rounds increase (120% -> 80%)

OR

Change them to be additive instead
- Vital sense (+0.4x)
- Hammer shot (+0.3x)
- Bladed Rounds (+0.5x)

Then, for base critical damage itself, all weapons will get lower base from 1.25x - 1.4x, making them still able to deal more damage but not at such a huge margin that it makes non critical weapons left far behind

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Why would you nerf every weapon? Because you heard it? Look. I do understand you want challenge on Warframe but this game received a recent balance pass that has created a fair balance with all weapons and enemies. You can keep your nerds for yourself.

 

 

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47 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

With what I heard about how critical focused weapons able to deal more damage, and how easy to increase your critical damage to deal insane amount of damage (up to 8.4x with soma prime using vital sense and hammer shot), maybe you guys would like it if critical damage is made far lower to make it not too far outperforming pure damage/status weapons

For the mods, you have 3 possible mods on primary for example
- Vital sense (+120% critical damage)
- Hammer shot (+60% critical damage, +80% status chance)
- Bladed rounds (+120% critical damage when aiming after a kill for 9 seconds)

To make critical damage not seeing too high of increase, some changes I've been thinking
- Make all of them not available for stacking
- Reduced vital sense increase (120% -> 60%)
- Reduced hammer shot increase (60% -> 40%)
- Reduced bladed rounds increase (120% -> 80%)

OR

Change them to be additive instead
- Vital sense (+0.4x)
- Hammer shot (+0.3x)
- Bladed Rounds (+0.5x)

Then, for base critical damage itself, all weapons will get lower base from 1.25x - 1.4x, making them still able to deal more damage but not at such a huge margin that it makes non critical weapons left far behind

Wow, what an awful idea. Even your suggestions are so poorly thought out. Wow.

 

Okay sorry, let’s try to be a little fair here, maybe you’ve never designed anything in your entire life. So I’ll give you one tip for free. If something isn’t that bad, as in, if you didn’t change it, nothing bad would happen, a nerf of -50% is ridiculous.

Done.

Edited by _R_o_g_u_e_
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Crit is over hyped. It's strong, but it isn't magic.

Take an above average crit weapon with Base crit chance of 30% and multiplier of 2.0x.

1*0.7+2*0.3=1.3

Add Vital Sense and Point Strike.

Crit chance of 75% and Crit multiplier of 4.4x.

1*0.25+4.4*0.75=3.55

Damage increase factor:

3.55/1.3=2.73

2 mod slots for a 2.73x damage increase or +173% damage which is in line with other multipliers.

+180% is two 90% 2 elements taking up 2 slots discounting resistances.

Viral grants +100% damage on first proc and +325% on 10th.

Crit isn't magic, it's just another multiplier that's multiplicative with other multipliers which is why hybrids are king.

At sortie levels, armor gives over 20x ehp and back when Corrosive could fully strip armor, it effectively let you deal 20x damage, Pure Crit weapons were just cute in comparison.

Edited by DealerOfAbsolutes
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The only problem crit has in the current implementation is that it benefits high-crit weapons more than low-crit weapons. All other major stats scale the same regardless of weapon, IE a Serration and Heavy Caliber is always a 4.3x damage multiplier no matter what you put them on. That's not the case with crit mods, where the base crit stats of the weapon affect how much the mods actually benefit. Vital Sense and Point Strike is a 3.59x damage multiplier on the Rubico Prime, but only a 1.33x damage multiplier on the Burston. That means that the Rubico Prime benefits 2.69x more from the same mods. Crit weapons benefit far more from crit mods, letting them achieve higher build multipliers, and good weapons with good hybrid stats can also proc status, letting them benefit from both sides without any issue.

Making crit stats additive would, for the most part, normalize this. If Point Strike was an additive +75% Crit Chance, and Vital Sense was an additive +2.5x Crit Damage, then most weapons would have about a 3.6x damage multiplier when using them together. A weapon with 0% base Crit Chance and 1x base Crit Multiplier would see a 2.88x damage multiplier, and a weapon with 50% base Crit Chance and 3.0x base Crit Multiplier would see a 3.31x damage multiplier. Our Rubico would get a ~3.46x damage multiplier and need a teensy buff to get back to ~3.6x, while our Burston would get a 3.32x damage multiplier. Now the Rubico Prime only gets about 1.08x more power from the same mods.

This doesn't address player power being so high, but that's better addressed by limiting the number of damage mods than just nerfing them. Nerfing crit mods, or damage mods, or whatever just means that people swap them out for the next best thing. We end up in the same place we were before but now with a lot of people angry about their things being touched.

Edited by PublikDomain
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Isn't most of Crit's power from that weird interaction/calculation it has with armor that makes crits better against armor?

I could have sworn I read somewhere on these forums that was the case, but someone can correct me if I'm remembering wrong

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10 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Isn't most of Crit's power from that weird interaction/calculation it has with armor that makes crits better against armor?

I could have sworn I read somewhere on these forums that was the case, but someone can correct me if I'm remembering wrong

It's not Armor , it's specific types of DR that are not applied when you score a crit. Some bosses and unique enemies have it 

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4 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You make a lot of posts about nerfing the game. You're better off just finding a more boring game since you can't handle freedom and power lol. 

Why would DE release a slew of OP weapons, the helminth and then the invigorations on top of that? Clearly your vision and DEs doesn't align.

Blame the tenno two posts above you, I'm just mucking around with their inability to handle freedom and power. Shut them for good and I stop making this

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7 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You make a lot of posts about nerfing the game. You're better off just finding a more boring game since you can't handle freedom and power lol. 

Why would DE release a slew of OP weapons, the helminth and then the invigorations on top of that? Clearly your vision and DEs doesn't align.

🤔 I have wondered why DE doesn’t just release a weapon that innately can do Steel Path at core power level. No need for damage mods or anything, just take it in and go. Maybe something available at the mastery rank people would normally get to SP with.

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30 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

The only problem crit has in the current implementation is that it benefits high-crit weapons more than low-crit weapons. All other major stats scale the same regardless of weapon, IE a Serration and Heavy Caliber is always a 4.3x damage multiplier no matter what you put them on. That's not the case with crit mods, where the base crit stats of the weapon affect how much the mods actually benefit. Vital Sense and Point Strike is a 3.59x damage multiplier on the Rubico Prime, but only a 1.33x damage multiplier on the Burston. That means that the Rubico Prime benefits 2.69x more from the same mods. Crit weapons benefit far more from crit mods, letting them achieve higher build multipliers, and good weapons with good hybrid stats can also proc status, letting them benefit from both sides without any issue.

Making crit stats additive would, for the most part, normalize this. If Point Strike was an additive +75% Crit Chance, and Vital Sense was an additive +2.5x Crit Damage, then most weapons would have about a 3.6x damage multiplier when using them together. A weapon with 0% base Crit Chance and 1x base Crit Multiplier would see a 2.88x damage multiplier, and a weapon with 50% base Crit Chance and 3.0x base Crit Multiplier would see a 3.31x damage multiplier. Our Rubico would get a ~3.46x damage multiplier and need a teensy buff to get back to ~3.6x, while our Burston would get a 3.32x damage multiplier. Now the Rubico Prime only gets about 1.08x more power from the same mods.

This doesn't address player power being so high, but that's better addressed by limiting the number of damage mods than just nerfing them. Nerfing crit mods, or damage mods, or whatever just means that people swap them out for the next best thing. We end up in the same place we were before but now with a lot of people angry about their things being touched.

Apparently you don't mind though, having your things touched. We can set the base critical damage for each weapons if DE feels worth the time. Maybe AoE weapons have the lowest base crit damage (1.25x or lower) while single target weapons having higher crit damage (up to 1.4x)

Making crit stat additive doesn't help normalizing this. If all weapons get +75% base crit chance, might as well make every weapon have 75% critical chance. Swapping? If there's only one crit increase mod allowed, that would make things lower in power from limiting the number (unless you didn't read the part of not making crit mods stack) and the mods like vital sense not being a mandatory mod for every critical focused weapons

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Still too much damage. I advise the elimination of damage from weapons wholesale. Not only that Crits should heal the enemy. This will force players to use creativity and unorthodox methods to overcoming enemies. Too many players use weapons and powers to try and just beat enemies with power, what's the point? Lets replace Impact Puncture and Slash status, with Depression, Apathy and Hopeless status. 

That way all weapons and Frames will be equal and enemies can be more relatable and thus engaging whilst also addressing power creep, since the enemies will technically never die. I mean... unless they uh... self inflict it. Unless we also land a juicy Red Crit to help heal the emotional/mental damage they have. Which means we now have meaningful choices in the game. 

There you go everyone, I fixed Warframe. 

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6 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

🤔 I have wondered why DE doesn’t just release a weapon that innately can do Steel Path at core power level. No need for damage mods or anything, just take it in and go. Maybe something available at the mastery rank people would normally get to SP with.

Lol well they have, but modding is how you get that way. This is why the bramma was adjusted. People were bragging that it was OP without forma....

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2 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Lol well they have, but modding is how you get that way. This is why the bramma was adjusted. People were bragging that it was OP without forma....

Ah yes. I don’t have the Bramma yet, so I wasn’t sure how it handled without damage increase mods (I’ve definitely heard stories though)

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8 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Ah yes. I don’t have the Bramma yet, so I wasn’t sure how it handled without damage increase mods (I’ve definitely heard stories though)

The stories really don't lie, even the current one I've only put one Forma and an Exilus Adapter into and it kind of...runs roughshod over 90% of content.

I don't even have a bunch of premium mods stuffed in it, just a standard suite of stuff you can find anywhere.

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4 minutes ago, Aldain said:

The stories really don't lie, even the current one I've only put one Forma and an Exilus Adapter into and it kind of...runs roughshod over 90% of content.

I don't even have a bunch of premium mods stuffed in it, just a standard suite of stuff you can find anywhere.

I bet. Looking forward to getting my hands on one. With some tweaks it sounds like an… explosive good time 😎.

edit: ugh. Okay, I’m out of the forums for the next until-I-can-live-with-myself cycle

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
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1 hour ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Crit is over hyped. It's strong, but it isn't magic.

Take an above average crit weapon with Base crit chance of 30% and multiplier of 2.0x.

1*0.7+2*0.3=1.3

Add Vital Sense and Point Strike.

Crit chance of 75% and Crit multiplier of 4.4x.

1*0.25+4.4*0.75=3.55

Damage increase factor:

3.55/1.3=2.73

2 mod slots for a 2.73x damage increase or +173% damage which is in line with other multipliers.

+180% is two 90% 2 elements taking up 2 slots discounting resistances.

Viral grants +100% damage on first proc and +325% on 10th.

Crit isn't magic, it's just another multiplier that's multiplicative with other multipliers which is why hybrids are king.

At sortie levels, armor gives over 20x ehp and back when Corrosive could fully strip armor, it effectively let you deal 20x damage, Pure Crit weapons were just cute in comparison.

 

which is why i stack viral and heat on pretty much everything(some variation, depending on how badly i need corrosive or heat....like deimos.) viral adds on to what ever crit i have while the heat takes care of armour.

 

this is currently stupid fun on the magnus prime, especially when that passive triggers.

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1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Apparently you don't mind though, having your things touched.

Yes, but I'm not everyone. Other people mind very much no matter how much good the touching might do. It's better to do as little touching as possible.

1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

We can set the base critical damage for each weapons if DE feels worth the time. Maybe AoE weapons have the lowest base crit damage (1.25x or lower) while single target weapons having higher crit damage (up to 1.4x)

Why, though? Changing the few crit mods and their scaling formula is a lot simpler than rebalancing every single weapon in the game.

1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Making crit stat additive doesn't help normalizing this. If all weapons get +75% base crit chance, might as well make every weapon have 75% critical chance. Swapping? If there's only one crit increase mod allowed, that would make things lower in power from limiting the number (unless you didn't read the part of not making crit mods stack) and the mods like vital sense not being a mandatory mod for every critical focused weapons

Yes, yes it does normalizes how crit scales. You're more than welcome to do the math and see for yourself. Edit: Or you could just read over the thread I started about this:

And yes, it does give every weapon the potential to reach at least 75% Crit Chance. That's kinda the idea, since high crit weapons already can. It's only weapons with low crit that can't. And you can play with the numbers some: a +50%/+2.0x rate could work too, which would give most weapons a 2.6x damage multiplier from Vital Sense and Point Strike. But that might not give crit mods enough to compete with other damage mods on low-crit weapons, and high-crit weapons would need buffs to get back to where they are now. Two mods giving a 3.6x multiplier is fine within the game's current systems, since like I pointed out Serration and Heavy Caliber is already a 4.3x multiplier. Galvanized Chamber on its own is a 3.3x multiplier. It's also fine within the scheme of the other balancing ideas I've written about. The problem with the game's balance isn't the size of the multipliers, it's how many different multipliers there are that can be stacked.

And yes, I wasn't considering making crit mods not stack in my reply, because why should they? Adding that requirement doesn't really do anything, because people just use the one that's better. Because you get bigger numbers by diversifying your stat increases, builds already tend to have only one mod of a given stat so that one mod will either stay where it is or get swapped for the better one. We've already seen exactly this with Critical Delay recently usurping Point Strike in most cases. It's the same kind of result as nerfing mods: it doesn't do anything significant to the overall meta. There are better ways to go about it.

Edited by PublikDomain
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18 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Blame the tenno two posts above you, I'm just mucking around with their inability to handle freedom and power. Shut them for good and I stop making this

🤔

Seems a bit counter-productive, if that's your goal. I don't really see how starting threads arguing in favor of the general ideas people like me have been talking about is going to convince us to stop. Like your thread arguing in favor of nerfing Slash and Viral. Uh, yeah, let's. Anyone that's not being willfully ignorant should be able to tell that Viral is over-performing compared to other status types. Likewise, anyone that's not being willfully ignorant should be able to tell that enemy Armor scaling is the real problem and not Slash. Or this thread, arguing in favor of changes that would lower player power. You're completely wrong about how to achieve it, but the sentiment is correct.

And there's not a single thing Madurai could say to convince me that the game balance isn't critically important. Let him keep blaming us "casuals" for wanting a harder game. 🙄

Edit: Though I should point out, what I brought up would be a buff to just about all weapons. And it's also pretty similar to what you yourself said in the OP about "OR Change them to be additive instead". Which makes Madurai's comment about nerfs and you then blaming me for it just a little bit weird. And I know, me advocating for buffs might seem contradictory, but being able to understand the big picture is just what happens when you stop to actually think from your armchair.

Further Edit: And, like, when you do stop and think about it, what I'm really talking about when I talk balance is, essentially, buffs! I think the game would be better if the 90% of content stuck to the bottom of the game's shoes wasn't so useless. The content on the bottom should be made stronger, and the stuff on top should stay where it is.

Option 1 is to buff weak content until its viable, but how much can they buff Accuracy to make it a viable stat to mod for? And even if they can somehow buff everything, we'd still be stuck with the boring modding system with all its flaws. And this is generally what DE keeps trying to do, which obviously always fails. Like with Galvanized mods and gun Arcanes, all those buffs do is make the stuff on top more on top, and then they have to create content to counter the stuff on top which just makes the stuff on top that much more necessary!

So Option 2 is to knock everything down to a lower value. This could be done by nerfing specific mods or stats, as in your OP, but that just makes people cry about their power being taken away. So that's not gonna work, DE can't easily touch our accumulated stuff. So instead they could address the underlying flaws with the modding system by reducing the number of multipliers being combined together, and then rebalance enemy scaling so the stuff on top is still on top. If they don't need to touch our mods, then all of our mods are still where they are and nothing there has changed, but now with the stuff on bottom has less distance to overcome to be viable. And then they can fix other issues, like crit mods scaling differently than everything else.

Edited by PublikDomain
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